Thread: Lucid Dreaming Book Club (March-April)

I am glad it is on audible. I would never have the time to read a book, lol.

I have read this book, it's great, however, I think I'll read it again. In any lucid dreaming book, I love reading the chapters on how to get to lucid. I always find something I forgot, or, haven't practiced, or something completely new.

Started this book last night. In Ch. 3 somewhere.

I like how he talks about lucid dreaming not taking away from regular dreaming, after facing criticisms about it. I've always felt that way, too, and it's in line with how I lucid dream most of the time (outside of LDs where I am trying to complete tasks). It doesn't take away from regular dreaming because you can still interpret things in a lucid dream, so long as you're not creating those things directly. Also, it can give greater clarity than a regular dream because all we are doing is bringing heightened awareness, memory, and logical thinking into the dream setting. What we do with our dream is all up to us.

In fact, the way I like to LD, I like to follow along with the plot and setting, not controlling the dream, but only controlling myself. This type of LD can give greater insight into the psyche than a regular LD, especially if you follow a Jungian or similar school of thought. And it can still be a high level lucid, even if you're not controlling things.

“No sailor controls the sea. Only a foolish sailor would say such a thing. Similarly, no lucid dreamer controls the dream. Like a sailor on the sea, we lucid dreamers direct our perceptual awareness within the larger state of dreaming.” - Robert Waggoner

HumbleDreamer asked me my thoughts on this book last summer on this thread . So I read the book then and this is what I had to say about it then:

Spoiler for Thoughts on the book last summer:

I enjoy reading people's experiences with dreams and that book is full of that. I guess you are right to bring it up, he kind of has this similar journey as Kixerus in the first third of the book. He discovers lucid dreaming, discovers his abilities in dreams... and then... discovers limitations. He comes to the conclusion that some DCs are independent sentient agents... and then that the Source of the dream is itself a sentient agent. Well, I do have thoughts about that.

If you are in a state to observe thoughts as they appear and go spontaneously... if you were then, after the fact, to wonder, "why did I have those specific thoughts?" Perhaps you could determine some of the factors and you could concede that you don't know all the factors. But overall, "I" am not the cause without a cause of my thoughts, emotions, and impulses. They sort of arise on their own... from the subconscious. This is the case for everything, (even things as simple as the impulse to go get a snack as you feel hungry).

But Robert Waggoner and many of us, we don't realize that. We only really are confronted with that in dreams when presented with such amazing dream content that we can't imagine being the cause without a cause that created it. For Waggoner, that's some non-complying DCs and fun mystical themed dreams with dissociated voices. For me, it's my second intentional lucid dream: I come across a tree and I am amazed by the detail. I touch a leaf and the surrealist moisture rolls onto my finger. I am in awe. A DC makes some vulgar commentary on the scene and distracts me. There was no doubt in this dream. I did not conceive and create these details like a meticulous artist. Yet, this sublime experience arose from the same place as the vulgar comments from the passerby (she said "my dog shat many seeds of these trees in my backyard, cool, huh?"). Another example is recently in an encounter with a DC with a dream guide role. I surrendered to him. He took control over the dream and led to a dream that was surprisingly very relevant to me (in terms of teaching me something). When I explained to a friend, they just missed the point of the dream. This is because the real value of the dream is MY interpretation. Like any spontaneous thought you feel you have or you feel some other entity within you has, it's all the same, and at the end, you interpret it. Anything a DC says, however surprising, is something you thought.

It's so hard to explain because it's so hard to understand intuitively... How can you imagine a person as a "thought form"? That's so hard to think of. I still can't do it satisfyingly! It's so easy to get immersed in a show, and live vicariously through fictional characters and form some unilateral relationship with them! And parasocial relationships with celebrities! We're just wired this way. I still don't know how to see past that illusion when meeting DCs. (Please help me with this. I'll be very grateful when I can).

But when Waggoner, Kixerus, or I encounter a DC and perceive them as a person... if we tell them "you are not real, I am dreaming!" doesn't it make sense that our belief/feeling that this is a person nonetheless will lead them to "surprisingly" deny it: "No, I am a real person!" and SHOCK we respond with "omg... I guess you are?" Then, this can only assure us that it will continue to happen... When Waggoner continues exploring asking the dream questions, he has already made the assumption that there is a second sentient agent present. Anything that ensues will concur with that belief, no surprise there.

About a second sentient agent within our mind, I do not think that goes against what we have discovered in neuroscience. Look up Split-Brain experiments. Sam Harris' book "Waking up: A guide to spirituality without religion" has helped me advance my conclusions on those types of experiments. So I think it's for sure possible that we have overlapping consciousnesses.... But the subconscious being conscious... it's possible. But it arise from the causal question...
Why is there a universe rather than not? What caused it? (Some answer gods, but then, why are there gods rather than not?)
Why is there consciousness rather than not?

The problem with answering these causal questions is if we "create" an answer from our imagination, there's no reason not to continue doing so eternally. In my dream example, who created that amazing tree??? My subconscious as a conscious agent? But in that case, what is their experience like? Do they also think like I do? If they meditate, can't they themselves come to the realization that all their thoughts and creative outbursts also arise spontaneously? Well it should be so! So, my enlightened subconscious would then wonder, where has the idea of the tree come from? Well, from the subconscious' subconscious obviously! And then we can imagine an infinite amount of layers of subconscious consciousnesses. My point is not that there can not be another sentient agent within us, just that, at some point, this game becomes irrelevant and must end somewhere... and it might really end with us. Our subconscious might well be... unconscious. It's so difficult to imagine what the subconscious is like, I still don't get it. But I think resolving this dilemma by treating the subconscious simply like another entity... is not a lucid solution (if not at least a sincere attempt at making sense of something incomprehensible).

I see I'm writing a lot, so I'll give it a break. But the rest of Wagonner's book is about personal experiences that hint at magic. That's all a lot of fun. But, he has a degree in psychology. He was president of an association for the study of dreams! Why am I reading personal stories? Why am I not reading a review of peer-reviewed studies on the matter? He tells a story of a woman who effortlessly asks her subconscious to heal her cancer in a dream and... the next day, she is completely healed. Obviously, he wrote this in his book to hint that our subconscious has the power to heal cancers... so where is that study? Why are we not living in a world where health is attended to by spiritual specialists? What this woman did was very basic. Actually, he does elaborate a list of important factors for success. They all seem reasonable and easy to practice. All in all, I believe he is sincere and that he shares many of my fantasies but I think it's clouding his mind.

Now, it's almost been half a year so to summarize my thoughts, I would repeat the quote MoonageDaydream brought up:

Originally Posted by MoonageDaydream

“No sailor controls the sea. Only a foolish sailor would say such a thing. Similarly, no lucid dreamer controls the dream. Like a sailor on the sea, we lucid dreamers direct our perceptual awareness within the larger state of dreaming.” - Robert Waggoner

I like his dream example of an "OBE". He describes being lucid in his front yard, when someone approaches on a bicycle. He hides on the roof as they throw something at the house. When he wakes, he finds the newspaper was delivered. This reminds me of my experience of seeing my brother approach the house while I was lucid, then a moment later, in waking life, he rings the door bell.

I'm not sure if OBEs are different from lucid dreams or not, but if they are, these are good examples!

So, reading chapters 4 & 5 has made me think about the way I attempt to go places within the dream. I like how he talks about the importance of intention, and focusing on the goal rather than getting there. I think what I will do next time is practice on only focusing my mind on where I want to be. Let the dream take me while I focus on the end goal only. Something to practice.

Finished reading this today. Honestly, the 2nd read through was great. There was so much I forgot about that I wanted to try out. Here's my original review with an edit for the 2nd read-through from Goodreads.

Spoiler for Review:

This book is a journey to personal spirituality and awareness through lucid dreaming, not so much a lucid dreaming tutorial (if that's what you're looking for). He writes it more like a series of lucid experiments, which I love. Asking the dream source to experience "unconditional love" is one of the existential experiments he describes, and after reading it, I tried it as well. It was an amazing experience.

He talks about other cool things, like precognition and dreams of the departed, and he gives a lot of cool stories that make you think there's more to dreaming than we currently know. You can take from it what you want. It certainly goes to show, however, that the possibilities inside the dream realm are endless.

Edit: 2nd read through was just as good as the first! I picked up a lot of interesting new tricks and tactics that I was not ready for when I read it the first time. Now that I am more dedicated lucid dreamer, it is more relevant to me. Definitely a book to read more than once!

Some things I want to try out, inspired by the book:

1. Request the dream to give me a "time extension" when I feel the lucid dream is near its end.

2. Try singing in the dream about my dream activities, as this has been reported to help maintain awareness.

3. Practice visualizing becoming lucid in dreams I have just awoken from, right after journaling.

This was a great book!!

This is the book about LD which I consider being the best from all I have read until now (around ten).
In fact, after reading it I basically do not feel the need or urge to read any other because it somehow filled the gap, if I can describe it this way. It shows that the space for exploration is so vast.