How can two incompatible things coincide?

This is in the beyond dreaming section because I figure you will hopefully have an answer.

Given what we do know, how can things of the supernatural persuasion exist? The rules we understand at this point in our knowledge would not possibly allow for impossible things to occur.

I suppose I'll leave this to spirits alone for now, how can such things exist, and manipulate, when there are rules that profoundly show that while they are in place spirits can not exist? Thermodynamics, equivalent exchange and the like. Spirits could not exist, for they defy equivalent exchange. Also, how would the existing matter be capable of reacting to a spirit? If it were possible to react, then it would not be supernatural, and it would not be a spirit. All matter broken down the their subatomic particles react in a specific way, should a spirit be able to interact with these particles, then they would no longer be considered a spirit, but again they would be considered matter. So I would like some answers as to how this is possible.


In a debate I heard a preacher say, "all religions can not be true, God and the name of Jesus Christ simply will not allow for it."

Well, for me a better quote should be,

the supernatural can not exist, current scientific understanding does not allow for it.

Anyways I am looking forward to some insightful answers, because I really wish I could understand the reasoning behind such things.

I do not believe in the supernatural. However, it seems that you already have the answer why not to automatically exclude things that may appear at first glance to be supernatural:

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Given what we do know, how can things of the supernatural persuasion exist? The rules we understand at this point in our knowledge would not possibly allow for impossible things to occur.

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If something "supernatural" is ever demonstrated, it may be explained eventually so that it is not included in that category anymore. Or not. First you have to find it.

I don't know if that is insightful or not, probably not.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

If something "supernatural" is ever demonstrated, it may be explained eventually so that it is not included in that category anymore. Or not. First you have to find it.

I don't know if that is insightful or not, probably not.

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I think you are probably correct, it is insightful, and I think the only answer anyone can give, but still the part of me that wishes I could say magic words and summon up some gold, etc, also wishes for a different answer =P hehe.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

I think you are probably correct, it is insightful, and I think the only answer anyone can give, but still the part of me that wishes I could say magic words and summon up some gold, etc, also wishes for a different answer =P hehe.

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I still want there to be ESP.

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Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I still want there to be ESP.

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U & Me Both hehe.

Isn't the "spirit" world another dimension, or realm or whatever you wanna call it? so a new set of rules (i think how it goes). We've never been out of this dimension and don't know if their are anymore others out there. I doubt we will ever know in our lifetime.

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I still want there to be ESP.

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What makes you think there isn't? isn't ESP just higher evolutionary step then we have now? like a psychic. Who knows what the future has in store for us as we keep evolving. Maybe i'll shoot laserbeams out of my eyes.:lol::boogie: Don't make me mad.:content:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Isn't the "spirit" world another dimension, or realm or whatever you wanna call it? so a new set of rules (i think how it goes). We've never been out of this dimension and don't know if their are anymore others out there. I doubt we will ever know in our lifetime.

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Well first off, if human beings have spirits, they would most likely reside in this demension before shooting of to the next one.

Secondly, when I speak of spirits, I am relating ghosts, demons, angels, etc who inhabit this world we exist in.

Oh, nevermind then. I don't believe in that hollywood crap lol. Demons most of all...i think it therefore it feels like it happens. Like dreaming, think of something before you go to bed and you will probably dream about it.

you're looking at it the wrong way. the laws of our physical world are obviously not going to dictate the non physical word. by the way virtual partials violate the law of conservation of matter.

now spirits don't usably interact much with this plain so they are not restrained by our restraints. for human spirits they stay in there domain each body connected by the mind like sheets connected by a pin through them (the mind is the only thing that can't be with out a "body")

you may get a better explanation of the laws form Thomas Campbell

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Originally Posted by U-mos

you're looking at it the wrong way. the laws of our physical world are obviously not going to dictate the non physical word. by the way virtual partials violate the law of conservation of matter.

now spirits don't usably interact much with this plain so they are not restrained by our restraints. for human spirits they stay in there domain each body connected by the mind like sheets connected by a pin through them (the mind is the only thing that can't be with out a "body")

you may get a better explanation of the laws form Thomas Campbell

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What are virtual partials?

The pin still exists in that domain however, so where is the portion of the pin that binds us?

And you don't realize what i'm saying, i'm not saying that spiritual things can't exist, I just mean they can't exist in our world, it is impossible. The matter wouldn't understand how to react to the spiritual side.

I'm not saying spirits are mandated by our world, but rather our world wouldn't be able to cope with spirits.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Given what we do know, how can things of the supernatural persuasion exist? The rules we understand at this point in our knowledge would not possibly allow for impossible things to occur.

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Because we don't know everything? Throughout history, man has always arrogantly assumed our current state of knowledge is absolute, and all new discoveries have been at first met with ridicule and contempt.

Quantum physics allows for all manner of improbable things that could be considered supernatural. It even allows for the possibility of walking through walls, it's just highly improbable.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

What are virtual partials?

The pin still exists in that domain however, so where is the portion of the pin that binds us?

And you don't realize what i'm saying, i'm not saying that spiritual things can't exist, I just mean they can't exist in our world, it is impossible. The matter wouldn't understand how to react to the spiritual side.

I'm not saying spirits are mandated by our world, but rather our world wouldn't be able to cope with spirits.

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virtual partials are something in quantum physics proven to pop in and out of existence. something or other along those lines

the pin isn't really any thing real its just the communication between them (the mind)

now for that last part i don't see what the point where your going or where you even got it. spirits don't spend any time in this plain though they can exert there will but thats another story about how things intertwine more than most people think

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Originally Posted by U-mos

now for that last part i don't see what the point where your going or where you even got it. spirits don't spend any time in this plain though they can exert there will but thats another story about how things intertwine more than most people think

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Well I really don't just mean spirits alone, I basically mean any supernatural occurrence.

I just don't see how our universe would be able to cope with such a thing entering its environment.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Well I really don't just mean spirits alone, I basically mean any supernatural occurrence.

I just don't see how our universe would be able to cope with such a thing entering its environment.

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its just energy exchange. the only question is what is the energy that dose such things. (i know who to ask to find out) i really want to read thomas campbells book

Look, I'm far from a new-ager. I don't look to crystals or magnets for medical aid, and I don't look to the stars for anything but astronomy, (which is interesting enough without a layer of mysticism added,) and I view all similar things with healthy skepticism.

However, there is a critical error being made with the use of the word "Supernatural." It implies that a phenomenon lies beyond or outside of nature. No, scratch that: it demands that such phenomenon are beyond nature, and that isn't so. The impossible is impossible, yes. That's a tautology, but how are you to presume or argue that these phenomenon are impossible? There is so much in nature that we do not understand. No unexplained phenomenon is supernatural. Nothing is supernatural. If I had ESP, it would still not be supernatural. It would simply be nature, understood in a new way. Or not understood at all, either way, it's still nature.

If ESP exists, is is because nature allows for such a thing. (Not totally implausible, by the way. Thought is largely expressed in electro-chemical current on a very small scale, and all electrical current creates waves of induction, measurable as "lines of flux," which can be picked up as radio signals, if they are emmitted and then recieved in the proper fashion.) If angels, or demons, or any such things exist, it is because nature is larger than the universe we percieve, and thus allows for such things. If there is a God, (I believe and hope there is,) then His will is nature. For a Judeo-Christian, God, anyhow.

If we can meet one another in our dreams, then it is because nature allows such things, and while I find not nearly enough evidence to suppose that we can, there is also not enough to say with any certainty that we cannot.

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Originally Posted by Sandform

Given what we do know, how can things of the supernatural persuasion exist? The rules we understand at this point in our knowledge would not possibly allow for impossible things to occur.

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And to someone living in the 1400's, a cell phone would be impossible.... It's all perspective. Perhaps 500 years from now, the fact that spirits exist and people can use magic or something will be common knowledge...

I should really clarify, I left loopholes in most of my statements that provided a way for the supernatural to be "natural." Which is the only way I could possibly assume they exist.

I wasn't saying that they don't exist, nor that they could not exist. But if it is explainable, then it is not...mystical.

I was simply looking for an answer to how something could be mystical.

I of course knew that if something supernatural were to occur, it would be studied away untill it was explainable.

I believe the universe has a set order of rules, and should the rules be defied, then the universe would not be able to cope.

Like for example...falling drops of water into a bird bath creating ripples (know that this isn't a ripple effect analogy) which are running off of each other. but then there is a spot in the water, lets just call it a circular area, which is not permitted to ripple, however it is also not permitted effect the incoming waves coming towards it, basically this means they can not bounce off as if they had hit a space there. The waves go to this point, and have no other place to go, for they are not allowed to react to this space, then there is confusion, there is no way for that to interact, and thus it would be similar to those errors that you get while writing papers on your word documents, there would be an error and it would freeze, or rather be destroyed.