Thread: Why I believe shared dreaming may be unlikely...

Also...

I know for one, that If i had been born with such a disability, trapped in my own mind, that some of the very first things I would consider would be attempts at telepahy, dream sharing etc.
And considering, you would be spending every second of each day, trapped with nothing but your mind... that it would give you ample time to investigate and hone your skills.

When you compare people like this with such huge motivations, to a bunch of new-age westerners, who just-so-happen to have stumbled across shared dreaming, telepathy or any other of these skills... it really does put things into perspective.

No, its not conclusive evidence, but it's a hell of a compelling question isn't it?

If people are willing to spend millions developing devices that can allow the disabled to move a mouse cursor on a PC, via advanced brain scanning technology.... then, why, if there is such an easy to "stumble upon", ability for minds to reach beyond the confines of their body... why wasn't that ability the first port of call in research?

If you have huge limitations in your life, you tend to try and find solutions to those limitations.

To assume that perfectly coherent, normal human beings, who just so happen to suffer from bodily paralysis do not share the intelligence or insight to discover telepathy or shared dreaming, when a bunch of able bodied people have stumbled upon it and consider themselves "experts"... is condescending and offensive to those disabled people.

And if they had discovered it, would they not be shouting it out to the world? so they could help relieve the suffering of others like themselves?

Such as how Daniel Kish, the blind man who has developed the skill to be able to use echo location to help navigate around the world, and now teaches the skill to other blind people.
Why is it that he a blind man discovered it, rather than those of us who are not blind? because he had the motivation due to his limitations.
As I said before, necessity is the mother of invention...
Daniel Kish, had the necessity to overcome his limitations,
the same can be said for those with bodily paralysis...
but there are no Daniel Kish types in the community of those with sever bodily paralysis, using telepathic or dream sharing skills.


And this video is amazing, what an amazing man doing such a wonderful thing with his life, changing lives... and doing so in a way that makes perfect sense...

Seriously..?

You base your opinion on shared dreaming from SPECULATING about why a great mind who is physical handicapped did not discover shared dreaming?

How the hell do you know that an intelligent human who being is paralysed has not discovered shared dreaming?

Shouldn't they shout it out to the world? That is very naive to think that people think that way. If they shouted it out to the world who the hell would listen? Do you think scientist will come running to the rescue? How would an individual, disabled or not get the attention of scientist? Tell them they can share dreams and it's empirical testable? Hey wait, since it's not ALREADY discovered it's very unlikely it's possible! So why bother? Yup, circular logic.

Why oh why do you think that all people will come forth jumping up and down, test me! test me! They will expose themselves to ridicule from all sides. That includes scientist, most scientist are very fond of their reputation, and when their dogmatic friends comes nagging, well.. there you go.

I don't know why you think Stephen Hawking would spent time on dream sharing, why would he not think it's a waste of time? Why do you think his interest in dreams are extraordinary? He can communicate with others, he has probably accepted his condition and come to terms with it.

What makes you think that EVEN if people were as interested and open-minded as you think, that they would all learn to dream share? What makes you think that the dream world has any priority?

Can everyone become operational in the non-physical? in theory yes. But that is the same as saying everyone can become a pianist, astronaut and software engineer. Everybody can but not many do!

You are giving much too value in having the ability to share dreams, or be operational in the non-physical. It is much less important than living the physical life and take the opportunities that present themselves along the way, the lessons learned. The primary generator of those experiences and lessons come from waking life, with supplement from non-physical life. Some individuals have taken another path, and focuses more on dreams and such related "phenomena".

I have noticed that in many of your post regard such topics as this you often play on: Emotions, suffering, sadness and injustice. These seem the be the general theme throughout your post. It seems mostly groundless and plays on sympathy from the other part.

“Fundamental assumptions in general and scientific assumptions in particular are so hard to overturn because they are based on belief. Beliefs are so hard to overcome because they are irrational and therefore do not yield to logical argument.” ~ Thomas Campbell.

That quote sums a lot up.

And yes, you have seen my simple calculations on whether it's likely a blind person can "prove" OBE or not. It's pretty much the same in this case.

Open your soul and let the beauty of magic flow.

A skeptical heart is like a desert.
Only through tears of joy and acceptance can the flowers bloom.

Doubt is a vicious poison.

Originally Posted by ThirdEyeCrow

Open your soul and let the beauty of magic flow.

A skeptical heart is like a desert.
Only through tears of joy and acceptance can the flowers bloom.

Doubt is a vicious poison.

Being open-minded and sceptical goes very well together.

It is the best approach to exploring the possibilities and limits of reality.

It is always easier to be either too close-minded and sceptical, or too open-minded and not sceptical, but not as fruitful.

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

Being open-minded and sceptical goes very well together.

It is the best approach to exploring the possibilities and limits of reality.

It is always easier to be either too close-minded and sceptical, or too open-minded and not sceptical, but not as fruitful.

Thankyou kindly for your advice.


The word skeptical is a word with such negative vibrations.
It believe it hinders the flow of Chi.

Originally Posted by ThirdEyeCrow

Thankyou kindly for your advice.


The word skeptical is a word with such negative vibrations.
It believe it hinders the flow of Chi.

Yes, but it's not the word fault for that. It is the users of the word.

If one is going to find out whether one is experiencing is external or internal input one has to use scientific methods (Don't change the use of the word for the meaning of the word). We have to employ scientific methodology to know if what you are experiencing is the imagination or something "real" happening.

We need consistency, a lot of data, and results.

Let's say I am going to start healing people.

To know if I had any real affect I need many data points, because from a small sample I wouldn't know the difference between someone getting healed by my efforts or by individuals getting healed because they would anyway.

If you heal 100 different people, and only a small portion of them gets better soon after, it would probably be so because I had little to no effect.

But, if 50 of them gets better and the improvements are noticeable, then there probably is something about it. So we can use statistics see if it's happening or not. And by that we need many data points, so by starting collecting data one is already a good way.

Another example is about OBE. I would need many data points to evaluate whether the information is coming from me, or outside.

Another good thing with data is that progress or lack of can be seen. Let's say my healing or OBE efficiency is pretty much static, that could be seen if one collected data. After evaluation I would try another technique, test for some weeks, and compare the data with the prior. Progress is important, one should aim for getting better all the time, and without much to refer to, it would be hard to evaluate on current used techniques and methods for healing or OBE or anything else for that matter.

Being sceptical is part of that. You need a balance between being open-minded to new information, and sceptic enough to first put it to the test. By that I mean personal experience. Without personal experience we should be sceptic to not just accept new information without any data and experience to rely on. By also being sceptic one might not find some truths, but it doesn't matter. In the long run they will come as a natural result, if one continues along that path fearlessly.

just because anyone of these examples (as in Dr. Stephen) has not explored them doesn't make it mythical. Maybe a dream is just a dream to them, most people haven't heard of lucid dreaming, and maybe have never had lucid dreams, so why would they try to dream share? Why would they even believe in it?

Just because these people who are secluded have never spoken up means nothing. I can bet most of them have never even had a lucid dream, and if they were that disabled, how would they be able to communicate or research it?

I do not claim shared dreaming to be true, neither do I claim it to be false.
Here are some of my points of view.

-in favor of shared dreaming possibility:

1) I strongly believe that every idea human mind is able to imagine is somehow achievable, and waiting to be known

2) Putting things in perspective means to step away. What do we end up seeing? Two parties arguing - perspective: one situation; countless number of stars - perspective: one galaxy. How can I not find connections awaking and worth exploring? Just a philosophical thought which makes my heart lean to the idea, but my reason is in place of so far known facts.

- against the shared dreaming possibility:

1) There isn't really much difference between shared dreaming phenomena and telepathy, right? So if one who claims to have shared dreams can not communicate via thoughts while being awake....well that whole theory seems to be flushed down the toilette right there.

2) Facts.

3) Some basic psychology of self-suggestion

As for the "Necessity is the mother of invention" (which of course I agree on, but!), if the idea of shared dreaming turned out possible, it wouldn't be an invention, it would be a discovery. I believe the difference is obvious. At least in my opinion, discovery occurs while looking at the bigger picture, without being pressured by necessity.

I know this isn't direct physical proof, but I would swear on... well anything... that I am telling events as they happened. Yes, I would swear it in a court of law. Having said that...

WakingNomad and another friend of mine that I know IRL recently shared a dream. In that dream he was lucid and she was not. She didn't remember the dream. Nomad did. Since she didn't remember the dream, she asked for more information from Nomad. She asked for a more detailed description of her. And he nailed it! He didn't describe her as she physically looks in this world, but he described how she sees herself in her dream state and got even small details right such as her height, her hair length and color, a staff she was carrying, her clothing, and a specificly unique piece of jewelry she was wearing. She is not sure if she believes in shared dreaming, and she was officially creeped out by that. There is no way Nomad could have known these things! And I don't see how this could be faked (they never met or knew each other) or coincidence (there were too many accurate details). I don't know if you will consider this event as evidence since you didn't personally experience it, but I thought I would relate it to you.

Yes, this could be easily falsified, but I would swear in a court of law that this event occurred just as I related.

^ That experience sounds amazing.

I used to believe the concept of shared dreaming was silly but now I totally believe in it and in fact think I may have done it myself without realising it. I have just spoken to a DV member on here and there is no question that last night we dream shared.

In the dream I was with him but I was nonlucid and was talking about the people on dv and how they believe in dream sharing when suddenly he actually said to me "we're dream sharing right now you know". I thought he was just clowning around but then when I woke up there was a PM waiting for me on here and it was from him and it said stuff there's no way he could have known.

I am utterly blown away by this event. It has made me look at the universe in a new light.

I think all those with the ability should harness their gift and work on developing it as much as they can. I'm certainly going to.

I only wish I could go back to my youth and choose a career in the field of the paranormal. The young ones on here are lucky to have that chance and I would strongly recommend they don't let the opportunity get away.

There's some great books you might want to read on it space, or anyone reading this thread. Check out Waking Nomad's Books thread. I'm going to work my way through the list. I've already read the ones Chayba recommends and they're BRILLIANT. I highly recommend people get them and read them. In fact, I think if you don't you can't really call yourself an experienced shared dreamer!

PS the good thing about paranormal abilities is that the more you put in the more you get back. In other words, if you really put in the time and effort you can develop the gift to quite an astounding level. My aunt spent years meditating in the garden for half an hour a day and now she is unbelievable with what she can sense and predict. I haven't got time to go into detail but trust me, if you work at it, you can become amazingly proficient.

Read the books people!

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

^ That experience sounds amazing.

I used to believe the concept of shared dreaming was silly but now I totally believe in it and in fact think I may have done it myself without realising it. I have just spoken to a DV member on here and there is no question that last night we dream shared.

In the dream I was with him but I was nonlucid and was talking about the people on dv and how they believe in dream sharing when suddenly he actually said to me "we're dream sharing right now you know". I thought he was just clowning around but then when I woke up there was a PM waiting for me on here and it was from him and it said stuff there's no way he could have known.

I am utterly blown away by this event. It has made me look at the universe in a new light.

I think all those with the ability should harness their gift and work on developing it as much as they can. I'm certainly going to.

I only wish I could go back to my youth and choose a career in the field of the paranormal. The young ones on here are lucky to have that chance and I would strongly recommend they don't let the opportunity get away.

There's some great books you might want to read on it space, or anyone reading this thread. Check out Waking Nomad's Books thread. I'm going to work my way through the list. I've already read the ones Chayba recommends and they're BRILLIANT. I highly recommend people get them and read them. In fact, I think if you don't you can't really call yourself an experienced shared dreamer!

PS the good thing about paranormal abilities is that the more you put in the more you get back. In other words, if you really put in the time and effort you can develop the gift to quite an astounding level. My aunt spent years meditating in the garden for half an hour a day and now she is unbelievable with what she can sense and predict. I haven't got time to go into detail but trust me, if you work at it, you can become amazingly proficient.

Read the books people!

You fail again.

Have many times have you just commented with derogatory sarcasm. I have seen it coming many times from you. I hope your friend Spaceexplorer appreciate the derail attempt. Grow up..


-------------------------------------------------------------

Spaceexplorer.

There is a obvious thing to point out regarding your speculation.

We know and agree on that lucid dreaming exist. We don't agree on shared dream exist. It's the same with much of the scientific community (Ideally, in reality many people object to LD, scientist or not)

So why won't the disabled people learn lucid dreaming with all their passion? Lucid dreaming must give better "freedom" than shared dreaming, since in lucid dreaming you are always lucid.

Lucid dreaming was first recognised as reality in the 1980'ies. And we have been lucid dreaming for thousands of years. Why didn't all the people shout out to the world! Maybe they did, did it help? Not much. Think of the freedom all the disabled can get.. Why don't the disabled lucid dream every night? Since they are "trapped in their own minds, every single agonising second of each day." It is unrealistic to think that, and unrealistic to think that such speculation about shared dreaming is realistic too.

spaceexplorer, I typically enjoy reading your arguments (as long as they aren't sarcastic or disrespectful) but I have to say, that I do not believe you make a very convincing argument here. When I first saw the thread, I'll admit, I was honestly hoping for something a bit more. No offense.

Maybe I'm missing something. Has Stephen Hawking ever made comments about dreaming? shared dreaming? etc?

Does anyone really know how the conscience is connected to the body? If you argue that the conscious mind exists only in the brain as a result of it's neurons firing, then the argument about shared dreaming doesn't really matter. And if you argue that the conscience can exist outside the body, and uses the brain as a means of communication...then who can say how the brain of a handicapped person would handle things like dreams, memory, etc. If the connection is damaged, then how can you assume such people's minds would be able to function the same?

Also, what about autistic people who are prodigious savants? You keep saying, necessity is the mother of invention. Why would an autistic person who cannot properly function, have an amazing talent like playing the piano or drawing? What is the 'necessity' in that? How does musical talent facilitate their growth or evolution?

I don't get why you can't accept that this "has only just been invented". It may have been around for ages yet no-one has ever looking into it as hard as Nomad and Raven. They are the ones pushing into this unexplored skill.

The only thing which I doubt about this is the time zones... I still can't wrap my head around that

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

You fail again.

Have many times have you just commented with derogatory sarcasm. I have seen it coming many times from you. I hope your friend Spaceexplorer appreciate the derail attempt. Grow up..

After all the arguing I suppose I'm the last person you'd expect to see defending DreamQueen, but why do you assume that is a sarcastic remark? Why couldn't she be telling the truth? I don't know either way, but I do believe people can change their minds about something. A friend I know IRL is starting to believe it's possible to share dreams after some personal experiences. And sometimes it is one key event that makes that happen.

My opinion is this: It is useless to endlessly argue with people about what is possible. especially concerning shared dreams.

so wether you are a skeptic or practitioner. Just do what you do and make your case. Don't argue it. Just do it and let the facts of your experience speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

After all the arguing I suppose I'm the last person you'd expect to see defending DreamQueen, but why do you assume that is a sarcastic remark? Why couldn't she be telling the truth? I don't know either way, but I do believe people can change their minds about something. A friend I know IRL is starting to believe it's possible to share dreams after some personal experiences. And sometimes it is one key event that makes that happen.

It is very obvious if you know her on this forum. I have been here for a year now (and 2 days ) And I have seen her do the exact same thing 4-5 times before. In a very derogatory and denigrating way.

The sarcasm shines through.. strong.

Originally Posted by Tushix

this "has only just been invented". It may have been around for ages yet no-one has ever looking into it as hard as Nomad and Raven. They are the ones pushing into this unexplored skill.

That is quite a statement to make.

Originally Posted by Tushix

I don't get why you can't accept that this "has only just been invented". It may have been around for ages yet no-one has ever looking into it as hard as Nomad and Raven. They are the ones pushing into this unexplored skill.

The only thing which I doubt about this is the time zones... I still can't wrap my head around that

No, Nomad and I did NOT invent shared dreaming. I just wanted to make sure that was clear. That would be a lofty claim to make! It has been used by many peoples throughout history, it's just modern civilization that has written it off.

Edit:
I did some research on who has used it throughout history. I know Daoist and Tibetan monks, have done it for eons, Sufis, shamans all over the world have also used it. So no, we didn't invent it.

I agree with you, and I do not belive in beyond dreaming like dream sharing and such. But I don't think you should look at* "necessity is the mother of invention" as a nailed fact.So if dream sharing is possible, why isn't it a more known fenomenon? There are many billions of people on earth, why doesn't more people talk and write about this? I've never heard of any, nor have I ever seen any sign of dream sharing in my life. The emagination is you're only border, it makes sense out of random happenings and makes things that you have though of real. The same goes for astral projection, it might be a normal dream...?

I did a search and couldn't find anything about lucid dreaming and Stephen Hawking. Does that mean we've been wrong about lucid dreaming and it doesn't actually happen?

A funny misleading article I came across in that search was titled "Teaching dreams lure disabled to Delhi University". I though it was a job where they actually teach dreams that was attracting the handicapped, but it was the dream of teaching.

I bet he can LD he just doesnt want everyone to think he's crazy. Why is that so hard to understand Anyway we dont know what he thinks, we're not inside his head, so you cant use somebody else as an example.

Originally Posted by Ezzie_Ezz

Anyway we dont know what he thinks, we're not inside his head, so you cant use somebody else as an example

I've also been trying to find a discussion board for the disabled where I could ask about dreaming, but no luck so far. If anyone comes across any active ones, please let me know.

The same goes for discussion boards for twins. All the one I find are for parents of twins. I want to talk to the twins themselves! They share dreams all the friggin' time!

just yesterday i heard about the maharishi experiment where people (trained to do so) in the middle east during some war meditated at precise times and places. all fighting and deaths ceased stopped during those times. this became know as "the maharishi experiment".

perhaps it is more about our frontier of what we as mankind are willing to claim as our abilities and powers? no one person can do it, not even steven hawking. it must be done collectively.

even this board, dv, has taken collective advances in this direction of shared dreaming in just the time i have been on it.

science cannot prove it, but science has many limitations.

science cannot touch our grief or heal it, or explain our greatest moments of joy and revation. faith can.

and, can science really even explain compassion beyond it's being a self-serving tool of surival?

maybe we have untold capacities within us that science will uncover as its abilities to measure get stronger. ah... the limitation falls to science.

but who knows, maybe we'll get there, because in a holograhic, quantum world, even science admits that the observer influences the outcome!

we may be far more powerful than (even) we can possibly imagine!


warmly,
beachgirl

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I did a search and couldn't find anything about lucid dreaming and Stephen Hawking. Does that mean we've been wrong about lucid dreaming and it doesn't actually happen?

After posting in this thread I also did a relatively thorough search for Stephen Hawking and any comments regarding dreaming, lucid or not. This was the most I could find...

"Do you find yourself paralyzed in your dreams?" another TV reporter asked Stephen Hawking.

Hawking's computer replied: "No I don't. I move freely in my dreams. My handicap is not even noticeable."

and

I didn't see the Stephen Hawking lecture in Seattle yesterday, but then again, nobody did. I did see him when he came to town back in 1993 and again in 1996. I think it was during the 1996 appearance, after his presentation on imaginary time was complete and the floor opened to questions, the first person to the microphone asked, "Hello, Dr. Hawking, my name is ABC, and I'm an oneironaut. That means that I travel through space by means of dreams. I was wondering if your imaginary time has any connection to my ability to travel in this manner."

The sound of a thousand people rolling their eyes filled the room. "We have in our presence what many people consider to be the smartest living human being, we have time to ask him three questions, and one of them is this one!?"

We waited patiently for Dr. Hawking's response, which was basically, "No, I don't think so."