CanisLucidus

Wow, that sounds really intense. But it sounds really fun! I love the whole setup, it's great. XD

And I like how you became barefoot immediately just because you wanted to be, that's what I'm talking about!

Thanks, it was a whole lot of fun! Afterward, I was pleased with myself for rolling w/ the dream plot without letting myself forget that it was a dream. You can still get really into the experience, although admittedly not with full gullibility/buy-in like in a non-lucid. But it's a very enjoyable thing to do and a skill that I've been hoping to grow.

And I like how you became barefoot immediately just because you wanted to be, that's what I'm talking about!

Yes! I think that this is the soul of dream control. You just act like something is inevitable or has even already happened. Do you remember when you explained the idea of the hippocampus managing the model of the world, with the sensory parts of the brain working off of that data? And how there's a certain "lag" sometimes between changing the hippocampus's model and what shows up in your vision?

I think that by being convinced that what you see is real, you create a self-sustaining feedback loop where you are constantly "writing back" the information from this visual/sensory data into the hippocampus, solidifying it, hardening it, and making it real. That's because we're used to waking life, where our internal model of the world can (and must) change based on what our senses tell us.

But it's the opposite in the dream world! In the dream, the data model drives the sensory model, end of story. So if you look away (or mentally blow off the sensory model as irrelevant), all that's left is to change the data model. And that part is, it seems, largely malleable by the imagination. Think of the maps we build in our heads of the places we imagine! I can mentally walk through levels of my favorite video games years after, or design a memory palace from scratch. This is just... very exciting to me!

So basically, I am parroting back a bunch of stuff you already knew and had already told me, but with words that push all my "software developer" buttons and make me feel all giddy.

Oh, badass! Love my part too, that's freaking awesome

While not the same as your ninja dream, still very ninja-esque. Nice job with the shoes!

Thanks, it was a whole lot of fun! Afterward, I was pleased with myself for rolling w/ the dream plot without letting myself forget that it was a dream. You can still get really into the experience, although admittedly not with full gullibility/buy-in like in a non-lucid. But it's a very enjoyable thing to do and a skill that I've been hoping to grow.

That was very nice, I was impressed. You were able to get really into it without loosing track! You're getting better and better at this.

Yes! I think that this is the soul of dream control. You just act like something is inevitable or has even already happened. Do you remember when you explained the idea of the hippocampus managing the model of the world, with the sensory parts of the brain working off of that data? And how there's a certain "lag" sometimes between changing the hippocampus's model and what shows up in your vision?

I think that by being convinced that what you see is real, you create a self-sustaining feedback loop where you are constantly "writing back" the information from this visual/sensory data into the hippocampus, solidifying it, hardening it, and making it real. That's because we're used to waking life, where our internal model of the world can (and must) change based on what our senses tell us.

But it's the opposite in the dream world! In the dream, the data model drives the sensory model, end of story. So if you look away (or mentally blow off the sensory model as irrelevant), all that's left is to change the data model. And that part is, it seems, largely malleable by the imagination. Think of the maps we build in our heads of the places we imagine! I can mentally walk through levels of my favorite video games years after, or design a memory palace from scratch. This is just... very exciting to me!

So basically, I am parroting back a bunch of stuff you already knew and had already told me, but with words that push all my "software developer" buttons and make me feel all giddy.

Hehehe, well I'm glad you're getting into it. And you're absolutely right! I even remember reading some study, I wish I could remember exactly what it was but it was a while ago... but it talked about how the feed starting at one end of the visual cortex and projecting to the other end and then to places like the hippocampus that normally only flows in that direction while awake begins to flow both backwards and forwards during dreams. Which very much proves what you just said if you ask me! That's why dropping awareness is so great, because if you ignore everything then you can change anything. n_n

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

Oh, badass! Love my part too, that's freaking awesome

Yeah, you were really cool! You'll have to tell me some time how you could see all that stuff?

While this dream didn't rise to the badassery of the typical stuff from your DJ, I think that your presence and the content were somehow related. Either the realization that I was having an action-y dream called you up to mind or you'd have popped up anyway and the dream started to take on a few of your stylings.

Originally Posted by NewArtemis

While not the same as your ninja dream, still very ninja-esque. Nice job with the shoes!

Thanks! And yeah, this reminded me of the ninja dream as well, simply because it was so recent and my attire was so similar. I didn't feel nearly as agile and it's hard for me to imagine any continuity of story, but just like I was really reminded of that other one.

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

That was very nice, I was impressed. You were able to get really into it without loosing track! You're getting better and better at this.

Thanks, I hope so! I see DJ entries where people walk this line between following the dream plot but retaining their lucidity, and I'm slowly trying to learn that myself as well.

Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Hehehe, well I'm glad you're getting into it. And you're absolutely right! I even remember reading some study, I wish I could remember exactly what it was but it was a while ago... but it talked about how the feed starting at one end of the visual cortex and projecting to the other end and then to places like the hippocampus that normally only flows in that direction while awake begins to flow both backwards and forwards during dreams. Which very much proves what you just said if you ask me! That's why dropping awareness is so great, because if you ignore everything then you can change anything. n_n

Ah hey, very cool! I love being able to tie this back into something relatively concrete like that. Doesn't it just make so much sense based on what we observe during actual LDs?

Wow, when you called it "dropping awareness" you gave me a thought. Okay, so let's say that you want to engage in some hardcore dream control. There are two steps. First, you have to drop or reduce your sensory awareness, particularly in the area of the thing you are trying to change. This is so that you don't keep writing this info back to, say, the hippocampus, which would keep the world far too persistent for your liking. Second, you must willfully change the data model yourself while sensory awareness remains at least partially suspended.

We also know that a good way to stay solidly locked into a dream is to engage your sensory awareness. But that's not ideal for dream control, it seems. Is this why making big dream control changes can sometimes be so destabilizing to a dream scene? If so, I'll chew on my fingers or something the next time I'm trying to do some advanced phasing or major conjuring. =D

Ah hey, very cool! I love being able to tie this back into something relatively concrete like that. Doesn't it just make so much sense based on what we observe during actual LDs?

Wow, when you called it "dropping awareness" you gave me a thought. Okay, so let's say that you want to engage in some hardcore dream control. There are two steps. First, you have to drop or reduce your sensory awareness, particularly in the area of the thing you are trying to change. This is so that you don't keep writing this info back to, say, the hippocampus, which would keep the world far too persistent for your liking. Second, you must willfully change the data model yourself while sensory awareness remains at least partially suspended.

We also know that a good way to stay solidly locked into a dream is to engage your sensory awareness. But that's not ideal for dream control, it seems. Is this why making big dream control changes can sometimes be so destabilizing to a dream scene? If so, I'll chew on my fingers or something the next time I'm trying to do some advanced phasing or major conjuring. =D

Yes! This is part of what I've been trying to say all along. Awareness vs control! But awareness is of course good for stabilization, so you either have to be very strong-willed at the time or you have to use it sparingly. But that dropping awareness to change something is exactly how my dream control works, especially with how I shapeshift, and how I summon things usually. It was also involved with the way I changed the DC who was walking behind the other DC. And actually, I totally forgot to log this but I had a non-lucid the other day where I used this to completely change scenery by blinking multiple times.... I need to remember to try that again in a lucid!

Yes! This is part of what I've been trying to say all along. Awareness vs control! But awareness is of course good for stabilization, so you either have to be very strong-willed at the time or you have to use it sparingly. But that dropping awareness to change something is exactly how my dream control works, especially with how I shapeshift, and how I summon things usually. It was also involved with the way I changed the DC who was walking behind the other DC. And actually, I totally forgot to log this but I had a non-lucid the other day where I used this to completely change scenery by blinking multiple times.... I need to remember to try that again in a lucid!

Isn't it impressive that I pick up on things after only having them repeated 5-6 times, max?

The blinking thing sounds cool! I am still a big fraidy-cat about opening or closing my eyes in an LD (a fear which was reinforced a couple dreams back when I accidentally opened my real eyes and lost an LD.) I have many things like this to get over. The to-do list is long.

And as usual, so cool that all your dream control tricks show up in non-lucids so much! I was talking with Art about this recently. She was pointing out how she transforms all the time in non-lucids and how confident that helps her feel about plans to transform in an LD. I, on the other hand, have to give myself a big "Come on, CL, you can do this!!" pep talk because I'm literally trying that stuff for the first time.

Isn't it impressive that I pick up on things after only having them repeated 5-6 times, max?

The blinking thing sounds cool! I am still a big fraidy-cat about opening or closing my eyes in an LD (a fear which was reinforced a couple dreams back when I accidentally opened my real eyes and lost an LD.) I have many things like this to get over. The to-do list is long.

And as usual, so cool that all your dream control tricks show up in non-lucids so much! I was talking with Art about this recently. She was pointing out how she transforms all the time in non-lucids and how confident that helps her feel about plans to transform in an LD. I, on the other hand, have to give myself a big "Come on, CL, you can do this!!" pep talk because I'm literally trying that stuff for the first time.

Hehe, don't worry about it, it's one thing to just hear it from someone and quite another to see it in action through experience. It'll all become clearer and clearer the more you get lucid.

I don't blame you on the eye thing either, I've definitely been nervous about that. Notice that this dream with the blinking was a non-lucid lol. It'll get easier though, I found that I become more confident with that stuff the more I got used to not really having to stabilize, just knowing that the dream will already be stable because there's no logical reason it wouldn't be. I think it helps to just ignore your real body, which you're obviously not doing if you're worrying about that. Actually, just thinking about it now makes something come to mind.... Like we've talked about before, when you're dreaming your real senses aren't shut off, it's just that your body is paralyzed and your eyes are closed and those senses are drowned out in the dream because you don't realize that they're there. But those senses are still just players in your perception like anything else in your dream, because it's all in your mind and this is when your mind is at its most suggestive. What the whole shutting out the real world explanation ignores is the fact that your senses are still picking up your body, which means it still exists in your inner world even in a dream. Therefore the more focus you put on it the more you give life to it, and then if you worry about moving your real eyes you're setting up the expectation that they will by making them exist in your world, just like when you give power to a wall by actively trying to make it disappear. So you just have to ignore your real body totally. I never really thought about it like that before, but that is pretty much how I've started getting over those fears. Does that make sense? I'm not entirely sober right now lol.

Oh and yeah, it's great to have control in non-lucids. Maybe you should try something that I saw BrandonBoss talking about the other day.... Try incubating dreams where you visualize yourself using dream powers. He said he used to do that all the time and he started using non-lucid powers often and was able to get lots of lucid powers out of it really quickly, and he's like a dream control pro!

Like we've talked about before, when you're dreaming your real senses aren't shut off, it's just that your body is paralyzed and your eyes are closed and those senses are drowned out in the dream because you don't realize that they're there. But those senses are still just players in your perception like anything else in your dream, because it's all in your mind and this is when your mind is at its most suggestive. What the whole shutting out the real world explanation ignores is the fact that your senses are still picking up your body, which means it still exists in your inner world even in a dream. Therefore the more focus you put on it the more you give life to it, and then if you worry about moving your real eyes you're setting up the expectation that they will by making them exist in your world, just like when you give power to a wall by actively trying to make it disappear. So you just have to ignore your real body totally. I never really thought about it like that before, but that is pretty much how I've started getting over those fears.

I agree!! I have never benefitted from giving much thought to my paralyzed, sleeping (and likely drooling) body. Every now and then I'll give it a fleeting, unwelcome thought, but I try to snap right back.

The fact that people successfully utilize EILD (externally-induced lucid dreaming) techniques demonstrates pretty clearly that the physical senses are always in danger of intruding!

What makes the eyes serious business is that they are one of the few parts of the body not paralyzed! If I start fretting about the difference between my dream hands vs. my real, paralyzed hands, I'm going down a bad road, but recovery is quite possible. But if I have some fleeting thought about my physical eyes while trying to open my dream eyes? REM atonia can't save me and the experience is probably over. (I fell into this trap myself recently, so it still stings.)

Does that make sense? I'm not entirely sober right now lol.

LOL! Yes, don't worry it really does make sense.

Oh and yeah, it's great to have control in non-lucids. Maybe you should try something that I saw BrandonBoss talking about the other day.... Try incubating dreams where you visualize yourself using dream powers. He said he used to do that all the time and he started using non-lucid powers often and was able to get lots of lucid powers out of it really quickly, and he's like a dream control pro!

Well I think this sounds like a great idea! I am not as strong as I would like in dream incubation, although I do luck out sometimes and have stuff show up from recently-consumed media. Add this to the list of reasons that dream incubation is great. I used to be able to do it when I was a little kid, but that was such a long time ago. It's been less than a year since I rediscovered dreaming at all, and basically between now and childhood I all but ignored it.

Hopefully it's "like riding a bike", as they say. Considering how long it was since I last attempted it, it better be exactly like riding a bike.

Damned coughing! I really wanted to know what happened next!

Damned coughing! I really wanted to know what happened next!

Ha! You and me both, brother!

I've gotta get this cough thing settled. How much can I take of these "you wake up coughing up a lung just when it gets good" dreams?

Pretty cool, sounds a bit like the ninja dream

Bummer that coughs are awful and ruin everything ><

Pretty cool, sounds a bit like the ninja dream

I totally agree. Even though I couldn't make any real story connection between the two, the outfit and the whole "drop you in the middle of a bigger story" feel seemed so similar. Art made the same observation in an earlier comment too!

Bummer that coughs are awful and ruin everything ><

I know, man! I've felt pretty good for a few days now but the cough and runny nose don't seem to be weakening as quickly as I'd like.

Ah well. At least it's giving me a ready excuse to indulge in a bit of menthol.