A proof for the non-existence of God

[Carôusoul]

Actually this isn't a real proper argument, but I find it funny. This is more of a parody of the many "logical" arguments for God's existence, rather than an argument in itself. Not a solid or upstanding argument, but rather fun nonetheless. 1. The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable. 2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator. 3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement. 4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence. 5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of an existent creator we can conceive a greater being — namely, one who created everything while not existing. 6. Therefore, God does not exist. The third premise might seem odd; the intuition is that we are generally more impressed by, for example, a four-year-old child composing a marvelous symphony than the same composition of a professional. In fact, Graham Oppy, an expert on the ontological argument, who isn't particularly impressed with this parody, does not object to (3). Writing in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy he is mainly concerned with the first premise, asking "what reason is there to believe that the creation of the world is 'the most marvellous achievement imaginable.' Gasking was apparently thinking of the "world" or "universe" as the same as "everything." If one is willing to accept the first premise, one has no choice but to accept the fourth premise. Thus, the philosophical point of this parody is to highlight problems when existence is taken as property: "whereas Anselm illicitly supposed that existence is a perfection, [Fred] is illicitly invoking the inverse principle that non-existence is a perfection."

[wasup]

I don't get it. Sure, it would be impressive if god didn't exist and still created the universe, but who says it would have to be that "impressive." Secondly, my rebuttal: God is so omnipotent that he can not exist but still create the universe (and exist at the same time, though still not existing).

[Carôusoul]

Secondly, my rebuttal: God is so omnipotent that he can not exist but still create the universe (and exist at the same time, though still not existing). Darn that rapscallion deity. Good sir; you have won, yet only due to the slippery nature of the deity in question. Bravo.

[juroara]

if you think God is out to impress?

[Sisyphus50]

if you think God is out to impress? You think he's not? He could have just waved his hand and forgiven all sin on Earth, but instead chose to embody himself (as a Son) in flesh and get nailed to a cross to do it (which he knew was going to happen because he's omniscient). If god chose to suffer for our sins in such a hideous, torturous way, one can only assume he decided to do it that specific way. He's God, he can do whatever he likes. But he chose to be brutally tortured and murdered. What a masochist. What a drama queen. "I told you I was hardcore" Blood and body sacrifice has its roots in pagan culture anyway. Why would your god want to associate with that?

[Sornaensis]

Clearly God is a sadistic, lazy bastard. If he cared so much why not just directly tell us? Or just make us believe? Huh? Clearly God does not care then.

[Universal Mind]

Clearly God is a sadistic, lazy bastard. If he cared so much why not just directly tell us? Or just make us believe? Huh? Clearly God does not care then. His infinite power has limits.

[♥Mark]

God wants you to chose! He wants you to be able to chose good or bad. But he doesn't want you to choose bad and will punish you if you do! But god wants you to choose bad instead of making you a robot. Otherwise he wouldn't allow bad or the ability to choose to do bad. God also wants to limit your ability to make an informed choice. You have to believe it's true even though he's trying to trick you into thinking it's not. But that's not really true, he's just testing your faith. You have to believe him not only in spite of all other reasons but actually because of it! It'll make sense in the end unless we're wrong in which case you'll never know anyway! Which means it can't possibly be wrong (that we'll know of! teehee!)

[Sisyphus50]

That looks like Pascal's Wager in a blender.

[Bearsy]

God wants you to chose! He wants you to be able to chose good or bad. But he doesn't want you to choose bad and will punish you if you do! But god wants you to choose bad instead of making you a robot. Otherwise he wouldn't allow bad or the ability to choose to do bad. God also wants to limit your ability to make an informed choice. You have to believe it's true even though he's trying to trick you into thinking it's not. But that's not really true, he's just testing your faith. You have to believe him not only in spite of all other reasons but actually because of it! It'll make sense in the end unless we're wrong in which case you'll never know anyway! Which means it can't possibly be wrong (that we'll know of! teehee!) Fucking Win

[Sornaensis]

Yup.

[really]

If you cannot prove God you do not know what you are trying to prove. When you know God, you do not need all proof, because that is exactly what it is. God wants you to chose! He wants you to be able to chose good or bad. But he doesn't want you to choose bad and will punish you if you do! But god wants you to choose bad instead of making you a robot. Otherwise he wouldn't allow bad or the ability to choose to do bad. God also wants to limit your ability to make an informed choice. You have to believe it's true even though he's trying to trick you into thinking it's not. But that's not really true, he's just testing your faith. You have to believe him not only in spite of all other reasons but actually because of it! It'll make sense in the end unless we're wrong in which case you'll never know anyway! Which means it can't possibly be wrong (that we'll know of! teehee!) Flaw #1(/11)

[Sornaensis]

God came from man. An idea to satisfy the unknown. Your vague wording suggests that you are just firthere hiding the lack of reason for such an entity to exist.

[Carôusoul]

If you cannot prove God you do not know what you are trying to prove. When you know God, you do not need all proof, because that is exactly what it is. Flaw #1(/11) Clarify terms. Define your God. Lets use logic? Or keep to your highly vague impenetrable poetic prose with no application on the real world. I don't think you probably even fully know what you mean. Either way.

[♥Mark]

Flaw #1(/11) A lot of people who believe in god believe this to be true.

[really]

God came from man. Man came from God. An idea to satisfy the unknown. A memory to cleanse the suffering. Your vague wording suggests that you are just firthere hiding the lack of reason for such an entity to exist. Firstly, consider "vague" a matter of one's perspective. Secondly, consider that "lack of reason" would keep me from posting. Clarify terms. Define your God. Lets use logic? Or keep to your highly vague impenetrable poetic prose with no application on the real world. I don't think you probably even fully know what you mean. Either way. My God is yours, ultimately. Let's not use logic, this is not a logical matter. God is the Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Spirit which animates and pervades everything in the entire Universe. He is not a person, nor something with logical judgements or personal favorites. My God is yours; He is Impersonal. We are Gods family, therefore, and God is in all of you people and things. God transcends the ego - and the fear of being wrong, or feeling better than others, He is love, infinite love and being. He is Home, the One which lasts forever. Your truest Self. The Grand Soul of those who accept. Why would you scoff at these teachings which do not perish? Where is your compassion? Where are your eyes? A lot of people who believe in god believe this to be true. Your terrible assumptions appear to have mislead you.

[RedfishBluefish]

Man came from God. Man came from me. My God is yours, ultimately. Let's not use logic, this is not a logical matter. I am your god, ultimately. Let's not use logic, this is not a logical matter. God is the Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Spirit which animates and pervades everything in the entire Universe. He is not a person, nor something with logical judgements or personal favorites. My God is yours; He is Impersonal. We are Gods family, therefore, and God is in all of you people and things. God transcends the ego - and the fear of being wrong, or feeling better than others, He is love, infinite love and being. He is Home, the One which lasts forever. Your truest Self. The Grand Soul of those who accept. I am the Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Spirit which animates and pervades everything in the entire Universe. I am not a person, nor something with logical judgements or personal favorites. I am is your God; I am Impersonal. You are My family, therefore, and I am in all of you people and things. I transcend the ego - and the fear of being wrong, or feeling better than others, I am love, infinite love and being. I am Home, the One which lasts forever. Your truest Self. The Grand Soul of those who accept. Why would you scoff at these teachings which do not perish? Where is your compassion? Where are your eyes? Your terrible assumptions appear to have mislead you. --------------------------------------------- Next time use logic.

[really]

Next time use logic. Why? Look at what happens! I don't completely understand your post.

[RedfishBluefish]

Tell me, what tool have you got that consistantly produces more accurate results than logic?

[♥Mark]

Your terrible assumptions appear to have mislead you. o ok thx u 4 takin teh tiem 2 halp me undarstend

[LucidFlanders]

Clearly God is a sadistic, lazy bastard. If he cared so much why not just directly tell us? Or just make us believe? Huh? Clearly God does not care then. Perhaps god has told us already? but we are able to choose what we want to believe, or what not to believe. You expect a voice to say "i am real, this is god"? people do say that, we call them crazy for saying god told him to do so and so, and they go to the hospital to get help. People have hallucinations in forms of NDE, or OBE, or whatever and say they felt and know god and all that stuff, we say it was brain related and it was not real. How are we going to know if gods real if we use the "brain" theory? i seriously doubt god cares if we believe or don't believe. If he exists that is.

[really]

RedfishBluefish can you explain your previous post? Tell me, what tool have you got that consistantly produces more accurate results than logic? Logic isn't accurate here because this isn't a logical matter. What is used instead isn't labeled a "tool", because it is spiritual. o ok thx u 4 takin teh tiem 2 halp me undarstend Do you have any questions? Perhaps god has told us already? but we are able to choose what we want to believe, or what not to believe. You expect a voice to say "i am real, this is god"? people do say that, we call them crazy for saying god told him to do so and so, and they go to the hospital to get help. People have hallucinations in forms of NDE, or OBE, or whatever and say they felt and know god and all that stuff, we say it was brain related and it was not real. How are we going to know if gods real if we use the "brain" theory? i seriously doubt god cares if we believe or don't believe. If he exists that is. It still seems that you think God is separate from the Individual and behaves as a person.

[Bonsay]

If god is not a part of this universe, then he cannot be proven by means of science which we use to explain reality. If the universe is existance therefore he does not exist. If you find Zeus hiding in the clouds then yay, otherwise it is pointless. Invisible pink unicorn and the flying spaghetti monster. Another universe could be outside. You could find a god there. But, untill we manage to rip the fabric of space-time and look "outside" we can't prove anything.

[Scatterbrain]

Perhaps god has told us already? but we are able to choose what we want to believe, or what not to believe. As suggested in an older thread, why not believe you're a billionaire movie star then?

[ClouD]

My God is yours, ultimately. Let's not use logic, this is not a logical matter. God is the Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Spirit which animates and pervades everything in the entire Universe. He is not a person, nor something with logical judgements or personal favorites. My God is yours; He is Impersonal. We are Gods family, therefore, and God is in all of you people and things. God transcends the ego - and the fear of being wrong, or feeling better than others, He is love, infinite love and being. He is Home, the One which lasts forever. Your truest Self. The Grand Soul of those who accept. God does not exist in this universe - mind.