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      Member BohmaN's Avatar
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      Is awareness impossible?

      Is complete sustained awareness just a myth? All of us, especially lucid dreamers, consciously highten our awareness during the day to increase our chances of becoming lucid at night. But usually, in my experience, such complete awareness only lasts for a couple minutes or so at max. Scientists also confirm this; the brain doesn't cope being aware all the time. It's just too much information for the conscious mind to handle over longer periods. Theoretically, it's certainly possible to be aware and mindful all the time, though let's face it, you aren't, unless you are a pro haxxor thai buddhist. No but seriously, who would even want to be mindful all the time? I sometimes have daydreams and thought processes going for a long time and in the end, it sometimes gets to a point where I reach a solution for something extraordinarily difficult. So losing yourself in thinking is good, I persist, although it certainly deters your mind from sensory input (that is, being mindful), and decreases your chances of DILDing...

      Usually in my attempts to be fully mindful, I let my mind go blank and focus entirely on sensory input (a mix of them, some focus is on the snow I'm seeing and some is on the feeling of snow being squeezed beneath me (and yes, all I can see is snow, Swedish winters are a bitch)). Usually the following thought pops up after a while: "yeah wonderful, snow... damn this requires a lot of effor... Right no thinking". I continue my attempt at mindfulness. Then a couple of minutes later I suddenly realize I became unconscious somewhere along the way. Damn. I try again and the same thing happens. If you were to be awarded a million dollars if you managed to be completely mindful and thoughtless for a full day (at least not focusing on what's popping up for more than a sec), I MAYBE would be able to pull it off, after which I'd probably resign to a one week coma for being completely mentally drained.

      So, what are your thoughts on this?
      Last edited by BohmaN; 02-25-2010 at 11:08 PM.
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Some Insane Bitch ReachingForTheDream's Avatar
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      I've wondered this too. I would agree it's probably impossible. I certainly get tired of being aware. It's very draining. And plus there are times when you don't want to be aware, like if you're in pain.

      I think it's especially hard to be aware while focusing on a task. If I'm doing any work at school or anything I can't last consciously through it. It's distracting and tolling on my mind.
      Lolwut.

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      How tall is your orange? Moonsong's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BohmaN View Post
      All of us, especially lucid dreamers, consciously highten our awareness during the day to increase our chances of becoming lucid at night. But usually, in my experience, such complete awareness only lasts for a couple minutes or so at max.
      I try to keep myself from thinking those of us who focus on LDing aren't "superiorly aware" than most of alert consciousness, but we are, at least to some extent. Frankly, it seems that the ability to realize we are rarely fully focused is a pretty rare skill. Good LDers take this to a different level, noticing not only their lack of focus during the day, but being capable of waking their subconscious while asleep.

      I don't think it is possible to be fully aware. I'm just glad I recognize it as an issue.

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      Member Robot_Butler's Avatar
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      I think it would be impossible to live a fun and balanced life while being constantly aware. Sometimes, being lost in something is a positive experience. The times I lose myself the most are when I am really into a painting, reading a great book, or deep in thought on a complex design problem. I think I would have to give these things up if I wanted to be constantly aware.

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      Some Insane Bitch ReachingForTheDream's Avatar
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      I was thinking about this again. Even though we are not fully aware all the time, I think that when you try to be you will always be on a slightly elevated level of awareness. Most of the time I'm somewhat aware, I have this sense of knowing what's around me and will think about it. It also will trigger full awareness more often.
      Lolwut.

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      Shameless Zenarchist Speesh's Avatar
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      There's more awareness than you can conceive of in your natural state, which is effortless being. Trying to force it can only bring you so far. Just let things be as they are. The more your brain gets the hang letting things be the more awareness flows through.

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      Member TJuulsgaard's Avatar
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      A good source for inputs on "awareness" would be Eckhart Tolles book "The Power of Now". Although it doesn't mention Lucid dreaming in any way. Tolle speaks about being in the now - having a still mind. He and other believes this is the way to enlightenment and greater psychic abilities.

      To have a still mind makes you more aware and reduces the amount of energy you use up when you have a lot of worrying and stray thoughts in your head all the time. (the last one is a theory of the great Thomas Campbell, author of "My big TOE".)

      Thats in theory, in reality you REALLY have to work for it... though it gets easier and easier, like an upward going spiral.

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      Don't know, I guess it's possible but highly improbable for most people to obtain.

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      Some Insane Bitch ReachingForTheDream's Avatar
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      When I read all this stuff about meditation it mentions hows yogis are taught to constantly be aware. I have to wonder about that. I'm curious if anyone can say that they know someone who can do that?
      Lolwut.

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      Member BohmaN's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Speesh View Post
      There's more awareness than you can conceive of in your natural state, which is effortless being. Trying to force it can only bring you so far. Just let things be as they are. The more your brain gets the hang letting things be the more awareness flows through.
      When I read all this stuff about meditation it mentions hows yogis are taught to constantly be aware. I have to wonder about that. I'm curious if anyone can say that they know someone who can do that?
      Eckhart Tolle discards thinking and say "just be" instead, which is quite funny and actually egoistic (ironic isn't it), because thinking is what have created everything in this world, which of course Eckhart lives in uses, as we all do. You leave others to think for you. If everyone would apply his philosophy, then there wouldn't be much prosperity left in this world.

      Seeing thinking as bad and the main source of suffering is really a narrow perspective... it's so much more.

      But I'm interested in this. Is it really possible to obtain an effortless awareness? Just "being"? Sounds quite wonderful actually. But can we really achive effortless being without limiting our thinking, which is crucial for functioning and survival in this world (unless you become a monk full time)
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Member TJuulsgaard's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BohmaN View Post
      Eckhart Tolle discards thinking and say "just be" instead, which is quite funny and actually egoistic (ironic isn't it), because thinking is what have created everything in this world, which of course Eckhart lives in uses, as we all do. You leave others to think for you. If everyone would apply his philosophy, then there wouldn't be much prosperity left in this world.

      Seeing thinking as bad and the main source of suffering is really a narrow perspective... it's so much more.

      But I'm interested in this. Is it really possible to obtain an effortless awareness? Just "being"? Sounds quite wonderful actually. But can we really achive effortless being without limiting our thinking, which is crucial for functioning and survival in this world (unless you become a monk full time)
      Thats actually not what Tolle says... He wants us to get rid of all the negative mind chatter and use the brains analytic power whenever needed. He couldn't have written his books without it...
      Think of all the negative chatter going on in your brain all day long, often building up problems in your mind - its the ego speaking.

      An ego driven by fear - thats human nature. He wants us to grow our consciousness by not "over-thinking". There is a time for analytic thoughts and a time for stillness of the mind. The perfect combination makes a happy human being - and should have a lot of positive sideeffects.

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      Quote Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard View Post
      Thats actually not what Tolle says... He wants us to get rid of all the negative mind chatter and use the brains analytic power whenever needed. He couldn't have written his books without it...
      Think of all the negative chatter going on in your brain all day long, often building up problems in your mind - its the ego speaking.

      An ego driven by fear - thats human nature. He wants us to grow our consciousness by not "over-thinking". There is a time for analytic thoughts and a time for stillness of the mind. The perfect combination makes a happy human being - and should have a lot of positive sideeffects.
      I see, so he doesn't not advocate full time awareness (since when you think, your automatically less aware of your enviroment and sensory input). Which balance does he suggest? I usually spend my time thinking a lot, positively and realistically, and I try to avoid negativity, and thinking helps me greatly. Actually you get nothing done when you're just aware, and I wouldn't say it's a profound spiritual experience to be in the Now, even though it certainly is a virtue to be able to focus fully whenever you want. But if it wasn't that it helped lucid dreaming a bunch I wouldn't practice it as much.
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Member TJuulsgaard's Avatar
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      I think you need to find a balance for yourself. There is a time for thinking and a time for stillness. When "in the Now" you see things clearer, some would also say that you are open for creative inputs - happiness comes easier. Happiness is a "divine" feeling, not a superficial egodriven feeling like almost every other feeling.

      The more you are "in the Now" the more your consciousnes is raised - that gives a lot of benefits for you as a person (and for mankind as Tolle speaks of in "The new Earth).
      You start making decisions without your fearbased ego having control, you are in control of your feelings. According to another great Consciousness-guru, Thomas Campbell, you also get easier acces to psychic abilities.

      I'd advise you to dig into Tolle if you want to now more, its a great read, with lots of advice.

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      Member BohmaN's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard View Post
      I think you need to find a balance for yourself. There is a time for thinking and a time for stillness. When "in the Now" you see things clearer, some would also say that you are open for creative inputs - happiness comes easier. Happiness is a "divine" feeling, not a superficial egodriven feeling like almost every other feeling.

      The more you are "in the Now" the more your consciousnes is raised - that gives a lot of benefits for you as a person (and for mankind as Tolle speaks of in "The new Earth).
      You start making decisions without your fearbased ego having control, you are in control of your feelings. According to another great Consciousness-guru, Thomas Campbell, you also get easier acces to psychic abilities.

      I'd advise you to dig into Tolle if you want to now more, its a great read, with lots of advice.
      I've read The Power if Now and it got me insane for 1 month as I was trying to fully incorporate his theories into my life and then I realized it's too much of a wishful thinking... We live in an ego based world. First of all you need to make money. In order to do this for most people you need to you need to elbow your way through, or you'll be stuck at zero. You can't be a humble little man staring into space all day. You need to be compatible with the world also, so if you stick out too much, like tolle, you'd have a hard time getting a job.

      But if you can make your living some other way, then great! Go for it, as long as you stay grounded. Don't lift off. I was kind of making this mistake.

      I must add though that evolution encourages egoism, and you're an organism from years and years of evolution If you shut off your impulses, you'll loose a lot of stimulation required for you not to get depressed. For example. You play guitar, get feedback, you become stimulated and motivated to do more. Some people claim you can have an inner frame, thus not needing external feedback to be happy, as you know already from your strong sense of self-knowing and perspective what's good for you. While it is good for appearing less egoistic, it doesn't really give you the same stimulation as external feedback could, which is absolute. Your own observations might be faulty, you never know. Plus, you risk loosing touch with the world, your grounding... Feedback comes naturally if you socialise normally. Your neurotransmittors will then be inevitably stimulated, creating pleasure. Shunning this pleasure, like Tolle, and completely entering your own reality, I think is just harmful.
      Last edited by BohmaN; 03-05-2010 at 10:28 AM.
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Member TJuulsgaard's Avatar
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      I can see what you mean, but don't entirely agree with you ; ) I don't think you need to elbow your way through life... in fact I totally disagree with that. I know its what many, many people do. But does it make them better persons by doing that? No. Are they happy because they do that? I don't think so. Are there another way to do things? Definately!

      In our search for material wealth (I'm also a victim myself - not some blessed bezzerwizzer (I only appear this way on certain forums : )) we create a life that isn't neccessarily good for us and our conscious evolution. Did you see the world recently (You only need to turn on the news) and see how money and interests are ruining it.

      Eckhart Tolle doesn't says in his book that a person with a greater consciousness interacts better with the world around him, than a egodriven person always trying to fulfill his next ego/fearbased need.

      I think it is a good message, something worth pursuing, even though it is difficult for all of us. I think you judge Tolle to hard, he never says anything about spending your life staring into the "nothingnes" only that he started out his newfound knowledge by doing this. Then he went on to studying lots of books on the subject. He is a very succesful man, and he did this without using elbows and by using his analytic mind.

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      In our search for material wealth (I'm also a victim myself - not some blessed bezzerwizzer (I only appear this way on certain forums : )) we create a life that isn't neccessarily good for us and our conscious evolution.
      I totally agree it's not optimal but still, you have to succumb to this as you are in fact living in a material world.

      I don't think you need to elbow your way through life...
      In sports you definately have to if you wanna get anywhere. Although elbowing might not be the best word to describe your job and economy, there is a lot of competition there as well. Being humble will only get you so far... You need to aggressively seek new ground in order to expand on this tough market. A will to become the biggest and the best (ego) of course helps. "Being with what is", as Eckhart states repetedly, doesn't really get you anywhere as far as carreer is concerned, although I could agree it helpes finding stillness and reduces stress.
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Dream artist 1495's Avatar
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      Great thread.

      Tolle's books helped me alot but my experience is more important to me than his.
      We are all learning to become our own Gods, to create our own reality. Our ego counsciousness is ment to sustain us through life while we can not sustain our selves. Some of us, (alot of people on this forum), are starting to discover our own divine creativity, but creativity without awareness is pointless. Part of what I get from Tolle and other councious thinkers is that we should not only become aware of our physical enviroment but also of our thoughts. Your mind goes on thinking all day and all night wether you are aware of it or not and if your not aware of it you can't edit or monitor its contents. Your thoughts create your reality especially while dreaming/lucid dreaming where you are free to create. Earth is ment to stimulate us into being untill we can stimulate our selves; to "counsciously" create our selves.

      Can we be totaly aware all the time?
      Do we want to?
      One time in a dream while I was trying to create my enviroment to my liking, some one said to me to "create it from a some-what uncounscious state and learn to manipulate it. If you create it from a totaly counscious state it won't seem real to you." We need to learn to use our counscious and uncounscious minds after all we did develope them both for a reason.

      I dont know, just a thought, but Im glad so see so many interested in and able to consider such things.
      Happy creations.
      Last edited by 1495; 03-05-2010 at 06:52 PM.
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      You can be mindful through just about anything:


      It's not something you strain to sustain, but something you renew when necessary, and relax into. You also need not be mindful of the senses only; mindfulness is pervasive and penetrating, inward as well as outward. It's not about erasing the viewer to leave only the viewed, but uniting viewer and viewed in a single stream of awareness, so that rather than you acting upon the world, the world acts through you.
      BohmaN likes this.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      Member BohmaN's Avatar
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      Yes, 1495, to me this is a highly interesting topic. Not only for lucid dreaming but for all of our lives.

      Quote Originally Posted by 1495
      One time in a dream while I was trying to create my enviroment to my liking, some one said to me to "create it from a some-what uncounscious state and learn to manipulate it. If you create it from a totaly counscious state it won't seem real to you." We need to learn to use our counscious and uncounscious minds after all we did develope them both for a reason.
      Interesting, thanks for sharing. I agree with you.

      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur
      It's not something you strain to sustain, but something you renew when necessary, and relax into.
      What do you mean "renew when necessary"?

      Sure it's relaxing, for a while. Then you realize countless thoughts are knocking on the door to your awareness, and you're stuggling to ignore them.

      You may ask: how can it be an effort to just be? It seems like the most effortless thing in the world. Then you forgot the power of your thinking (not used here as the traditional new ageish term...). It has the power to knock your awareness to oblivion when you least expect it and without you realizing it.

      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur
      You also need not be mindful of the senses only; mindfulness is pervasive and penetrating, inward as well as outward. It's not about erasing the viewer to leave only the viewed, but uniting viewer and viewed in a single stream of awareness, so that rather than you acting upon the world, the world acts through you.
      To me, there is only thinking and the 5 senses (feelings and states of mind incorporated into "sensing"), that one can focus on. What else is there? Divine energies of the unknown? Possibly. The Divine Field of Consciousness is a compelling idea, although a different topic entirely.

      So. Thinking (including all forms of imagination) and your 5 senses. Where should my awareness be? Effortlessly scattered a bit here and there, making no effort of any sort to actually direct it? Just letting it all flow through you... wonderful... BUT....

      Here's the paradox. When you make no effort and let your awareness play around, you risk slipping into unconsciousness.
      Last edited by BohmaN; 03-05-2010 at 08:25 PM.
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Shameless Zenarchist Speesh's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by BohmaN View Post
      Eckhart Tolle discards thinking and say "just be" instead, which is quite funny and actually egoistic (ironic isn't it), because thinking is what have created everything in this world, which of course Eckhart lives in uses, as we all do. You leave others to think for you. If everyone would apply his philosophy, then there wouldn't be much prosperity left in this world.

      Seeing thinking as bad and the main source of suffering is really a narrow perspective... it's so much more.

      But I'm interested in this. Is it really possible to obtain an effortless awareness? Just "being"? Sounds quite wonderful actually. But can we really achive effortless being without limiting our thinking, which is crucial for functioning and survival in this world (unless you become a monk full time)
      I see what you mean. I'm not really advocating Tolle here, if anything I suggest you read up on J Krishnamurti. Instead of trying to control the thinking, let everything happen as it is. Be aware of the thinking without condemning it as a good or bad thing.

      One thing Krishnamurti likened thinking to is reading a book. When we read we tend to get caught up in the words. We lose awareness of the page the text is written on, the edges of the book, and what lies beyond the edges in our periphery. When we think we get caught up in the monologue, and lose awareness of the act of thinking and the thought process itself. He suggests being a passive observer of these processes. Trying to discipline the mind only brings about more problems.

      Thinking does have the tendency to drag us back into unawareness, I think that's where traditional Buddhist meditation comes in. Enough concentration to be able to let this effortlessness take effect. Take everything I say with a grain of salt though, as I don't exactly have it myself either. I'm just rehashing what other people say about it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BohmaN View Post
      What do you mean "renew when necessary"?

      Sure it's relaxing, for a while. Then you realize countless thoughts are knocking on the door to your awareness, and you're stuggling to ignore them.
      There is little difference between mindfulness practice and seated meditation. If you go astray into racing thoughts or zoned-out vacuity, simply acknowledge that your mind has done what mind does and begin again. There's nothing to be gained by judging the thoughts or "struggling to ignore them." It may help to quietly name whatever activity arises: "planning," "worrying," "judging" or simply "thinking." If you can get your hands on Jack Kornfield's A Path with Heart, he devotes a whole chapter to "Naming the Demons." If your thoughts are bringing up feelings of anger or frustration, you may also want to practice some loving-kindness meditation, so that you can acknowledge them more gently.

      Quote Originally Posted by BohmaN View Post
      You may ask: how can it be an effort to just be? It seems like the most effortless thing in the world. Then you forgot the power of your thinking (not used here as the traditional new ageish term...). It has the power to knock your awareness to oblivion when you least expect it and without you realizing it.


      To me, there is only thinking and the 5 senses (feelings and states of mind incorporated into "sensing"), that one can focus on. What else is there? Divine energies of the unknown? Possibly. The Divine Field of Consciousness is a compelling idea, although a different topic entirely.

      So. Thinking (including all forms of imagination) and your 5 senses. Where should my awareness be? Effortlessly scattered a bit here and there, making no effort of any sort to actually direct it? Just letting it all flow through you... wonderful... BUT....

      Here's the paradox. When you make no effort and let your awareness play around, you risk slipping into unconsciousness.
      Mindfulness isn't about finding the "right" state of mind and holding onto it or chasing after it; it's about working skillfully with whatever arises. It's not the mindfulness causing you strain and dissipating your energy, but the clinging to one set of phenomena (the senses) and struggling against another (thoughts).
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      mod note: discussion started in another thread ~Taosaur

      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur
      1. Samadhi
      Which is what, deep meditation?
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BohmaN View Post
      Which is what, deep meditation?
      Hrrm, variable usage. Sometimes used to denote progressive stages of awareness or enlightenment, but here I'm using it in the sense of individual episodes of uniting with and seeing through phenomena, not necessarily during formal meditation.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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      uniting with and seeing through phenomena
      That's quite vague. Could you please explain more?

      Seeing the emptiness in all of existance or being connected with your true self or soul or something like that?
      Currently practicing WILD. I quote Kaniaz who said it best: "The point of WILD is to piss me off". Though, I have not given up, far from it.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BohmaN View Post
      That's quite vague. Could you please explain more?

      Seeing the emptiness in all of existance or being connected with your true self or soul or something like that?
      Heh, if it could be explained, no one would need to meditate, right? I'm really using the term "samadhi" even more broadly (and probably somewhat incorrectly) to denote any 'special effects' associated with meditation and mindfulness practice, be they visions, visualizations, realizations, strong physical sensations, perceptual shifts or any combination of the above.

      But in terms of my description above, "uniting w/ phenomena," it's the direct experience of not only the emptiness of forms, but the interdependence and fundamental unity of all things: seeing our world's illusory separation of object from object and moment from moment as the radiant corona of the eternal and indivisible now.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



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