Toltec way of life (Dreaming, Stalking, etc.)

If any of you (which I know of a few) have read any of carlos castanedas books about the teachings of don juan you may be familiar with toltec way of life (seers, sorcerers, brujos.) Some other authors have continued writing about the toltec way of life; theun mares, don miguel ruiz etc.

Anyway I was wondering if anyone considers themselves a warrior, or studies the toltec way of life?

I have been interested in it for a few months now and have been trying to live like a warrior, but it is very hard..

The way dreaming is discussed seems like a mixture of LDing, and APing.

Anyone familiar??

I'm in the progress of readin his books too, it's also been a few months ago since I discovered them, and just like you, I also think the best way to live your life is like a warrior. Definitely one of the most interesting books I've read, and they changed my life! I'm only at book number three right now, but I'm planning to read them all.

I'm really curious and impatient to find out if the things he talks about, about separate realities are true..the philosophy and the teaching on how to gain control over your dreams and your life definitely work like magic.

I didn't even begin to grasp many of the things he wrote about until I read through "The eagals gift." Some of the books are really good, others are very fabricated, and you can tell he made up the story line. Still in all the books there is very valuable information. The order of books I believe is:
1. Teachings of don juan- it's ok a good introductory
2. A Separate reality- very good, but hard to understand
3. Journey to ixtlan- probably in the top 3 of his best books
4. Tales of power- amazing, one of the top 3 I think
5. The second ring of power- probably the worst i've read so far
6. The Eagles gift- not so great either, but alot of valuable information
7. The fire from within- very very good
8. The power of silence- I haven't read it yet
9. The art of dreaming- I've just started and it's already good.

The rest I don't know of and haven't read yet. There may be a few things that CC (carlos castaneda) stresses that aren't so important, so don't get so wrapped up in everything. Utimately, living like a warrior is the most important thing. Being impeccable in everything you do. Living like a warrior will better your experience as a dreamer, stalker etc. Dreaming is way more comlplex than just becoming aware in them. Just keep reading and being impeccable.

After reading this I feel like my life has changed. The warrior way of life is definitely the way to go. I need to read some of his books, I've heard his name come up a lot, but never really looked into any of his stuff.

Following The Way of the Warrior will bring forth great control and peace of mind in anybody...I highly suggest to take many aspects of the Warrior Discipline, and applying it to your life; You will not regret the time and effort.

And Remember... A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting.

Only been at it a few months? Just wait! But you should know, if you choose to throw yourself down that path, there is no turning back. You can't just give up on it, it will keep dragging you back in. Remember it's not a matter of belief, it's something you have to experience for yourself.

By the way, every little thing he mentions about dreaming is SO true. There are things in those books that have taken me 15 years to understand, every time I read them, I find something new.

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Originally Posted by cachero

you can tell he made up the story line.

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Are you sure about that? If he did make it up, that would make his work brilliant beyond words, and I just don't think he was that creative. I've certainly considered his work as a writing style or genre, and there is just no way he has that kind of skill. The information they contain is brilliant, but if he make up the storyline, then that's just genius.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

By the way, every little thing he mentions about dreaming is SO true. There are things in those books that have taken me 15 years to understand, every time I read them, I find something new.

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I completely agree, he had to have done the dreaming work to know that stuff. When I first started reading his books in the late 80's, early 90's I thought it was strange his stuff on dreaming was so different to all the rest. It took me years before I realised that was because all the others don't make it past the first base and his stuff is in a different league.

Cusp is right. I've stopped the warriors way for some time now. But i have this nagging feeling every day That i should follow it. I stopped the path simply because i nearly drove myself insane. I discovered i could Influence other peoples dreams with sheer intent.

There was one person i met who had similar energy as mine. We could influence eachothers dreams easily. To this day I have tried half heartedly with some and got some results but none like i had with that particular person.

The connection i felt was So strong that it nearly drove me insane. I sought to try and banish that persons energy from my dream life. The night i did try to banish the person from my dreams they had a dream with A tv (Both of us saw tv screens in our dreamsharing experiments) and scrolling across the screen read "keep out/stay out"

However, What was going on in my dreams months after was pure hell. Almost everynight I would have a dream of that person taunting me and scaring me. My guess as to what was happening was this: Some of the Dream Entities that Castaneda talks about were using that person as a way to draw out my energy (since the connection was so strong.) I tried everything i could to stop this. I made it a goal to voice my intent for them to stop harrassing me. One night, As i became lucid I recognized that persons dreamsign and went to voice my intent. What came out of my mouth was "Take me with you". and Boom I entered that persons dream again. I had actually voiced the oppostite of what i intended to do.

Anyway I also realised that I had made an energetic barrier to keep that person out of my dreams. However, That person, Which I'll call x, had not made a barrier. And since X wanted nothing to do with me, There was no way i could convince that person to, let alone explain my dilemma in a way x would understand. Then I remembered i had lent x a book. So i asked for x to return that book to me. As soon as the book arrived in the mail, What i had suspected all along was true: Since x had read that book and associated it with me, x had unkowingly left an energy imprint of intent into the book. My hands would violently shake if i Held the book. When i put it on my shelf and tried to sleep. I could feel the book staring at me. I thought i was losing my mind.

So what I did was, I saged the book and then went outside and burned it. That night I had the most peacefull sleep ever. and x never again showed up in my dreams. That's when i decided to stop with dreaming and the path, Until i could really put my heart into it.

So guys. If you are going to pursue this path do so very carefully. The warnings that don juan tells Carlos are not a joke. This path is not for the faint of heart, so tread carefully.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

Are you sure about that? If he did make it up, that would make his work brilliant beyond words, and I just don't think he was that creative. I've certainly considered his work as a writing style or genre, and there is just no way he has that kind of skill. The information they contain is brilliant, but if he make up the storyline, then that's just genius.

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Well, There are a few things that don't add up in his books, and he's been discredited. BUT! I'm not saying that the principles in his book are not good, nor am I saying that his ideas about dreaming are not good, because I think they are great! I just think some of the story line is made up. Example: La Gorda, Nester, Pablito, Dona Soledad etc.

I think he used those characters to teach his ideas. Kinda like the bible?

Speaking of dreaming entities; allies, inorganic beings, I have been reading TAOD and read about the dreaming emissary. I awoke from an afternoon nap today after hearing a deep mans voice, (i was the only man in the house) saying something to me. He said only 1 word, and I'm not exactly sure what he said, it was like "go" "listen" or something. Has anyone else had this experience?

(I did read about the dream emissary the night before though.)

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Originally Posted by cachero

Well, There are a few things that don't add up in his books, and he's been discredited. BUT! I'm not saying that the principles in his book are not good, nor am I saying that his ideas about dreaming are not good, because I think they are great! I just think some of the story line is made up. Example: La Gorda, Nester, Pablito, Dona Soledad etc.

I think he used those characters to teach his ideas. Kinda like the bible?

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The only solid thing that would seem to discredit him is that Don Juan took him mushroom picking in the desert, where no mushrooms grow. That's the only solid argument against his work. They could have made an excursion into the second attention to find those mushrooms.

And many of those "made up" characters have published books of their own. Not without controversy of course, many people say they just claim to be those people. I haven't read those other books, but I assume if it was really them, their books would speak for themselves about their validity.

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Originally Posted by cachero

Speaking of dreaming entities; allies, inorganic beings, I have been reading TAOD and read about the dreaming emissary. I awoke from an afternoon nap today after hearing a deep mans voice, (i was the only man in the house) saying something to me. He said only 1 word, and I'm not exactly sure what he said, it was like "go" "listen" or something. Has anyone else had this experience?

(I did read about the dream emissary the night before though.)

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Auditory hallucinations are quite common after waking up, the hypnapompic stage. I sometimes see shadow people in my room after waking up, and I know I'm awake, which makes it really freaky.

I've only heard about the discreditation of CC, and I watched a youtube video. So really I have no argument. lol. Maybe I was just swayed by one persons argument. Thanks for shedding some light on it for me.

What do you know about recapitulation? Don Juan says that in order to have enought energy to do "dreaming" we must recap every aspect of our lives, and use that stored energy in our dreaming. How could that be put into a practical sense?

I bought my first CC book, the art of dreaming. but the language is really confusing me. I feel like he is discussing themes I have heard before but just using different words. So its making it hard for me to incorporate it into my own understanding of dreaming. I had an easier time with the Tibetan dream yoga book

the assemblage point is the one that bothers me the most. the words bother me so much that every time I read it I have to remind myself that its not so much about a point or anything assembling as it is consciousness raising up and down between those 'onion layers'

You should probably read a few of his other books first. Read:
The Teachings of don juan
A seperate reality
Journey to ixtlan
Tales of power
The eagles gift
The fire from within (to understand the assemblage point)
then TAOD.


There is defininitely a language or vocabulary that you develope from reading his books. I could understand how hard it would be to just start out with that book. He talks about different things with different names. Like in one book he calls inorganic beings, allies. He calls energy- power instead. And instead of the left side awareness, or the unknown, he calls it the nagual. If you have time, read some reviews or something.

actually, google his name, and read the books reviews under the website called www.prismagems.com I think.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

The only solid thing that would seem to discredit him is that Don Juan took him mushroom picking in the desert, where no mushrooms grow. That's the only solid argument against his work. They could have made an excursion into the second attention to find those mushrooms.

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I've heard other people mention that inconsistency but never spotted it myself. The thing I did notice though, is smoking mushrooms doesn't work - I've tried it enough times. What I think happened here is CC was trying to hide the true source of the little smoke, except from the initiated. If you have ever taken Salvia and read carlos' description of the effects of the little smoke... and it does grow there. Also I spotted this on my last reading, when DJ and CC are talking about the little smoke:

CC "Is the smoke the best possible ally for everybody?"
DJ "It's not the same for everybody. Many fear it and won't touch it, or even get close to it. The smoke is like everything else; it wasn't made for all of us."
CC "What kind of smoke is it, don Juan?"
DJ "The smoke of diviners!"

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

The only solid thing that would seem to discredit him is that Don Juan took him mushroom picking in the desert, where no mushrooms grow.

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Hmmm..

So I Googled "desert mushrooms" and this was the first hit:

http://www.tolweb.org/treehouses/?treehouse_id=4535

Have a look. There are several types worldwide.

I found some more things for you to check out oneiro:

So if you have time read some of these articles.

http://sustainedaction.org/Explorati...rations_iv.htm

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Originally Posted by cachero

I found some more things for you to check out oneiro:

So if you have time read some of these articles.

http://sustainedaction.org/Explorations/explorations_iv.htm

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[/quote]

Cachero... YOU go and check out said "articles", and do it well, and then come back with something of substance that isn't just hearsay or theory. You won't find it.

..but..

There's one thing that bothers me, and it is the "Blue Scout" anecdote. It's only possible if the young human woman were herself "possessed" by "inorganic energy". Scary thought.

I've read through most of the articles, and I BELIEVE, not saying that anyone else should, that he made up a lot of his work, which is kind of dissapointing to me...But, I still like to pick and choose many of the topics that he disscusses.

You can compare a lot of his stuff to many other peoples ideas. I think he wrote about things and tried to make them sound like he was the only one to introduce them. ie:
Not-doing, is very comparable to the taoist wu wei. Also comparing Tantien, to his concept of "will", and the "proper" way to walk, could be compared to "walking zen".

I think he liked the idea of himself discovering all these disciplines when really, they were things that have been around for a long time.

just my observation.

The principles are completely different.

"A key principle in realizing our oneness with the Tao is that of wu-wei, or "non-doing." Wu-wei refers to behavior that arises from a sense of oneself as connected to others and to one's environment. It is not motivated by a sense of separateness. It is action that is spontaneous and effortless. At the same time it is not to be considered inertia, laziness, or mere passivity. Rather, it is the experience of going with the grain or swimming with the current. Our contemporary expression, "going with the flow," is a direct expression of this fundamental Taoist principle, which in its most basic form refers to behavior occurring in response to the flow of the Tao."

Not Doing - DJ: "The world is the world because you know the doing involved in making it so. If you didn't know its doing , the world would be different. Without that certain doing there would be nothing familiar in the surroundings. This is a pebble because you know the doing involved in making it into a pebble. Now, in order to stop the world you must stop doing."



"Tantien -- the point one inch below your navel-practicing means this: In our consciousness many things are always coming and going... coming, going, coming, going. If you do tantien practice then you should do slow in, slow out breathing and keep your attention just below your navel; then your tantien becomes stronger and stronger. If you practice this way then your tantien and your mind will get a lot of energy. But what is the correct function of this energy? This is very important. If you cannot find the correct function of this energy, then maybe you will use this energy for bad actions. Sometimes this happens with people who practice martial arts like karate. They do tantien practice and get a lot of energy but then how to use this energy... they don't understand. Maybe they drink a lot, sex... many bad actions. Then they will have a problem."

Will, From the Eagles Gift:

We don't feel our will because we think that it should be something we know for sure that we are doing or feeling, like getting angry, for instance. Will is very quiet, unnoticeable. Will belongs to the other self. We are in our other selves when we do dreaming .
Will is such a complete control of the second attention that it is called the other self.

cc believes "little smoke" works by both ingestion and inhalation. the mushrooms are dried and then powdered so that the powder is sucked through the pipe along with the smoke from the other plants.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

I've heard other people mention that inconsistency but never spotted it myself. The thing I did notice though, is smoking mushrooms doesn't work - I've tried it enough times. What I think happened here is CC was trying to hide the true source of the little smoke, except from the initiated. If you have ever taken Salvia and read carlos' description of the effects of the little smoke... and it does grow there. Also I spotted this on my last reading, when DJ and CC are talking about the little smoke:

CC "Is the smoke the best possible ally for everybody?"
DJ "It's not the same for everybody. Many fear it and won't touch it, or even get close to it. The smoke is like everything else; it wasn't made for all of us."
CC "What kind of smoke is it, don Juan?"
DJ "The smoke of diviners!"

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In the books the effects are instantaneous, so not the effects of ingestion. If you read his description of collecting the ingredients for the little smoke, DJ tells him the other ingredients are only to help the mixture burn and make it taste better.

i agree, ingestion is unlikely to cause such an immediate effect. i'm relaying cc's first hand opinion, which is that the mushrooms effect is gained through ingestion. possibly it's a combination of both. maybe the smoke mixture causes immediate effects followed by the effects of the ingested mushroom. the effects seem to last a long time in his accounts, but like you mention, there are immediate effects as well. also, the effects sound different than what i've heard other people describe from mushrooms. i've never taken them, so i can't compare directly.

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Originally Posted by Vortex

In the books the effects are instantaneous, so not the effects of ingestion. If you read his description of collecting the ingredients for the little smoke, DJ tells him the other ingredients are only to help the mixture burn and make it taste better.

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Hi, I've ingested mushrooms in huge quantities and never had effects like he describes, also tried smoking them on there own and with several other things but never got anything at all off of them that way. I've also smoked Salvia through a bong several times and the effects were very similar to his description but short lived.

I dunno vortex, the one and only time I have tried salvia I made the mistake of using x100. My friend had some that he uses on occassion and I decided I would like to try it. I hit it out of his 4ft bong. About 5 seconds after I exhaled I fell through his floor and found myself falling out of the sky in a freefall I seemed to fall for hours, and when I came out of it my friend said I collapsed to my knees and was tripping out for like 30mins. I just recently started reading CC's first book and his experience was very simliar to mine, I believe the salvia he took was stronger than lab grade x100 though.

Wow 100X :shock:

The plant is known to have been in cultivation by Mexican shaman for several thousand years, it became what is known as a cultigen, meaning the wild ancestor had become extinct and it has been propagated by cuttings for so long it has almost completely lost its ability to reproduce by seed.

If the preparation of the smoking mixture was a process passed down through the lineage then it was very unlikely to be an alcohol extraction, so the natives must have found another way to concentrate it. I have read that the reason you don't need to powder the leaf to make an extraction is because the salvinorin is on the surface of the leaf, if so then maybe they had another way to separate it.