Thread: Lucid dreaming is much more we ever imagined - a key to external life.

Well I read everything and watched the videos about Where Buddhism and Science meet but it seems as if your other links are broken so I could not watch the documentary. But I have been thinking about this kind of stuff for a very long time and never actually had any facts to back it up. This leaves me with so many questions! But I'm wondering, since the mind creates reality, does that mean we all see reality differently? For example if one man sees an apple will another man see this apple differently?

Sorry about the broken links, i fixed them, so please - take a look!

I have been thinking about the way different people see reality as well.
I´m sure that we all see colors very differently. It can be, that we see material object almost the same way as others, because the meaning of objects and words has developed over a long time, so we have collectively created a certain shape for many different things. There´s this certain "standard" for each object, that we have put into our minds.

just speculating..

yea i've read everthing and watched some of the links. I really have been dabbling on these ideas for a while. In this kind of research I always seem to find random facts and such that connect and make perfect sense. It feels so good.

About to go to bed, but I can't wait to read this. I'm a religious/spiritual person and often think about the connections between dreams and the hereafter, and the thought that they may be a gateway into the spiritual realm. I would love to be a part of this discussion when I get the chance.

So DMT is essentially a hormonal drug generated by certain ritualistic behaviours.

This Hit might explain the popularity of religions and belief systems.

But it does not validate those belief systems.

hi! intriguing article though I found some incongruities about budhism in it.

1. buddhists also believe in hell- in fact budhist believe you can be reborn as a god, demigod, human, animal, hungry ghost and hell being, depending on your state of consciousness prior to death

2. Yes, gaining lucidity during death, or indeed not loosing it- call it a death WILD is the main purpose of budhism- if you don't gain lucidity you will be reborn as one of the aforementioned beings, if you do you stand a good chance of escaping this cycle and attaining a state of non-rebirth and full knowledge and stuff- I recommend reading the Tibetan book of living and dying


Overall I find all of this very intriguing, and it could be true, or it could be but a misguided acid trip- 50/50 chance in my opinion, still, high enough to warrant research- plus if you are dead and it turns out there is nothing there you won't really care

I find this post of yours very interesting becuase it strongly ties in with my own theories of consciousness.

Maybe it's psuedo -science, becuase I don't really know enough abotu it, but when I think about what a consciousness is, it doens't appear to be anything that really "exists" in our spacial dimensions, it is a phenomenon that exists through a medium which seems to be the brain, using the body as a tool, to keep this network living in 3d space, so that it can go to sleep, and manipulate an alternate conscious dimension.

I kind of see the very existance ofconsciousness itselfas something that cannot exist in our world, it is not a physical thing, it isn't a force, it isn't an electromagnetic wave, it does not appear to even exist on a scientific level, yet you feel it every second you are alive. This is why I believe that the very consciousness itself actualy IS a dimension of existance in it's own, and that every living thing with a consciousness experiences it, and all consciousnessis linked, because it is all one, yet seperated by physical bodies and egos. when your body dies, you're instantly just a part of all consciosuness again, a state of blankness which is what some people theorise is the state you enter when you die, just blank nothingness, and no actually ability to question this. The lucid dreaming seems to be a volentary ticket to manipulate this dimension, using your physical ego as a tool, as if this dimension invented the 3 dimensional world as well as time, as a means to create life, to add significance to ITSELF.

kk... random thoughts explosion there. be sure to tell me if I'm insane or not (:

I know a lot of people would argue about DMT and the pineal gland. I'm still not sold on it, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Other than that, I agree with your philosophy. Like yuri mentioned, get some books on Tibetan Buddhism. Especially Dream Yoga. Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's book The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep is a good place to start. It is not too "far out." It explains Buddhism by relating it to simple to understand human behaviors.

I know we can only begin to form a very simple model of how this all works. Much of it is just semantics and point of view. Different metaphors for the same fundamental, impossible to understand, questions. My favorite thing about shamanic religions is that they don't rely on any kind of dogma. They rely on teaching people to experience things firsthand. The best we can do is have these experiences firsthand, agree that they are common to all humans, and then discuss the possibilities.

something just occurred to me-it may appear obvious but bear with me- the reason Buddhism is discussed so much here is because it's the only creed that we know of that has detailed (I know the bible has some references but from what I've heard they are very simple) views and practices concerning LD-ing. Does the fact that it's the only one make it right? What if there were 5 religions, each with their own detailed take on LD-ing and their own techniques, would we still respect it as much?


let's juxtapose the current 3 LD "creeds"

1. Buddhist Dream Yoga
advantages: prepares you for death as well, a "higher purpose"- attaining enlightenment/nirvana. Advanced practitioners theoretically LD all the time
disadvantages: practices are designed to be taught with an experienced teacher/guru, and while they are available now in books very few people seem to have much luck with them- perhaps due to their vagueness and large amount of practice time and concentration required
The life after death bit is unproven- a meditative brain trip doesn't constitute proof to me no matter what any Buddhist says.

2. the Laberge LD methods
advantages: relatively easy to understand, well documented and "scientific"
disadvantages: this is a rather new science- if I had to compare this with medicine I'd say we are about in the 1800's- the techniques are very hit and miss and it can take a while to find your perfect combination, if ever

3. the Natural way
advantages: it's hard coded in the brain, requires little or no effort to achieve lucidity
disadvantages: you must be born a natural to use this technique, also some naturals can't stop LD-ing and they see this as a bad thing

OK I hate to rain on your parade, but basically what your saying is that making it successfully into the afterlife is based upon learning to master lucid dream control.

First of all, for there to be an afterlife there would need to be some part of you that survives death; call it a soul if you will. If you have a soul that contains everything you are then what do you need a brain for? The souul should encapsulate your very being.

DMT is simply a hormone that alters the brains perception. Does it then alter the souls perception also.

My belief is that a person is a soul and at death everything you are ceases to be. Your hope therefore lies in finding and getting to know your creator so that you will be remembered by him when the time comes. If you do that successfully, then his promise is that you will live again.

But hey...that's just me. Believe what you need to to get you through life.

Whatever the case may be, shouldn't this be in Beyond Dreaming?

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Whatever the case may be, shouldn't this be in Beyond Dreaming?

Its looking that way.

Maybe it's psuedo -science, becuase I don't really know enough abotu it, but when I think about what a consciousness is, it doens't appear to be anything that really "exists" in our spacial dimensions, it is a phenomenon that exists through a medium which seems to be the brain, using the body as a tool, to keep this network living in 3d space, so that it can go to sleep, and manipulate an alternate conscious dimension.

Science has done enough to prove absolutely that the brain is indeed the centre of consciousness.
Injury, surgery and drugs all effect consciousness, because they effect the brain.

Originally Posted by JustBe

My belief is that a person is a soul and at death everything you are ceases to be. Your hope therefore lies in finding and getting to know your creator so that you will be remembered by him when the time comes. If you do that successfully, then his promise is that you will live again.

Well, that certainly sounds like a lot less responsibility. A lot less work. I guess that's why it is such a popular belief system lately, in today's lazy culture of zero personal responsibility.

I'll go ahead and move this to BD.

Originally Posted by moonshine

Science has done enough to prove absolutely that the brain is indeed the centre of consciousness.
Injury, surgery and drugs all effect consciousness, because they effect the brain.

One thing soul-believers often forgot is that soul (if it exists) have any obligation to be consciousness carrier. Consciousness as we understand it may be just, say, this body's bug.

Very good post. And I agree.

This is what I think about the universe, and it's from a lot of research on different subjects, metaphysics, religion, science, mysticism, etc.

We are in a 3d reality multiverse, but our consciousness/awareness/soul/spirit whatever is only within one universe. This 3d reality is bound by time and space. Outside of the 3d universe is the 4d hyperplane, or time-space. This is not bound by time and space and is infinity. Kind of hard to explain, try this

Imagine the universe -- or the multiverse -- as a giant self-transcendant machine, a cube that encompasses all of creation: every world, every reality, every dimension. It holds within it every concept, every idea, every being ever created, every dream, every thought...

...and it has its own voice, its own purpose.

It has its own consciousness, so alien, so different from anything our tiny and insignificant intellects can comprehend.

Imagine the world we live in, this one unique reality, is only one room in this machine, one room among many that are constantly in motion. Some are similar to the one we know, and yet others are vastly dissimilar, so completely unlike anything we have ever seen from the comfort of our own. And as each room moves throughout the cube, its laws -- the basic nature of what we consider to be reality, up and down, left and right, time and space and depth -- are also changing, so what we think of as the direction of 'up' or the concept of 'time' in this reality, this room, is something completely different in the next one over.

Now imagine each room is in fact a single moment that lasts an eternity, one infinite moment out of an endless, boundless amount of others. Our consciouness lives out that moment from birth to death, we remain in that room until the time comes for us to depart, and we accept it as reality because we are unaware of anything else but it.

And imagine yet further a substance capable of deconstructing our consciousness to tear down the walls between these dimensions, these rooms, and reassembling it somewhere else, another room, another dimension, another moment, transporting us there without pause or hesitation. And when we awaken next door, we accept this new dimension as reality because we are unaware of anything else but it

this is where dreams and the afterlife take place within this infinite cube, not inside the rooms because this is where normal 3d reality is, but outside of the HOUSE. Here this is infinity, the universal mind. like an OCEAN of thoughts, different thoughts. Similar thoughts attract to each other. This is how people share an afterlife or share dreams. Salvia is one hell of an entheogen, people are reporting having their self-awareness on a blade of grass or a piece of wood looking at their bodies. This is only a vague explanation of what I think, but it's really hard to explain but in my head it's a lot more clearer. We are truly part of a universal mind. I will go more into this later, but I'm in a hurry right now. Death is not the end, death is only departing this reality thats bound by time and space. After death you return to the cosmos..because you are PART of the universe....you ARE the universe. The universe is aware. The tibetans said if you can wake induce lucid dream you have control over death itself. When you return to the infinite cosmos, you experience whatever you want...whatever you believe. People that follow religions will experience exactly what they believe in and probally would share that experience with other sentinent beings. My biggest question is do we take the ego with us when we die. All you have to do is stay aware when you die and you'll be right into a lucid dream. If you expect to experience a black void you will.

I'm really addicted to the idea that consciousness powers the brain and not the other way around. It's the only way to explain near death experiences. People have had experiences after being brain-dead for over an hour.

Originally Posted by HaRd_WiReD

Very good post. And I agree.

This is what I think about the universe, and it's from a lot of research on different subjects, metaphysics, religion, science, mysticism, etc.

We are in a 3d reality multiverse, but our consciousness/awareness/soul/spirit whatever is only within one universe. This 3d reality is bound by time and space. Outside of the 3d universe is the 4d hyperplane, or time-space. This is not bound by time and space and is infinity. Kind of hard to explain, try this



this is where dreams and the afterlife take place within this infinite cube, not inside the rooms because this is where normal 3d reality is, but outside of the HOUSE. Here this is infinity, the universal mind. like an OCEAN of thoughts, different thoughts. Similar thoughts attract to each other. This is how people share an afterlife or share dreams. Salvia is one hell of an entheogen, people are reporting having their self-awareness on a blade of grass or a piece of wood looking at their bodies. This is only a vague explanation of what I think, but it's really hard to explain but in my head it's a lot more clearer. We are truly part of a universal mind. I will go more into this later, but I'm in a hurry right now. Death is not the end, death is only departing this reality thats bound by time and space. After death you return to the cosmos..because you are PART of the universe....you ARE the universe. The universe is aware. The tibetans said if you can wake induce lucid dream you have control over death itself. When you return to the infinite cosmos, you experience whatever you want...whatever you believe. People that follow religions will experience exactly what they believe in and probally would share that experience with other sentinent beings. My biggest question is do we take the ego with us when we die. All you have to do is stay aware when you die and you'll be right into a lucid dream. If you expect to experience a black void you will.

I'm really addicted to the idea that consciousness powers the brain and not the other way around. It's the only way to explain near death experiences. People have had experiences after being brain-dead for over an hour.

That's EXACTLY the belief I have! Only.. I kinda used my own terms and things to explain it.

trolluz your post was very interesting again.

Have you ever heard of the "ancient Egyptian mystery schools"? This is where they taught the science of consciousness and the immortality of the soul. They also practiced dying and being reborn in the here and now. It was considered divine knowledge. The people who orchestrate our world events (Illuminati, or the enlightened you may have heard )are from these ancient schools. See, they knew about consciousness/the soul/mind, LONG before what quantum mechanics is saying now.

I truly think we are part of a universal mind, and that spirituality is very real.


The eastern world practiced this for many years, and we looked down upon them because we mostly had technology and science here in the west.

How can you seriously make DMT illegal, and it is produced in the brain every night. That means everyone should be arrested for possession of an illegal substance ( DMT ) every time they wake up.

Probably 95% of the western world don't believe or don't understand spirituality. But it'll come to be known by all, when it's time. I guess it's true what they say, truth is first ridiculed, opposed, and finally and inevitably becoming self-evident.

Also, the Tibetan monks stated that if you could successfully WILD( wake induced lucid dream ), you have control over death itself.

"The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" is an interesting book to check out by the way.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Whatever the case may be, shouldn't this be in Beyond Dreaming?

Why not R/S? Can someone explain the difference between the two to me?

Hi Trolluz,

Well, your English is mostly fine, but I must admit, I read all the way through this expecting something quite different, because you had a mispelling all the way through! You kept referring to lucid dream helping with EXTERNAL life, which means the outer reality of our waking world, when I am pretty sure you meant ETERNAL reality, which means living forever. Is that correct?

Anyway, my take on this, and I'm not a Buddhist, but a Gnostic Christian/Native American... which makes me basically Christo-Pagan, is that we reincarnate back into the earth plane until we have become full-fledged adult responsible conscious human beings. It's not a one-time deal here, where you live once, and either go to Heaven or Hell, or are caught in some limbo until you're resurrected to one or the other. We have a prescribed pre-planned lesson program that we have to complete this lifetime, even though no one thought to give us a course syllabus. Somewhere deep down, we do know this. Lucid dreaming is a good thing, but it's not a key to the afterlife or to eternal life. There is also a lot more purpose to dreams than simply lucid dreaming, which is only one aspect of dreams.

I opened to lucid dreams with no effort, no self-programming, no incubations, none of the things that are talked about here, so I have a hard time understanding why everyone is doing all that. Really, a lot of things simply open up for a person when it's time for them to be able to work with them with full understanding. Our other dreams are just as important as lucid dreams! Also, lucidity in dreams should foster lucidity in waking life, so that we start seeing interactions with the Divine going on all around us.

Your ability to lucid dream does not affect the fact that you live after death. You simply *do*... death is simply a change, a transition, to another place, a discarding of a worn out body. What you encounter after death varies, of course. For some, they may have screwed up so badly, like my brother who was a serious drug addict and committed suicide by cocaine overdose, that they have some long and intensive work to do on the Other Side with help from guides and angels before they can reincarnate back into the earth plane. Part of what he has had to do includes watching over loved ones who were affected by his actions, and see just what those effects were. (I know this partly from him, as he has visited me, and partly from my guide, Leslie.) It's not all going to be instant Heaven or Nirvana vs. some nightmare place called Hell. There's work to do, and that work goes on. Eventually, all will be brought into a mature enlightened adult form, but that will take many lifetimes.

What we need to focus on more than just lucid dreams is how those lucid dreams do, in fact, help with your EXTERNAL reality. That should have been the right word if you really understand what life here is for. Our external reality is our classroom, the place where life lessons are taught and worked through. All of our dreams can help us to complete our life lessons if we work to understand the meanings of the dreams, and allow the dreams to change us for the better.

We don't need drugs for any of it, either. That is the wrong way to go. Herbs and aromatherapy are good things, if used to aid relaxation and healing and the like, but anything hallucinogenic is just not necessary. You can go into waking dreams by listening to music that includes drumming, or even just plain drumming CD's. I know Robert Moss puts out one of those, and it's available on his website <www.mossdreams.com>. I prefer mine with flutes and the like too, so generally go for Native American or Peruvian music, or music by Dave and Steve Gordon. That, and some lavender essential oil on a candle or in my aromatherapy diffuser, is all it takes. Then, I do it naturally in during dreamtime as well.

Anyway... think about how your dreams, both regular and lucid ones, do in fact, help your EXTERNAL life. Your ETERNAL life is a given, believe it or not, and you will eventually grow into it. LIFE goes on. It's a gift. Remember to thank your view of the Divine Spirit for it daily!

Hi JustBe,

We are never forgotten by our Creator, though often we do the forgetting that brings seeming separation. That separation is an illusion. All we need to do is turn and seek with a sincere heart, and we will, as Jesus promised, find.

Soul is a good term, or spirit, and so is the term Higher Self that many use. Our Higher Self is basically the part of us who has lived through all of our lifetimes, our true and whole selves, as opposed to the personas we put on when we enter a given lifetime. Our Higher Self knows fully what our own lesson plans are for this lifetime. That, too, can be accessed if we seek understanding of our own spiritual nature. Also, we have helpers available in the form of inner guides and angels. We are not forgotten! There are limits given however to how much input they can give us without our asking and our consent to interactions with us. Their input is mostly subtle, and requires paying attention to life.

We also do not cease to be at death. Some may go into a place to rest, a place like what Wiccans call "Summer", which fits to me, as it is like summer vacation from Earth school, or for some, maybe they need summer school to catch up on things they didn't complete during this lifetime. There is not a limit set or given to where we go after death. Many reincarnate almost immediately back into the earth plane, which is what I was told in a series of dreams, happened with my mom.

I do believe that finding and getting to know our Creator is all important. As a very loud inner voice woke me one morning, saying, "God is lonely without you!" LOL... it got my attention, and that set me on a new and wonderful path!

Originally Posted by JustBe

OK I hate to rain on your parade, but basically what your saying is that making it successfully into the afterlife is based upon learning to master lucid dream control.

First of all, for there to be an afterlife there would need to be some part of you that survives death; call it a soul if you will. If you have a soul that contains everything you are then what do you need a brain for? The souul should encapsulate your very being.

DMT is simply a hormone that alters the brains perception. Does it then alter the souls perception also.

My belief is that a person is a soul and at death everything you are ceases to be. Your hope therefore lies in finding and getting to know your creator so that you will be remembered by him when the time comes. If you do that successfully, then his promise is that you will live again.

But hey...that's just me. Believe what you need to to get you through life.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Why not R/S? Can someone explain the difference between the two to me?

Perhaps someone wanted to see the conversation thrive, and knew that in the R/S area it would not?

Really, these boards do rather artificially divide topics, though in some cases it seems to be about keeping the peace with minimal moderation.

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

Perhaps someone wanted to see the conversation thrive, and knew that in the R/S area it would not?

Really, these boards do rather artificially divide topics, though in some cases it seems to be about keeping the peace with minimal moderation.

It just seems to me that it's ridiculous to say that saying that the earth being 6000 years old is somehow worthy of the title of spirituality whereas the OP in this thread, which is vibing with serious spirituality, is only fit for "beyond dreaming". I don't buy that the pineal gland produces DMT (although I am open to the idea), but it is a fact that all of the precursors are present there.

This topic is at least trying to work within what we know about the physical world. It belongs in spirituality, not BD.

I'm busy now sadly, but I'll be back later to present my views on this avenue of thought.

My opinion is that lucid dreaming is a key to personal evolution, therefore evolution as a species, but not a key to eternal life, since we are all eternal anyway.

I definitely believe that lucid dreaming is important to us as a species, so people can understand the illusory nature of waking life. I like what everyone has said about the idea of the spiritual importance of lucid dreaming. It's very interesting, though I may only partially agree.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

My opinion is that lucid dreaming is a key to personal evolution, therefore evolution as a species, but not a key to eternal life, since we are all eternal anyway.

I definitely believe that lucid dreaming is important to us as a species, so people can understand the illusory nature of waking life. I like what everyone has said about the idea of the spiritual importance of lucid dreaming. It's very interesting, though I may only partially agree.

I agree with this. I feel as if the evolutionary goal of our species is to get beyond the all powerful act of "needing to survive" so all of our body tools and abilities can be extinguished so that we evolve into super brains in a giant mental network, with millions of brains connected by technology that has become a part of us, and kept alive by self sustaining machines. All of these super brains will exist in one super"dream" where we are all lucid and all living in a reality and communicating in total peace and harmony and happiness. Where we can have everything and interfere with no one and do nothing but exist in bliss for eternity.