Thread: Raziiel's Workbook (The Frenchy's Workbook)

Originally Posted by fogelbise

^Great point @Pornocrates! I know FryingMan and I feel strongly about this!

(1)No worries. Keep experimenting with the amount of time to stay up that works for you. Some people require less time (Sensei's micro-WBTB, at one point I think he was solving math in his head to wake up the brain, many times not even getting out of bed) and other people require more time (I don't mind staying up longer, reading about lucid dreaming or looking at inspiring images, if I went to bed on time).
(2)Most likely that is what it was. That is good progress!
(3)Great job accessing the recall of your dreams there, from 0 to 6 segments!! Solidify the technique you used in your mind so you can use it again and again.
(4)Very good results! I bet you will!! Look forward to having your first LD, just try not to worry or stress about getting your first LD.

Nice job!!

I think I have trouble finding the right amount of time because I'm doing WBTB during the week end and also during the week while I'm tired but I think I have it for my next attempt

Yeah I'm gonna stick with what I'm doing, mindfullness I think

Thanks about your help and your support that's motivating me and I'm not stressing at all just enjoying

Hey, sorry to post again but that's my Workbook right ^^

I'm with my girlfriend since friday night and I was wondering if you guys can actually do techniques while sleeping with someone else, I tried 3 nights in a row with her but I can't really concentrate to do SSILD for example my mind is wandering a lot more.

Let me know if you have some advice or something I dont know

There are some challenges when someone else is in bed with you, but it is definitely achievable. If you two like to "spoon" (or any sleeping with contact or cuddling), then you can always keep a little more space on the bed after WBTB. One thing to watch out for, which I find is common after years of sleeping next to my wife, are FA's in which it seems like she is interacting with me in some way (seems like she is moving too much, squeezing me in an unusual way, or waking me up for sex and then later actually waking and realizing any of the above scenarios were an FA. They were all a dream.) With FA's being very common with SSILD and also quite common with WBTB and DEILD's, that makes it all the more important to keep this in mind so that you can catch some of these FA's that may involve your girlfriend and become lucid.

Good luck

Originally Posted by fogelbise

There are some challenges when someone else is in bed with you, but it is definitely achievable. If you two like to "spoon" (or any sleeping with contact or cuddling), then you can always keep a little more space on the bed after WBTB. One thing to watch out for, which I find is common after years of sleeping next to my wife, are FA's in which it seems like she is interacting with me in some way (seems like she is moving too much, squeezing me in an unusual way, or waking me up for sex and then later actually waking and realizing any of the above scenarios were an FA. They were all a dream.) With FA's being very common with SSILD and also quite common with WBTB and DEILD's, that makes it all the more important to keep this in mind so that you can catch some of these FA's that may involve your girlfriend and become lucid.

Good luck

Thanks for your advice I'll definitely try that

You're welcome. By the way, that possible 2 second spark of lucidity sounds promising!

Originally Posted by fogelbise

You're welcome. By the way, that possible 2 second spark of lucidity sounds promising!

Yeah but I'm not really sure it was a weird feeling I can't really explain it ^^

And I tried a WBTB SSILD this morning but I can't fall asleep, I stayed lay in bed for about 1 hour, several times I had a lot of HHs my breathe went like automatic mode and my body was so heavy in the bed but I couldn't fall asleep

I went to bed at 00h30 and I set my alarm at 7h30 maybe it was too much time sleeping I don't know I'll try to sleep earlier tonight and to set my alarm earlier too

Originally Posted by Pornocrates

That is actually a really important point, I remember someone on Reddit (Username: DreamHacker I think) saying that you get hours of non lucid dreams for free. As soon as you try to induce LDs you focus a lot more on them and therefore improve you DR and the vividness of your dreams, but many see non lucid dreams as failures and that's a big issue. The perfect attitude towards LDing would be to love each one of your dreams without stressing about LDing because it will come eventually and that way you don't burn out or lose motivation!
Once you start having crazy vivid dreams it's funny anyway!

Gee, that reddit Dream_Hacker guy says a lot of pretty brilliant stuff. I noticed he updated his reddit flair to include "Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall" as well, my kind of guy .

p.s. Raziiel I don't think I gave you a formal welcome, so: Welcome to the DILD class! It looks like you're doing great. I'm a huge proponent of building a solid and growing foundation of the fundamentals: mindfulness is a great practice, keep at it. One suggestion for mindfulness for LDing is to work on mixing in some critical reflection: include the thought that you have a goal to get lucid in dreams, so while you're keeping that internal observer active for mindfulness, add a bit of "is this dream-like?" to your observations, and remember your intent to get lucid in your dreams.

Building strong recall is very important in many ways, including general enjoyment of the night! I look forward to every night because I know it will be filled with bizarre, funny, weird, exciting, beautiful dream experiences. From there it's just a matter of developing the intention and focus to foster more and more lucidity.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Gee, that reddit Dream_Hacker guy says a lot of pretty brilliant stuff. I noticed he updated his reddit flair to include "Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall" as well, my kind of guy .

p.s. Raziiel I don't think I gave you a formal welcome, so: Welcome to the DILD class! It looks like you're doing great. I'm a huge proponent of building a solid and growing foundation of the fundamentals: mindfulness is a great practice, keep at it. One suggestion for mindfulness for LDing is to work on mixing in some critical reflection: include the thought that you have a goal to get lucid in dreams, so while you're keeping that internal observer active for mindfulness, add a bit of "is this dream-like?" to your observations, and remember your intent to get lucid in your dreams.

Building strong recall is very important in many ways, including general enjoyment of the night! I look forward to every night because I know it will be filled with bizarre, funny, weird, exciting, beautiful dream experiences. From there it's just a matter of developing the intention and focus to foster more and more lucidity.

Thank you

Yeah I know recall is a really important part to attain lucidity that's why I'm working on it and I feel like my recall is getting better everyday

But I still don't know if I'm doing something wrong when I'm trying SSILD or if it's just a sleep issue.
Because I've been in the state where you have HHs and vibrations through your body several times and I feel like it leads me nowhere I'm just laying in bed struggling to fall asleep.
Should I think about something when I get to this state or visualize something I don't know ?
Or maybe it's just that I've slept too much and I can't fall asleep but even when I'm doing it at 4h00 it's difficult to fall asleep ^^

I'm very familiar with this "struggling to fall asleep" phenomenon. One thing I have learned over many, many long sleepless periods in the middle of the night over the last 3 years is that you can't struggle to sleep, you can only relax/fall to sleep. You have to let go of physical and mental tension, and and try to keep only the lightest touches of awareness intact. It is a challenging balance, one that I have not really come near mastering. I can fall asleep fairly quickly if I dedicate myself to letting go and relaxing, but if I try to maintain intention, it keeps me awake. So what I do is set intention, then let it go, and believe that the lucidity will happen. Sometimes I get this feeling, "if I fall asleep now, I WILL be lucid," and more often than not, it comes true!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I'm very familiar with this "struggling to fall asleep" phenomenon. One thing I have learned over many, many long sleepless periods in the middle of the night over the last 3 years is that you can't struggle to sleep, you can only relax/fall to sleep. You have to let go of physical and mental tension, and and try to keep only the lightest touches of awareness intact. It is a challenging balance, one that I have not really come near mastering. I can fall asleep fairly quickly if I dedicate myself to letting go and relaxing, but if I try to maintain intention, it keeps me awake. So what I do is set intention, then let it go, and believe that the lucidity will happen. Sometimes I get this feeling, "if I fall asleep now, I WILL be lucid," and more often than not, it comes true!

I understand what you're saying and I tried that this morning ^^
I was having these vibrations, HHs and since I couldn't fall asleep I just turned around and tried to let it go but it didn't work.
I feel like if I let it go too fast I'm not really setting my intention enough to get a LD, I don't know if you get what I mean.

I know what you mean. You have to decide for yourself what is more important: for me, it's falling asleep again and dreaming more.

This gets easier in time. Right now it's all new and you're super excited, and that's great. In time you'll settle more in to a routine and the edge of that sharp intention can relax somewhat, helping you get back to sleep, but maintaining enough to still get lucid.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I know what you mean. You have to decide for yourself what is more important: for me, it's falling asleep again and dreaming more.

This gets easier in time. Right now it's all new and you're super excited, and that's great. In time you'll settle more in to a routine and the edge of that sharp intention can relax somewhat, helping you get back to sleep, but maintaining enough to still get lucid.

I hadn't seen it this way but it sounds right, I'll try to fall asleep if I feel like setting my intention too much is going to keep me awake thanks for this advice

And I'm reading a lot about meditation these days I think I'm going to try Mindfulness meditation since I read that it helps a lot for LDs and in life in general let me know if you have experience about that

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Gee, that reddit Dream_Hacker guy says a lot of pretty brilliant stuff. I noticed he updated his reddit flair to include "Pay Attention, Reflect, Recall" as well, my kind of guy .

I regularly check his profile page on reddit just to read what he recently wrote hehe. I'd advise anyone to do the same since he has such an interesting point of view!

Originally Posted by Pornocrates

I regularly check his profile page on reddit just to read what he recently wrote hehe. I'd advise anyone to do the same since he has such an interesting point of view!

Why, thank you! Uh, I mean, I'm sure Dream_Hacker thanks you

Originally Posted by Raziiel

I hadn't seen it this way but it sounds right, I'll try to fall asleep if I feel like setting my intention too much is going to keep me awake thanks for this advice

Yes, yet another balancing act we LDers must manage: managing wakefulness vs. drowsiness. In this discipline, sleep is king: no sleep, no dreams, after all. But added moments of at least slightly increased wakefulness appear almost mandatory for lucidity. I know it makes a big difference for me!

And I'm reading a lot about meditation these days I think I'm going to try Mindfulness meditation since I read that it helps a lot for LDs and in life in general let me know if you have experience about that

Mindfulness meditation is great! I've not yet managed to keep a regular formal "sitting" meditation practice, but I try to maintain attention/self-awareness throughout the day. The point of the seated meditation is that you set aside everything else and give it your full attention and focus. The more you do it, the more disciplined your mind becomes, which is very important in the case of LDing.

Probably the most important thing about mindfulness meditation is learning to *live* your life. To participate. Don't let it slip by on autopilot.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Yes, yet another balancing act we LDers must manage: managing wakefulness vs. drowsiness. In this discipline, sleep is king: no sleep, no dreams, after all. But added moments of at least slightly increased wakefulness appear almost mandatory for lucidity. I know it makes a big difference for me!


Mindfulness meditation is great! I've not yet managed to keep a regular formal "sitting" meditation practice, but I try to maintain attention/self-awareness throughout the day. The point of the seated meditation is that you set aside everything else and give it your full attention and focus. The more you do it, the more disciplined your mind becomes, which is very important in the case of LDing.

Probably the most important thing about mindfulness meditation is learning to *live* your life. To participate. Don't let it slip by on autopilot.

Yeah that's why I understand from it and when I think about my life I feel like the autopilot mode is on way too often ! ^^

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Why, thank you! Uh, I mean, I'm sure Dream_Hacker thanks you

Noooo, your secret identity!

Originally Posted by Raziiel

Yeah that's why I understand from it and when I think about my life I feel like the autopilot mode is on way too often ! ^^

If you want to practice it diligently Zazen is a good practice, you can find lots of dojos pretty much in any big city in France (thanks to Master Deshimaru).
It literally means "Sitting Meditation": 座禅 (in japanese). Although it requires a lot of discipline and practice on the stance it sure is a great way to acquire good mental tools: focus, awareness, etc... And the fact that you practice it with others kinda forces you to do it right.

Originally Posted by Pornocrates

If you want to practice it diligently Zazen is a good practice, you can find lots of dojos pretty much in any big city in France (thanks to Master Deshimaru).
It literally means "Sitting Meditation": 座禅 (in japanese). Although it requires a lot of discipline and practice on the stance it sure is a great way to acquire good mental tools: focus, awareness, etc... And the fact that you practice it with others kinda forces you to do it right.

I think I'm just gonna do it alone at home everyday and see what I can learn from it but thank you for these informations

^^Lot's of good discussion and advice!

Originally Posted by Raziiel

And I tried a WBTB SSILD this morning but I can't fall asleep, I stayed lay in bed for about 1 hour, several times I had a lot of HHs my breathe went like automatic mode and my body was so heavy in the bed but I couldn't fall asleep

I went to bed at 00h30 and I set my alarm at 7h30 maybe it was too much time sleeping I don't know I'll try to sleep earlier tonight and to set my alarm earlier too

For myself, I find that 7 hours is a little bit too late to wake and be able to go back to sleep while trying SSILD. It is generally recommended to try 4.5 to 6 hours after first going to sleep. I believe that 7 hours is not your normal time frame. You might want to try to stay closer to 4.5 hours and you can experiment on the weekends if you want. If you do have a lot of trouble getting to sleep, it is better to get up (*and do an RC! for the habit and for FA's) get up for a bit and go back to bed the old way (with no thoughts or intentions). Before getting to that stage, you can try relaxing in between the cycles…basically taking your foot off the gas pedal (accélérateur) and coasting, and then returning to the cycles as you get sleepy. I think you had some attempts where you fell asleep too soon, so you know you can get over this hurdle, especially with the right timing and adjusting the cycles off and on. Let me know if that doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

^^Lot's of good discussion and advice!

For myself, I find that 7 hours is a little bit too late to wake and be able to go back to sleep while trying SSILD. It is generally recommended to try 4.5 to 6 hours after first going to sleep. I believe that 7 hours is not your normal time frame. You might want to try to stay closer to 4.5 hours and you can experiment on the weekends if you want. If you do have a lot of trouble getting to sleep, it is better to get up (*and do an RC! for the habit and for FA's) get up for a bit and go back to bed the old way (with no thoughts or intentions). Before getting to that stage, you can try relaxing in between the cycles…basically taking your foot off the gas pedal (accélérateur) and coasting, and then returning to the cycles as you get sleepy. I think you had some attempts where you fell asleep too soon, so you know you can get over this hurdle, especially with the right timing and adjusting the cycles off and on. Let me know if that doesn't make sense.

It makes sense and that's what I was gonna say because I tried again this morning and guess what same thing happened I couldn't fall asleep so I think the 6 hours are not for me I'm gonna set my alarm 5 hours after bedtime to wake up after about 4h30 of sleep I think this'll work better I thought I was too sleepy with 4h30 but I'll just stay up a little longer because 6h is too much.
And if I can't fall asleep again with 4h30 I'll try to take time between cycles and to be sure I'll sleep
But something is weird because usually I need to sleep a lot more than that but when I try WBTB after 6 hours of sleep I feel like I can wake up so easily maybe it has something to do with the excitement or maybe that's because I'm not working this week and I'm not as tired as last week I don't know

Note that alarms have the potential issue of really starting out "wake up for the day" process. You may want to focus instead of intention and perhaps water wakings. Intention-only wakings can really work, and give us that mentally vigilant state that lends itself well to lucid dreaming.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Note that alarms have the potential issue of really starting out "wake up for the day" process. You may want to focus instead of intention and perhaps water wakings. Intention-only wakings can really work, and give us that mentally vigilant state that lends itself well to lucid dreaming.

I woke up once with the water but I'm not doing it anymore to stay lay in bed and I woke up once with intention too but only once maybe the alarm is the problem I'll give another shot a these techniques

You are doing the right thing to experiment with the different techniques to see what works for you.

Originally Posted by Raziiel

I woke up once with the water but I'm not doing it anymore to stay lay in bed...

Do you mean that you stay laying in bed when you did the water technique, never got up? I personally use the water method. I am also not a fan of alarms, but then again, maybe that will be what works for you. Perhaps with the right peaceful, slowly elevating sound, music alarm or similar. They have apps for this if you have a phone that doesn't have a similar alarm built in, or there are bedside alarms that do the same thing, nature sounds, calm music etc that might be worth a try. Either way, you are working your way up to your "sweet spot" (finding the right balance) and this is progress.