• Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views




    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
    Results 1 to 25 of 57

    Thread: Dreamhackers

    1. #1
      Member
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      Posts
      25
      Likes
      1

      Dreamhackers

      Hi,

      in response to the dream mapping thread I'll post the information I read about the Dreamhackers (a group of Russian dreamers) and their discoveries.

      A person called Aelfrede writes:

      'I have some information that has been shared before on other forums. I'll post it here in installments. Please note I DID NOt write the stuff in brackets, some other guy did that. Here goes:


      "I (someone on some other forum) noticed that someone wrote that they didn't "understand the
      Dreamhackers", so I'm posting these edited posts to hopefully make
      clearer what they are actually saying, and also in the hope that they
      may show themselves again, and answer the points raised [bracketed]
      in the edit.

      #1

      "Hi.
      First, please forgive me for my weak knowledge of the english
      language, and for the fact that I am using an auto-translator. You
      may know that in Russia there is a group of strong dreamers
      called "Dreamhackers". If you have a interest in their achievements,
      I can tell you about them. This will be something new for you. [Not
      for everybody] But for now, I'll give you a small fragment from the
      ultimate source.
      Sergei Izrigi (group leader):

      Zero danger level.
      Preliminary analysis.


      Once upon a time there was a crazy hacker who got an idea to
      "break
      in" to the Dreaming world. He was an eccentric type-a wild
      mix of Don
      Quixote, Baron Munchausen- a fortunate adventurer who managed to
      come
      across one and a half million dollars of "easy" money! His
      name was
      Sam Gorbunkov. Or, maybe it was Sergei Izrigi? What difference does
      it make now?
      He organised six dreaming clubs, in Minsk, in Riga and in four major
      Russian cities. The guy hired 5 advertising agents and 16
      psychoanalysts who enticed people to the clubs and conducted
      questioning according to a method which was specially developed for
      the research. The conversations were recorded on audio and videotape,
      and then the tapes were sent to 6 analytical groups. 41 retired
      military analysts compiled their fancy classifications, extrapolated
      common patterns, and sent the results to their employer.
      Those were the great days-insane interest in the powerful
      project,
      combined with fatigue, irritation, and anger. People were arriving in
      a never-ending stream. Imagine a large well-lit conference hall, a
      huge table with food and drink set out in the middle, an atmosphere
      of friendship and warmth. Casual chit-chat, people meeting people,
      and of course, flirting. Then the questioning began, and people
      talked and talked and talked.

      "Psychologists nodded, asked their questions, the tapes were rolling.
      Everyone enjoyed being someone important for a change. People liked
      the feeling that their knowledge and experience was needed by
      someone. They shared it to the best of their abilities. More than
      that-it was hard to stop them. We heard stories of dead people on
      balconies, of chases through old ruins, flying over cities, and so on
      and so forth.
      After two weeks I began waiting for a sign to end this social
      experiment. The sign came in the flesh, a bodybuilder-type chap with
      a square face, and fists bigger than his head. I had just come to
      Riga to check on the local Dreaming club and stumbled upon this guy
      while walking in the hall.
      "Is this the Dreaming club?" he asked.
      "Yes sir, it is."
      "So..." he shouted... "You're the one who's sleeping with my
      wife?!"
      and his fist sent me flying across the hall. I spat out a tooth and
      decided that this was undoubtedly the sign I had been looking for.
      We called it a day, shut down the clubs, and started to analyse the
      results. The psychologist wrote up volumes, but the principle finding
      was simple. The dreams were a bit of talking, a bit of action and a
      fantastic clich-the same thoughts, the same plots, the same
      movements. When speaking of one hundred cases one cannot see many
      similarities; however, when it came to thousands of dreams the
      synchronicity was astonishing.
      For example, on February the 3rd 1994, a lot of people were dreaming
      about playing with children either on a construction site or amongst
      ruins. What was that? A "dream-movie" broadcast? Or some file that
      was stored on the "disk drive" of those people? Was that a
      correct
      interpretation of the data that was sent to them? Was it a warning?
      An instruction? Even now these questions remain unanswered. It's
      virgin territory for pioneers like you. The synchronicity issue had a personal touch. While reading the
      reports I came across a dream that resembled my own in some detail. A
      woman described sneaking inside a pyramid where, to her surprise, she
      found a little hen house. That was funny, a pyramid, ruthless guards,
      underground labyrinth and-a chicken farm. The fact is that I had
      almost exactly the same dream, only in my dream there were some cows
      present.
      I met the woman and we became friends. She entered the group of
      enthusiasts that began forming around me at that time. Her name was
      Alla-a bright star of a little town in the suburbs of Moscow.
      Later
      she became a dreamhacker and broke into the kernel of "dream
      security" which traces our conscious trips in the world of forces
      and
      energies, the world of our private, collective and social
      personnifications.
      Alla- a tragic fate, and a rebellious spirit who broke the chains
      of
      physical illness. She is the real-life example that a true hacker is
      a warrior. We will meet her later, in the next chapter, but for now
      let's get back to some analysis."

      To be continued....'

      DS

    2. #2
      Member
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      Posts
      25
      Likes
      1
      I could send all the information at once, or is there a limit to the amount you can put in one post? Or I could send lots of posts in quick succession. Although that might be off putting because there is quite a lot of information. You all say what you prefer.

    3. #3
      Banned
      Join Date
      Nov 2007
      LD Count
      im here for you
      Location
      australia
      Posts
      3,677
      Likes
      415
      Quote Originally Posted by dreamingstar View Post
      I could send all the information at once, or is there a limit to the amount you can put in one post? Or I could send lots of posts in quick succession. Although that might be off putting because there is quite a lot of information. You all say what you prefer.
      I'd prefer one long post of information.
      Of course, you haven't really posted any info. It's just a big story.
      I still don't know what 'dreamhackers' are, but I imagine they have something to do with shared dreaming, no?

    4. #4
      Member
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      Posts
      25
      Likes
      1
      Quote Originally Posted by no-Name View Post
      I'd prefer one long post of information.
      Of course, you haven't really posted any info. It's just a big story.
      I still don't know what 'dreamhackers' are, but I imagine they have something to do with shared dreaming, no?
      Dreamhackers are a group of Russian dreamers who made some intriguing discoveries about dreams that help get lucid more and have much more control over dreams. I'll send it all in one post then

      DS

    5. #5
      Member
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      Posts
      25
      Likes
      1
      Continuing from last post....

      "At that time scientists openly discussed dreams and published their
      research. The military paid almost no attention at all to the
      subject. However, in 1995 the situation changed dramatically.
      Hundreds of files describing the relations between "reality" and
      the "Dreaming world" were removed from the archives.

      Some examples of direct correlations:

      a) How do the dreams of ordinary people differ from those of rape
      victims?
      b) Dreams of the survivors of concentration camps and those who
      witnessed mass executions?
      c) Dreams of the teens with the symptoms of progressive hearing loss?
      d) Influence of sadism and masochism on dreams of people of different
      age groups;
      e) Connection between vestibular activity and the frequency
      of "transparent" dreams;
      f) Influence of the menstrual hormonal circle on the content of
      dreams;


      Some opposing examples:

      a) The rle of dreams in stress adaptation;
      b) The influence of dreams on creativity and the conception of
      metaphors;
      c) Incorporation of "solutions" from the "dreamworld" to "everyday
      reality".
      d) The influence of different types of dreams on hormonal activity.

      However, we made it just in time. All scientific knowledge
      accumulated by humanity over the last 30 centuries found its place in
      50 thick files titled "Archives". The work of hundreds of
      hired
      specialists who spent their days flying up-and-down the ladders
      between the racks of tall shelving was not in vain.

      "I found myself immersed in a sea of theories. Articles praising
      Calvin Hall and Bergson were followed by critiques of Freud.
      "The content of dreams is a product of memories randomly chosen
      by a
      biological process" reputable scientists wrote.
      "No way!" others replied. "You forgot to take into account
      the
      aspects of creative incubation and the REM-dream function. The brain
      itself organises the neuron signals, a cogniscent co-relation which
      creates interruptions and inconsistencies during dreams."
      "Nonsense!" other opponents insisted. "We should consider
      REM-dreams,
      NREM-dreams and the waking state as the expressions of one
      undifferentiated state, because EEG graphs clearly show 7 to 9 Hz
      peaks between the waking state, the NREM-dream, and the REM-dream, in
      the same frequency that was noted during meditation."
      However, every theory is just a possibility determined by a set of
      chosen facts. That is, the number of theories could be infinite, and
      all of them could be correct in some way.
      At the same time the "creeping silence" was all over Russia.
      The "science of dreaming" was ripped-off down to the last file,
      hidden away, and shuffled into the back of a dark closet. Professors
      stole the last of the equipment. Assistants were drinking ethanol and
      selling the last discoveries. Maybe because of all that, my friend,
      one rich and crazy hacker said:
      "Enough is enough! Let someone else make their fortune on the
      blood
      of Russian boys and their mothers' tears! I will invest in the
      development of the science of "controlled dreams", so everyone
      who's
      fed up with the nonsense of world leaders can have a place where he
      can go-the place of dreams and knowledge, a beautiful and
      mysterious
      El Dorado".
      What was said was done. In a little over a period of one month we
      collected all the then-available information about Dreams and
      Dreaming. Our conclusion was that Dreaming was an analogy of
      accessing a computer text file in "read only" mode.["Machines are
      extensions of the senses"] Now, five years later, some American
      scientists have come to the same conclusion.
      Dreaming is the description, the interpretation of influences which
      are passed to our consciousness by our brain. The Dreaming world is
      an illusion, maya. In fact, each dream is a "bubble of
      perception",
      embodying the description of some place, the scene, the characters,
      the emotions and feelings. What we call the "Dreaming world" is just
      a handful of "bubbles"-a void-within-a-void, separated from
      chaos by
      a thin film of colour.

      Those familiar with computers will know that a data file cannot
      influence the operating system. However it can become the "lock
      pick"
      once you add on macros. Hackers use this trick to break in to any
      secured system, and we decided to use it to "break in" to Dreaming.
      This is why Don Juan told Castaneda to look for his hands in
      dreams-
      he insisted on remembering about it while Dreaming, in bringing on
      the awareness, the macro "hands" in the content of the dream,
      and
      gradually creating the "worm' in the programming of his
      conscience.
      One might say it's the craziest idea they've ever heard. Well,
      considering that it came from our crazy hacker, it is not surprising.
      The important thing is that my friend was rich enough to be able to
      test his hypothesis.
      In order to find a method different from the one used by Carlos
      Castaneda, our analyst suggested to use a "CAR", a "Creation of
      Artificial Replacement". This method implies introducing the "active"
      into the system, which in its turn will create an artificial space, a
      place for future action.
      We decided to replace a handful of "bubbles of perception"
      with an
      artificial "controlled" space, or more accurately, with an exact copy
      of the human conscience matrix which describes the dreaming world for
      us. Each of us had to create a map of Dreams, and place all
      the "bubbles" in one "picture".

      Oh, how nave we were in our vanity of pioneers. After years
      passed,
      we realised that we had only been repeating the Toltec technique of
      Recapitulation, with the only difference that we were recapitulating
      not our lives, but our Dreams. And do you know what? Those Toltecs
      were the real hackers.

      Drawing a "Dreaming-map".

      Drawing a map of any kind is not the goal, just a means to an end.
      While drawing a map, you get acquainted with the surroundings, and
      later find yourself in those new surroundings. Let's imagine an
      ordinary PC game quest, where the gameplay space is obscured by
      the "fog of war". This may sound far-fetched, but is a
      suitable
      analogy with the Dreamworld. Is there anywhere, or anyone who has
      ever played such a PC game, who found one where the mission consisted
      in uncovering the map? No. But instead of that, there are a lot of
      games, where by getting rid of the "fog of war" and
      uncovering the
      map, we find the solution for the "quest mission". The real gamer
      knows that it is impossible to achieve the goal without using the
      map. Spatial orientation saves your time and energy, while the
      absence of the map transforms the interesting game into a boring
      wandering-round-in-circles. Drawing the map is the method, but not
      the aim. Moreover, the map is not the Dreamworld, just as the globe
      is not the Earth. The Dreaming-map is a type of space created in
      vitro, which only in a varying degree reflects the description of our
      Dreams. The map is not able to describe all of your Dreams. It is
      limited by the choice of the basic elements. For instance, you can
      draw the map of the terrain with the complexity of your feelings, or
      you can direct your attention to the other components of the
      Dream. "Dreamhackers" stopped on drawing the map of the
      terrain. But
      why did they choose this way? They decided that it could be used as a
      method of Not-doing for Dream description. In this case the dreamer
      excludes a part of the inner dialogue, the part connected with
      the "spirit entities" of the dream (the term coined by the
      Dreamhackers). According to the hackers' opinion, the Dream is the
      bubble of perception which includes a small terrain with such
      attributes as "spirits" and background. Some Dreams don't have
      those
      attributes.

      Let's run off this topic for a bit and discuss different
      classifications of Dreams. In fact, there are thousands of them. For
      instance, Partris Garfield ( ) offers a
      classification of "universal dreams", which stresses emotional
      constituents, and divides all kinds of Dreams into pairs of
      opposites: Dreams about falling and Dreams about flying; Dreams about
      losses and Dreams about acquisitions etc. It seems a pat method of
      classification, but it numbers 36 different types of Dream.
      "Hackers"
      devised their own classification and narrowed it down to 4 types:

      1) "Loops of delirium": Usually, these dreams are extremely
      schematic, and have a common plot. As a rule, people have these
      dreams during illness, during periods of being laid-up in bed, or
      periods of hunger and starvation. These dreams can be remembered
      perfectly. In most of these cases "loops" occur during the
      5-6 REM
      periods. As far as beginners go, they are practically useless. As for
      experienced users, it is a wonderful chance to jump into a "lucid"
      Dream. It's interesting that "loops" frequently have minimal
      background, and almost always have no "Dream entities".
      "Hackers"
      consider this type of Dream to be equivalent to a "checkout"
      programme.

      2) "Talking" Dreams, whose content, 80%-90% of the time, consists of
      tittle-tattle, monologue, and dialogue. Usually, people don't
      remember them. These Dreams can be had during the 2-3-4 REM periods.
      In the case of an active Dream practitioner, these dreams transform
      into types 3) and 4);

      3) "Bright" dreams: dreams with a deep background, a complex plot,
      and picturesque "Dreaming entities". These dreams can be usually had
      during a 1, 5, or 6 REM period. They supply the Dreamer with the main
      material for map creation.

      4) "Transparent Dreams". They are usually very rare in the initial
      stages of practice. People remember them almost perfectly, and often
      interpret them as lucid dreams, because a transparent dream involves
      moments of realising that you are asleep.

      NB: "Hackers" consider that "controlled dreams" are not
      dreams at
      all. As I have already said, it is only one of the available
      classifications. Mostly, they don't differ from the others and I
      offer it to you only to show all the limitations of dream
      cartography, which mainly, as you have already understood, uses only
      types 3) and 4). But why do we need this beta-version (the cut down
      model)? And what about creating something more global? For example, a
      description which recalls the Mendeleyev Table, where the combined
      energy of feelings, of the columns of visualized images, and of the
      concentration on specific energy centres of the body could identify
      the paradigm and orientation of your feelings. All these challenges
      are available to you. You have already lived out a third of your life
      in your dreams and are an expert in this field. You can create you
      own models and classifications. There is the rule of the chinese
      philosopher U-at first, you plough the field, and only after that
      can
      the field feed you. You should work on your model if you want your
      model to work on you. "Hackers" are lazy dogs! [So are all
      Dreamers! ;o)] That's why, they have created this
      "beta-version".
      Their method is not any "gate of Dreaming", but a common underground
      passage under the wall of the unknown.
      I have met a lot of regular guys, who with varying degrees of
      diligence used the method of "finding their hands in dreams".
      In
      fact, only a few of them have achieved any success. Two or three
      successful dreams in a year reflects the most typical situation. Of
      course, there were some lucky devils, who managed to do it without
      any efforts (or with efforts). And in the same time thousands of
      people left the "Toltec way", considering themselves to be incapable
      and weak. After that, they hunted for explanations for their "bad
      luck", but in the deepest part of their soul they longed for those
      amazing possibilities, which were described by Castaneda.
      "Hackers"
      offer them one more chance-entering the world of lucid dreams
      through
      the narrow manhole of a substitute method, created in vitro. If the
      Eagle is satisfied by the substitution, created by Recapitulation,
      then why shouldn't he swallow the surrogate of the recapitulated
      dream?

      Well, let's enter the underground passage. We will begin our
      quest
      and dispel (a bit) the "fog of war". In other words, we will
      just
      look around.

      What does the dreamer need to practice the cartography? Firstly, he
      needs to keep a diary of his dreams. Keep it near to your bed.
      Secondly, he needs a pencil with a rubber. If you ask your memory and
      subsequently remember one of your dreams you should make a note.
      Firstly, you should draw the plan of the terrain-a chain of
      mountains, a lake, a glade with a road. If you see yourself in a
      building, don't waste your time on drawing different
      rooms-mark this
      house and everything which surrounds it. If you see a comb, which
      transforms into a mountain, then call it comb/mountain. You
      mustn't
      be too particular. But the more strength of concentration you put in
      at the beginning, the quicker you will progress. Secondly, write
      titles on your plan, which illustrate the details of the landscape. A
      month later you will look at your picture as if for the first time,
      and your titles will bring forth recollections. Thirdly, you should
      briefly describe the plot of the dream. For instance, "The
      meeting
      with an "Ally". It looked at me and I became very afraid of it. Fear
      took my attention away into another bubble of the perception (into
      another dream scenario)". It is very useful to number every
      described
      dream. While describing the dream you don't need to use cardinal
      points. Later, some interesting transformations in your gathered
      dream collection will take place. Some of your dream bubbles will
      interflow. For example, you had a dream about your institute, later,
      about your native house, then the third dream, which united three
      dreams in a chain of a united space. It's better to remember the
      last
      dream. So you should learn how to awake very softly. Plug in your
      intention to "remember all of your dreams" after every
      awakening.
      Just hold on to the fragile recollection of the scene, and put the
      full dream into your perception. A little bit of practice and you
      will invent your own method of recollection. The main point is making
      notes daily. If you didn't manage to catch the dream of the
      previous
      night then describe another dream, which you remembered. But do it
      every day! (Or try to!).

      Let's diverge a bit and speak about orientation. Let us assume
      that
      you have already gathered hundreds of described dreams and you still
      don't have any idea how to place them on your map. Well, perhaps
      several dreams interflowed, but others are still up-in-the-air. OK.
      You have two possibilities: to continue creating your map from
      thousands of personal puzzles, or you can use the hackers' experience
      and in that way save 3-4 years of your life. Those who prefer
      the "purity of the experiment", should choose the first
      option. As
      for others, they will get dozens of options around which they can
      group their described dreams.
      At the initial phase of our research we engaged several psychologists
      to try to solve our problems of orientation. They did a great amount
      of research, recruiting our gays and volunteers who didn't know
      anything about the project. For instance, they used to gather a group
      of ten muscovites and ask them to describe a particular
      memorial. "How do you see it and from which side do you see it?
      From
      which direction do you come to it? Let's describe one more
      memorial.
      From which side do you see it?" And so on and so forth. It was an
      ineffective effort. Finally, the experts made the following
      conclusion: everybody in a specific period of time learns to
      orientate by the cardinal points. People choose two points-their
      own
      position, and another object, which is titled as "north"
      or "south", "east" or "west" in relation to
      their position. The
      following orientation is lined up according to this object; to be
      exact, the definitive direction turns out to be the icing on the
      cake. And experiments in these groups confirmed this theory to an
      extent, but it was neither hot nor cold for us.
      "Hackers" divided into 2 bands. One of them practiced the
      already-
      described method of dream coalescence. The other one posted numbers
      of dreams on their maps, pinning their faith on intuition. The first
      method brought a great amount of interesting invention. The second,
      although bringing a mass of commotion, finally appeared to be no
      worse then the first.

      Well... so what "inventions" were made?

      1) The Dreamworld (or rather the model which described it) appeared
      to be a rather small area. For instance, there was only one city
      there. I have lived in many countries. In Russia, I haven't only
      been
      in the far north and in the far east. Nevertheless, there is only one
      city on the map: the embodiment of all the cities I have ever seen,
      with elements of St.Petersburg, Minsk, of Kasbah [Where is Kasbah?]
      and Tashkent. Transitions and interflows of these places in-Dreaming
      are amazingly harmonic and natural. Furthermore there are a lot
      of "cul-de-sac bubbles" (dreams) round the City-summer camps,
      friends' houses, directions in the area to places of which I had
      heard, but hadn't visited yet.

      2) The centre of the Dreamworld is the house of the Dreamer. The
      edges of the map are called "border ranges" (usually mountain
      chains,
      seas, rivers, dunes, and deserts). There is nowhere farther than
      these "border ranges". In this very moment "Hackers"
      know only that
      northern and southern "border ranges" are immutable. With the
      practice the northern "border range" moves slightly further
      afield.
      There are some "blind spots" on the eastern "border
      range" (a highly-
      restricted area!).

      3) There are dozen of places on the Dream map which don't exist
      in
      the "real" world. For instance, the zone of cataclysms, labyrinths
      etc. [Caves?] which I have already mentioned.

      4) And last but not least: we nearly went crazy when we found out
      that our maps had common basic details. Some special places are
      present on nearly every map. For example, K. writes about a huge
      building, which has a link with a stadium. And I have this formation
      too. And, as I know where this place is situated, I can give K. some
      useful advice and in this way I can help her create a map. And, in
      the case of telling K. about the nearest landmarks, she may have had
      a very interesting insight-she came to know that she had already
      visited those landmarks thousands of times, and consequently she was
      caught up by a wonderful and inexpressible feeling of dream
      recollection. Another "invention" is connected to two buildings-a
      sanctuary and a jail (the sanctuary could be in the form of
      "police"
      or a "computer"; the "jail" could be smart, evil, and
      destructive: a
      concentration camp with a bigot-executioner; an army college etc.).
      You will find a lot in the first place. As for the second place, you
      will have already visited it many times, and loosen up a lot.[What
      does this mean?] Then "hackers" found out that if they got
      their
      practice right (by searching for necessary places and avoiding
      unnecessary places) a Dreamer becomes involved in a shocking process.
      Each new recollection and description of a dream will rope you into a
      chain of very old recollections (ten or twenty years old)! Hundreds
      of places, where you have been hundreds of times will be revealed in
      a bright flash! In such moments a man lives through a very powerful
      state. ["It is like a 'weekly Satori' "] You will not feel euphoria,
      but rather a strange thirst-faster! More! The everyday "reality"
      of
      your family, friends, your job, the "real" world will leave you. You
      are neither here nor there-on a strange borderline. Dreams become
      very transparent. You remember yourself in a Dream every night.
      Achievements turn out to be heady. The words of Castaneda and don
      Juan gain a new meaning. You see something in them that you
      didn't
      manage to catch before. BAH! Subsequent collapse into an insufferable
      depression-you want to commit suicide. And yet again you have to gather up your strength bit-by-
      bit and continue your practice until new ups-and-downs come, breaking
      certain membranes in yourself. And later you take your map, knead it
      like a piece of dough, and use it purposefully. Then you don't
      need
      it any more. By this time, as a rule, there is no "fog of
      war" on it.
      Some time later you turn your attention to those strange "blind
      spots" on the "border range" of the Tonal. But, as the
      saying goes,
      that's another story.

      Dreams consist of a set of components: subjects and
      emotions; "characters"; locality/terrain; colour and sound;
      nonconformities; breaks/ruptures; passageways, and so forth. In
      contemporary culture, dream-sleeps are usually used for divination,
      for the prediction of future events. Recalling the pair of "Bright
      dreams", and "meanings of dreams", you look in a "dream-book" and
      find their interpretations. Everything is clear and
      understandable: "to dream of an island indicates the finding of rest,
      freedom and the deserved appreciation of others, after much anxiety."
      Or: "to see chains betokens slander and treacherous intentions of
      those jealous of you." Don't do what I did, that is, don't look in
      another "dream interpretation" book. Don't make the same mistake, or
      you will find a different interpretation: "an island: this means
      changes in your personal life, separation and loss; divorce. And: "a
      chain is a symbol of undivided faithfulness." As soon as you compare
      the interpretations of two different dream-interpretation books, the
      method of divination loses half of its effectiveness. This is its
      main failing

      Dreamhackers decided to go another way. We wanted to
      create "technology" which would satisfy all requirements and rules,
      as described in the books of Castaneda. We conducted serious studies
      and then arrived at some interesting conclusions/derivations:

      1) Sleep is a "protected programme":

      On average, man spends a third of his life asleep. Each night we
      participate in some mysterious process, of which we can only recall
      fragments with great difficulty. Many people assert that they do not
      generally "dream". This is a fallacy. Science explains that each of
      us experiences 5-6 dream-sleeps per night. The problem lies in
      remembering.

      This odd forgetfulness in respect of sleep can be explained in
      different ways. Psychologists say that survival is the primal
      instinct of man. Since this function, in essence, is achieved in
      the "waking" state, human consciousness abstracts and removes this
      secondary role of sleep, and frequently it does not fix or "record"
      the memories of events we experience in dreams. The severe conditions
      of life itself are so draining, that sleep becomes a prohibitive
      luxury for many people. Therefore within a dream they lose their
      colourfulness and are subverted into dim reflections of everyday
      concerns. Some scientists are convinced that the process of
      assimilating sleep is connected with one's living environment. If you
      live in the city, the variety of "realities" distracts you from the
      experience of dream-sleep. But there is some value in your succombing
      to the lure of the "civilized world", be it your house, a Tibetan
      Lhasa, or the Sonoran desert. Consciousness changes priorities, and,
      avoiding boredom, it can bring you to the "internal experience".

      Mystics and occultists adhere to another point of view. For them the
      world of dreams is a special space, in which their own laws of
      perception are manifest. Special methods for the fixation of one's
      attention are required for the transfer of information from the world
      of dream-sleep into the world of "reality". Otherwise, as Mefodius
      Solunskian asserts, a dreamer will repeat the parable of the
      emaciated little mouse, that easily slips through a hole in a basket
      of grain, but after eating his fill, cannot escape back through the
      hole because of his bloated size. "So it is with the one who "reads"
      dream-sleep...hungry for knowledge, he will easily traverse the
      adjacent gap between sleep and waking "reality", but the energy he
      expends, and the fruits of his labours that he gathers there, will
      prevent him from returning with his hard-gotten gains, because one
      can only take away what one originally entered with. Therefore it is
      necessary either to throw away these gains, in order to return, or to
      remain there with them forever." (extract from "Khazar's Dictionary").

      Dreamhackers consider that the system of human perception is similar
      to a "packing programme", which depicts perceived information in the
      form of specific symbols and figures. This accelerates data
      processing. In the state of everyday wakefulness people use one set
      of "packing", whilst using others in the state of sleep. This
      difference in the methods of information-processing hampers the
      process of recollection. Nevertheless, the problem can be solved,
      partially or completely. We know that the fact of compiling a dream-
      diary improves recollection of dream-sleep: your attention, which you
      focus on your records, increases the priority of the "decoding
      programme", which in turn accelerates fulfilment of this objective.
      Dreamers and stalkers (Castaneda terminology) generally change the language of description
      for dream-sleep, and separate "realities" like this make it possible
      for them to combine two parts of their existence into one-into
      dream-
      sleep, or into Dreaming Awake.

      Difficulties in the transfer of information are just the tip of the
      iceberg. We, as users of the "programme" of sleep, are almost
      completely deprived of any elements of control. People can enter into
      sleep and be bounced (an analogy of "start" and "log out").
      Everything else depends on the "sleep programme". In the everyday
      waking state, we usually wake up in the same place where we fell
      asleep. Having relative confidence and trust in the subject of the
      everyday chronological sequentiality of our "waking" state, our
      attention clearly records daily events, creating from them a
      continuous sequential library of action and movement. You can easily
      describe how and why these events are assembled from point A to point
      B, although every rule has its exception of course. Alcohol,
      narcotics, or the consequences of illness and disease are capable of
      ripping up the continuum of the "waking state". A brick that falls on
      your head can easily disrupt the fixation of your attention.
      Nevertheless, in this waking state we usually possess a certain
      control over the situation, albeit sometimes partial, but
      still "concrete".

      Sleep converts us into marionettes, entering into a dream scene that
      we do not know, in whatever place it may be. The collection of
      subjects and characters is tied to us by our will. The programme
      transfers us from one scene to another in a completely illogical
      fashion. We appear first in the role of spectator, then in the role
      of participant in the event(s). Sleep monitors us, making it
      necessary to be subordinated to its commands and rules. Although here
      there are exceptions. On rare occasions, some people can "order" the
      subject of a dream-sleep.Others can introduce insignificant elements
      of control into their dreams. However, any prolonged efforts
      to "tame" dream-sleep cause "retaliatory attacks". This is one
      additional criterion of the "protection" of the dream's programme.

      Each researcher of dream-sleep will, after a time,
      encounter "guardians".
      These "keepers", "defenders ", "monstrosities", can frighten dreamers
      who begin to study the special features of dream spaces. I have
      personally known children who, after encountering "guardians" did not
      sleep for 3-4 days. The fear experienced by them led to nervous
      disorders and even in one case to a serious disease.

      Psychologists assert that "guardians" are the personnification of our
      problems, the output of our unconscious. Mystics and occultists
      indicate that these "keepers" and "monstrosities" are astral essences
      or forces, which can take on the form of terrible and dangerous
      monsters in-Dreaming. It is interesting to note that in our time
      the "output of the unconscious" is considered as the
      more "scientific", but not the "contact with the astral essence". So
      much so that if you describe the "security" of the dream programme
      using "personnifications" and the "human unconscious", they will
      award you any scientific degree you want. But if you address the
      question of these "astral essences", they will label you as a
      charlatan, or as a victim of the predilections of the antique.
      Concerning this question, Dreamhackers have their own point of view,
      as I will describe later.

      The sleep programme possesses one additional level of "protection".
      At this specific level of study, a dreamer falls under the influence
      of the "forces of fate". His life becomes confusion. He risks his
      health and prosperity, and of those who are close to him. This "karma
      racketeering" can be perceived as a "test of maturity" or as
      an "obstacle which hardens the spirit". Honestly speaking, this turn
      of events was a completely unexpected contingency to us. We sustained
      large losses. [What does this mean?] But let us become acquainted
      with some other conclusions of the dreamhackers.

      2) Sleep: the "bubble".

      The "physical" space of a separately-undertaken dream is limited.
      Actually, this is a definite polygon, which in certain cases is
      reduced to a commonplace pyramid, with the effect of "flat vision":
      when, for example, you find yourself located on one apex, and
      the "dream scene", the "sleep picture", is projected onto the plane
      formed by the other apexes. However, in lucid dream-sleep the
      programming is so fixed that the space is described by a very complex
      structure-an almost perfect sphere. Nevertheless, if you reach
      its
      boundaries, space begins to change or to be distorted, and the
      dreamer (in the majority of the cases) passes into another
      "bubble"-
      into another scene of dream-sleep.

      Let us assume that I have a dream in which I am Rambo, fleeing from
      the enemy. Before me appears a low forest, through which must be the
      swamp, and then our base camp. I hear the snapping of branches behind
      me. A "shadow" slides first to my right,
      then to my left, but the lighting does not change. I go another 10 metres, and the terrain suddenly
      begins to slope upwards. The forest on this steep slope becomes
      almost impervious. The path disappears under the roots of an enormous
      tree. The slope of the mountain forces me to turn and go back twenty
      metres. I turn around and approach a bookshelf, and pull out a book
      with the name "Physics of the eighth ricochet".

      This is a normal dream-sleep, where I survive the closure of
      the "bubble" of the dream. As you can see, there was a complex set of
      elements: sonic and light formulation, subject, my thoughts and
      expectations. Then, when I reached the boundary of the dream-space,
      the terrain was transformed, after which I transferred into
      another "bubble", with the room, the window and the bookshelf.

      As Dreamhackers, we loved the term "bubble". We used it right up to
      recent times when friends reminded us that this determination of
      the "bubble of perception" was devised by Carlos Castaneda. He used
      it in another context, and we seemingly introduced confusion into the
      already-accepted terminology. We thought it necessary to change this
      designation. Now we use two separate terms: the "bubble of sleep" and
      the "sphere of perception". On a personal note, I prefer the former
      of the two, because the space of a perceived dream-sleep is rarely
      spherical.

      3) The programme of dream-sleep has many blemishes, "bugs" and
      omissions.

      Once I sat in Irkutsk airport and was thinking about sudden changes
      in the landscape in the bubbles of dreams. And there in the airport,
      it hit me! Yes, it was the same the problem of polygonal texturing!
      In the three-dimensional graphic for creating virtual worlds two
      methods are used: voxelic and polygonal. They are distinguished by
      the method of construction of the graphic. In a voxel graphic, the
      basic construction unit of a "voxel" is used. (Voxel=Volume of pixel)
      A volumetric point, or to be more precise, usually a coloured cube.
      Units are constructed from voxels as if they were cuboid pieces of
      Lego. The weakness of this method shows in the scale of the object.
      With an increase in size (by moving closer to the object depicted)
      the constituents become a mass of squares.

      Using a polygonal graphic as a basis leads to a polygonal
      structure-a
      polygon in space. In order to create an artificial world, an enormous
      quantity of polygons is required. Let us assume we have to build
      several houses in a virtual space. In the graphics editor we sketch a
      picture with the texture, and "stretch" it to the flat quadrangular
      polygons. We stick coloured "wall-paper" on their white walls. As a
      result, a fraction of a virtual world is obtained.

      But all this is theory, and in practice, texture is stored in the
      memory of a video card. With the formation of an image of each point
      of the screen there is a selected colour, which corresponds to
      a "texel"-the fixed byte of texture in the memory. In computer
      graphics there are several methods of texturing. However, in dreams
      this process frequently gives distortions, inherent in linear
      sampling, which is the quickest, but also the most primitive method.
      This makes it possible to draw a parallel: the strange transformation
      of landscape in dreams could be explained not by the special quality
      of sleep, but by certain omissions of "programmers".

      One additional omission of dreams is visible in the illumination of
      polygons (or the bubbles of sleep). At its simplest, we frequently
      perceive in a "flat" visual manner, where the polygon has only one
      degree of brightness, or an analogue of the Gouraud System of
      Shading, with which the apexes of polygons are shown up. In such
      cases we usually see a darkened centre and vividly illuminated
      angles. The presyncopal (decreases in blood pressure in the brain)
      states of consciousness are an example of this second type.

      Furthermore, in dreams there are rather poor conditions
      of "smoothing" (by anti-aliasing). If you try to draw a circle on the
      earth while you are Dreaming, then you will understand what I mean.
      And the greater the diameter of circle, the greater you will realise
      this omission of the "programmers". It seems to me that don Juan knew
      about this special feature of dreams. For this very reason he forced
      Castaneda to draw circles around his house.

      As soon as I published these findings on certain different Internet
      forums, dedicated to the techniques of Dreaming, several
      corroborating posts appeared.

      "Hello Sergei!" wrote the eminent russian astronomer
      Andrei. "Recently in my dreams I flew above the city. I was struck by
      the sight of a blue sky with snowy clouds. As far as colours and
      nuances were concerned, everything was OK. But the image? You know,
      it was just like a voxel graphic! Large rectangular pixels, bricks,
      as if I were focussing on the picture with a powerful zoom lens. I
      had read your letter and remembered about what you said about this.
      Then everything was fine-tuned, the clouds adopted a "normal" mode.
      But at first, there was actual voxel drawing!"

      "Hi, SI. I noticed a certain anomaly in a dream-sleep. It was tied in
      to the light switch. I could turn off the light, but couldn't be
      included in it." [NB Don't understand what is meant here]

      "Yoyo! I detected something amusing..." wrote a pal. "It is
      interesting, why is it like this? In the film "The Matrix" this
      defect would be called a "failure in the system". To explain: I was
      transported to a house, where I looked for a specific person. Not
      thinking for long, I decided to peep in the windows. The house had
      lots of levels. On the street it was late evening. I rose to the
      level of the second floor and began to inspect the illuminated
      windows. In the first I noticed the design of the wallpaper, the bed,
      the shutters on the door, and a cat. I rushed to the next window, and
      there was the same: wallpaper, bed, shutters, cat... Is that it? A
      shortage of subjects?"

      Here is a letter from a remarkable dreamer: "In one of my "aware"
      dreams I set myself the goal to reach the edge of the bubble. The
      following effect appeared as I approached the edge: the
      surrounding "reality" semi-morphed into a labyrinth. It was most
      important for me here was not to give in, and not to change
      direction. Like, more convenient paths appear, but if you go on them,
      you will begin to meander and will not have time to reach your
      objective. Nearer towards the end the terrain had a tendency to slope
      upwards, and having risen upward a little myself, at long last I saw
      the horizon. Immediately ,the effect of insufficient texturing "swam"
      out, the effect about which Sergei Izrigi has written. In the place
      where the earth "connected" with the sky, the "developers of the
      programme" had made rather poor resolution, and there was an effect,
      the same as in a computer game: from a distance everything is normal,
      but up close appear pixels on a giant screen. After breaking through
      the "cloth" (bubble), I saw a stream of black liquid. After diving
      there, I floated with the flow. I had the thought that
      somewhere/somehow it would carry me out. My sight was turned off
      immediately-there remained only the sensation of touch, if you
      can
      call it such. After two minutes of this "free floating", I felt
      a "feeler" touching my foot. I stretched out towards it, and groped a
      creature, like one of those which told Doc (a Dreamhacker) to stand
      aside. It burnt me with its feelers a few times, and I decided to
      wake myself up from any further "sin"..."

      Later, when the dreamhackers mastered group-dreaming, they revealed
      new "bugs" in the sleep programme:"

      a) When you enter into a "controlled" dream (for example in order to
      absorb another man into the joint dream), then, put simply, you'll be
      surprised at the roughness and scant nature of the formation of
      the "bubble". Usually the sleeper is absorbed by some
      particular part. His attention is fixed on the sense of subject, the
      sensations and the means. From
      his "viewpoint", the visitor sees only situation, and it is
      necessary to say that this is complete hack work. The sleeper can
      be bathing in gold and be in a wonderful fairytale palace, but this
      illusion does not act on the visitor. It testifies that the formation
      of the "bubble" is poor, the subject primitive, and conversations a
      real absurdity. It has similarities, but the "sleep programme"
      is not formulated for joint dreaming.

      b) If a group of five or more men is assembled in a group-dream,
      there appears what we have termed a "satellite": a definite
      personnified force, whose purpose is, to date, incomprehensible. It accompanies the
      group, sometimes warns about danger, but in essence, just observes.
      Doc called this phenomenon a "virtual rascal". This "satellite"
      appears in the form of a girl, a small animal (a dog, or cat) or as a
      bird. Possibly, this is some failure in the "programme", a type of
      echo from the joint emanations of our consciousness.

      THE "CRACK" IN THE DREAM'S PROGRAMME.
      So, each night we experience five to six dream-sleeps, each one
      consisting of one or more scenarios (the so-called "bubbles of
      dreams"). If one considers that on average we pass through
      20 "bubbles" in every night's sleep, then we will experience 7300 of
      these per annum. Daily, a novice dreamer can recall two to three
      scenarios. Long practice helps to bring this number to
      twelve "bubbles". Here are the initial conditions for our study.

      But how can we study the phenomenon of dream-sleeps? First of all, we
      can collect subjects, themes. Or we can try to describe the
      atmosphere of the scene, and put it into a more complex
      categorisation. Or we can detach ourselves from thought and
      supposition, trying to leave aside 'known' interpretations, and thus
      approach the universal "cosmic language". All of this is worthy of
      research. But, being dreamhackers, my friends took another route.
      They decided to focus their attention on the "dream space", the
      actual layout of the scenario.

      Let us hypothesise that you have a dream in which you meet a friend
      on some unknown street. You have a conversation about the "Tibetan
      sharks" [Who are they?] and their connection with the Buddhistic
      Sutra of "Final Enlightenment". Next, four raiders appear, who
      proceed to rob an adjacent jewellery store. Terrible scenes of
      shooting occur, but you nonchalantly continue your conversation. The
      nose of your friend increases in size continually and this confuses
      you a little. You look to the side, noticing a beautiful monument and
      a flabby old lady on a bench. Then you look up at the low yellow
      cloud, and you are in a new scene. A strange rustling noise behind
      you frightens you. You are taken in, and find yourself back in your
      old school classroom. Several iron cots are arranged instead of the
      desks in the room. A rat sits on one of them. It holds a pencil in
      its claws, and is sharpening the pencil with its teeth. You remember
      that the Biology office was located here before. Something is not
      right in this room. It becomes uncomfortable. You rapidly go out into
      the corridor and find yourself in the hall of a large store. Crowds
      of people pass by, mocking you with their stares. Suddenly you
      realise that you are standing in your underwear. The surge of complex
      feelings and emotions forces you to wake up.

      Here we have three "bubbles": "street", "class" and "store". Each of
      the bubbles has its limited space. Let's try to describe them in more
      detail. In the first scene you memorised the street and the landmarks
      located in it: the bank, the monument, the bench, and so forth. In
      the second "bubble", the space is limited by the walls of the
      classroom. In the third, by the boundaries of the hall of the
      store. "Bubbles" are connected by transition points, or so-
      called "transits". It should be noted that the association of these
      three spaces described by us does not create one common continuum.
      These "bubbles" can be located far away from each other
      in "dreamland". Transits accomplish an instantaneous transfer of our
      attention from one scene of sleep into another. Expert dreamers use
      them as transportation means. But it is far too early to talk about
      this.

      Here we examine the method of the "crack" in the dream programme:

      Transportation between the "bubbles" is possible only through
      these "transits", but this is not simply the way of smallest
      resistance for our dreaming attention. This is the result of tuning
      our emanations. For example, you see some object/subject (let us
      assume you perceived it as an enema!) and by association (i.e.,
      sorting out not only different concepts, but also the emanations of
      consciousness, connecting with the "data" of one's preconceptions)
      you come to the more extensive gloss of "hospital". Your intention is
      not clearly expressed, but it is still there. And you translate from
      the sphere "house" into the sphere "hospital". You consider the
      possibility that the "enema" is the transit. But in the following
      dream another object/subject serves as a transit. Thus, transit can
      be achieved during this associative "tuning" which usually occurs
      unconsciously. However, in many spheres of perception there are so-
      called "space transits". This type of transit connects a specific
      place on dream map with another concrete place. Such interconnections
      can be called stable. And there is a third type of "transit" which
      transfers you unpredictably into a new place. In this case the
      entrance point is compulsorily located in the zone of conversions and
      transmutations (archetypal zones on the dreaming map).

      The everyday waking reality is the gathering of similar "bubbles"
      (units of perception). Apartments, houses, natural obstacles, and so
      forth. Think about this. We are transferred into remote places with
      the aid of technical equipment (trains, cars, aircrafts, rockets),
      which personnify in themselves the idea of "stable" and "space"
      transits. But if in the everyday waking reality this form of transits
      was preserved, then, you can be confident that there are two
      remaining . [Huh?] Another matter is how to use them. This question
      is solved by concentration, tuning one's intention.Intent.

      The process of describing a terrain seen in dream-sleep is named
      the "mapping of dreams". I, as you, learnt about this method in a
      relatively finished form; therefore I can foresee almost all your
      questions. Nevertheless you had better ask them yourself."

      I'm going to pause a second as there is a lot more information than I remember and I'm worried this post will be too long to post...

    6. #6
      Member LightningMunk's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 2009
      Posts
      65
      Likes
      1
      yea theres this too:
      http://magic-su.net/eng/firstgate/
      "The mind is like a parachute. It only works when its open" ~Albert Einstein
      LDs: 1/2, lucid but blind, since starting train
      ( ) Turn Super Saiyan ( ) Kamehameha ( ) Fight Agent Smith fights in Matrix series ( ) Superman stuff

    7. #7
      Member
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      Posts
      25
      Likes
      1
      First of all I will describe the common methods of the dreamhacker
      experiments. A first act was the creation of a method which would
      satisfy all requirements and "rules", described by Castaneda. We
      seriously and diligently analysed different possibilities, and
      stopped at the "mapping of dreams". First, this is the "not-doing" of
      usual dreams (in the "doing" we retell the subject or we attempt to
      interpret some parts of dream-sleep in our dream diaries). In the
      second place, the "mapping of dreams" is the recapitulation of dream-
      sleep, the awakening of the dream memory, which means the same
      regulated shift of the assemblage point as with the recapitulation
      of "memorable events". Thirdly, this "polishing" of the Tonal, an
      amalgamation or the guidance of order in the chaotic mass of dream-
      sleep changes the certainly-dense sphere of the first attention into
      some type of "virtual" medium. With prolonged dream-mapping this
      sphere takes on mass and density and begins to snowball, to
      assimilate energies and information of the Nagual. Something like a
      type of artificial "black hole". Using a computer analogy, we called
      it a "worm" in the programme of dreaming.

      So perhaps we can think of dreams as being analogous to computer text
      files. Acting within periods of dream-sleep, man usually operates
      with words, text, concepts, but cannot control the dream programme.
      We created the "subprogramme" which acted autonomously from the
      general routine of dreams and, most importantly, also influenced it.
      Specifically because of this, my friends decided to call
      themselves "dreamhackers".

      Fourthly, mapping-an entertaining practice. We especially created
      for
      it a "play" context, and a "quest" context, wherein the dreamer
      searches for something specific, tries to solve problems encountered,
      passes through the established levels and, after all of this, begins
      to survive the dream scenarios he has realised.

      Specifically, the "quest" nature of dream-mapping brings an aura of
      elitism to a dreamer of long-standing practice. Otherwise only very
      relaxed people or "fans" would attempt it. But "fans" have their
      necessary leader-their Guru. We Dreamhackers despise all "Grand
      Masters", since, at present, they all, as one, contain the mercantile
      spirit of the swindler. A Guru-knowledge for money, for the
      servitude
      of mind, body, and spirit. We were searching for personal freedom,
      and we found this relation manifesting itself. And since not one of
      us wanted to be the pupil of a "great Teacher", we decided to
      stop "quest mapping".

      It is interesting to note that the first years of practice brought us
      several interesting discoveries. First, we understood that each
      person in dream-mapping constructed one and the same universal or
      archetypal matrix. There were some individual differences, but the
      basis for all dream maps was basically the same-some imprint of
      our
      everyday reality, an imprint described by this mapping. We isolated
      the basic archetypal elements of landscape-fringe areas, gigantic
      constructions, labyrinths, the "zone of transmutations" (conversions
      of landscape), transport lines, the "zone of cataclysms", the desert,
      etc.

      Secondly, we detected the places where, after visiting, a dreamer
      survived the enormous inflow of energy and the intensification of
      different abilities. One of the consequences of such "successful
      entries" is the explosion of the "dream memory". Man survives a
      unique and ecstatic state, when, in a moment both finite and
      infinite, he recalls hundreds and thousands of previous dream-sleeps;
      the moment when he instantly and accurately knows when and in which
      lifetime he experienced these dream-sleeps; and when it becomes
      knowledge that has a definite integrity. Words are not adequate to
      describe this properly, but if and when you test it on yourself, then
      you will be able to sit down, and draw an entire map of your dreams
      and it will be absorbed by you. It will remain and live inside you,
      in your consciousness. This is understandable. Over a long time we
      visited almost all the points of the "map". But at the moment of this
      explosion of the dream memory all these parts will be collected into
      a one-piece picture. Specifically, after this is when we found the
      onset of what we termed "controlled dreams".
      Thirdly, we found that the dream-programme is well-protected. By-and-
      large, people are disenfranchised users of dream-sleep. And we found
      our "system administrators". At first the dreamhackers classified
      these by their three already-existing categories, specifically
      the "flyers", "inorganic beings", and "guardians". But then our
      further studies led us to another conclusion: all these "spirits of
      sleep" appear as the personnifications of histones of DNA-Tonal. (I
      will describe this in more detail later). Moreover, now we know
      that "passageways into the other side" (i.e., natural outputs from
      the Tonal into the Nagual, in the verbally-descriptive and physically-
      mapping aspects), and places where we previously thought that man
      restores his luminosity, are in reality the histones of DNA-Tonal.

      Fourthly, we detected anomalies in the orientation of "dream spaces".
      The same anomalies were noted in ancient Chinese cartography. This
      pushed us (slightly) to new studies and searches of certain ancient
      books and manuscripts. The results were staggering. The same group
      research led to the fact that one of our dreamers discovered a method
      of reading "dream books". Reading texts in dreams is difficult.
      However, dreamhackers solved this problem. And again something
      phenomenal happened. We obtained access to that layer of information
      which is usually called The Chronicles of Akashi. Actually, this
      is access to any data, written down in the "information layers" of
      the planet.

      The first result of this breach became the almost "magic" model of
      stalking-a model based on the patience of Medici.[Don't get
      it-check
      it out]. This model worked with the chains of everyday events. It
      solved the problems we had at the time, and altered the flow of
      events in the necessary direction, and helped us to carry out
      the "revision of life" [recapitulation?] (recapitulation as explained in Castaneda books - Aelfrede) in a much more captivating
      and altogether happier manner, rather than making us sit on a box,
      rocking backwards and forwards holding our heads in our hands.

      The study of passageways from one dream-sleep to another was the
      following stage of our studies. We discovered the 'texture' of
      transits-the elements that correspond to similar passageways. And
      it
      turned out that "transits" exist both there and in the daily world.
      But what is interesting is that this similarity of daily and dream
      worlds led to one more discovery-to the discovery of the basic
      reality that includes these two worlds. And thus was born the model
      of DNA-Tonal (Tonal as described in Castaneda books - Aelfrede). At a given moment we not only developed it, but we also
      began to test it in different areas of our activity. The prospects
      were staggering.

      Let us have a talk about the the archetypal elements which appear
      during "dream mapping". First of all, some of these form the
      boundaries of the map. In dreams, we see them as mountains, rivers,
      seas or as expansive deserts. Dreamhackers do not know what is
      located beyond these limits. Even in lucid dreams, after asking
      yourself this question, you do not obtain an answer. In the so-called "controlled dream" it is
      possible to move apart [?? Stretch? Push apart?] these unknown
      northern and eastern boundaries, but the west and the south are
      fixed..
      If, in the single bubble of a dream, the familiar orientation of the
      cardinal points remains , then, during the composition of the dream
      map we note another orientation-all is just as in the "real"
      world,
      but the south switches places with the north. This fact astonished
      the dreamhackers. They conducted a search for this phenomenon in
      literature and found that in certain ancient Chinese geographical
      texts [Which ones?] the same phenomenon can be found. Ancient Chinese
      maps had a mirror-image orientation along the Y-axis.[Ancient
      polarity reversal?]

      In the same ancient books we found the description of territories
      beyond the northern boundary. This territory was considered the realm
      of giants-the realm through which it was necessary to pass in
      order
      to reach the "source of immortality". Reading these texts we
      understood that the ancient Chinese dealt with the mapping of dreams
      in a serious fashion. It is probable to say that dreamhackers are
      only repeating the steps of these ancient chinese pioneers.
      Unfortunately, information about these ancient dreamers is very
      scarce and vague.

      The following archetypal elements are gigantic constructions. One of
      them is "the Tower", which reaches to the sky (Tower of Babel?) It is
      frequently associated in dreams with sport, or with the military, or
      with some sort of transport terminal. Another gigantic construction
      is "the Temple", built in the form of a horseshoe. Its wings splay
      out from a central construction, and they descend in five steps,
      forming the horseshoe. This is a dangerous place for dreamers.

      I have already mentioned "the City". In its eastern part is located a
      very interesting "industrial area". Next time I will describe other
      zones of the map, including "labyrinths".

      Another archetypal element on the dream map is the labyrinth. Here is
      an extract of a letter from "Doc":

      "I don't remember whether I told you about a method of healing which
      can be realised through "controllable" dreams. It is such a
      fascinating and frightening area, that some might compare to the
      delirium of a lunatic! But the essence is this: the self is an energy
      unit that can be split into parts. One or more of these "parts"
      wanders into a so-called "labyrinth". Labyrinths can be above ground
      (i.e. in buildings or consisting of walled surroundings) or
      underground. Those above ground are somehow connected to our everyday
      problems, and those underground with health, energy levels, and so
      forth.
      Whilst investigating the underground labyrinths, I carried out
      complete cures on two people, who were deemed "incurable" by
      medicine. In a controlled dream I helped them to get out of a
      labyrinth, and it resulted in instant healing! One woman was
      rejuvenated. She was 28 years old, but she felt like a 15 year old
      again. The second person was a seven-year girl suffering from
      congenital blindness. And if I pulled out the first woman without
      much effort, with the second it was necessary to go much deeper.
      Inorganic life lives in such places. Actually, "labyrinths" are a way
      of dialogue with us, and in my opinion, the inorganic forces do not
      realise that such traps and energy loops deprive us of our life
      forces and our health.

      With labyrinths be very cautious. For this type of research you will
      need some experience in "dream control". Losing dreaming attention,
      becoming disoriented in a labyrinth, you will become just a
      titbit-a
      possible victim for some ruthless beings, and in "everyday reality"
      you may contract an incurable disease. Nevertheless, if you can't
      stand the heat, don't go into the kitchen.. Estimate the risk on your
      abilities. My curiosity has cost me a very heavy o
      bligation-constant
      contact with certain beings, which, together with a heap of problems
      in my life, brought a lot of inexplicable semi-miraculous moments.
      And even better, I started to avoid "it."..."

      An extract from a Sergei Izrigi letter:

      "By and large, there are two types of labyrinth: an archetypal one
      (common to all mankind) and a personal one (pertaining to the
      individual). In the first category are: a labyrinth of life (LL); a
      labyrinth of events (LE) and a labyrinth of obsessions (LO). These
      three formations penetrate the tonal. We meet them in dreams just as
      we do in real life. Being our individual labyrinths, an archetypal
      labyrinth has specific qualities in the material world. For example,
      they cannot be represented on a dream map as a concrete place (though
      layers of a map are connected to them by a complex interconnection).
      In reality, we can only speak about them from a position of
      philosophy, of psychology, or from a position of mysticism. But
      certainly, each of you has had experience of the rotation of the
      Wheel of Destiny, or travel in the "labyrinth of accidents". To
      understand the idea of the LL, re-read "Witch's Dream" by F.Donner."

      So, the LL. This construct denotes a sphere penetrated with radial
      tunnels which are crossed with each other by millions of passageways.
      So, how do sorcerers, shamans and witches work with the LL? There are
      various ways. Some move "themselves" (their energy, consciousness and
      whatever else) around "dark" passageways to somewhere "light". Or, to
      the opposite-a circle of blackness. Movement in the LL tunnels is
      very interesting, and directly depends on "will" coupled with
      experience. Walls of tunnels are perceived in a complexity of
      living "sight-touch-taste feeling". There are colours and sounds, and
      tactile sensations of juiciness, softness, humidity . and of life
      independent of us. Moving in the LL tunnels, the individual
      experiences various transformations of his personal force (it can be
      a feeling of flight, of soaring, of having flown, all certain altered
      conditions of consciousness). But, above all, any movement in an LL
      tunnel results in a change in one's "everyday" living situation. (An
      alternative to movement can be a rotation of the definite huge
      wheel "itself".)

      Many people frequently get stuck in an impasse. An element of
      stagnation enters their lives. Each day is the same, the same "gloomy
      everyday life", little "new" happens, everything is grey and pale.
      Our inability to move in an LL tunnel (and so it is 99.999% of the
      time) is defined by the complex programme which dreamhackers have not
      yet cracked. There are different factors to be taken into account:
      a "modality of time", the influence which is rendered on your life by
      your peers, by events, your loss of "power" etc. Why, for example,
      are old men so inactive, and why are their lives so "grey"? Because
      of illness? No. There are many people, whose illnesses appear
      abruptly, and whose lives previously could be described as "wow!", as
      interesting. Put simply, their "fuel supply" ran out. There are no
      forces to activate the Wheel of Destiny, or for itself to slip into
      another branch. The LL tunnel deceives with a promise: [maybe the
      dreamer deceives himself?] it offers you an opportunity to "improve
      your life". It's a sort of roulette: we twist a wheel, we throw
      themselves like a ball, and we skip around on black and red strips of
      life. It seems, one more turn, one more attempt, and we shall
      achieve "the good life". But don't let yourself be tricked. A great
      waste of personal energy! In one month of such practice the person
      begins to lose interest, and his life becomes even more "grey".
      Although there is sometimes a successful movement, this is followed
      by the "lucky beggar" starting to "twitch", beginning to lose his own
      energy.

      Yes, my friends, you won't get out of an LL tunnel.. If you compare
      the person to a ballbearing, he carries on in this "bearing" until he
      is not quite "erased" (his personal force is not spent yet). However,
      this "deterioration" can be reduced to a minimum. And if you consider
      the basic concepts of the "Warriors' way" as described by CC(Carlos Castaneda), the
      absolute necessity of deletion of personal history, by so-
      called "recapitulation", becomes clear to you.

      But it's not for me to say what is important and what is unimportant.
      An LL tunnel includes sectors of people, of flora and fauna, and also
      of inorganic beings. The sector of inorganic beings is joined to
      ours. Any part of it is accessible to us, and our sector is
      accessible to them. The inorganic beings have found a way to prolong
      their lives. They became part of the LL construct, and gradually took
      it over, expanding the expansion.

      Now I shall proceed to the description of the LE-the labyrinth of
      events. You will all be familiar with a pinball machine. Your father
      has lowered "the starting mechanism". You, the "ball", are carried by
      the "directing tube " of your mother, and have escaped into the
      world, and have travelled through sectors of events: day nursery,
      kindergarten, school, army / high school, marriage, work, pension.
      Sometimes you collided with obstacles, you went sideways, crossed
      sectors of luck and bad luck, but still rushed on in the unknown ways
      of destiny. And all this occured in a pinball machine called "LE".
      It's common to all people. That is, you collide with a heap of
      other "balls". And the most terrible place in the game is a hole in
      the ground, a meter or so wide, which we can quantify as "death". We
      can see an LE as a certain cause-effect matrix, with complex rules
      and interrelations of events. You know that some combinations of
      events fulfil our desires-others can turn life into an infernal
      torment. And, certainly, someone would like to be able to control
      this "movement by itself". The power of causality-a precious
      thing,
      but none too pleasant. And some people like CC tried to change it by
      their own volition. Dreamhackers have developed a technique for the
      conscious substitutions of events which, being included in chains of
      events, yield us the results necessary to our aims."

      Here it is necessary to note that the LE in dreams is considerably
      simplified. It too has the unopened riddle of life, above which it
      would be advisable to break a head.[?] For example, transits in
      dreams are more precise, much more so than in reality. Movements in
      space are sharper yet more unpredictable. On the other hand, the
      study of transits in "reality" can bring fabulous pleasure because
      sometimes you start to feel like a wizard. Working with LEs (in many
      respects) is determined by success in such practices as stalking and
      the study of Intent. We Dreamhackers
      have spoken about it a lot. Anyone who wants to go down this pathway
      will find good reference points.

      The most disgusting of the three archetypal labyrinths is the
      LO-the
      labyrinth of obsessions. "Obsessions" does not only mean feelings of
      tenderness towards something or someone. It, by and large, a trap for
      our attention. Our "small weaknesses" steal our personal force. All
      these "hobbies" weave an impenetrable cocoon of emotional dependences
      around us. Add here an attachment to tobacco, to alcohol, drugs,
      television, books, computers, internet forums and a heap of
      similar "boa constrictors" which entangle our consciousness and steal
      our time, our force, and our opportunities. The LO has similarities
      to the construction of a harmonic: a mass of holes (small personal
      chasms). Air travels through these holes. When you, the "clarinet
      pressure pad", falls on one of them, you start to taste a definite
      complexity of sensation, as if you were sounding a note). But instead
      of a harmonic, you get obsessed and fall into a hole, and you will
      sound the same note all of your life, becoming A-lcoholic, D-rug addict, [E-xcrement?] F-irm man or C-alm
      gawk. [G-ross!] SI (B)? No comment.

      Shamans and witches have learned to use elements of the LO for their
      needs, such as power-plants, rituals, and NLP,
      zombing, [and what is that?] "the truth I shall tell, at first only
      gilded my hand" etc. [??] The LO gives powerful means for various
      manipulations of human consciousness. But, as we know, the way of
      magicians differs from the way of a man of knowledge. Also it is
      necessary to say that dreamhackers are searching for knowledge, not
      power over others.

      To be continued..[?]

      ..and that's when they went quiet.."

      However, I have some more info from somewhere else. More later.'

    8. #8
      Member
      Join Date
      Sep 2009
      Posts
      25
      Likes
      1
      Hi again,

      the following is a post on a forum from someone asking the Dreamhackers an extensive list of questions. One of Dreamhackers ends up responding. First is the post with the questions, followed by Iveta's answers:

      '"ldstalker
      Esteemed Regular
      Posts: 132
      (2/28/03 3:41:24 am)
      Reply Re: Krasnij okjabre

      nice, finally a crack for the first gate. There is just one minor
      problem:
      it might tell us about the problem, but not about the solution. as it
      seems, this whole Dreaming is only for this elitary group of
      people with Awareness high enough to see the solution. However, from
      my
      childhood (where I had a little more Awareness than now) I remember
      that:

      1) the transport-system of "gazing" at dream-objects can get mapped
      too
      2) apart from the visible objects there are also thought-objects (no
      diff)
      3) actually there are no thoughts only "solid" thought-objects
      4) the upper boundary of dream-bubble leads to reality
      5) which reality depends on the angle at which you cross it
      6) 90 leads to sleeping-body, sinking into ground does too
      7) touching something in mid-flight is a transport too
      most of the time transporting to the same (slightly altered)
      bubble
      9) there is a difference between walking and flying because of this
      10)each bubble consists of 3 layers, the middle-layer is for joint
      dreams
      11)swimming can not get beyond layer 1
      12)neither are there any objects from layer 1 continued in layer 2
      13)each layer does have its own ground where landing is possible
      14)by landing however the layer is left and dream-energy is increased
      15)from layer3 mapping of bubble-pos is much more easy (cut-off
      pyramid!)
      16)layer2 can only be reached in outdoor-environment
      17)when leaving a building to get to the outside doesn't mean you
      get outdoor
      18)one can clearly feel if a dream is outdoor or not
      19)again, changing dream-bubble in mid-flight will get you to layer1
      20)layer2 will become indoor-bubble most probably
      21)one can't see anything in layer2 until landing
      22)leaving the bubble in layer3 is possible to the east
      23)there's an exit to the west, but it's well-guarded
      24)north is decided while entering layer 3
      25)there is a preview of the bubble you'd get into by landing there
      26)turning west in layer3 most certainly changes the bubble
      27)there exists an exit (small) to the south (unexplored)
      28)in every outdoor-bubble there's an entrance to indoor-bubble
      29)indoor-bubbles are dull and black'n'white and similar things
      30)just like the entrance to them
      31)sometimes there's a guardian to layer2, fight him
      32)and you will be freed of his presence for a long time
      33)there's a luring-force *towards* indoor-bubbles
      34)which can also be used to find the exit once you're in one
      35)all dream-characters tend to lead you into indoor-bubbles
      36)you need to ask for it if you wish one of them to lead you out
      37)outdoor-bubbles are always full of arriving people
      38)there are 2 kinds of dream-characters:bots and players
      39)you can steer bots with your will to some degree
      40)bots have an own will, but it's small
      41)and they can even get squished to the size of their will
      42)players are solid and can not get reduced in size
      43)there are no crowded places, only few players per bubble
      44)the more players the more bots, at least 1 bot per player
      45)players leaving the bubble leave a bot behind
      46)players leaving are consciously replaced by other players
      47)which are located at a slightly different pos (same shape!)
      48)once identified as such bots will leave the bubble soon
      49)communication is only possible with players
      50)bots only perceive your perception/emotions
      51)players can allow you to follow them when changing bubbles
      52)players' energy prolongs dreams within the same bubble
      53)the palm and forearm are best interface for energy-exchange
      54)touching player does offer additional communication-level
      55)additionally there exists emotional communication between players
      56)leaving layer1 towards layer2 is impossible when it is established
      57)in the same way as objects are transports, players are tied
      together
      58)since emotion-communication is perception too
      59)guardians are communicating through emotions intensively
      60)and have the strongest/loudest voice in that aspect
      61)while other players or bots often can get scared away by strong
      emotions
      62)guardians can't and are even attracted by them, feeding on them
      63)guardians are quite immobile and only react to emotions with
      movement
      64)players can lead you past a guardian if you ask
      65)not necessarily to the place the guardian is guarding
      66)for players you are doing them a favour by following them
      67)spending too much time near the same player makes you his property
      68)sexual energy decides which player controls dream-flow
      69)most players do have a lot of sexual energy
      70)or are controlled by other players which will attempt to control
      you
      71)while giving you enough sexual energy for being entertaining to
      them
      72)moreso for the guardians who actually enjoy a fight
      73)thereby sexual energy helps overcoming guardians
      74)guardians will attempt to brand-mark you before you get past
      75)which apart from hurting (only once) will help you recognizing
      them
      78)in the future throughout all subsequent dreams (through itching)
      79)and will form an additional interface for energy
      (dream-prolonging)
      80)and will attract certain players for you to become their property
      81)who's relationship will also affect presence of guardian
      82)all these players and guardians are shape-shifters
      83)who's actual shape reflects the emotions you get from them
      84)the mentioned sexual energy *is* the one you can use for sex
      85)and only affects the player's dominance-level, nothing else,
      86)while dream-energy is only the total duration of the dream
      87)which can also be used for moving, body-stability dream-clarity
      89)but which is not necessarily used for those by default
      90)and can originate from other sources than sexual energy (unknown)
      91)partly also influenced by the very bubble you're in currently
      92)another influence of dreams comes from the "reality" beyond layer3
      93)which can be used to get there into a
      94)paralyzed state where only the usual mechanisms can get you into a
      95)dream-bubble but nowhere else since all movement is blocked
      96)this paralyzed state (SP) is not inside of the physical body
      97)movement is possible if trained, but all training
      98)is void one week later
      99)and finally: SP feels very similar to layer2

      please confirm these or report where they don't match!
      especially interesting is the relation between layer2 and
      group-dreaming, I even suspect that from layer2 you can
      drag people from SP into a dream. also 9siiw seems to confirm
      the existence of Castaneda's Flyers, so some might be interested
      in disproving it (thereby proving that they aren't affected
      by any Flyers). the only difficulty (especially in those 2
      points) is to avoid switching into a regular dream-bubble,
      so you'd better double-check if anything changed. especially
      the attempting to move in SP will most certainly lead into a
      dream-bubble representation of "reality" because of the very
      fixation on the thought-object of "moving", then you'd need to
      get back into SP and check if you actually moved. but also
      layer2 can be quite tricky, as even though no objects are
      visible it will probably be more likely to get into a
      dream-bubble representing the other dreamer, than actually
      sharing a dream. if you have any questions just ask!
      if you know any english-speaking group of dream-hackers,
      please tell me. also an english website with above articles
      would be interesting, if someone has a link or webspace...

      krasnij okjabre
      Unregistered User"

      "Abramelin
      Warrior

      < BURP ! >

      Reg: 11/23/02
      Posts: 1002

      Re: A PRESENT FOR THE "DREAMERS' [re: Abramelin]
      05/30/03 06:48 PM Edit Reply Quote

      Idstalker-I understand your impatience, but this is a massive
      amount of questions/information for Sergei/Iveta to translate.
      Please could you wait until they have finished their story? I think
      it is important that their flow is not interrupted.


      iveta
      Esteemed Regular
      Posts: 22
      (2/28/03 11:50:14 pm)
      Reply Re: Idstalker

      First of all, I must say that dreamhackers are not a elitary of
      group of people with high awareness. Most likely they are located in
      the position of reason (about it spoke by don Juan) - from this
      position was visible the position of silent knowledge. Let me to
      answer some questions, although the style of their setting is
      sufficiently difficult for me.

      1) the transport-system of "gazing" at dream-objects can get mapped
      too
      2) apart from the visible objects there are also thought-objects (no
      diff)
      3) actually there are no thoughts only "solid" thought-objects

      I cannot comment this block of assertions. Dreamhackers did not
      investigate the thought-objects. We have several technician of
      contemplation, but they are not connected with "gazing" at
      dream-objects.

      4) the upper boundary of dream-bubble leads to reality

      Most likely collision with upper boundary of dream-bubble leads to a
      shock of consternation and to the subsequent output into the
      reality. But this occurs only in the usual sleeps. In the controlled
      dreams is observed the phenomenon spoked by Henaro: "I do penetrate
      the first sky… BOOM!.. I do penetrate the second sky…
      boom…" and so
      forth.

      5) which reality depends on the angle at which you cross it
      6)90 leads to sleeping-body, sinking into ground does too

      For this block there are no commentaries.

      7) touching something in mid-flight is a transport too

      In the usual dreams it is possible to walk, to fly and to float, to
      be moved through the transits. In the lucid dreams it is possible to
      be moved along the threads of world (for example, you indicate by
      finger on the mount, to let the thread of light out from the finger
      and "to be attracted" to other its end. These two forms of movements
      in general occur in one and the same bubble.

      most of the time transporting to the same (slightly altered) bubble

      In the controlled dreams you moved up to the large distances and
      into different regions of the dreamland through the space transits
      founded by you. For example, in your house you arrive through the
      cornice of the window in airport; through the door of the kitchen -
      into your working office; through the mirror in the bath-room - into
      the urban library, etc.

      9-22)
      Here we have differences in description two our systems.
      Dreamhackers do not use the concept of layers, although I understand
      that you means in it. The method of mapping intentionally was
      simplified to the betta-version. We never considered mapping of
      dreams as purpose, and therefore we related to it disdainfully - as
      just to the convenient means. Therefore do not await from me
      detailed descriptions. Our purposes were more abstract.

      23-27)
      Tonal actually proved to be island - the relatively small space
      icluding all glosses for describing the world. Wherever lived man -
      in Africa, Antarctica, Germany or Sonora - the map of his dreams
      have the same basic archetipical features. Here is two gloss of the
      contemporary person:
      The house, where you conducted childhood, will be the center of map.
      Sometimes this house will include the elements of other houses, in
      which you sometimes lived. This house will be it is located in the
      city, which will include the elements of all cities, in which you
      sometimes were. City on the map of dreams one. When in the sleep
      you, for example, go in the machine from New York to Trenton, you
      simply will leave a one part of the city and arrive into its another
      part. Thus, when you fly from Paris to Quebec, you do not exceed the
      limits of City. This powerful gloss including all cities known to
      you.

      But let us return to your questions. Dreamhackers found two passages
      "to other side". First, this is bridge in the southeastern part of
      the map. After it does begin narrow passage in the mountain bank
      and… the membrane swunging and flapsing by wind. Everything
      precisely in don Juan's manner. In this place always blows the "wind
      of force". The second passage is located on the north of map. Way to
      it lies through the terrain, populated by giants. It is amazing, but
      this locality is very well described in the ancient Chinese books." '

      Continued...

    9. #9
      Intergalactic Psychonaut Achievements:
      1 year registered 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class Referrer Bronze
      spaceexplorer's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2008
      Gender
      Posts
      857
      Likes
      81
      Please Take This Nonsense To Beyond Dreaming Please
      Last edited by no-Name; 09-08-2009 at 06:11 PM.

    10. #10
      Banned
      Join Date
      Nov 2007
      LD Count
      im here for you
      Location
      australia
      Posts
      3,677
      Likes
      415
      That is one hell of a wall of text, Dreamingstar, I'm sure you can see why it might be offputting to read :\

      From what I have seen in this thread, you aren't telling me much at all. I couldn't understand anything from your huge wall of text.

      Space, use your inside voice

    11. #11
      Member Achievements:
      1 year registered 1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class

      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Gender
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,174
      Likes
      65
      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      Please Take This Nonsense To Beyond Dreaming Please
      I couldn't disagree more. The Dreamhackers group members have done much, much more research into LDing than any published westerner [fill in appropriate name(s)], and for a time, they were government backed, with funding from their own Russians.. until it all went pear-shaped, that is, and there were some fatalities, as I seem to remember. I personally find it very interesting, and extremely sobering to boot.

      The fact that you think that it's nonsense is not a reason to "demote" their findings. Would that you could do half of what they've achieved.

    12. #12
      Intergalactic Psychonaut Achievements:
      1 year registered 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class Referrer Bronze
      spaceexplorer's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2008
      Gender
      Posts
      857
      Likes
      81
      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      I couldn't disagree more. The Dreamhackers group members have done much, much more research into LDing than any published westerner [fill in appropriate name(s)], and for a time, they were government backed, with funding from their own Russians.. until it all went pear-shaped, that is, and there were some fatalities, as I seem to remember. I personally find it very interesting, and extremely sobering to boot.

      The fact that you think that it's nonsense is not a reason to "demote" their findings. Would that you could do half of what they've achieved.
      All very well and good to say such things, but would you be kind enough to share your sources for this information?
      Because from these posts alone, the dreamhacker concept seems little more than a mishmash of new age concepts.

      And what exactly HAVE they achieved?
      (Other than creating their own little cult of terminology and beliefs of course)
      Last edited by spaceexplorer; 09-08-2009 at 07:35 PM.

    13. #13
      Member Achievements:
      1 year registered 1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class

      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Gender
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,174
      Likes
      65
      Typical noob western teenager response. YOU go off, spacecadet, and do the work yourself. Trawl the internet and find their stuff. Don't expect me to mollycoddle you and do the work for you.. jesus. This site really gets on my tits sometimes.

      Aaaaaaaah.. that feels better.

    14. #14
      Night Stalker <span class='glow_000000'>Baron Samedi</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2009
      LD Count
      999
      Gender
      Location
      honolulu, Hawaii
      Posts
      5,849
      Likes
      2238
      DJ Entries
      476
      I read the whole thing. I thought it was very interesting. So, was the author screwing the big guy's wife in the dream world? haha

      I have experienced something like a dream bubble. It was actually a cube. One dream when I became super-lucid, I decided to change the setting, but the setting was like 3D images projected on to 6 flat surfaces which I was inside of, and the projections were coming out of me. Imagine watching a movie like that. hmm...
      ya gwan fok wid de Baron? ye gotta nodda ting comin. (Formerly known as Baking Nomad.)

    15. #15
      Intergalactic Psychonaut Achievements:
      1 year registered 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class Referrer Bronze
      spaceexplorer's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2008
      Gender
      Posts
      857
      Likes
      81
      Whatever
      Last edited by spaceexplorer; 09-08-2009 at 09:30 PM.

    16. #16
      Member Achievements:
      1 year registered 1000 Hall Points Referrer Bronze Veteran First Class

      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Gender
      Location
      UK
      Posts
      1,174
      Likes
      65
      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      You pathetic, childish little boy.
      Touch a nerve, did I, sonny?

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      I'll have you know I'm 33 years old..
      You coulda fucking fooled me boy.. you sure don't act like a non-noob western teenager.. heh..

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      and have been lucid dreaming since the age of about 5..
      Yadda yadda..

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      I discovered the term lucid dreaming at 13 (at which point I bought a Nova Dreamer, and both of Laberge Books Lucid Dreaming and EWOLD). And have been studying and collecting works on the subject since then.
      WOW!!! Such gravitas! Such experience! Such arrogance! Heh.. I'm lovin' this..

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      I have kept a dream diary probably longer than you have been alive.
      And STILL talking out your arse! I was already out of my teens when you were born, lickspit.. what a fucking arsehole you really are. Heh..

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      And had thousands of lucid dreams.
      Yeah yeah yeah yeah..

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      I have the most extensive lucid dreaming library of anyone I know, including some very rare books worth hundreds (such as "Dreams and how to guide them" by Hervey de Saint-Denys).
      Oh fuck me.. I genuflect before your munificence, o stunted one..

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      Lucid Dreaming has been my number one interest for my entire life.
      Really? So how come you exhibit such a lack of knowledge of the subject? Never heard of the Dreamhackers, for a start, had you? And they're old news. Been around in the West for around 8-9 years. Your little LD ivory tower ain't helping you much is it?

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      So excuse me if I say "go fuck yourself" for calling me a "Typical noob western teenager ".
      I got you there, didn't I? Heh.. what a fucking stuck-up c**t you are, to be sure.

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      How old are you yourself exactly?
      Not that it's any fucking business of yours, noob, but I'm over 20 years older than you, boy, and have been PROPER LDing since well before you were a twinkle in the Milkman's eye! Heh..

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      Sorry if I ask you to back up your statements.
      Listen, you lazy fucking bullshitter.. YOU go and do the work.YOU go and trawl the internet to further your (perceived) knowledge. Don't expect me to mollycoddle the lazy likes of you..

      ..and get your big head out of your arse, while you're at it.

      Sweet dreams.

    17. #17
      Intergalactic Psychonaut Achievements:
      1 year registered 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class Referrer Bronze
      spaceexplorer's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2008
      Gender
      Posts
      857
      Likes
      81
      You're in your 50s and you use the word Noob?

      Wow, that's really sad.


      I'd spend time arguing with you, but you do a good enough job of making yourself look like a moron.
      See ya.
      Last edited by spaceexplorer; 09-08-2009 at 09:21 PM.

    18. #18
      Peaceful Warrior shinta66's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2008
      Location
      in a alleyway
      Posts
      155
      Likes
      9
      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      You pathetic, childish little boy.

      I'll have you know I'm 33 years old, and have been lucid dreaming since the age of about 5. I discovered the term lucid dreaming at 13 (at which point I bought a Nova Dreamer, and both of Laberge Books Lucid Dreaming and EWOLD). And have been studying and collecting works on the subject since then.

      I have kept a dream diary probably longer than you have been alive.
      And had thousands of lucid dreams.

      I have the most extensive lucid dreaming library of anyone I know, including some very rare books worth hundreds (such as "Dreams and how to guide them" by Hervey de Saint-Denys).

      Lucid Dreaming has been my number one interest for my entire life.
      So excuse me if I say screw you for calling me a "Typical noob western teenager ".
      How old are you yourself exactly?


      Sorry if I ask you to back up your statements.
      It's kind of how it works you know, you make a statement, you back it up.
      Unless of course, you're full of BS, then you weasel out of it with some childish attack... oh, look, that's exactly what you did.
      No one gives a damn space. This is why you piss people off. Oh plus do you have any scientific proof about what you just said?
      [Cyclic13] 12:18 pm: to live your life in a breath
      [Cyclic13] 12:19 pm: breathing in is birth
      [Cyclic13] 12:19 pm: holding is growth
      [Cyclic13] 12:19 pm: and release death

    19. #19
      Banned
      Join Date
      Nov 2007
      LD Count
      im here for you
      Location
      australia
      Posts
      3,677
      Likes
      415
      This close to locking this thread.

      No more off-topic or insulting posts.

    20. #20
      Intergalactic Psychonaut Achievements:
      1 year registered 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class Referrer Bronze
      spaceexplorer's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2008
      Gender
      Posts
      857
      Likes
      81
      Quote Originally Posted by shinta66 View Post
      No one gives a damn space. This is why you piss people off.
      And who asked you?
      And you are?
      Oh, right, the self appointed spokesperson of the world.

      Sorry, but If he will come into a thread looking to start an argument then it is absolutely my right to defend myself.

      Quote Originally Posted by shinta66 View Post
      Oh plus do you have any scientific proof about what you just said?
      No but god told me you are a twat, and i have "faith" that its true.
      Last edited by spaceexplorer; 09-08-2009 at 09:46 PM.

    21. #21
      Night Stalker <span class='glow_000000'>Baron Samedi</span>'s Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2009
      LD Count
      999
      Gender
      Location
      honolulu, Hawaii
      Posts
      5,849
      Likes
      2238
      DJ Entries
      476
      Too bad it's so hard for people to disagree without resorting to ad hominem attacks. I'd actually like to discuss the topic.
      ya gwan fok wid de Baron? ye gotta nodda ting comin. (Formerly known as Baking Nomad.)

    22. #22
      Member edge0125's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
      Gender
      Location
      Texas
      Posts
      135
      Likes
      14
      ok when i saw castanadas name on the article, then i knew this was bs. that guy has been proven to be a phoney and a liar.



      anyways whats soo great about these "dreamhacker"; whats their method?, and what have they accomplished?

    23. #23
      Member
      Join Date
      Jan 2007
      Posts
      139
      Likes
      0
      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Touch a nerve, did I, sonny?



      You coulda fucking fooled me boy.. you sure don't act like a non-noob western teenager.. heh..
      ............
      I loled hard.

    24. #24
      Intergalactic Psychonaut Achievements:
      1 year registered 5000 Hall Points Veteran First Class Referrer Bronze
      spaceexplorer's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 2008
      Gender
      Posts
      857
      Likes
      81
      Quote Originally Posted by Fergie1 View Post
      I loled hard.
      You're easily pleased.

      Quote Originally Posted by edge0125 View Post
      ok when i saw castanadas name on the article, then i knew this was bs. that guy has been proven to be a phoney and a liar.



      anyways whats soo great about these "dreamhacker"; whats their method?, and what have they accomplished?
      Pretty much my thoughts man.

      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Touch a nerve, did I, sonny?
      No, you're just being fucking rude.


      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      You coulda fucking fooled me boy.. you sure don't act like a non-noob western teenager.. heh..
      I could say the same about yourself.



      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Yadda yadda..
      Like this for example


      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      WOW!!! Such gravitas! Such experience! Such arrogance! Heh.. I'm lovin' this..
      Because you're a cock much?
      No arrogance at all, you called me an unexperienced teenager, I point out that you're actually wrong... and you're loving being wrong.



      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      And STILL talking out your arse! I was already out of my teens when you were born, lickspit.. what a fucking arsehole you really are. Heh..
      Odd that you choose to use words like Noob if you are in your 50s.
      Rather sad really.


      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Yeah yeah yeah yeah..
      Oh fuck me.. I genuflect before your munificence, o stunted one..
      Grow up maybe?
      Shouldn't an old man like yourself know better?

      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      I got you there, didn't I? Heh.. what a fucking stuck-up c**t you are, to be sure.
      No you're just being a rude git.
      And I find your ability to fly off the handle at a stranger who dosn't agree with you, to be quite sad.


      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Not that it's any fucking business of yours, noob, but I'm over 20 years older than you, boy, and have been PROPER LDing since well before you were a twinkle in the Milkman's eye! Heh..
      Wow, bow down to the master, all hail the king of lucid dreaming.
      What an arrogant fucktard noob.
      (see how pathetic that kind of response is when it's directed at you? That's basically how you respond to things, sad isn't it.)




      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Listen, you lazy fucking bullshitter.. YOU go and do the work.YOU go and trawl the internet to further your (perceived) knowledge. Don't expect me to mollycoddle the lazy likes of you..

      ..and get your big head out of your arse, while you're at it.

      Sweet dreams.
      No thanks. I'll leave the new age cult nonsense to people like yourself.

      Quote Originally Posted by Oneiro View Post
      Really? So how come you exhibit such a lack of knowledge of the subject? Never heard of the Dreamhackers, for a start, had you? And they're old news. Been around in the West for around 8-9 years. Your little LD ivory tower ain't helping you much is it?
      No I hadn't heard of the dreamhackers. Big Deal.
      And from what i've read so far in this thread, I'm glad i hadn't up until now.
      The name itself is like something out of a bad 80s movie, the principles are a standard mix of newage hockum latched onto some kind of pseudo science to try and lend it credibility.

      So no, I'm not going to "research them further".
      If the original posters information is anything to go on, I'd rather avoid these guys like the plague. There is enough BS surrounding lucid dreaming, without yet more new age cultish nonsense to deal with.

      If this is the kind of thing that floats your boat, then enjoy it, but don't go getting all offensive and childish when someone dosn't agree with your opinion.

      But the point stands, that this thread DOES belong in beyond dreaming.
      And that was the only reason I posted in it in the first place.

      You can continue to spew out your offensive nonsense if you want, but personally I don't care about what some random 50 year old guy, with a taste for the new age thinks about me.
      Last edited by Jeff777; 09-09-2009 at 12:01 AM. Reason: Merging posts

    25. #25
      DreamSlinger The Cusp's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2006
      Location
      Ottawa, Ontario
      Posts
      4,877
      Likes
      646
      DJ Entries
      192
      From what I can tell, these dream hackers are just a group of people who study dreaming, no different than "DVers" as a whole. They don't all agree on the same thing and are split on different issues.

      Anyone who wants to dismiss them as a whole must be big on racial stereotypes as well.

      Quote Originally Posted by spaceexplorer View Post
      The name itself is like something out of a bad 80s movie
      Actually it was a 2002 tv series about a group of medical students who invent a device that lets them enter people's dreams. Never seen it, but it sounds like it's worth checking out. You might have known that if you had taken to time to do even a simple web search. Like Oneiro said, you're too fucking lazy. How can you discuss something you know nothing about and can't be bothered to research?

      Quote Originally Posted by edge0125 View Post
      ok when i saw castanadas name on the article, then i knew this was BS. that guy has been proven to be a phoney and a liar.
      Lol, you make it sound like one of those early high school math problems where they throw in an extra variable or two that isn't relevant to try to throw you off.

      It's funny how if you throw in the name Castaneda, so many people miss the point, distracted by irrelevant bullshit. Which in a way, was what Castaneda's (or rather Don Juan's) teachings were about.

      And proven to be a phony and a liar? By other people. Must be nice to let other people do your thinking for you.

      Dream Mapping

      I've tried to make maps of my dreams before, and failed in an epic manner. In fact I seen many people try this over the years, but have never seen a finished map. The geographical locations just aren't stable enough to map out.

      I'm impressed that these "Dream Hackers" have actually managed to solved that dilema. And it's fucking brilliant! They solved all the problems of making dream maps.

      -The center of the map is your house you grew up in, or an amalgam of all the houses you've ever lived it.

      -There aren't multiple cities in dreams, only one city, again an amalgam of of all cities you are familiar with.

      -There are Northern, Southern, Eastern and Western borders to the dream map, and the actual dream map isn't that big, with nothing beyond these borders or edges. The northern and southern ones are immutable (but you can push the northern on further back), and there are blind spots in the eastern border. (Every time I've encountered the "edge of the world" void it was in the east)

      I don't want to get into this too deeply yet, since it's all brand spanking new to me, but it all holds true for my dreams. And I've put a lot of effort and thought into mapping my dreams in the past.



      There is a lot of information in there, haven't read it all yet, and there seems to be something lost in the translation that makes understanding difficult, but to dismiss their efforts as a load of crap is just ignorant.

      Someone asked my awhile back if they could translate my "nature of dream control" thread into Russian. I can only hope it was for this group of dream hackers.
      Last edited by The Cusp; 09-09-2009 at 01:44 AM.

    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •