Thread: Verified dreams & OBE's

Thats an interesting anecdote but couldn't it be that you placed it in the box yourself and forgot about it, then dreamed of finding it because the memory of placing it there was still in your subconscious?

Has anyone heard about that story of the woman who underwent a very advanced surgery which involved a sort of reversible death system, which rendered her brain inert during the surgery? Supposedly she had an OBE and was able to remember conversations the surgeons were having while she had zero brain activity, and identify surgical tools she couldn't have even seen.

I saw it on this random show about paranormal stuff.

I've been looking all over for the name of this case so I could do a little research on it, but I've never been able to find another person who's heard of it.

That story seems to have a major flaw in that I think once the brain dies that's it. Brain dead = death. Has ANYONE ever been brought back from that without severe brain damage?

Originally Posted by blade5x

That story seems to have a major flaw in that I think once the brain dies that's it. Brain dead = death. Has ANYONE ever been brought back from that without severe brain damage?

Even with brain damage they still havn't. Once you hit a certain amount of time still in the same state there is no reviving you no matter what. Like you said...brain death=death. There is different stages of death...clinically dead and stuff. Pam Reynolds was brain dead for an hour with an aneurism they had to remove or something and brought back with her story.

Originally Posted by MadHatter17

Thats an interesting anecdote but couldn't it be that you placed it in the box yourself and forgot about it, then dreamed of finding it because the memory of placing it there was still in your subconscious?

Has anyone heard about that story of the woman who underwent a very advanced surgery which involved a sort of reversible death system, which rendered her brain inert during the surgery? Supposedly she had an OBE and was able to remember conversations the surgeons were having while she had zero brain activity, and identify surgical tools she couldn't have even seen.

I saw it on this random show about paranormal stuff.

I've been looking all over for the name of this case so I could do a little research on it, but I've never been able to find another person who's heard of it.

Bingo, you forgot where you placed it but your subcon never forgets the tiniest of things, and it let you dream of where it was. Anybody can argue this as much as they want but this is how it works.....you will have to not have seen it in say a store you have not been to, dreamed of it's exact spot, found it in the exact spot. Of course maybe the other stuff would not be exact but whatever you saw in your dream will be.

edit- you're talking about Pam in your other paragraph. Search for Pam Reynolds, i lost the link in a reboot to the neardeath website with a huge writeup on it. Could not have seen the tools because it's a steril environment and they keep them in packages unable to be seen what they are.

Found it

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Also have a 1 hour of it on video on iands website.

here is another good website doing research on the nde/obe etc matter

http://www.horizonresearch.org/

Lots of people have been brought back from death without brain damage. Environmental factors play a key role, of course, the lower the temperature, the less damage there ultimately is.

An interesting case study on the survival of consciousness after death can be found in "The Future and Beyond" by Harold Saltmarch. He relates a story about a fellow named F.H.W. Myers, who was a paranormal researcher. Myers was pretty certain that the mind/soul survived after death, but he wanted to prove for once and for all that we do exist after we die. Myers told friends that he had a foolproof system...something that would crop up after he died. When the day came that he passed on, Myers apparently contacted three different mediums...one in India, one in England, and one in the U.S., and gave them three different messages in three different languages. These messages only made sense once the mediums contacted the Society for Psychical Research in London, where they were put together in the proper sequence.

Madhatter, you may want to look up Dr. Dirk De Ridder on Google. He came up with a method to get rid of tinnititus (a constant ringing in the ear) by using electrodes, and stumbled on a way to initiate OOBE's.

I've had two OOBE's in my life. The first can't be verified for sure, but the second one was really cool. I was renting a basement suite from this couple that had a Malamute (like a husky on 'roids). He lived out in the yard year round, and we became really good buddies. One morning, I woke up and went for a cigarette in the outside stairwell. When I lit up, I noticed that I hadn't opened the door, and I was buck naked. I was at a total loss as to where the cigarette and lighter had come from. I started to wig out, because the landlady was in the yard, and the Malamute was loose...here I am buck naked staring at the both of them. The stairwell was below ground, and the most she'd see was the top of my head, so I decide to yell out a friendly "Good Morning!". The dog came bounding down the stairwell to my complete horror, but my landlady didn't say a thing. The dog put his nose through my leg, and started to whine, going around in circles around me. Still not seeing me, my landlady came down the stairs to get her dog as I cringed towards the door. The dog followed me, and shrugged off her attempts to get him upstairs.

I woke up in my bed, put on some clothes, and ran to my lobby. There she was, pulling at her dog while he whined at my door. I came outside and the dog totally slobbered my hands and face.

"I've never seen him like this, ever!!", she told me.

Pretty sure I had an OOBE that morning. So this death thing? Not such a big deal, I think.

The only way to verify an OBE would be to obtain information that you could not have possibly known ahead of time. Anything you might find in your own house is most likely due to unconscious memory.

An easy example is to make a point to look under a neighbor's porch next LD (one that you never looked under before) or a backyard you have never seen and verify it the next day. You don't have to go far, but your house can easily be reconstructed with perfect precision. Also, make this a person you don't know, so you cannot make inferences on objects one might have, etc. Eliminate all guesswork; otherwise you will doubt yourself (if you are scientific).

Originally Posted by Never

An easy example is to make a point to look under a neighbor's porch next LD (one that you never looked under before) or a backyard you have never seen and verify it the next day. You don't have to go far, but your house can easily be reconstructed with perfect precision. Also, make this a person you don't know, so you cannot make inferences on objects one might have, etc. Eliminate all guesswork; otherwise you will doubt yourself (if you are scientific).

Even this technique would be suspect to the most scientific minded. I spent a lot of time looking for an article I read awhile ago but I couldn't find it so I'll paraphrase. Basically, this woman believed that through hypnosis, she had awakened memories of a past life. What they found out, however, was that the story she told contained an erroneous date, one which matched a misprint in a newspaper account of the same story. The woman had no (conscious) memory of ever reading the article, and had probably just briefly glanced at it, thus filing it away into her subconscious.

What I'm saying is, we don't know what we actually know. There is a wealth of information in your brain (everything you've ever experienced in fact) but we consciously only have access to a very small portion of it. It is very possible for this information to manifest itself in dreams and give the illusion of precognition or clairvoyance. The only real way to accurately test this sort of thing is to learn a piece of information in a dream that hadn't existed before you went to sleep. In other words, you could have someone place an undecided object in a specific place after you have fallen asleep and then attempt to go see it.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Even this technique would be suspect to the most scientific minded. I spent a lot of time looking for an article I read awhile ago but I couldn't find it so I'll paraphrase. Basically, this woman believed that through hypnosis, she had awakened memories of a past life. What they found out, however, was that the story she told contained an erroneous date, one which matched a misprint in a newspaper account of the same story. The woman had no (conscious) memory of ever reading the article, and had probably just briefly glanced at it, thus filing it away into her subconscious.

What I'm saying is, we don't know what we actually know. There is a wealth of information in your brain (everything you've ever experienced in fact) but we consciously only have access to a very small portion of it. It is very possible for this information to manifest itself in dreams and give the illusion of precognition or clairvoyance. The only real way to accurately test this sort of thing is to learn a piece of information in a dream that hadn't existed before you went to sleep. In other words, you could have someone place an undecided object in a specific place after you have fallen asleep and then attempt to go see it.

I've got this book by Oliver Fox, it was written in the early 1900's, where he did just that. Theosophy was absolutely huge back in those days (Oliver was a big follower of it), and he performed a number of experiments like that with friends to see if he was actually dreaming, or out of his body.

The problem being, of course, that it was only himself and a few collaborators that verified the OOBE's. It was a pretty subjective go at things scientifically. The subconscious is such a ginormous wealth of information that you could say it picks up nearly everything you may attempt. Furthering that, there's speculation that the subconcious may be capable of performing a crude sort of quantum calculation...and if that's the case, OOBE's will never be scientifically validated. If we're at all capable on some level of assessing probabilities based on all the info our subconscious has absorbed from our enivironment, the argument could be made that we just 'calculated' the most probable outcome of a hidden object experiment.

Although, it'd be pretty cool to verify that we had the ability to do something like that. In the end, either result would be astounding...the nonlocality of consciousness or the ability to compute quantum functions.

Great points both of you. I guess if you could see what was in the box on three or more occasions, that would be pretty good personal evidence at least; though not scientific "proof".

Originally Posted by Oedipud

I've got this book by Oliver Fox, it was written in the early 1900's, where he did just that. Theosophy was absolutely huge back in those days (Oliver was a big follower of it), and he performed a number of experiments like that with friends to see if he was actually dreaming, or out of his body.

The problem being, of course, that it was only himself and a few collaborators that verified the OOBE's. It was a pretty subjective go at things scientifically. The subconscious is such a ginormous wealth of information that you could say it picks up nearly everything you may attempt. Furthering that, there's speculation that the subconcious may be capable of performing a crude sort of quantum calculation...and if that's the case, OOBE's will never be scientifically validated. If we're at all capable on some level of assessing probabilities based on all the info our subconscious has absorbed from our enivironment, the argument could be made that we just 'calculated' the most probable outcome of a hidden object experiment.

Although, it'd be pretty cool to verify that we had the ability to do something like that. In the end, either result would be astounding...the nonlocality of consciousness or the ability to compute quantum functions.

Indeed. The reason why quantum computers could be exponentially better than digital ones is because of the quantum bit's ability to display more than just two states; more than just 0 or 1. The human brain is already known to do this, since each neuron has multiple axions that cause a cascade of effects beyond a simple fire or no fire.

I don't think there will ever be a universally accepted scientific knowledge of out of body experiences. Its one of those things that can only be verified on an individual basis. Anything else could easily be a hoax. In the object placement test one of you described the researchers could somehow inform the subject of what object has been placed in the room and where.

The only way to determine if its possible is to try it yourself.

I went over some of the Pam Reynolds story. I was a little underwhelmed. The account listed wasn't very detailed, its still possible she made a few lucky guesses about conversations and surgical tools during a dream which occured as her body was being warmed up or chilled down.

They are very hard to prove as they are so very unpredictable.

I have had a few in my time, and I have never had enough evidence to prove it happened. I think they are like some kind of vivid daydream induced hallucination.


And I have never had one where I don't feel light-headed or faint.

Basically I think the stories I've read are enough evidence to suggest it might not be a waste of time to try some of this myself.

Of course even if it is possible there's no guarantee that everyone can do it.

Originally Posted by MadHatter17

I don't think there will ever be a universally accepted scientific knowledge of out of body experiences. Its one of those things that can only be verified on an individual basis. Anything else could easily be a hoax. In the object placement test one of you described the researchers could somehow inform the subject of what object has been placed in the room and where.

The only way to determine if its possible is to try it yourself.

I went over some of the Pam Reynolds story. I was a little underwhelmed. The account listed wasn't very detailed, its still possible she made a few lucky guesses about conversations and surgical tools during a dream which occured as her body was being warmed up or chilled down.

Her descriptions of conversations are decidedly unimpressive. I have had lucid dreams in which I could clearly still here conversations taking place in the next room. This doesn't seem any different to me.

Originally Posted by MadHatter17

Basically I think the stories I've read are enough evidence to suggest it might not be a waste of time to try some of this myself.

Of course even if it is possible there's no guarantee that everyone can do it.

Despite my skepticism, I still believe it is definitely worth the attempt. If one were able to prove this kind of phenomena, even only to themselves (through repeatable scientifically sound experimentation of course) would be amazing, and a monumental accomplishment. Science doesn't progress by disregarding the far fetched before testing it, it thrives off of seemingly absurd suppositions followed by intense rigorous investigation.

Science is already studying the out of body expierience, and doing tests on it. They know how to make you project out of your body, but of course it's most likely just the brain knowing what to expect. They are saying it's all the temperale(sp) lobe that causes it, of course their OBE's and
non tested OBE's are different i hear, i've never had one, i just know what to expect. Before this happens they have a clear grasp of the room, what it looks like, where everything is, etc etc, so they strap on that helmet and see their energy arm waving infront of them, is it real? it's just the brain...if we had a spirit it does not mean the brain will not produce this hallucination, the brain is powerfull nomatter what, what you see is what's created by the pineal glad, you dream from DMT, it's from your pineal gland, so really...maybe they are just putting us to sleep? and you're just dreaming of whatever they are doing.

Science one day CAN prove these are real, first we gotta know if the brain and mind are not the same, then you gotta know the components to a soul and how to study something which we have no idea right now, if there even is a soul at all. I seriously doubt the brain can project itself outside of the body real time and go to places, and learn things you wont know without being there, and no they are not couincidences because how detailed they are, how perfect they are, and how something like that as many times caught is impossible to be a couincidence every time.

Of course i seriously doubt this will happen in our lifetimes, or for several more lifetimes of others after us.
As much as personal expierience might make you a believer does not mean it's real. I can have non LD extremly vivid dreams, my own personal belief i had them, and how they felt, doesn't mean the dream really happened? no, just means it felt real, but it's all hallucinations, all from my pineal gland. I'm not going to say OBE's or NDE's are all hallucinations, i don't know nor have i and probably will never expierience them, but i've have really vivid dreams and they feel real, OBE's/NDE's can be just more vivid, and more clear. I wonder if anyone has told anyone in the spirit world they are DC's, and that he is dreaming and see what happens.

Of course what i LOVE is when skeptics say "this did not happen, they just made everything up" etc, etc. Anyway who knows what the truth is, doesn't really matter because we will never know in this lifetime.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Her descriptions of conversations are decidedly unimpressive. I have had lucid dreams in which I could clearly still here conversations taking place in the next room. This doesn't seem any different to me.

Just means she heard the conversations while clinically dead, it's not like you can't hear people talking from a certain distance from you when clinically dead. We can hear people talking while we are sleeping, it's the same thing except we are not clinically dead when we are sleeping. It's the things you can not hear or see when you're clinically dead that is the most mind boggling. Maybe some type of ability we are able to have. Like...how do you go out of your body in a hospital you have never been, go to the roof you have never seen, know what exactly it is you saw, come back and say exactly what it looks like, and where everything is. You can say it was a couincidence all you want but couincidences are not 100% accurate, an example would be you can't give perfect detail, couincidences are good for say...there is 2 bucks around the corner, but they(OBErs) would say there is a glass with a smudge in the middle of the glass and what the woman was wearing in the store where the glass was, and what her hair color is. THAT is not a couincidence, the 2 dollars is a couincidence, it's a lucky guess. To go ona roof top a couincidence would be 1 thing right, but it was everything on the roof top, i think the rooftp story is at the link i posted somewhere, i dunno i never bookmark the stories to back up what i'm saying, i just read them and move on. I got a long youtube video that mentions the rooftop story, though.

Despite my skepticism, I still believe it is definitely worth the attempt. If one were able to prove this kind of phenomena, even only to themselves (through repeatable scientifically sound experimentation of course) would be amazing, and a monumental accomplishment. Science doesn't progress by disregarding the far fetched before testing it, it thrives off of seemingly absurd suppositions followed by intense rigorous investigation.

It's worth it, but people keep doing these things and it's always the same things going back and fourth.

Clinically dead is a vague term that has changed much over the years. Not too long ago it was defined by cardiac arrest. Now it is defined by an EKG showing no activity, but EKG's only scan the surface of the brain and there is no way of telling if there is still activity within its depths. It is entirely possible that this woman wasn't in a much different state from deep sleep.

"Her descriptions of conversations are decidedly unimpressive. I have had lucid dreams in which I could clearly still here conversations taking place in the next room. This doesn't seem any different to me."

Its quite different because during your lucid dream you still have brain function. Durring this surgery she was technically dead, no brain waves, there was no way that she could have heard what was said. The problem is the conversation was about something she'd though about before, the details she related about it were vague and it could easily have been a coincidence. Likewise the tool she described is nothing groundbreaking. Now if she'd sketched out several state of the art tools she'd never seen before and said "first they used this tool, then they stopped and used this one, then they changed the blade on this one and used it again, then the nurse sneezed and complained about her ragweed allergy" etc. We'd have something a little more significant.

"Just means she heard the conversations while clinically dead, it's not like you can't hear people talking from a certain distance from you when clinically dead. We can hear people talking while we are sleeping, it's the same thing except we are not clinically dead when we are sleeping."

No, sleeping and clinically dead are not the same. What your saying is something akin to me typing on my computer while its unplugged, then turning it on to find Microsoft word open with the text I just typed. It just can't happen. Unless of course the scenario involved some sort of undetectable activity which has not yet been proven to exist.

Originally Posted by MadHatter17

Its quite different because during your lucid dream you still have brain function. Durring this surgery she was technically dead, no brain waves, there was no way that she could have heard what was said. The problem is the conversation was about something she'd though about before, the details she related about it were vague and it could easily have been a coincidence. Likewise the tool she described is nothing groundbreaking. Now if she'd sketched out several state of the art tools she'd never seen before and said "first they used this tool, then they stopped and used this one, then they changed the blade on this one and used it again, then the nurse sneezed and complained about her ragweed allergy" etc. We'd have something a little more significant.

That's way way too detailed for someone to remember, to have things like this for dreaming you gotta every day write your dreams down to get to perfect detail, same would apply for this, wouldn't it? but OBE's are not an every single day thing like dreams are. In RL i can't remember every exact detail of 1 hour from start to finish of whatever hour i choose. I can say i typed this, i searched this, i went there, i did this, but that's just places i went to, not exactly what i typed, what time it was when i typed it, the exact time i went to a different site, etc etc etc.

No, sleeping and clinically dead are not the same. What your saying is something akin to me typing on my computer while its unplugged, then turning it on to find Microsoft word open with the text I just typed. It just can't happen. Unless of course the scenario involved some sort of undetectable activity which has not yet been proven to exist.

I go by what i see from the skeptics here, and other places i read or watch what doctors say can and cannot happen. They say you can still hear while you're clinically dead so i'll believe the experts since they should know this, their area of work, although i've read from and watched from other places and those doctors say it's impossible to hear anything while you're clinically dead. I guess nobody knows or some wont be saying you can, and some you cannot or people are just that ignorant?

"That's way way too detailed for someone to remember, to have things like this for dreaming you gotta every day write your dreams down to get to perfect detail, same would apply for this, wouldn't it? but OBE's are not an every single day thing like dreams are. In RL i can't remember every exact detail of 1 hour from start to finish of whatever hour i choose. I can say i typed this, i searched this, i went there, i did this, but that's just places i went to, not exactly what i typed, what time it was when i typed it, the exact time i went to a different site, etc etc etc."

You'd be surprised the kind of details people can remember. Women in general are especially good at recalling the minor details of a given location. You're right though my example was a bit exaggerated. Still it takes a little more then her describing a tool that "looked like an electric tooth brush" to prove there's anything out of the ordinary.

"I go by what i see from the skeptics here, and other places i read or watch what doctors say can and cannot happen. They say you can still hear while you're clinically dead so i'll believe the experts since they should know this, their area of work, although i've read from and watched from other places and those doctors say it's impossible to hear anything while you're clinically dead. I guess nobody knows or some wont be saying you can, and some you cannot or people are just that ignorant?"

Impossible makes more sense to me. What was the context of the former claim? Were they talking about it as a proven fact or a potential possibility? If so then the idea of being able to hear while you're clinically dead has the same ambiguity as every other possibility presented thus far.