Thread: Skepticism

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

The dream type perhaps. The real ones are still up in the air.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic or not with that statement. As I'm not sure, i'll take it on face value...

So that's how it works is it?
Every time something is proven to be created in the mind, you will call it "the dream type" and all accounts that havn't been studied fall into the "real type"...
until of course they are studied and proven to be in the mind, then you'll call those the "dream type" too ... and the unstudied others remain "the real type"... so on and so on.

It's a bit like hearing bumps in the night assuming they are the noises of ghosts, then going to explore, realising some are caused by the water pipes, then saying "well, yeah... THOSE were the water pipes, but the others were real ones..." then you search futher "oh, well i see some of the bumps were caused by mice, but the others are DEFINITELY real ones" and you go on to discover more and more normal causes for the noises... never stopping to think that perhaps ALL the noises were caused by normal means, not ghosts.
Why continue to choose an unlikely explanation, when after continued study, more and more cases are discovered to be of earthly cause?

If OBEs and Astral travel, are only real in the cases that have yet to be studied by science, as with the ghost noise story above, dosn't that tend to make you think that perhaps it's a bit of a coincidence that the scientists havn't had at least one real case yet?

Sure just because somethings are cause by normal means, dosn't rule out other causes. But, surely you must see that the claim that "it's only the untested ones that are real", which is basically the claim you made, is highly convinient for believers.

It's a bit like saying, I have an invisible friend, but he appears visible whenever nobody is looking but me. It's the perfect excuse isn't it?

Not trying to be difficult here, just pointing out the flaws in that way of thinking.

What i meant was the dream (or Halucination types) type of OBE's are considered those. People are ALWAYS and i mean ALWAYS ignoring the accurate ones and saying it in a way that all OBE's are the exact same which is ignorant. As people of science how can you dismiss this that easily? i thought science is about finding truth, and people are always ignoring the truth, that these people can accuratly describe things they just can't possibly know and saying it's a thing of the brain even though the brain is shut off. Finding the truth means you can't dismiss stuff you want to dismiss unless i tell you i ate a whole airplane. Frankly, i am tired of repeating myself on this area! we all know how most of these OBE's work, a lack of Oxygen to the brain, and all that other stuff, we know this already, what we don't know and what the lack of oxygen to the brain does not tell us is how can we accuratly describe the things the people can accuratly say? there is no process in the brain that says "while i was shut off they had this conversation and this guy was here, etc". What we don't know is the time of the OBE, although some were during clinical death but i am not going to go there, i sound like a broken record and there is plenty to read on line or the forums here. But, these are not your average normal OBE that can be written off as a lack of Oxygen to the brain, no they are different then that.

Even when science is 99.9% sure of the cause of OBEs and NDEs there will always be some who can justify hiding in that .1%.

In other words, as I said, hiding in the cracks of science.

Or, as believers like to call it "Faith".

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

What i meant was the dream (or Halucination types) type of OBE's are considered those. People are ALWAYS and i mean ALWAYS ignoring the accurate ones and saying it in a way that all OBE's are the exact same which is ignorant. As people of science how can you dismiss this that easily? i thought science is about finding truth, and people are always ignoring the truth, that these people can accuratly describe things they just can't possibly know and saying it's a thing of the brain even though the brain is shut off. Finding the truth means you can't dismiss stuff you want to dismiss unless i tell you i ate a whole airplane. Frankly, i am tired of repeating myself on this area! we all know how most of these OBE's work, a lack of Oxygen to the brain, and all that other stuff, we know this already, what we don't know and what the lack of oxygen to the brain does not tell us is how can we accuratly describe the things the people can accuratly say? there is no process in the brain that says "while i was shut off they had this conversation and this guy was here, etc". What we don't know is the time of the OBE, although some were during clinical death but i am not going to go there, i sound like a broken record and there is plenty to read on line or the forums here. But, these are not your average normal OBE that can be written off as a lack of Oxygen to the brain, no they are different then that.

Thats just not the magic bullet you think it is LF.
In fact, its a very easy one to answer.
External input does have a direct effect on dreams.

This has been discussed before.

Skeptics seem to believe OBE's are a conspiracy theory put together by an organized group of believers in order to lead skeptics away from the truth. Please... have a little faith in your fellow human being, why on earth would anyone want to lie about this, let alone, lie about this in group and create a whole conspiracy around OBE's? That doesn't make any sense at all. This is nothing but extreme paranoia.

Oh, but we do believe that you believe.

But the truth is out there and easy to find, if you weren't so close-minded.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Thats just not the magic bullet you think it is LF.
In fact, its a very easy one to answer.
External input does have a direct effect on dreams.

This has been discussed before.

Sorry but extrenal input does not cut it (accuracy). Let's just classify it as something we don't understand and needs more study which is exactly why we need to wait for the aware project to be done in 3-4 years. Just in time for 2012.

Oh right, BTW i am not going to ignore this. They can all be lack of oxygen to the brain, because it's a process of the brain, so by how i talk about OBE's probably are different then your idea of them. I'm more talking about the expierience they have, not the process that happens.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Sorry but extrenal input does not cut it (accuracy). Let's just classify it as something we don't understand

Lets not.

Your talking about NDEs in particular.
We all know dreams/hallucinations can assimilate sounds from outside.
Its no great stretch to suggest a patient can hear the doctors and nurses discussing them and create a dream scene which reflects the same.

Lets not forget that not all NDEs are on the operating table.
Many are simple during states of Crisis where the patient is dying but not
actually unconsious.

FYI the Aware project is an extension of previous work. Work which has not as yet validated a supernatural explanation.

You suggest that its 50:50 until the results of the aware project come back.
Thats a spurious assesment.

There is also wealth of previous scientific work, none of which can simply be ignored.

I'm gonna bet that in 2012 the results of the aware project will be quietly swept under the carpet by "believers".

Looks like some have already got their excuses ready.
http://spiritualscientific.com/yahoo...y.33271647.htm

Negative results of the AWARE study doesn't mean that NDEs aren't real, but it simply could mean that while experiencing quantum consciousness, you might not be reading and remembering a sign on a reader-board near the ceiling of the room.

Ah yes. The old quantum consciousness defence.

Incidentally, a pilot of the Aware project took place over 18 months.
Guess what they uncovered?

Originally Posted by moonshine

Lets not.

Your talking about NDEs in particular.
We all know dreams/hallucinations can assimilate sounds from outside.
Its no great stretch to suggest a patient can hear the doctors and nurses discussing them and create a dream scene which reflects the same.

Lets not forget that not all NDEs are on the operating table.
Many are simple during states of Crisis where the patient is dying but not
actually unconsious.

FYI the Aware project is an extension of previous work. Work which has not as yet validated a supernatural explanation.

You suggest that its 50:50 until the results of the aware project come back.
Thats a spurious assesment.

There is also wealth of previous scientific work, none of which can simply be ignored.

I'm gonna bet that in 2012 the results of the aware project will be quietly swept under the carpet by "believers".

True this has been done before and i am not denying it, nor have i ever denied it. This time it's different because place markers they have in the rooms. You should see them when you are projecting, eitherwise it is just hallucinations.

As far as the other post you have. They will always find excuses, just like people of science will try and find ways around this thing aswell.

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

True this has been done before and i am not denying it, nor have i ever denied it. This time it's different because place markers they have in the rooms.

Actually Lucid, the AWARE projects pilot scheme, lasting 18 months did exactly that. What were the results I wonder?

In any event doctors and scientists have always been interested in the remarkable consistence of NDEs.

To reitterate my point, whilst the aware project is interesting, it does not negate any and all previous investigations, experiments and conclusions.

There have been numerous comments that supernatural causes are still to be proven/disproven simple because theres a new experiment on the cards.
Not true. Science is built on what comes before. Its not all swept away for a do-over.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Actually Lucid, the AWARE projects pilot scheme, lasting 18 months did exactly that. What were the results I wonder?

In any event doctors and scientists have always been interested in the remarkable consistence of NDEs.

To reitterate my point, whilst the aware project is interesting, it does not negate any and all previous investigations, experiments and conclusions.

There have been numerous comments that supernatural causes are still to be proven/disproven simple because theres a new experiment on the cards.
Not true. Science is built on what comes before. Its not all swept away for a do-over.

They were studying it, there was no placemarkers in the rooms. The whole purpose of this is to see if they are real or not, if the first batch was exactly this then there would be no reason to even try again, which this is not. This is not a second go, this is a different type of research, one where you place something in a room and see if they can see it.

it just took me a few days to get thrown to the wolves eh? won't somebody save me!?! i know better from you, i'll just do it myself.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

...all the logic and evidence in world will have a hard time convincing them otherwise.

if you have it, let me know. i've been dying. but maybe it's not as convincing as you think. we'll never know tho.

There shouldn't be a need to explain how it contradicts science though. The name 'supernatural' itself implies that it's something beyond the laws of nature (isto é: made up bullcrap).

that's a gross fallacy. obvious too. plus your accent is off to the other side of the ocean, and that's an ugly sound to everyone else.

you don't get it, im here to hear you out. i like to hear the research made into this stuff. i would like to hear any scientific objections or supports. easier still, i'll hear out any explanation. and the easiest, i'll hear out perspectives. but you don't have much of any of that, not that it doesn't exist, i know. you're so pissed off that you would have given me something by now. you know, the reasons why you don't think this stuff exists, not for this thread, but the others you like so much. you keep throwing me your insults and bullshit instead, and expect me to sit here and wait for someone to save me. and then you hide behind mods, not wanting to be insulted for your insults. mods are just words, i've seen them immediately undermined, right after issuing a warning for insults, with even more blatant insults. and ending at that, like it was enough. i've seen one delete post, but i can only guess, from the stuff i see here, that this is pretty rare. no worries tho, we don't need anyone but each other. but im sidetracking...

for all the made up probabilities and fallacies that moonshine likes to throw around, under the guise of a sceptic, with the same kind of shitty attitude...we'll, it's only so much fun when you know someone just wants to knock you down. i've never seen a reply from this septic on these 'supernatural' threads that didn't start and end with tossing bullshit at people's faces. i don't see reasons, explanations, attempts at understanding. it's shit, and it's all intentional too. and don't complain! oh btw, science can fit a whole universe in the cracks of science, it's true! it's gotta be pretty big, but you must know, why don't you tell us? with O's razor at your side, but you don't know how to use it.

but i like your passions, at least you guys try to defend the way you think. some people get intimidated in those situations. i'm open to any arguments, evidence and whatnot. just please refrain from pushing your bullshit down my throat.


B/but/ if you are still whistling. this will just get worse.[/B

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

They were studying it, there was no placemarkers in the rooms. The whole purpose of this is to see if they are real or not, if the first batch was exactly this then there would be no reason to even try again, which this is not. This is not a second go, this is a different type of research, one where you place something in a room and see if they can see it.

Link? Evidence?

Doesn't ring true. A Pilot Scheme is just that.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

that's a gross fallacy. obvious too. plus your accent is off to the other side of the ocean, and that's an ugly sound to everyone else.

Obviously, I didn't mean that there's no need for an explanation at all. Rather, the fact that something is commonly labelled 'supernatural' means that a quick google or wikipedia search will provide understanding on why that something is called 'supernatural', and so there shouldn't be a need for anyone here to waste time writing a lengthy post explaining it.

It has been said a thousand times already, but here it is again: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Let's take Telepathy as an example: For that to be possible the human brain would have to be able to send (and receive) thoughts as electromagnetic signals, studies of the brain however show it doesn't have such capabilities. So when someone claims telepathy is actually possible, providing zero evidence, why should anyone believe him/her over Science?



Ah, and I'd like you to tell me exactly where did I insult you. As far as I know the only instance of me insulting someone here was when I called deathcell an idiot, once.

#edit#

This video has been linked a lot but it seems you have missed it so:

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

It has been explained several times in this forum how many supernatural beliefs contradict scientific knowledge.

Let's take Telepathy as an example...studies of the brain however show it doesn't have such capabilities.

and you thought i knew. i found some broader ones, that relate to all things supernatural. here.

2. A person’s mind cannot affect the material world without the mediation of some physical energy or force.

that's just one. i also found a good list of arguments against the supernatural, some of which i have problems with. here

supposing these objections stands, and i've heard objections, let's now require extraordinary evidence if someone is trying to prove something to us. so contradictions are put forward, still, there's another reason too, a scientific principle in which these things operate. that last one is more important because it shows how something could work in reality. but if you want to use that to convince someone they have no choice but to agree, then let's move on.

a link to the wiki entry on supernatural, where im taking my argument.

these are two of the major stands for the belief in the supernatural (besides being crazy).

one is the belief in a supernatural reality. believing in a supernatural existence defies sense, whether it's true or not. anything claiming to exist outside of the laws of nature stands as a self-defined supernatural. the problem with the scientific stance is that it has to disprove god, or the very possibility of the supernatural. often with milk jugs and time machines. so, tho your decision not to believe may be completely logical, you can't use those same standards for a decision to believe.


with this one it branches, but along similar lines. the general claim is that it's a natural occurrence that has yet to be understood. not only that, but you're still bottom up on the explanation of reality itself, instead of top bottom, with nothing in sight (implications of a unified theory likely to change physics in a significant way. still, by only the very need of a unified theory, it must change in some way). you would need that to convince me that now you can begin to understand everything. science has always changed and rebuilt, that's history that often takes many many years to turn. you think it covers like a blanket, but it doesn't. and it's full of the holes of contradictions and puzzling effects. and you have no idea where those cracks lead to. physics/science has yet to pull itself together (unity) and claim the top of the mountain. and do you even know where that is? is it far and do you have the ability to even walk there? that's arrogance. thinking that something is/isn't real, maybe for good reason, and then going around pushing it down people's throats as da truff. if it was the other way around, wrapping everything in unity, then i'd be more willing to see the weight. but for me your appropriate dismissal is not only still open to question, but can also be seen as relatively naive, like the rest of us. which is why you can dismiss something, but not force someone else to dismiss it based on the same (good) reasons, or face the consequences of your proofist to the face. you don't know the consequences, you don't even know where you are and what you're doing.

and im easily offended, if you've offended me through someone else, that counts too.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Link? Evidence?

Doesn't ring true. A Pilot Scheme is just that.

Sorry been busy all day, being really competitive in cod4 and full time work does not leave much time. I'll go find some soon.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Ah, and I'd like you to tell me exactly where did I insult you. As far as I know the only instance of me insulting someone here was when I called deathcell an idiot, once.

#edit#

This video has been linked a lot but it seems you have missed it so:

Why he would call me an idiot is another question.. I could perhaps be stubborn, but by no means am I an idiot.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Link? Evidence?

Doesn't ring true. A Pilot Scheme is just that.

I'm actually not going to bother looking for it, i'm pretty much done with this topic for a while. I wont be around much anyway.

just because i dont think it's fair making a claim, that science is filled with ignorance, without providing some evidence. i went searching and found a few. not much, but something to chew on while we wait for the silver bullet. and maybe you've heard this argument before, but maybe you haven't.

this guy (note that this source was not officially endorsed due to a lack of consensus, stated at the very top for some odd reason) talking about theoritical physics that are formed thru math and used to explain stuff;

...this 'field,' has been been granted status as a real, ontic entity. In contrast to particles or material bodies themselves, this new object does not have size, form or other physical characteristics.

at this point you should know that to further physics and science in general, a new math language needs to be created. it's like science has yet to learn how to speak.

my next source, the most important i found, is more general about the cracks of science. from his first chapter;

...and the list goes on. Is our universe truly such a bizarre place, or could it be that our investigative tool itself – our science – has simply lost its way? ...Crucially, our science rests upon the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that everything arises from a pool of continually recycled energy that is never created or destroyed, but only changes form.

A universe where isolated energies and forces could be conjured up to act on the surroundings without drawing upon an underlying energy source would be one of fantasy and magic – not science.

...it is critically important to note that science as we know it is entirely an energy-based paradigm, composed of a patchwork of separate and still rather poorly understood energies, forces and "effects." And further, many of these everyday phenomena do indeed act mysteriously and continually on their own, with such clearly visible physical energy-conservation violations either overlooked or dismissed with flawed logical abstractions. This is our energy paradigm, inherited from a much simpler time, which we now use exclusively and unquestioningly as the scientific lens through which we view and interpret all observations.

from this i learned that science, as we know it, is like magic! note that thermods laws are very much in question. perhaps unrelated i found this. the previous source provides a general look at some of the major holes of physics. a piece;

we have no explanation for the power source for gravity...and all these theories have impossible physical implications that overturn everything we know about matter and energy.

note also that nothing presented here is tied in any way to the supernatural, but it defends the second claim i proposed earlier, the ignorance of science, and consequently ties with the distribution of energy contradiction spoken of earlier. if you still think you have reason to claim the truth, specially you moonshine since this is central to most of your insults, then you need to work this stuff out somehow. don't go thinking i know the answer.