OBE Skeptics.

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Originally Posted by Kromoh

Ditto. The chances of finding a face in a picture, given the number of pictures we deal with through our whole lives, are way higher than you imagine. But your particular example was just trying to see what isn't there. It doesn't take much to see three dots as two eyes and a mouth.

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There's a thread about this in the lounge, or extended discussion i think..

I came into the thread late and haven't taken the time to read it all. I'll just give a brief summary of my view on the subject.

First of all, there IS proof of the existence of lucid dreams. Scientific proof, that is. Not just hearsay and fanciful interpretation of a subjective experience.

Secondly, just like the topic of AP, I believe that the experience is real. What I don't believe is that the experience is what those who experience it think it is. I think it's a mind game that appears to be as stated by the "believers" but, I don't think it's an actual case of the mind/spirit/awareness/whatever leaving the physical location of the body.

My questions to anyone who's convinced of its "reality" are: 1) Why does it only occur during the sleeping state? 2) Why has no single person - out of the thousands who have claimed to be "good" at it - ever stood up to real scrutiny. 3) Why does every one who's ever been seriously studied claim that they "can't do it under pressure" or are "being unfairly scrutinised".

If you're unwilling to "do it" for the sake of scientific research then - to me - you're full of it and have no room to cry foul. There has never been any credible proof that OBE or AP has ever occurred (in the sense that the believers think it does). And with all of those who are so sure that they have experienced "real" AP/OBE some one would have been able to do so under controlled conditions (scientifically controlled, not some one's buddy claiming "Yeah, it really happened"). But, lo': nothing at all.

Unlike lucid dreaming, AP/OBE can easily be proven or dis-proven without the need of fancy brainwave monitoring equipment or complicated setups. And so far, all the evidence screams - not indicates, screams - that the phenomena is nothing more than an internal experience, much like those of dreams. So, anyone who claims that we just don't have the technology to prove it either way is only making lame excuses for the lack of evidence because they want so much to believe.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaught

I came into the thread late and haven't taken the time to read it all. I'll just give a brief summary of my view on the subject.

First of all, there IS proof of the existence of lucid dreams. Scientific proof, that is. Not just hearsay and fanciful interpretation of a subjective experience.

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In support of this, again:
Proof of Lucid Dreaming:
http://www.lucidity.com/SleepAndCognition.html
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Originally Posted by Kromoh

Ditto. The chances of finding a face in a picture, given the number of pictures we deal with through our whole lives, are way higher than you imagine. But your particular example was just trying to see what isn't there.

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BTW i should have mentioned this, sorry for not but it was taken on a cell phone. I figured it was probably nothing, as people tend to see things. like if you look at the clouds they can be a shape of a mountain, or a bird, or a persons face, or something when it's really just, clouds. We make it out to be something it's not. The picture is probably just a reflection.

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It doesn't take much to see three dots as two eyes and a mouth.

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It also had a human like shaped nose if you look closely. :P

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Originally Posted by Oneironaught

I came into the thread late and haven't taken the time to read it all. I'll just give a brief summary of my view on the subject.

First of all, there IS proof of the existence of lucid dreams. Scientific proof, that is. Not just hearsay and fanciful interpretation of a subjective experience.

Secondly, just like the topic of AP, I believe that the experience is real. What I don't believe is that the experience is what those who experience it think it is. I think it's a mind game that appears to be as stated by the "believers" but, I don't think it's an actual case of the mind/spirit/awareness/whatever leaving the physical location of the body.

My questions to anyone who's convinced of its "reality" are: 1) Why does it only occur during the sleeping state? 2) Why has no single person - out of the thousands who have claimed to be "good" at it - ever stood up to real scrutiny. 3) Why does every one who's ever been seriously studied claim that they "can't do it under pressure" or are "being unfairly scrutinised".

If you're unwilling to "do it" for the sake of scientific research then - to me - you're full of it and have no room to cry foul. There has never been any credible proof that OBE or AP has ever occurred (in the sense that the believers think it does). And with all of those who are so sure that they have experienced "real" AP/OBE some one would have been able to do so under controlled conditions (scientifically controlled, not some one's buddy claiming "Yeah, it really happened"). But, lo': nothing at all.

Unlike lucid dreaming, AP/OBE can easily be proven or dis-proven without the need of fancy brainwave monitoring equipment or complicated setups. And so far, all the evidence screams - not indicates, screams - that the phenomena is nothing more than an internal experience, much like those of dreams. So, anyone who claims that we just don't have the technology to prove it either way is only making lame excuses for the lack of evidence because they want so much to believe.

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OBE's can be dreams, like when you wake up from 1 you swear to god it really happened, or it felt so real. The only thing it doesn't dismiss is the OBE's that have impossible things happen. Visit family from the other side of the world and explain in detail what happened and it really comes true and that's exactly what happened. Unless of course we can once in a while dream reality without actually seeing, or hearing something physically, maybe some type of evolutionary happening that only some people have, but cannot understand it and don't know how to reproduce it again.
Something i've never really got with OBE's are how come sometimes you can not see reality? you are outside of yourself and hear a voice calling your name (a friend trying to wake you up) but you cannot see him/her. Or when the door is supposed to be here, but it's really a wall...and the door is somewhere else, like on the ceiling or someplace.

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Something i've never really got with OBE's are how come sometimes you can not see reality? you are outside of yourself and hear a voice calling your name (a friend trying to wake you up) but you cannot see him/her. Or when the door is supposed to be here, but it's really a wall...and the door is somewhere else, like on the ceiling or someplace.

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With all due respect, those are dream qualities.

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

It also had a human like shaped nose if you look closely. :P

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So does my wall.


SHIT ITS HAUNTED!


NO.-.-

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Originally Posted by Idolfan

I beleive in OBEs since I've had them... but I beleive them just to be really weird dreams and not spiritual at all. Would you class me as a skeptic?

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I'd classify you as a realist.

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Originally Posted by Jamoca

I do not believe in OBE's. I believe an OBE is just a dream which you imagine to be real.

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You see, that's the distinction that needs to be made more plainly. That's also where the misnomer "OBE" throws every one off. There is little doubt that OBE is "real". In my mind, the only question - or dispute - is exactly what OBE IS. The name tries to imply that it's a break-away condition where the mind and body separate.

I don't think the occurrence is false. I think the falsehood is the notion that it's an actual, physical mind-body separation, as opposed to a perceived separation.

And I also don't think that most people who believe they've experienced OBE are lying. I just think they are misinterpreting what they've experienced.