• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




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    1. #1
      Member Matt5678's Avatar
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      Post Blind people have OBE's

      ive discussed this on another thread but just wanted to discuss it in this forum to see what people think.

      ive read about OBE/NDE cases where blind people report being able to see in their OBE/NDE. Dr. Kenneth Ring conducted a study on this some years ago. to rule out some possible naturalistic causes he only included people who were blind from birth. so he could make sure the experience was not just a memory from when they could see. one very interesting case was from Vicki Noratuk. she reports all the normal features of an OBE/NDE. seeing her body and the doctors working on her. going through a tunnel and seeing a bright light. meeting what she identified as god and so on. the bad thing was she couldn’t identify any colors that the doctors were wearing because she had never seen any colors before. i can only imagine how amazing it must have been for someone who has never seen light before to see this unimaginably bright light as she describes it.

      i just thought this was very intriguing and wanted to share it with people


      Last edited by Matt5678; 08-04-2007 at 05:07 PM.

    2. #2
      Here, now Rainman's Avatar
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      That is indeed very interesting. Yes, it's quite logical that blind people are able to see via OBE, because most OBEs have a large amount of external imput, and you don't see through your physical eyes. I don't know why I didn't mention that before as proof of OBEs. It would be pretty hard for a group of people blind from birth to accurately describe something visually and detailed if it were a lucid dream. Because lucid dreams are internal sensory only. Blind people have never seen, therefore their brains can't remember what things look like. OBEs don't rely on internal input.

      This is interesting. Wish I would have thought about mentioning it, but glad you did nonetheless

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      Yes, it is one of the many wonders of the out-of-body experience. I can only imagine how amazing it would be to project when you've been blind your entire life...

      Robert Bruce has done some work with the blind and OBEs.

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      Member Matt5678's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rainman View Post
      That is indeed very interesting. Yes, it's quite logical that blind people are able to see via OBE, because most OBEs have a large amount of external imput, and you don't see through your physical eyes. I don't know why I didn't mention that before as proof of OBEs. It would be pretty hard for a group of people blind from birth to accurately describe something visually and detailed if it were a lucid dream. Because lucid dreams are internal sensory only. Blind people have never seen, therefore their brains can't remember what things look like. OBEs don't rely on internal input.

      This is interesting. Wish I would have thought about mentioning it, but glad you did nonetheless

      thank you. vicki Noratuk has said in an interview that in her regular dreams she doesnt see any visual impressions. only taste, touch, sound and smell.
      those must be pretty boring dreams........

    5. #5
      Problem Solver Diablo Mablo's Avatar
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      very boring dreams indeed. But since they have the sense of touch can't they figure out what things look like and kind of make a mental picture of it. Although without colour, or random colours lol.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Diablo Mablo View Post
      very boring dreams indeed. But since they have the sense of touch can't they figure out what things look like and kind of make a mental picture of it. Although without colour, or random colours lol.
      i suppose it is possible to make a mental picture with touch. but she reports never seeing any visual impressions. your saying her mental pictures finally became active with extreme detail at that moment when she crashed her car and was reported "dead"?

      not only does the being "dead" thing raise questions but id think if she could make mental pictures odds are she would have come across another visual impression before that. also there is a major difference between seeing a dark shape or a slash of random color than flying above a city seeing cars traffic, people and buildings. as she described it.

      im not trying to attack and say that its impossible that thats the case. but its questionable at best. i applaud your free thinking though

    7. #7
      Here, now Rainman's Avatar
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      Amen to that- free thinking that is...But I doubt she'd have a realistic idea of what things looked like simply by touch. Go to a weird ass warehouse full of things you've never seen, and see if you can create an image of it in your head simply by touching it. It wouldn't be very accurate, I daresay. I mean obviously you'd have somewhat of an idea what it looks like, but in a dream it wouldn't be enough to have any sort of physical appearance to you.

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      Problem Solver Diablo Mablo's Avatar
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      How did she describe them then if she's got nothing to compare those too in experience. It's really hard to believe lol
      Last edited by Diablo Mablo; 08-05-2007 at 08:30 PM. Reason: forgots a word
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      What? Because in an OBE/NDE you see things as they really are....I thought I just explained that...

      That is indeed very interesting. Yes, it's quite logical that blind people are able to see via OBE, because most OBEs have a large amount of external imput, and you don't see through your physical eyes. I don't know why I didn't mention that before as proof of OBEs. It would be pretty hard for a group of people blind from birth to accurately describe something visually and detailed if it were a lucid dream. Because lucid dreams are internal sensory only. Blind people have never seen, therefore their brains can't remember what things look like. OBEs don't rely on internal input.

    10. #10
      Problem Solver Diablo Mablo's Avatar
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      But what can you compare them to. If you've never seen anything, you've never put words to pictures. I finally read the whole article and she says she learned calculus too lol. But she fails to prove this or anything else she learned there. I do wish this was true, but nothing ever gets proven... it's always someones word we have to believe
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    11. #11
      Here, now Rainman's Avatar
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      I see what you're saying now. I believe that they simply described as best they could what they saw. Perhaps someone was able to sketch out something that was close enough to confirm that an OBE of some kind occured. Obviously a blind person would be unable to completly describe scenery because they had never seen those things before, and wouldn't have words that could describe what they saw, but they could still identify shapes and things that would be consistant to them. Remember that they can still feel things.

      Blind people aren't mentally disabled. they still know what things are. They know what something round feels like, and what something sharp feels like, therefore if they saw it, they would be able to describe what touching something like that would feel like, thus able to give a fairly accurate description of things that were in the room.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Diablo Mablo View Post
      But what can you compare them to. If you've never seen anything, you've never put words to pictures. I finally read the whole article and she says she learned calculus too lol. But she fails to prove this or anything else she learned there. I do wish this was true, but nothing ever gets proven... it's always someones word we have to believe

      That's possible if she used grail and learned letter for letter and feeling what they all are. It's hard hard hard work obviously but it's possible.

      Also just because you are blind doesn't mean she cant describe things...sure she can't see them but if she felt things and learned what they are by a teacher, then her vision she could make out what she could feel as what she see's. Blind people dont have to be blind to everything if they don't want too and you dont need to see things to figure them out aslong as you can feel and learn what they are and remember the shape.

    13. #13
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      If she is not lying, than this is very interesting even if you don't believe in OBE/NDE.
      Consider for a moment the skeptic approach that OBE/NDE are all in your mind, and there is no a spirit that leaves the body:
      If it was just her imagination, triggered by the NDE, then it shows that NDE, whatever they are, are different than lucid dreams. Because in lucid dreams blind people can't 'see'.
      This would mean that some blind people, even some who are blind from birth, still have the capacity to experience images in their minds.
      Some say that DMT causes the hallucinations during NDE. I wonder what happens when a blind person takes DMT. If it allows them to experience mental visions than it would be one hell of a trip for them.
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    14. #14
      Problem Solver Diablo Mablo's Avatar
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      Maybe lol. I've never been blind nor am I brain surgeon. I think we'll just have to wait for science to catch up with us new age folks.
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    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by dodobird View Post
      If she is not lying, than this is very interesting even if you don't believe in OBE/NDE.
      Consider for a moment the skeptic approach that OBE/NDE are all in your mind, and there is no a spirit that leaves the body:
      If it was just her imagination, triggered by the NDE, then it shows that NDE, whatever they are, are different than lucid dreams. Because in lucid dreams blind people can't 'see'.
      This would mean that some blind people, even some who are blind from birth, still have the capacity to experience images in their minds.
      Some say that DMT causes the hallucinations during NDE. I wonder what happens when a blind person takes DMT. If it allows them to experience mental visions than it would be one hell of a trip for them.

      yes that is possible that these are just mental visions. but i think you would be extremely irrational to believe with confidence that a mental vision induced by DMT could produce a view of an entire city with a birds eye view, take you into heaven. see an unimaginably bright light as she describes it and have a conversation with god, angels and dead loved ones. at our current understanding of the phenomena i don’t think anyone can really say with confidence that all of that is produced a drug leak in your brain. just my opinion :p
      Last edited by Matt5678; 08-12-2007 at 05:25 AM.

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      *claps for Matt*

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      its just odd how a lot of people who are skeptical call these dreams or hallucinations, but if you ask a person who experienced it 90% of them say with confidence they are positive it wasn’t a dream. penn and teller did a special on OBE/NDEs (i personally think it was a bad documentary) but when the NDE survivors are told by a few skeptical scientists that what they had seen was a hallucination, they just smile and say very calmly that they are positive it wasn’t. i find this very intriguing as when most people wake from a dream they can tell it wasn’t real.

    18. #18
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      Way more that 90%, Matt.

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      No way to tell untill u die.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt5678 View Post
      yes that is possible that these are just mental visions. but i think you would be extremely irrational to believe with confidence that a mental vision induced by DMT could produce a view of an entire city with a birds eye view, take you into heaven. see an unimaginably bright light as she describes it and have a conversation with god, angels and dead loved ones. at our current understanding of the phenomena i donít think anyone can really say with confidence that all of that is produced a drug leak in your brain. just my opinion :p
      If it is then let's learn what it does that does this and make it like something you buy...like a video game if you will. Put a helmet on and expierience what your body has to offer.

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      Here, now Rainman's Avatar
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      Through practicing astral projection on higher planes, one can experience a sort of "enlightenment", if you will. You start to understand the concept of death, and the idea of afterlife. It's possible to have an understanding of such things. I haven't reached that point yet, but it's said to be true by those who have done it. One day it just sort of hits you, and you understand.

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      I'll pass, i itch too badly to wanna meditate to that level.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Rainman View Post
      Through practicing astral projection on higher planes, one can experience a sort of "enlightenment", if you will. You start to understand the concept of death, and the idea of afterlife. It's possible to have an understanding of such things. I haven't reached that point yet, but it's said to be true by those who have done it. One day it just sort of hits you, and you understand.
      almost all NDE'ers say that after their experience they are no longer afraid of death at all. some describe dyeing as just taking off a coat that is your body. Some NDE’ers say our physical bodies are heavy and ugly while our spiritual bodies are free and beautiful. A lot say that this world is a very small portion of our true lives but they still stress that we should learn as much as we can in this world and live are short lives here to the fullest. its also interesting to note that some people would think that experiencing live after death would make the person more suicidal. make them want to return to where they were. but in fact its given the person a better outlook on life. most NDE'ers appear to be happier, healthier, friendlier and more optimistic. So whether these experiences are real or not at least they have made a lot of people enjoy their lives even more
      Last edited by Matt5678; 08-12-2007 at 06:58 PM.

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      Why do people say lives are short? if anything they are extremly long...we can live an average of what...65 years? that's not even close to short at all.

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      Quote Originally Posted by LucidFlanders View Post
      Why do people say lives are short? if anything they are extremly long...we can live an average of what...65 years? that's not even close to short at all.

      well 65 years is short compared with all the time that has passed before us, and all the time that will pass after were gone......
      Last edited by Matt5678; 08-13-2007 at 02:50 AM.

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