I'll be the first to admit this proves nothing...

**RCLefty** · 12-17-2009 10:23 AM

..but in my opinion, it raises uncomfortable questions for the whole OBE issue.

So, having been thinking about it for the last several days, I decided to give the whole OBE a try last night. Having read up on it through AquaNina's very well structured, if controversial paper on the subject, I felt confident that I could elicit an OBE, or its closest approximation, through a WILD. I tried the night before, as well, but was not able to stay lucid as I fell asleep.

The point at which I knew I was going to succeed was when I started getting what I call "the swings," which is a very distinct sensation of motion, specifically of swinging back and forth across a vast arc. When it is associated with visuals, it seems like each swing takes a quarter mile or so across the landscape, but in this case.

I was retaining a sort of back-burner lucidity, sort of separating myself from that "scattered thoughts" stage, where your brain starts answering its own questions about things it really ought not to know, and with answers that don't really make sense, but I sort of indulged it a little bit, not wanting to disturb the transition. I had this phrase, "going for a walk," but I didn't actually repeat it to myself, I sort of...sucked on the phrase, like a lozenge, if that makes any sense. It made sense at the time, is all I can tell you.

I did find myself in my room. I wasn't floating above my bed, though, not yet. I was staring at my ceiling, as if I were lying on my back, but I had been on my side when I started to drift.

I could hear my wife breathing, and I turned to look at her. And that's when it became very clear to me, that I was at least not lying on my back. Rather than turning over, I sort of swung, up and around, so I was floating over her.

I glanced at myself, but only very briefly. I was there, lying on my side, but it was a little bit disturbing, and I didn't linger on the sight.

I looked at my son in the co-sleeper, who was sprawled a little, which he usually is, and I felt a distinct pang of affection for him, which I usually do.

For a period of time which was not clear, I looked around my apartment. I don't remember exactly what I saw, except my boots and uniform by my desk, and the copy of Different Seasons by Stephen King on the dining room table, which I have been reading.

At some point, I floated up a floor to my upstairs neighbor's apartment, with the vague sense that it would be fun to hang out, even though I was in some sense aware that they would not see me.

I want to interrupt the narrative, briefly, to clarify that when I started this experiment, I did not believe in AP or OBE, which I have made clear in other threads. Yet, I would also like to take pains to insist that, during this experience, it never occurred to me that I was interacting with my environment as anything but an observer. Furthermore, I honestly took my surroundings at face value, and regardless of my conscious beliefs, I was fully immersed in the idea that this was the actual world, and I was actually observing it.

So, I floated straight upward. I did see some sort of layers between the ceiling and the next floor's carpet, but I honestly don't remember anything particular about what I saw there.

I floated up into my neighbor's living room. He, his girlfriend, and some three friends of theirs--whom I also knew--were sitting around his coffee table (a beautiful thing that is made from a cross-section of an enormous stump) passing a bowl of grass and listening to a girl playing folk songs on an acoustic guitar. (This is a perfectly reasonable thing to have seen in this apartment at 4 am on a Wednesday morning, incidentally.)

I recall looking with some longing at the glass pipe, having been forced to give up such habits when I joined the service. I even toyed with the idea of going back to my body to wake up, head upstairs, and joined them, but never did I seriously consider it. I lingered for a while. I think I remember the girl playing Dylan's "Tangled Up in Blue," but I can't tell for sure, because the music was hard to focus on.

The apartment, on the other hand, was rendered in exquisite detail. My neighbor has an impressive art collection, which I have always enjoyed, and each piece seemed to be were it was supposed to be, although at the time, I'm not so sure I would have known.

I flew around downtown Minot for a while, the traffic was very sparse, as would be expected, and I thought I should try to end the experiment then and there, before I lost my lucidity and forgot everything.

I started shouting, as loud as I could, trying to force myself awake. It was more than just shouting, but it's really hard to describe the other aspects of it, which is too bad, because I'd like to. I discovered this technique for forcing myself awake in the heat of a nightmare I had shortly after my son was born, when we were afraid for his health. This was the first time it has come in handy since then.

I did wake up, hit a wall of SP, and managed to get myself to moan load enough for my wife to shake me out of it. (I have SP frequently, and I don't enjoy it. I have trained myself to moan, not loudly, but audibly enough for my wife to hear, and she knows enough to help me wake up.) I thanked her, came to the living room, and recorded a spoken description of the dream on my computer, which I have just transcribed roughly into this post.

BUT:

It was not until I was describing the dream that I remembered that my upstairs neighbor is moving out, and when I visited him last weekend, all of his furniture was gone except for a cabinet, computer desk, and entertainment system. Even his artwork had been gone long before my dream, and he no longer sleeps or spends liesure time there.

No, obviously, this does not disprove anyone else's claims of having out of body experiences. But, it does demonstrate, I think quite effectively, that a realistic facsimile is quite easily possible. In other words, you are capable of dreaming something that is practically indistinguishable from a so-called OBE.

Considering this fact, coupled with the fact that real OBEs, if they existed, could be demonstrated fairly easily in controlled laboratory conditions, but have not been, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that the phenomenon does not exist as described by occult sources.

I am open to the hypothetical possibility that such evidence could appear, but until it does, I see no reason to take the idea seriously.

**juroara** · 12-17-2009 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Considering this fact, coupled with the fact that real OBEs, if they existed, could be demonstrated fairly easily in controlled laboratory conditions, but have not been, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that the phenomenon does not exist as described by occult sources.

I am open to the hypothetical possibility that such evidence could appear, but until it does, I see no reason to take the idea seriously.

I understand why your experience would make you doubt that OBEs are real. But I'm hoping you will at least remain open minded. Maybe your experience was just a dream.

But it doesn't mean everyone's experience was just a dream.

Just as you confirmed that what you saw in the OBE did not match the real time, other people have confirmed that what they experienced DID match real time. Down to what individuals were saying and doing at the same time.

Of course, that's just their words. And you have to decide whether or not you will trust another human. Or if you will be like naive skeptics and believe that everyone is either delusional or lying to you. If can postpone doubt- believe that these people are telling you the truth, as they have no reason to lie to you - this would open the door to take OBEs seriously again

One example would be the OBE's of hospital patients, where they can describe in vivid detail what the doctors were saying and doing from a vantage point above the room. All the while, while they are supposed to be 'unconscious' to virtually no brain activity state. And NOT in a dream state where sounds can become hallucinations. It's important to understand in these situations that the dream state is not unconscious. It's very much busy brain activity. While some of these individuals, were already declared dead.

The experiences of the OBE aren't confined to the room. Some of the patients have floated around the hospital, witnessing other real time events that were later confirmed to be true.

But.......................

There is something else you need to understand. The OBE is NOT the real time. It is an inbetween state between the real time and the astral. The astral is like a world of our thoughts..and memories. The stronger the memories, the stronger the reality.

In one of the hospital OBE's, a patient saw something in the hospital. I don't remember the specific details, but I think she saw a window - the color of the window - and the beautiful garden outside the window. She wanted to know if her experience was real. Just like you. She tried to find evidence of her vivid experience. To her dismay, she couldn't find a single window that matched her experience. Or the exact garden that she saw outside her window.

She wasn't ready to give up and say it was all a dream - because she also had a heavenly experience. She asks one of the nurses, and describes the window and the garden she saw. The nurse explains the garden is gone and so is the window color because they are remodeling that area.

So she didn't see the REAL TIME. Had she saw the REAL TIME she would have seen that there was an area under construction.

But what she did see was a reality on the astral - that contains the thoughts and memories of the employees of the hospital - who still remember the garden very well. Because they still remember the garden, it's still a reality on the astral. Astral projectors will all tell you, this is how the astral works. It's a reality of our thoughts and memories.

As for the big cheese, laboratory testings - from what I understand tests have been done/are being done. I can't completely confirm this yet because I honestly haven't cared to find absolute evidence of OBE's. So I don't know enough about these tests. But it seems that the scientists who are a part of these tests become believers very quickly.

I think one example would be 'MY BIG TOE'

**RCLefty** · 12-17-2009 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by juroara

Of course, that's just their words. And you have to decide whether or not you will trust another human. Or if you will be like naive skeptics and believe that everyone is either delusional or lying to you. If can postpone doubt- believe that these people are telling you the truth, as they have no reason to lie to you - this would open the door to take OBEs seriously again

Now, this loaded language is completely unnecessary. Naive skeptics? A desire for attention, or to appear "special" is plenty of reason to lie. I went to high school with a guy who constantly told made-up stories about being visited by aliens, or hacking into the CIA's computer systems, or other self-aggrandizing stories that he honestly could not see were so obvious to everyone else.

I, myself, under peer pressure in a Christian group, greatly embellished a story of a simple close call on the highway, making it sound as if I had been saved by a miracle. The conclusion of a miracle was nowhere in evidence in the real story of what happened to me that day, but practically inescapable in my edited version. I was about twenty years old, when this happened. Yes, I have grown up since then, but I know many people in their forties or older, even one lady in her nineties, who are no more emotionally mature than I was then.

I have had several experiences in my life when it has become obvious to me, either during the conversation or afterward, that people with no material investment in a debate nevertheless lied just to support their worldview.

Yes, people lie--not for no reason--but often enough for reasons that can be made to seem like "no reason" for someone who wants to believe. Now who's being naive?

And it doesn't have to be a lie, per se. As I have said elsewhere, an anecdote is a claim about a memory of a perception of an event. Memory is very fallible, and memories can be fabricated by hypnotists or unscrupulous therapists. They can be altered over time by a person to assuage guilt, or appease denial, or better conform with a worldview. Perceptions are no better. People are often duped by illusions. People get a little kick out of those pictures of optical illusions, and completely miss the point they are supposed to convey, which is that your brain makes mistakes all the time, throughout every day.

Originally Posted by juroara

As for the big cheese, laboratory testings - from what I understand tests have been done/are being done. I can't completely confirm this yet because I honestly haven't cared to find absolute evidence of OBE's. So I don't know enough about these tests. But it seems that the scientists who are a part of these tests become believers very quickly.

Test are being done, every day, about every paranormal claim under the sun. It is absolutely not true that "scientist who are a part of these tests become believers very quickly." I'm at a loss as to where you could have gotten that impression. In fact, every time a test comes up that shows a positive result for supernatural phenomena under laboratory conditions, it always turns out, without fail that the researcher running the study already believed in the phenomena under evaluation, and ALSO that basic experimental controls are being ignored.

That is the reason that these positive results are never published in scientific journals or taken seriously by mainstream scientists; the positive results always come from sloppy experiments. Properly controlled experiments have always had negative results for the paranormal. Always.

**Idolfan** · 12-17-2009 07:16 PM

People who are into this stuff would say that you saw your neighbour's furniture because although in the physical it has been moved, it still leaves a scar on the etheral world because of how many times it has been seen there. Makes, sense somewhat.

**RCLefty** · 12-17-2009 07:51 PM

That's a very good point.

The problem with these paranormal claims is that they are very loosely defined, and hence the believers can make them "do" anything they want. One could also say I travelled into the past, if they were so inclined.

Personally, I find the idea that my coffee table has a "soul" to be very odd, if not to say cheap and tawdry.

What people don't realize is that it takes more than simply being capable of formulating an answer that would work to satisfy Occam's Razor. There's no cohernet theory of how the phenomena work, no productive cooperation with researchers, and no questions being answered.

In order for a theory to be taken seriously, it must, at a minimum, offer an explanation for some range of observed phenomenon that is consistent with our understanding, and is a better explanation than existing theories.

**Rainman** · 12-17-2009 08:32 PM

I agree with you, RCLefty, about taking this from a skeptical point of view. I WANT OBE's to be real, and for the longest time, I thought they were, until I had a very similar lucid experience to this one.

Originally Posted by RCLefty

The problem with these paranormal claims is that they are very loosely defined, and hence the believers can make them "do" anything they want. One could also say I travelled into the past, if they were so inclined.

They belief amongst most 'avid OBErs' is something that I personally believe myself- time is not linear. Human beings need time in civilized societies of any kind so that we can understand things like age, or so that we can meet someone somewhere at a specific "time." But in my opinion, 'time' is nothing more than an attempt at measuring a progression of moments. "I do THIS, then I do THAT, thus, inbetween there was time." But if you ask me, this measurement of passing moments is just perspective. In reality, from each individual's perspective, there can only be NOW.

Then there's the philosophic deeper look at memory. There are those who believe that during an OBE, your consciousness exists on a different plane of existance, where time truly is nonlinear, but perhaps more directional. With that concept, having seen a neighbors art that is no longer there would make sense to me. On some level, a memory is still a real occurance. To the person experiencing the memory, they can "go back in time" and literally relive the experience exactly as it happened.

This can be taken to such an extent that someone could be asked about a color of a shirt their friend was wearing 4 years ago on a specific, random, unimportant day, and the person could meditate on it and remember. That, in it's own way, is someone like time travel. One could argue that that is a result of the incredible power and potential of the subconscious mind. That's my belief. But there are other possibilities as well.

Just my .02.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by juroara

One example would be the OBE's of hospital patients, where they can describe in vivid detail what the doctors were saying and doing from a vantage point above the room. All the while, while they are supposed to be 'unconscious' to virtually no brain activity state. And NOT in a dream state where sounds can become hallucinations. It's important to understand in these situations that the dream state is not unconscious. It's very much busy brain activity. While some of these individuals, were already declared dead.

I call bullshit. Sorry. One of my primary areas of study for years has been consciousness, and how to manipulate it to do seemingly "superhuman" things. While you are "unconscious" it could be said that you have a much more highly critical brain activity. You subconscious is always active. Typically, most people only consciously use perhaps 10 to 12% of their mind's power. The rest is always active, and most people just don't know how to access it.

It is equally, if not more realistically that while a person is under on an operating table or having an NDE or whatever, your subconscious mind is equally capable of hearing, and reciting things exactly as they happened whether "conscious" or not. You are ALWAYS conscious. Understand that there are different forms of consciousness. Why do you think coma patients who are GONE for months at a time, can still hear every word that people say in their dreams? This is no different. For all you know, and OBE/NDE is just a dream. Whether they are "declared" dead or not, the brain still sends electrical signals for at least 5-7 minutes after "death" occurs. It's equally possible that the person used their.... oh yeah.. their EARS, and heard what the docs were saying. So no. That's debunked. That wasn't a good example.

Again, I'm not closed minded from this stuff... I wrote more posts on OBE's and shit a long time ago probably than anyone else has anytime recently. I'm just taking a much more critical look at things now.

**Naiya** · 12-17-2009 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rainman

Typically, most people only consciously use perhaps 10 to 12% of their mind's power. The rest is always active, and most people just don't know how to access it.

Speaking of debunked, this is a myth and has been debunked for years. Please do not parade urban myth as scientific fact if you want to be taken seriously.

**Rainman** · 12-17-2009 10:01 PM

Yeah, except I didn't say you only use 10 percent of your brain. I said you consciously use only that percent of your brain. I made the percent up, but regardless, that much IS true. Most people will only ever consciously utilize a small percentage of what they are capable. You're not good at this whole trying to make me look dumb thing that you keep trying to do. So do you have anything... relevant to contribute or add onto, or disagree with that I said, or the actual topic of the thread? Or did you intentionally ignore the subject to try and call me out AGAIN on something you misread? Just curious.

**Naiya** · 12-17-2009 10:06 PM

Oh, cool, got a legitimate source for that? Because I sure don't remember learning it in physiology. Oh wait, you made it up. Why is your made up factoid not bullshit, but someone else's opinion is? Because yours sounds more pseudoscientific? Their theory is just as good as yours, since neither has any proof.

Also, give me some credit and at least read the article instead of just the title. Because it does cover many variations of the myth, including yours.

Maybe you should read the thread mentioned in the OP before accusing me of not contributing to the subject.

**nina** · 12-17-2009 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Having read up on it through AquaNina's very well structured, if controversial paper on the subject, I felt confident that I could elicit an OBE, or its closest approximation, through a WILD.

Just to be clear...I didn't write that. Stephen LaBerge and Lynne Levitan did. Paper being referred to: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=88325

Also...keep it civil people. You can discuss things and debate without being rude and insulting, k?

**nina** · 12-17-2009 10:41 PM

If you want to continue the argument, do it in PMs. Anymore posts like that are getting deleted. Back on topic guys...

**Specialis Sapientia** · 12-17-2009 10:54 PM

RClefty.

The only way to find out whether it's real or not is to do this many times, and gather data points.

One experience is not to much use when evaluating something as fundamental as reality.

So, if you are good with WILDS, just keep on doing it. Many many times.

Be diverse in your travel "out of body", keep finding new ways to validate the experience. For example, if you choose to visit some you know, call them immediately after you wake up and find out what they were doing.

Being open-minded and sceptic is the only way to really know for yourself.

"Considering this fact, coupled with the fact that real OBEs, if they existed, could be demonstrated fairly easily in controlled laboratory conditions, but have not been, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that the phenomenon does not exist as described by occult sources."

Well well, don't be too sure of that..

**nina** · 12-17-2009 11:20 PM

I've been able to find personal proof for the existence of many strange phenomena...but OBEs remain some of the only experiences I have been unable to find enough proof in their existence to truly believe they are real. It is rather frustrating in fact...because my gut tells me that it is more than "just a dream" ...especially when I consider that I have found proof in stranger things. When I say proof here or personal proof...this just means, enough evidence from my own personal experiences to reasonably assume the existence of something.

When I first started having these experiences with sleep paralysis and felt like I was having OBEs or APs, I was anxious to prove it and set up an experiment using playing cards. However I could never get it to work, could not find any proof that OBEs are more than a mere dream. Sooo even though I'm very very open to it...and am still working on finding my personal proof...for now, I have to consider these experiences during SP as some form of dream.

Now, I recently had an experience that was like nothing I have ever experienced before...and is quite different from the majority of OBEs that seem to spawn during SP. If real OBEs do actually exist...then I would assume this is one. I do not feel confident enough to discuss it here though, especially when I don't have my proof yet...but I'm working on it. And if I find proof to safely assume that it was not an OBE, I will share that as well.

**LucidFlanders** · 12-18-2009 04:44 AM

Why do people rely on personal truth? personal truth means nothing really. If i said i talked to god, it was from a dream, i did not actually talk to god, mostly because god does not exist IMO.

**juroara** · 12-18-2009 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by RCLefty

Now, this loaded language is completely unnecessary. Naive skeptics?

I am not calling skeptics naive, I'm sorry for that miss understanding.

I am making a distinction between a skeptic and a naive skeptic. The naive skeptic assumes that everyone is either delusional or everyone is lying. In other words they aren't actually skeptics, because they believe that 100% of the people experiencing this phenomena is wrong. Even if the numbers are in the thousands!!!

I, myself, under peer pressure in a Christian group, greatly embellished a story of a simple close call on the highway, making it sound as if I had been saved by a miracle. The conclusion of a miracle was nowhere in evidence in the real story of what happened to me that day, but practically inescapable in my edited version. I was about twenty years old, when this happened. Yes, I have grown up since then, but I know many people in their forties or older, even one lady in her nineties, who are no more emotionally mature than I was then.

I have had several experiences in my life when it has become obvious to me, either during the conversation or afterward, that people with no material investment in a debate nevertheless lied just to support their worldview.

Yes, people lie--not for no reason--but often enough for reasons that can be made to seem like "no reason" for someone who wants to believe. Now who's being naive?

We were talking about OBEs. This was the context of having no reason to lie. Yes, I understand that people lie. But to assume that everyone who has had an OBE and confirmed that they witnessed real time events is a straight out liar - is being paranoid

The point I am making here is there is little and nothing to gain for someone to lie about OBE. For one thing, it's still a pretty taboo subject matter. Try talking about OBEs in public, and most people will look at you crazy. And if you talk about OBEs with religious circles, they might think you are some sort of satanist and harass you till the end of days

Your example doesn't change my point. There are plenty of christian churches out there that have only one objective in mind - get more members. They're obsessed with numbers. They lie and create stories all the time. We all receive these imaginary miracles in emails.

I honestly to God hate imaginary miracles. But the experiences I am talking about did not benefit any specific religion, or church. They didn't receive money, and again, OBEs and astral projection still isnt something you can openly talk about and expect positive attention. In fact, many of them admit that their experienced was received poorly by loved ones. And also, teenagers don't count. I don't care what teenagers say, they're all ass stupid in my opinion. All the experiences I am talking about happened in older married adults, who had more of an obligation to be 'normal'

And many of these experiences were experiences before people knew what OBEs are or NDEs for that matter. All they knew was that they experienced something they had difficulty explaining or even sharing with other individuals.

It was only when a large number of people experienced the same odd thing - did the terms OBE and NDE come into existence

And it doesn't have to be a lie, per se. As I have said elsewhere, an anecdote is a claim about a memory of a perception of an event. Memory is very fallible, and memories can be fabricated by hypnotists or unscrupulous therapists. They can be altered over time by a person to assuage guilt, or appease denial, or better conform with a worldview. Perceptions are no better. People are often duped by illusions. People get a little kick out of those pictures of optical illusions, and completely miss the point they are supposed to convey, which is that your brain makes mistakes all the time, throughout every day.

I'm sorry to break the news to you.....But reality is perception!!!! It really is!!!

While we believe we live in an objective reality, you will never have objective truth of it. Everything you perceive, from dreams, to illusions, to what you call reality is actually perceived the same way in the brain. Signals. Your brain relies entirely on these signals to tell it what is happening in the environment.

But these signals only perceive the environment. And our human perception is extremely limited. We experience less than 1% of reality. The truth is, we never see the true reality of reality.

Don't believe me? It is a scientific fact that if we could actually see the entire spectrum of the electromagnetic spectrum, EVERYTHING WOULD GLOW. In fact, everything is already glowing!!! That is the reality. And we don't see this reality. None of us look in the mirror and think of us as radiant literally glowing beings. But we actually are. Light emits from our body.

Interestingly enough, spirituality tells us that we are radiant beings.

You seem so worried and afraid to put so much faith into people's perceptions of reality. This is a desire to find objective truth. If you're looking for science to tell you what is reality and what isn't.......I'm sorry to tell you but science can't actually tell you this. You think it does, but all you would be doing is falling into the same old materialistic traps that are actually self delusions. Like genetic determinism - which science has actually recently proven to be false

Even though has proven genetic determinism to be wrong, materialists refuse to believe it.

You used illusions as an example of the weakness of the human brain. But what objective proof do you have that it isn't actually the other way around???

That reality is too, an illusion?

Test are being done, every day, about every paranormal claim under the sun. It is absolutely not true that "scientist who are a part of these tests become believers very quickly." I'm at a loss as to where you could have gotten that impression. In fact, every time a test comes up that shows a positive result for supernatural phenomena under laboratory conditions, it always turns out, without fail that the researcher running the study already believed in the phenomena under evaluation, and ALSO that basic experimental controls are being ignored.

It sounds more like you're talking about paranormal investigators who research ghost phenomena. In this case, yes, most of them do come already believing.

But there are scientists who spent their lifetime researching what they considered the material world. Who were not spiritual. Who did not believe in the soul. But through their study of the so-called material world came to the conclusion that mainstream science was wrong - and spirituality was right

They came to this conclusion because of science, because of NEW discoveries in science. Don't look at your textbook. It's not there yet.

That is the reason that these positive results are never published in scientific journals or taken seriously by mainstream scientists; the positive results always come from sloppy experiments. Properly controlled experiments have always had negative results for the paranormal. Always.

I was SPECIFICALLY talking about the research done about OBE's. But you changed the subject to all so called paranormal research. I didn't say that these things were never published. That was your assumption. I only said I have never bothered looking into it because it did not matter to me.

Experiments will always have negative results for the paranormal......because there is no such thing as the paranormal. I don't believe in the paranormal either

What you WILL find in PUBLISHED scientific journals, and in scientific discussions around the world - and by true scientists who have been given AWARDS who are RECOGNIZED and leading scientists of their own fields................is that the scientific model taught to you in school...is WRONG

New science is showing us and revealing to us that reality is probably like an onion. It has many layers to it. And the old science has only studied ONE layer. What are these other layers? Do they also hold consciousness?

New science is showing us that everything in the universe is intimately connected. So connected, that there is a direct connection between consciousness and matter. A study that is under going today by many scientists actually. We haven't reached the final conclusion yet, but these scientists are at the edge of their seats

New science is showing us that the universe is a fractal, patterns in nature repeat itself. This has biologists who study evolution or cell biology jumping up and down with glee. Why? Because the secret to our FUTURE evolution is there, it's all written out in the pattern.........Global peace is sooner than we realize.

New science is showing us that belief controls biology. This is one I've spent the most time interested in. So I can tell you more about this one if you would like. You actually control your DNA more than your DNA controls you!! The Bruce Lipton who came up with the term, biology of belief, was once a materialist. He became a believer in the human soul THROUGH SCIENCE. He was NOT initially a believer.

He also teaches that when science makes a discovery, a break through even, that it can take up to TEN YEARS for the public to know about it. Why so long? Not all discoveries easily translate into profit, like hair-loss drugs. Other discoveries require more research, but funding is slow to come by.

Scientists can't rely on the media to spread their news anymore. They have to write their research into books to get the word out. The problem here is, not all scientists are gifted with the ability to dumb down their research so the average man can understand it. And understand why it's important to humanity. It can take a few years for their research to become something meaningful for the average man.

What this also means is, what you consider to be mainstream science can actually be years behind where true scientists actually are. There are so many discoveries being made that are not in the media. And are only published in scientific journals with language that only another colleagues could know.

Neither will you find a whole lot online. I find to really get to the bottom of things, you need to get to paper.

Again, I'm willing to offer you direct quotes or links concerning biology of belief - and why this once materialist is now a spiritualist. The others, I'm still trying to save money to purchase their published books (I'm going to buy a book this weekend actually) And I'd rather have the books in hand because usually the scientist will explain the specific experiments that led them to their conclusions

And this is NOT speudo science.

And...........while none of the researches that I have read about were specifically about OBE's, many of them suggest that we have a field of consciousness. Which could explain the OBE phenomenon.

Now is not a good time to be a complete nonbeliever - now is a good time to look forward to science merging with spirituality

**juroara** · 12-18-2009 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Why do people rely on personal truth? personal truth means nothing really. If i said i talked to god, it was from a dream, i did not actually talk to god, mostly because god does not exist IMO.

because all you have is your own personal truth

what you perceive to be reality is always, and always will be, only your perception of reality. no two people experience reality exactly the same way

**RCLefty** · 12-18-2009 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by juroara

I am not calling skeptics naive, I'm sorry for that miss understanding.

I am making a distinction between a skeptic and a naive skeptic. The naive skeptic assumes that everyone is either delusional or everyone is lying. In other words they aren't actually skeptics, because they believe that 100% of the people experiencing this phenomena is wrong. Even if the numbers are in the thousands!!!

But this is quite exactly what I think, and I submit that there's nothing naive about that. The number of people making a claim has absolutely nothing to do with its credibility. "Thousands" of people claim to have had religious experiences in support of mutually exclusive doctrines. "Thousands" of people claim to have seen demons. "Thousands" of people have been abducted by aliens.

This argument proves that you misunderstood my whole thesis. If we can assume, for the sake of argument, that my experience in the OP was just a dream, does it not stand to reason that that could happen "thousands" of times?

Originally Posted by juroara

We were talking about OBEs. This was the context of having no reason to lie. Yes, I understand that people lie. But to assume that everyone who has had an OBE and confirmed that they witnessed real time events is a straight out liar - is being paranoid

That's not what I said.

Originally Posted by juroara

The point I am making here is there is little and nothing to gain for someone to lie about OBE. For one thing, it's still a pretty taboo subject matter. Try talking about OBEs in public, and most people will look at you crazy. And if you talk about OBEs with religious circles, they might think you are some sort of satanist and harass you till the end of days

It seems to me that people like yourself would provide an adequately large and receptive peer group. And I am by no means suggesting that all or most people who claim to have had OBEs are lying, in the first place. I am only pointing out that the question of honesty is a possible failure point for all anecdotes.

Originally Posted by juroara

I'm sorry to break the news to you.....But reality is perception!!!! It really is!!!

While we believe we live in an objective reality, you will never have objective truth of it. Everything you perceive, from dreams, to illusions, to what you call reality is actually perceived the same way in the brain. Signals. Your brain relies entirely on these signals to tell it what is happening in the environment.

But these signals only perceive the environment. And our human perception is extremely limited. We experience less than 1% of reality. The truth is, we never see the true reality of reality.

This point is extremely disingenuous. Your worldview is the one making assumptions and speculations.

Originally Posted by juroara

You seem so worried and afraid to put so much faith into people's perceptions of reality. This is a desire to find objective truth. If you're looking for science to tell you what is reality and what isn't.......I'm sorry to tell you but science can't actually tell you this. You think it does, but all you would be doing is falling into the same old materialistic traps that are actually self delusions. Like genetic determinism - which science has actually recently proven to be false

Even though has proven genetic determinism to be wrong, materialists refuse to believe it.

Straw man. You accomplish nothing for your case by discrediting genetic determinism. Unless you can do the same to Determinism as a philosophy, you've added nothing, here.

Originally Posted by juroara

You used illusions as an example of the weakness of the human brain. But what objective proof do you have that it isn't actually the other way around???

That reality is too, an illusion?

Well, if reality itself is the illusion, then the concept of "objective proof" is meaningless, and this conversation is pointless. Furthermore, the issue of OBEs would be espcially meaningless, since there would be no meaningful distinction between objective reality and astral reality.

Originally Posted by juroara

But there are scientists who spent their lifetime researching what they considered the material world. Who were not spiritual. Who did not believe in the soul. But through their study of the so-called material world came to the conclusion that mainstream science was wrong - and spirituality was right

Name one.

Originally Posted by juroara

What you WILL find in PUBLISHED scientific journals, and in scientific discussions around the world - and by true scientists who have been given AWARDS who are RECOGNIZED and leading scientists of their own fields................is that the scientific model taught to you in school...is WRONG

Then, you should have no problem demonstrating this point.

Originally Posted by juroara

And this is NOT speudo science.

Well, it walks like a duck...

**nina** · 12-18-2009 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Why do people rely on personal truth? personal truth means nothing really. If i said i talked to god, it was from a dream, i did not actually talk to god, mostly because god does not exist IMO.

Well...I don't care if you talked to God or you just think you talked to God. Makes no difference to me one way or the other. But if I talked to God myself, and found enough evidence to consider it as more than a dream...then that's different. Get it?

**LucidFlanders** · 12-19-2009 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Well...I don't care if you talked to God or you just think you talked to God. Makes no difference to me one way or the other. But if I talked to God myself, and found enough evidence to consider it as more than a dream...then that's different. Get it?

Not really because it still does not mean it's true.

**nina** · 12-19-2009 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Not really because it still does not mean it's true.

So what does make something "true"?

**LucidFlanders** · 12-19-2009 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Aquanina

So what does make something "true"?

When someone can prove something to more people then themselves.

**nina** · 12-19-2009 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

When someone can prove something to more people then themselves.

So...if you can prove something to someone else, then it's true? How many people have to believe in something before it becomes true?

**LucidFlanders** · 12-19-2009 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Aquanina

So...if you can prove something to someone else, then it's true? How many people have to believe in something before it becomes true?

Evidence helps and a personal proof does not count. People call personal proof on things they dont know or understand like dreaming and meeting a spirit in your dream and calling it real. What you dream about is all from waking life on what your subcon has saved.

**RCLefty** · 12-19-2009 06:39 AM

What is true, is what it is, regardless of how many people believe or don't believe it.

I think (and he is free to correct me if I am wrong) that what Lucid Flanders is trying to say is that people can easily convince themselves of things that do not reflect that truth, and that they do so because of one or another type of wishful thinking.

LF, (may I call you LF?) you say that there is no God, and one who talks to God is actually talking to one's self. As it happens, I agree with this, but it is important to clarify that that is, itself, only one more belief. It may turn out to be wrong.

I arrive at this position by applying Occam's Razor. And no cold logician was he, either, by the way, but a Catholic Priest of great personal courage. Occam instruced us "Do not multiply entities beyond necessity." In other words, if a proposed entity aspires to explain a state of affairs that is better explained with smaller, fewer, or previously established entities, then that entity is "beyond necessity," and ought to be ignored as a possible explanation.

I feel this way about god worship, as I also feel about OBEs, AP, "shared dreaming," telepathy, and other claims.

And lo be upon a proposed entity that would cause observable effects which are not in evidence! At least the proposed "God" has a system of mythology explaining why He never interferes, or does so only in clandestine fashion. If people could leave their bodies and return with intact memories of the experience, we have a right to expect, if not demand that this be proven beyond a doubt, which should happen very easily.