all religions lead to the same place.

[nerve]

...what you are saying is that truth is relative and not absolute (at least that is what I gather) But yet at the same time you state that man can be "saved" and that it can happen through different religions, but yet that opens the door that anyone can create a "religion" and be "saved" Who is doing the saving? Who decides what counts as being saved or not? I believe all religions lead to the same place. I believe truth is absolute, there is only one ultimate truth. and I think you can get there through christianity, buddhism, or certain other religions, possibly all. notice I said you can get there through it. you have to shift through all the doctrines and dogmata that misguided people create. these are sets of beliefs thought to be ultimate truths, but there is only one truth (and therefore only one true dogma and only one true doctrine). the one and only ultimate truth is that the only thing anyone can possibly know is that they don't know everything. if someone were to ask me about something I didn't know, I'd say I didn't know, but I already knew that there was something I didn't know, which is all you can know at once. once I learn what the person asked me about, I'd still know there are things I don't know, which is all you can know at once. whatever facts I learned could be false. therefore, I don't even know that all of the things I've learned in life are true...all I know is that I don't know. only when a person realizes and truly understands this can they exist. (otherwise they only exist in the eyes of the person who is aware.) this is because to exist, you must be aware of yourself, and to be aware of yourself there must be something other than yourself. you must be aware of yourself and this other. this other is not aware of itself, and you must pass on the awareness to it, or else you only exist in your own mind. so to truly exist, you have to pass on awareness. there is not just one other, there are many others, and I think one day everyone will "get it". I'm mulling over reincarnation as a possibility. if a person lives their life and never becomes aware of their existence, I believe their energy goes into another life on earth, over and over, until they become aware of themselves. I think the "elightened" ones go to a place where there is no suffering, only the memory of it. (edit): and what is memory? we have memory so that we don't repeat past mistakes! when you make a mistake you don't repeat it because you remember it! you remember that when you tried it, it didn't work, and you know not to do it again! why would you do it if you know it doesn't work? that is how heaven can be perfect, because we can still exchange information, but without suffering. we won't suffer because there won't be pure selfishness in anyone or an inclination of selfishness in anyone, because everyone will be aware of the fact that pure selfishness is distructive! the mistakes will not be repeated! I believe all of this because I've witnessed it work in my own life. I came to the ultimate truth through christianity. I was told certain things but I questioned those things. I saw the good in christianity, I saw potential in it. I saw a light, I just had to find where it was exactly. I saw the good in it but it was surrounded by fear, confusion, suffering. I think I am "saved" in the christian sense, "elightened" in the buddhist sense, "sane" in the scientific sense, a god in the satanic sense, and I think all religions have their own way of saying it- but they are all the same thing. (those are the only four "religions" I've looked at, but I've seen this truth, or the potential to find this truth, in all of them). you can call this truth whatever you want. I consider it a power, the only power there is. I believe it should be feared. when you fear something, you believe it has power over you. if the only thing you fear is certainty, you will not suffer. if you fear uncertainty, you will. personally, I'm leaning towards calling this power Satan, for several reasons. one reason is (and I can't seem to find where I read it but I'll keep looking), more people have been killed in the name of God, Christ, Allah, etc. than in the name of Satan. also, Satan is a badass motherfucker. he represents indulgence, he is THE party monster. it is OKAY to indulge, as long as you don't hurt anyone (yes, with the exception of masochism, don't even say it), and you don't have to hurt anyone to be happy, if you understand and apply the ultimate truth. maybe that will shock some people, ok, I know it will. but think about this: it doesn't matter what I call myself, it is inevitably going to disgust SOMEONE. if I call myself a christian, scientists will cringe. if I call myself an atheist, christians will scowl. if I call myself a buddhist, whatever, you get the idea. and since I understand that, I will refer to this power according to what the person I'm talking to believes. that is the most effective way to communicate with them. after all, we're talking about the same thing, right? so, calling myself a satanist does not make me evil. the only thing I want in life is to be happy and make others happy. there's nothing evil about that. please, for your own good, understand that you can't possibly know everything. ask questions and think for yourself. do not have faith. faith is blind and will get you nowhere. question things, learn, keep an open mind. if you don't understand it all now, keep thinking, you will eventually get it. no one can argue that closing your mind is a good thing. everyone knows it's not. I just understand why it's not. ok, those are my thoughts, I've developed them over the past few weeks. it's a lot and I may have left out something important, so please ask questions. ask questions anyway because I don't know everything and I need people to question my beliefs or they couldn't progress and become clearer. I've been talking to several people these past few weeks about this subject, of why we exist, but a few in particular really challenged my beliefs and made me think, and eventually come to more sensible conclusions. I'm very grateful for that. my soul mate Alec is one, also several people here on dv, especially Universal Mind. thanks guys. let's continue to increase our understanding. :)

[jaasum]

Good, I like what you have to say. I sorta jumped at you because you said something worth discussing and it looks like I got the response I wanted. Sometimes I play devils advocate, some people don't like that method but I can usually get good responses from unemotional and open people haha. I would honestly say I agree with you completely in the idea that there is ultimate truth and people are finding it in different ways, but they all lead to one thing that is "true" I see all paths, wether someone is seeking enlightenment or not as a path to enlightenment. Wether it be hell or reincarnation they must continue in life (I actually say continuing in "death" ,because I see enlightenment, salvation ect as "life) Where I would disagree and challenge you is in the concept of the devil. Because I see the devil, evil the unwanted as a tool of contrast to help us better understand ultimate truth. I don't see it as ultimate truth within itself. We want the truth, life, end of suffering ect and the "devil" or evil is not part of that picture, in the sense that it is not the ultimate result. Did I understand you correctly or no?

[nerve]

yes, you did, and I understand the argument you presented as well. but without satan, there can be no good. it's the same as thing as without God, there can be no good. satan is not a person, he's not a deity or a being that is aware. he is an idea. both awareness and unawareness existed at the same time, and each depends on the other. calling that, as a whole, by "satan" or "god" does not matter. the word "satan" is just associated with the selfish side (evil) by more people than others. understand? I've just chosen to call the power satan because of the reasons I mentioned above. also, in the story of the fall, satan is the one who tempted humanity, which made it possible for them to find happiness. I don't think they could have appriciated what they had until they saw what it was like to be without it.

[jaasum]

I think satan as an entity is something used to show us the opposite side of things. For example, in the garden of eden store, the snake, though he is never called "the devil" or "satan" but it represents an "evil" or a "contrary to eden, or God" entity was allowed in the garden to temp eve. So God allowed the snake in for a reason. The snake acted on it's own but only under God's allowance. Same thing with the story of Job.

[nerve]

look at it this way. we all need 50% God and 50% Satan. we all need 50% selflessness and 50% selfishness. either extreme leads to total destruction. we must find the perfect balance. if one is 100% selfless, he forgets himself. he does everything with every ounce of his energy for others. he does not take care of himself, he dies. if one is 100% selfish, they never consider others, they take and take and take and push others away, and this leads to their destruction. if we are to survive, we must think of others without forgetting ourselves. (an interesting observation is that science teaches us to think of our own survival, at the expense of others. religion teaches us to think of the survival and happiness of others, at our own expense.) we must have 50% God and 50% Satan, in a sense. I've chosen to refer to this, as a whole, as Satan, for other reasons. it isn't Satan, it is simply the ultimate truth. it's just a personal thing. yes it will be misunderstood, but it will still be misunderstood if I call it God, because atheists, satanists, who knows who all will get offended. that's why I said I will change what I call it according to what others believe. that means around you, I will refer to it as God. it all means the same thing. everyone is happy.

[jaasum]

I can see where you are going, but 50% selflessness and 50% selfishness doesn't even make sense when you think about.

[nerve]

but it does! when I do anything for anyone, I do it for myself also, because it makes me happy. when I do anything for myself, I do it for others also, which makes them happy. all of my desires and aspirations are half for myself and half for others.

[jaasum]

See, my "enlightenment" when I was able to do things for others because I began to see them as myself. Sort of this deep empathetic understanding for humanity.

[nerve]

same for me. I started to think about it a long time ago, years ago. I just didn't understand why. I remember an assignment in a writing class, I was supposed to write a paper on "motivation". "what motivates people?" well, I thought about it long and hard, and came up with this: "people are motivated by the desire to avoid pain and experience pleasure." but I didn't know why. sure, people avoid pain, it sucks. and yeah, they want pleasure, who doesn't? it's awesome. but WHY? I thought and thought and couldn't understand it. I thought, I love to do things for people, like buy them cool things, because I think it would be great if someone did it for me. but I could not understand why! and it was almost depressing to me, I never finished the paper, because all I could do was think about it, and I didn't come to a conclusion at that time...I did that a lot though, I barely ever turned in a paper, because I'd over-analyze the subject. but I'm thankful for that today, oh, so thankful. barely getting through highschool is a small price to pay for infinite wisdom, don't you think? especially since I'm so young now. I came to the truth at a very young age, relatively.

[Keeper]

I don't exactly know how to put this across, but I think in parts you hit the nail on the head, and other parts you didn't. I can't put my finger on it, but I think you got one very important bit right, and one very important bit wrong ... I'll need to go over this again to be sure.

[Lonewolf]

I believe all religions lead to the same place. I believe truth is absolute, there is only one ultimate truth. and I think you can get there through christianity, buddhism, or certain other religions, possibly all. notice I said you can get there through it. you have to shift through all the doctrines and dogmata that misguided people create. these are sets of beliefs thought to be ultimate truths, but there is only one truth (and therefore only one true dogma and only one true doctrine). You are right that there is only one truth out there. However I find it hard to understand the whole shifting through all the (false) teachings out there to automatically make it to the place where the perfect truth lies. Now biblically speaking, this can't be true. Luke 13: 23-27: 23 Now a certain man said to him: "Lord, are those who are being saved few?" He said to them: 24 "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able, 25 when once the householder has got up and locked the door, and YOU start to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Sir, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to YOU, ‘I do not know where YOU are from.’ 26 Then YOU will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways.’ 27 But he will speak and say to YOU, ‘I do not know where YOU are from. Get away from me, all YOU workers of unrighteousness!’ Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. Matthew 7:13-14: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. Ephesians 4:4-6: One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all. Matthew 12:30: He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters. John 4:24:God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth." Proverbs 2:4: 4 if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it I don't think you can just expect the truth to come to you on a silver platter. You have to take the initiative and go searching it out for yourself. On the religion thing, if your talking about learning about them all to see which one fits the puzzle then fine. But if you believe simply staying in whatever convenient religion you want will turn out the same in the end as someone else who believes in something quite different then that does not seem to be a very likely outcome. But what I personally believe from my beliefs is that eventually when the days press on there will come a day(s) when people will finally see the truth with their own eyes by the one and only god and then will have to take a stand or not.

[jaasum]

Didn't you say you were a Jehova's Witness in the other thread? Care to explain that one? Because as far as I know you only think that Johava's Witnesses will be saved. Also, I think both of us are very well aware of what the Bible says. We don't need a bible lesson we are talking about a broader concept. I would see it more this way, every religion holds some faint aspect of truth. We could sit here and argue and debate about the scriptures you just posted because those aren't the truth, not the pure unfiltered truth. I don't see it as anyone just merily walking down some path and we all reach a different truth because truth is subjective. I see it more as we keep steadfast and eventually what is not true will fade away and eventually what is true will be all that is left. Doesn't God turn all things to His glory? According to the Bible? Also, doesn't God just create some people in advance for destruction simply to show mercy on those whom He wishes to show mercy? The Bible is full of contradictions and therefore we are not looking to use the Bible as some ultimate truth in this discussion. We are leaning more towards Universalism in this thread. Though we are of course disagreeing on some details.

[Lonewolf]

Didn't you say you were a Jehova's Witness in the other thread? Care to explain that one? Because as far as I know you only think that Johava's Witnesses will be saved. Also, I think both of us are very well aware of what the Bible says. We don't need a bible lesson we are talking about a broader concept. I would see it more this way, every religion holds some faint aspect of truth. We could sit here and argue and debate about the scriptures you just posted because those aren't the truth, not the pure unfiltered truth. I don't see it as anyone just merily walking down some path and we all reach a different truth because truth is subjective. I see it more as we keep steadfast and eventually what is not true will fade away and eventually what is true will be all that is left. Doesn't God turn all things to His glory? According to the Bible? Also, doesn't God just create some people in advance for destruction simply to show mercy on those whom He wishes to show mercy? The Bible is full of contradictions and therefore we are not looking to use the Bible as some ultimate truth in this discussion. We are leaning more towards Universalism in this thread. Though we are of course disagreeing on some details. Yes I am. And no we dont believe only Jehovah's witnesses will be saved. God knows everyone's hearts. He will ressurect all the other people who are long dead who never learned about him and as regards this time period, we dont judge anyone. and again what you said about 'what is not true will fade away and what is true will be all that left' is also mentioned in a scripture but I dont need to quote it for you. And no God does not create people just to doom them for destruction. Name any 'contradictions' in the bible and I can tell you about it. From my own learning of the bible everything harmonizes. If you understand the context and the symbolism and the different meanings you will see it all fits.

[nerve]

And no God does not create people just to doom them for destruction. Name any 'contradictions' in the bible and I can tell you about it. I think he did. what about Satan? depending on which versions of the bible you look at, Satan was supposedly an angel who refused to bow before God's new creation (man). but if he went along with it, no one would know they had anything good; without opposition, they'd all be mindless drones. since he rebelled, it gave people a choice; because they can see and experience suffering, they know what happiness is, and can truly appreciate it. even if you nix the whole fall story, he still created Satan, and the bible says he'll be cast in the fires of hell in the end. I of course, don't see Satan as an actual entity that will end up suffering forever. I see him as a representation, an idea. I know some people will choose suffering, but I don't believe they'll suffer for eternity, I believe eventually they'll all be given another chance. From my own learning of the bible everything harmonizes. If you understand the context and the symbolism and the different meanings you will see it all fits. I can agree with that, yeah.

[Lonewolf]

I think he did. what about Satan? depending on which versions of the bible you look at, Satan was supposedly an angel who refused to bow before God's new creation (man). but if he went along with it, no one would know they had anything good; without opposition, they'd all be mindless drones. since he rebelled, it gave people a choice; because they can see and experience suffering, they know what happiness is, and can truly appreciate it. even if you nix the whole fall story, he still created Satan, and the bible says he'll be cast in the fires of hell in the end. I of course, don't see Satan as an actual entity that will end up suffering forever. I see him as a representation, an idea. I know some people will choose suffering, but I don't believe they'll suffer for eternity, I believe eventually they'll all be given another chance. Yes God created Satan as a perfect angel. Satan opposed God but God did not destine for it to happen. At John 8:44 it says, "he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him" indicating he was once in the truth. But as with all of God's intelligent creatures, he was given free will. He began to crave the worship that belonged only to God and lead Adam and Eve to disobey. So this also answers your statement that humans would have been mindless drones. That is not true. Why do you think God set up the test? That was a test of obedience to see if they wanted to give God their exclusive devotion or not. If Satan had never come down I'm sure God would have still managed to test them sufficiency to make sure they would comply with his righteous standards before being able to live perfectly and eternally in happiness. James 1:14-15 explains "But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death." And no, Satan will not be suffering for eternity. He will be destroyed, nonexistent. The teaching of eternal suffering is unscriptural.

[Matt5678]

Yes God created Satan as a perfect angel. im no bible scholar, but there are some bible studies that suggest that Satan is more the fallen morals of human beings than an actual being. this is further supported by NDE accounts

[jaasum]

Yes I am. And no we dont believe only Jehovah's witnesses will be saved. God knows everyone's hearts. He will ressurect all the other people who are long dead who never learned about him and as regards this time period, we dont judge anyone. and again what you said about 'what is not true will fade away and what is true will be all that left' is also mentioned in a scripture but I dont need to quote it for you. And no God does not create people just to doom them for destruction. Name any 'contradictions' in the bible and I can tell you about it. From my own learning of the bible everything harmonizes. If you understand the context and the symbolism and the different meanings you will see it all fits. And I think what you mean is YOUR understanding of scripture is harmonious. Romans 9 God’s Selection of Israel 1 With Christ as my witness, I speak with utter truthfulness. My conscience and the Holy Spirit confirm it. 2 My heart is filled with bitter sorrow and unending grief 3 for my people, my Jewish brothers and sisters. I would be willing to be forever cursed—cut off from Christ!—if that would save them. 4 They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God’s adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises. 5 Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 6 Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people! 7 Being descendants of Abraham doesn’t make them truly Abraham’s children. For the Scriptures say, “Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted,” though Abraham had other children, too. 8 This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children. 9 For God had promised, “I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 10 This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. 11 But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; 12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”[g] 13 In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” 14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! 15 For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. 17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. 19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?” 20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. 25 Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea, “Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before.” 26 And, “Then, at the place where they were told, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’” 27 And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out, “Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth quickly and with finality.” 29 And Isaiah said the same thing in another place: “If the Lord of Heaven’s Armies had not spared a few of our children, we would have been wiped out like Sodom, destroyed like Gomorrah.” Israel’s Unbelief 30 What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place. 31 But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. 32 Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. 33 God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, “I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”

[nerve]

Yes God created Satan as a perfect angel. Satan opposed God but God did not destine for it to happen. At John 8:44 it says, "he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him" indicating he was once in the truth. But as with all of God's intelligent creatures, he was given free will. He began to crave the worship that belonged only to God and lead Adam and Eve to disobey. So this also answers your statement that humans would have been mindless drones. That is not true. Why do you think God set up the test? That was a test of obedience to see if they wanted to give God their exclusive devotion or not. If Satan had never come down I'm sure God would have still managed to test them sufficiency to make sure they would comply with his righteous standards before being able to live perfectly and eternally in happiness. I don't think it would have been perfect eternal happiness as much as it would have been bland, unexceptional mediocracy. without extreme evil you can't know what real happiness is. it would be like nothing. any simple "test" that God would give us would be insignificant and insufficient. it would be a shrug of the shoulders. Lucifer saw that and THAT'S why he rebelled. he knew an extreme opposing force would mean true good would be possible. if you ask me, Lucifer did humanity a huge favour. it isn't like he tortured Adam and Eve, he just made it possible for them to experience REAL happiness, REAL pleasure.

[jaasum]

I view it as Lucifer being subjected and contained by God. I see this from the creation story and to the story of Job. Satan as an entity I believe exists, but he only operates under the will and direction of God. God uses him as a necessary evil to help us realize and understand God.

[wer]

I believe all religions lead to the same place. I believe truth is absolute, there is only one ultimate truth. and I think you can get there through christianity, buddhism, or certain other religions, possibly all. notice I said you can get there through it. you have to shift through all the doctrines and dogmata that misguided people create. these are sets of beliefs thought to be ultimate truths, but there is only one truth (and therefore only one true dogma and only one true doctrine). the one and only ultimate truth is that the only thing anyone can possibly know is that they don't know everything. if someone were to ask me about something I didn't know, I'd say I didn't know, but I already knew that there was something I didn't know, which is all you can know at once. once I learn what the person asked me about, I'd still know there are things I don't know, which is all you can know at once. whatever facts I learned could be false. therefore, I don't even know that all of the things I've learned in life are true...all I know is that I don't know. only when a person realizes and truly understands this can they exist. (otherwise they only exist in the eyes of the person who is aware.) this is because to exist, you must be aware of yourself, and to be aware of yourself there must be something other than yourself. you must be aware of yourself and this other. this other is not aware of itself, and you must pass on the awareness to it, or else you only exist in your own mind. so to truly exist, you have to pass on awareness. there is not just one other, there are many others, and I think one day everyone will "get it". I'm mulling over reincarnation as a possibility. if a person lives their life and never becomes aware of their existence, I believe their energy goes into another life on earth, over and over, until they become aware of themselves. I think the "elightened" ones go to a place where there is no suffering, only the memory of it. (edit): and what is memory? we have memory so that we don't repeat past mistakes! when you make a mistake you don't repeat it because you remember it! you remember that when you tried it, it didn't work, and you know not to do it again! why would you do it if you know it doesn't work? that is how heaven can be perfect, because we can still exchange information, but without suffering. we won't suffer because there won't be pure selfishness in anyone or an inclination of selfishness in anyone, because everyone will be aware of the fact that pure selfishness is distructive! the mistakes will not be repeated! I believe all of this because I've witnessed it work in my own life. I came to the ultimate truth through christianity. I was told certain things but I questioned those things. I saw the good in christianity, I saw potential in it. I saw a light, I just had to find where it was exactly. I saw the good in it but it was surrounded by fear, confusion, suffering. I think I am "saved" in the christian sense, "elightened" in the buddhist sense, "sane" in the scientific sense, a god in the satanic sense, and I think all religions have their own way of saying it- but they are all the same thing. (those are the only four "religions" I've looked at, but I've seen this truth, or the potential to find this truth, in all of them). you can call this truth whatever you want. I consider it a power, the only power there is. I believe it should be feared. when you fear something, you believe it has power over you. if the only thing you fear is certainty, you will not suffer. if you fear uncertainty, you will. personally, I'm leaning towards calling this power Satan, for several reasons. one reason is (and I can't seem to find where I read it but I'll keep looking), more people have been killed in the name of God, Christ, Allah, etc. than in the name of Satan. also, Satan is a badass motherfucker. he represents indulgence, he is THE party monster. it is OKAY to indulge, as long as you don't hurt anyone (yes, with the exception of masochism, don't even say it), and you don't have to hurt anyone to be happy, if you understand and apply the ultimate truth. maybe that will shock some people, ok, I know it will. but think about this: it doesn't matter what I call myself, it is inevitably going to disgust SOMEONE. if I call myself a christian, scientists will cringe. if I call myself an atheist, christians will scowl. if I call myself a buddhist, whatever, you get the idea. and since I understand that, I will refer to this power according to what the person I'm talking to believes. that is the most effective way to communicate with them. after all, we're talking about the same thing, right? so, calling myself a satanist does not make me evil. the only thing I want in life is to be happy and make others happy. there's nothing evil about that. please, for your own good, understand that you can't possibly know everything. ask questions and think for yourself. do not have faith. faith is blind and will get you nowhere. question things, learn, keep an open mind. if you don't understand it all now, keep thinking, you will eventually get it. no one can argue that closing your mind is a good thing. everyone knows it's not. I just understand why it's not. ok, those are my thoughts, I've developed them over the past few weeks. it's a lot and I may have left out something important, so please ask questions. ask questions anyway because I don't know everything and I need people to question my beliefs or they couldn't progress and become clearer. I've been talking to several people these past few weeks about this subject, of why we exist, but a few in particular really challenged my beliefs and made me think, and eventually come to more sensible conclusions. I'm very grateful for that. my soul mate Alec is one, also several people here on dv, especially Universal Mind. thanks guys. let's continue to increase our understanding. You made some very good points .

[juroara]

I believe all religions lead to the same place - no where if you wanna get anywhere you gotta pick up the torch of spirituality. no silly ceremony, religious organization, no leader, no rules or regulations, no mass can get you where you are meant to go - only the spiritual path

[Harrycombs]

I really like your post paperdoll! I think the same thing as well, but you said it better than I ever could of. I always thought that religions were just morals and lessons, that people think are true. But I agree with you that Satan and God are ideas, not entities.

[Lonewolf]

I don't think it would have been perfect eternal happiness as much as it would have been bland, unexceptional mediocracy. without extreme evil you can't know what real happiness is. it would be like nothing. any simple "test" that God would give us would be insignificant and insufficient. it would be a shrug of the shoulders. Lucifer saw that and THAT'S why he rebelled. he knew an extreme opposing force would mean true good would be possible. if you ask me, Lucifer did humanity a huge favour. it isn't like he tortured Adam and Eve, he just made it possible for them to experience REAL happiness, REAL pleasure. My computer has been down thats why I havent been on a while, i guess ill reply to this. If Adam and Eve were created perfect they would have no need to experience evil in order to feel the depth of happiness because they are already perfect. God equipped them with everything in order to experience such feeling. Satan rebelled because he wanted their worship directed to him.There is no way of knowing how God would have further shown his awe-inspiring power to his creations and further deepened their appreciation and awe. When babies are born into the world they are filled with wonder. They don't need to suffer to feel that way, they are constantly entranced by the world around them. For Adam and Eve thats how it would be like always--but without abrupt and harsh interruptions and frustration and pain, which cause people to think life is not worth living. It was not a question of happiness verses misery that God withheld, but good and evil. There was perfection in the absolute sense so everything was just right and there was no question as to good verses evil. IF they disobeyed God they would realize such a conflict. And they had the ability to do so because of their free will. I'm sure even if wasn't for Satan interfering God would have found a way to test them out fully to make sure they showed their submission to their Life-giver.

[nerve]

If Adam and Eve were created perfect they would have no need to experience evil in order to feel the depth of happiness because they are already perfect. God equipped them with everything in order to experience such feeling. ok, I totally understand that now. Satan rebelled because he wanted their worship directed to him. you know what would be foolish? rebelling against what created you, knowing full well that it created you (and so, could easily destroy you). Lucifer had to have known that God created him, or at least that he had more power. he also had to have been happy, right? God must have created the angels with the ability to experience perfect pleasure and happiness, without having to suffer at all. they would, truly, know what happiness and pleasure were without ever having to experience any pain or discontent. any other way, and God would be cruel; because, being omnipotent, he could create beings who could be happy without the slightest bit of discomfort or discontent being necessary at all. so why give them any at all? I don't believe a God who is pure love would. so, Lucifer, being an archangel (high position means high responsability, more work), is happily working for God, when he starts to feel...pride. he starts to crave worship. he wants more attention, more power. he wants his throne to be above God's. so, Lucifer is doing all of this work for God, happily, when he sees others worshiping God, and he wants this...but why? if he is happy, he would not want anything more. he had a high position, and perfect happiness, and he knew this was a good thing (because God, being omnipotent, has the ability to create a being that would know what happiness was without having to suffer), and he knew that God had more power than him. so he must have known that rebelling against God would have been a bad idea, since God would like...get angry, and take away his happiness (that he knew was good, and wouldn't want to give up for anything). if Lucifer truly was happy, why would he rebel? why would he want worship? he must have been unhappy because of his pride, his pride was causing him pain. and he must have known what pride was, all of the angels must have known what it was, because they all had a chance to choose it, a portion of them did and the rest didn't. but if all of the angels had the ability to develop pride, and knew it, they would not choose it because they'd have perfect happiness (and know they did) so they would never choose pride because they already had perfect happiness and they'd know pride would just cause them suffering. or the ability to develop pride was there, but they did not know about it, and it took over some of them...but that is not really free will, is it? that would mean God did not create them all with perfect happiness, he created pride and gave all of the angels the ability to develop it without knowing. (because if they truly knew what they had, they would know that rebelling would be utter foolishness and wouldn't dare). or did God not create pride? that would mean there are things that God did not create...that would mean God is not omnipotent, he is not the ultimate, only creator. that would mean that he did not create satan, and satan was there from the beginning, which would make them equals. but, really, what would Lucifer rebel? maybe he did not know that God created him and had more power, which would make God cruel, because he created him without that knowledge and with the ability to develop pride and a desire to try to overcome God, which would then make God angry, and he would punish them. either God created all of the angels with perfect happiness but also the ability to develop pride without knowing it, which is cruel, and not free will; or he did not create pride, which means he is not really omnipotent. either God is cruel, or he is not all-powerful. which is it? the only reason Lucifer, or any angel, would choose to rebel against God, would be if they did not know they had happiness (which means they weren't happy) or they did not know God had more power, but even then, they would have to be unhappy to want to try and overthrow God in the first place. I believe if they truly had free will, none of them would choose to rebel against God, because they would all know better. if they didn't know better, then they did not really have free will, did they? either God created it all this way, and is cruel, OR there are things outside of his control. When babies are born into the world they are filled with wonder. They don't need to suffer to feel that way, they are constantly entranced by the world around them. For Adam and Eve thats how it would be like always--but without abrupt and harsh interruptions and frustration and pain, which cause people to think life is not worth living. babies are like that because they don't know anything. when babies experience pleasure, they don't really know what it is, yet. they learn what it is. they look at everything in wonder because they don't know what any of it is, not because they think it's beautiful. actually that's really all they can do, is look around at everything. and they don't know what beauty is, they don't know anything. don't you have to be aware of something to like...be aware of it? It was not a question of happiness verses misery that God withheld, but good and evil. There was perfection in the absolute sense so everything was just right and there was no question as to good verses evil. IF they disobeyed God they would realize such a conflict. And they had the ability to do so because of their free will. if they had the ability to do so, without knowing what that ability meant, that is not free will. if the angels really had a choice, they'd know better than to disobey God, because they'd know it was a bad choice, and would not choose it. if they did not know it was a bad choice, then they had no idea what they were doing, and therefore did not have free will. I'm sure even if wasn't for Satan interfering God would have found a way to test them out fully to make sure they showed their submission to their Life-giver. you're saying something happened against God's will. if Satan's interfering was God's will, he is cruel. otherwise, he is not all-powerful. you must not believe that God is all-powerful.

[M-Cat]

Yes all religions lead to the same place: death.