Thread: Elaol's DILD Workbook

Originally Posted by FryingMan

It would take a lengthy book review I think to really address your points. If you think that you didn't find anything new in Holecek, do you think that you put in practice his suggestions? Do you on a daily basis think about the insights he offers, did he reinforce what you already think you knew? I think for example that the chapter on mindfulness is perhaps the most important writing for LD practitioners, on how to approach lucid dreaming as lucid living, except for a few excerpts from TYoDaS.

Not every resource clicks for everybody. I find Holecek's description of just about everything deeply resonate with me, reinforcing ideas I have, and giving me new ways of looking at things. Maybe another author resonates more for you. Nothing has to be one size fits all. It's not simply "producing something new" that's important, it's describing it in a way that makes it viscerally comprehensible for regular people. That's what I love about Holecek. And that so many great ideas and framing of concepts are all in one book makes it indispensable in my opinion.

Illusory form takes some getting used to. But really, if you think about it, this IS a dream kitchen that I'm sitting in right now, writing this on a dream computer, using my dream body. If that's too much of a leap to make, consider that this *could be* a dream. Any waking moment could be taking place in the dream state.

I didn't exactly said what I intended. I really love the book, it is written in a beautiful manner and very pleasant to read. I enjoy reading it. I was meaning to say that there isn't anything new techniques-wise. I thought Tibetan monks use some extraordinary techniques, but from this book I found out they use RCs and WILD. I had irrational belief, so I am a bit disappointed that they use the same techniques we do..

About illusory form, I find your interpretation better. It is easier to think this could be a dream, than this is a dream. The latter is really not understandable for me

Thanks for your feedback FM

Originally Posted by Elaol

I didn't exactly said what I intended. I really love the book, it is written in a beautiful manner and very pleasant to read. I enjoy reading it. I was meaning to say that there isn't anything new techniques-wise. I thought Tibetan monks use some extraordinary techniques, but from this book I found out they use RCs and WILD. I had irrational belief, so I am a bit disappointed that they use the same techniques we do..

About illusory form, I find your interpretation better. It is easier to think this could be a dream, than this is a dream. The latter is really not understandable for me

Thanks for your feedback FM

The lotus visualization and tracing exercises were new to me, along with the investigation of the waking/sleep barrier in naps.

And I think it's more accurate to say that we do the same techniques as they do, since they've been doing it for a loooong time . They heavily emphasize awareness in experience and response, unlike most western resources, and that plus illusory form and intention (they talk alot about this) create a very strong fundamental basis for LDing that I think. There are all sorts of preparations for the night that are not mentioned anywhere else: loving kindness mantras/meditation, setting the protective forces about your room, etc.

It should really drive home the point that we don't need (more) techniques, we need to put into practice the fundamentals, in order to become lucid people 24x7.

For me, it is a joyous revelation to read that awareness is really all we need, and they show exactly how to develop it.

Thanks FM; the book definitely deserves a reread.

I have two ways that I will continue my practice, I would like to hear yours feedback:

1. Since we have established that awareness is the key, how about focusing on one sense at a time (hearing/sight/touch)? That way I would be aware of the present, without huge pressure of ADA.

2. For reflection, I got an idea about constant RC, something like FMs location RC. Many people has said that it is good to reflect where you are, is that dream-like and where you will be in 15 min. I was thinking to do that. I see where I am now, wonder if it is dream-like, so I try to find something odd, remember where I was 15 minutes ago and where I will be in 15 min. When I arrive at that location, I wonder is that location the correct one, see if it is dream-like, and so on....

What do you guys think? Is this a good way?

I'm not a fan of sense focus as defining awareness. That's like classical "ADA", and I think mindfulness is much more important and relevant. It is *self*-awareness that is key, not basic environmental observation. All you need I think is the sense that "*I*...am *here*....*now*".

Which isn't to say I don't look and listen, etc. I do this as part of enjoying my life experience, but I don't place an undue emphasis on the environment, I rather "feel myself" (haha) in the place, in that moment.

I will say that paying attention to visual detail as a habit results in extremely vivid and detailed dreams. So I guess I'm contradicting myself a bit. Some element of really looking at where you are is certainly important. Just not for the awareness part, but as a part of being fully involved in your environment. I hope that's not too confusing!

Like the TYoDaS drill into us: what we need are these things, in sequence: 1) awareness in the moment of experience; 2) awareness in the moment of behavior (response to experience); 3) awareness in the dream state. You start with 1, work to 2, and then finally 3 will come around more and more.

Judge your progress by honestly self-evaluating: do your mindfully control your responses to experience, or do your (mindless) responses to experience control you?

I think location reflection is good. I do it a lot. And I may even revive it to near ADRC status. But that's not the only reflection we need. We should constantly reflect on our experiences, whatever they are, beyond just location.

For example, my 2nd LD came from me dropping a stack of cards and trying to pick them up. I just couldn't, they kept slipping between my fingers and falling back down to the ground. I chuckled to myself and told myself, "this is one of those times you should check to see if you're .... DREAMING! OMG!" That's the sort of thing I'm talking about: keeping a constant eye out for things that are dream-like. Of course, it helps a lot to be really familiar with your dreams, so know the sort of things you're looking for.

Another semi-repeating theme for a while was the inability to count a small collection of objects (billiard balls in particular).

The reason I chose location for an ADRC is that my dreaming locations, other than a few well-established influential places (childhood home mostly, and somewhat more recently, former adult home, interestingly enough, current home only about 3-4 times ever), never take place in waking life locations. They're always made up, imaginary. I think this is a reasonably important pre-requisite for location ADRC. Even though they're made up, they have very common features: steep auditorium seating (lots and lots of these), racquetball/squash/basketball courts, stairways that descend along the perimeter of the walls (square buildings).

For a while I was really looking at trees a lot in dreams. I finally did some daytime MILD on this theme and caught a LD when I found myself again looking at a big impressive dream tree.

Addtionally, I kept a major eye out for all transitions, and on my path when moving. I held in my mind a map of where I came from, and where I'm going to. I got an LD once from noticing that a path that used to be open to me became unexpectedly closed off. Another time, I found myself on a ledge in an outside huge open quarry -- that's not what got me lucid, though: it was the fact that I knew I had just one moment before been somewhere else entirely different.

So location has a number of aspects: the place, of course, but also path and transitions.

transitions never worked out much for me other than that one time, because I don't notice them much in dreams. But maybe, becoming highly sensitive to them would still be valuable.

So if location is something that really resonates with you, I'd say go for it. But keep yourself open for your dreaming tendencies and think about building a waking practice around what you find yourself paying attention to most in dreams.

I also pay attention to contraptions a lot in dreams: locks, faucets, mechanical things, I get up close and really look at them. And, I see (used to, not so much any more) really bizarre highly detailed objcts. That's another example of looking at your dreams and building your waking ADRC to match.

Dreaming tendencies ("dream signs") tend to shift over time. So be open to changing your daytime focus (or secondary focus at least) to match what your dreaming tendencies of the moment are. Having a detailed dream journal is of course pretty important for this.

Hope this helps!

I will continue on about reflection for a bit because I think it's important to frame questions the right way in order to maximize chances for lucidity. I will use as an example my final two dreams from this last waking which were screaming "DREAM" at me but I didn't convert. Well, not entirely true, I *did* do an RC in-dream at last, but my doubting the dream state led me to keep re-checking instead of getting on with the LD, fully lucid.

The sorts of questions we ask ourselves should be targeted and clear and focused on identifying dream and thinking the word "dream." Questions like "where was I before this?" or "how did I get here?" or "what was I doing 15 mins ago" all have answers that the dreaming mind can quickly and easily answer with rationalizations and false memories without the concept of dreaming, and keep your thoughts focused on responding to dream phenomena instead of contemplating your state (which is what reflection is all about, it's whole raison d'etre).

An ideal question I got from the Lucidity Flashes website is: "How odd is this?" It isn't a yes/no question (but I don't think yes/no are bad necessarily), and it really can't be answered satisfactorily by rationalization and/or false memory (although this is always a possibility, the dreaming mind is a master at coming up with reasons to keep you non-lucid: it does this in every dream every night!).

The first strong sense of reflection I had was in the 2nd to last dream where I noticed that the house I was in (someone else's house) looked *exactly* like my childhood home. I noticed the back porch door, kitchen/dining room/deck layout. In the dream I even said "this place is exactly like my house!". Had I asked myself "is this a dreaming/waking location?" I may have caught it. I think getting the world "dream" into your mind as much as possible, especially in the dream, is very important. Thinking, saying, hearing, reading "dream" should jolt your awareness into high gear and cause an immediate RC. Reading DV can get exhausting if you do that, so be smart about it. I missed another LD a week or so ago when I was reading a "lucid dreaming" newsletter, and I was more concerned about covering up what I was reading from my sister how was looking over my shoulder (another dream sign, desiring privacy) than noticing the implication of an occurrence of "dream."

So location reflection should ideally be focused on the notion of dream: "is this a dream location?" double trigger there: location reflection, and the word "dream". To avoid yes/no you could phrase it as "how much like a dreaming location is this?" but that's a bit long.

Another big dream sign is things changing on you unexpectedly. The tendency here is to look to WHY it changed. This is not important for lucidity and leads to rationalization and false memory explanations. The key thing is noticing the change itself and stopping there: "change means dream!"

In one dream I had a small stone in my hand that because a large one. In another my location changed from one organization/layout to another so that I couldn't find my bed. My thought? "Oh, they've changed it again, like they did before [FALSE MEMORY]," and all I could think about was finding my bed and walking through unfamiliar, dreamy rooms, including a strange library with books with oddly colored pages. "change means dream!" "odd/strange books, dream!"

Another common dream occurrence for me is this feeling/compulsion of being driven forwards into movement. This one is tricky to form a question for. Maybe form a trigger like "moving means dream!" In waking life I can easily stand in quiet contemplation, but dreaming is all about running ahead. Maybe think about this and how to form a good reflective question that leads to "dream."

Maybe another good question that covers all these situations is "how dream-like is this?"

Anyway, think about the things you encounter in dreams, and focus your waking reflection on questions that lead directly to the notion of dream, and avoiding as much as possible the opportunity for your dreaming brain to fill the answer in with rationalizations or false memories.

In the end, what we're looking for are triggers: "odd/change/moving/unexpected/weird" -> "DREAM!"

One more point on reflection: it's good also to have "triggerless" moments: this is what illusory form is great for: you're just always realizing that this experience is all a dream (or "like a dream" if you wish): it is formed entirely from your brain/awareness interpreting the things of your raw experience as higher level ideas via schema.

I usually don't "think through" it that much, but I'm giving an idea of the sort of underlying currents that go on with those kind of moments.

Usually I just verbalize to myself, "any conscious moment could be taking place in the dream state!"

First FM, thank you for such lengthy responses, I surely didn't expect this, you're awesome

I have learned a lot from this. Location is something that might be unusual in my dreams, but I am not sure if location RC is for me. I often dream of imaginary locations, or going to the places I've never been to. But I wouldn't say that is the main characteristic of my dreams. Perhaps I should develop Toilet Induced Lucid Dream, we are missing TILD anyway I think a reread through my journal would be very useful now, since I need to find common characteristic for most of my dreams, I have dream signs, but they don't happen in almost every dream. I will increase my awareness in malls and toilets, since those two are the most common.

I think developing "here and now" train of thought is very difficult, but very useful. It is difficult, because you have to consciously think about what you are doing, until that mindfulness becomes part of your personality. "This is like a dream" attitude works fine for me, so I will apply that as well. I just need one brainstorming session to figure out how to integrate that attitude to my lifestyle. "Illusory form" reread will be very useful there

The question "How odd is this?" is ideal for reflection, I think.

OK, I got very useful information, now I am going to think about how to apply it. I am so motivated to LD because of the competition

"I am here now" is definitely sporadic, not on all of the time. It's my version of the Sageous RRC. You're welcome!

Wow, you've kept FM busy turning out a lot of material here…great job FM!

Originally Posted by Elaol

It is easier to think this could be a dream, than this is a dream. The latter is really not understandable for me

If you think back to an average waking life occurrence from yesterday or even an hour ago, you will often notice how "distant" or "fleeting" it feels, much like average dreams. How about this moment right now? It will be gone in a matter of seconds much like average dreams. Isn't every moment a dream? If you still don't quite feel it, I see nothing wrong with "it's like a dream" followed by some sincere RC's.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Maybe another good question that covers all these situations is "how dream-like is this?"

I really like this question! Asking that question really makes me contemplate my current state - waking or dreaming?

Originally Posted by fogelbise

Wow, you've kept FM busy turning out a lot of material here…great job FM!

If you think back to an average waking life occurrence from yesterday or even an hour ago, you will often notice how "distant" or "fleeting" it feels, much like average dreams. How about this moment right now? It will be gone in a matter of seconds much like average dreams. Isn't every moment a dream? If you still don't quite feel it, I see nothing wrong with "it's like a dream" followed by some sincere RC's.

I really like this question! Asking that question really makes me contemplate my current state - waking or dreaming?

Yes, indeed. The flipside of this is that dream experiences can be so compelling and waking-like that you feel like they were waking experiences. I just woke from a dream "so real" (I dislike describing dreams as being "like reality" -- dreams to me *are* reality. Dream experiences are just as authentic and felt just as much as waking experiences. At least, they are if you learn to pay attention to your dream (and waking) experiences.) where I felt that I lived through all of the experiences. Which I did! It was as highly detailed, multi-scene continuous adventure. Astonishing! I love lucids, but I'll take a cinematic, long, vivid non-lucid like that any day over a (sometimes more boring) fully lucid dream.

When you have enough experiences like this, you really feel deep in your gut that "all experience is dream."

LaBerge writes that (paraphrased) "dreams are waking experiences unconstrained by physical sense input, and waking experiences are dreams constrained by the physical senses".

It really all is a dream!

OK, thanks guys for responses.

I am currently in the process of going through last two weeks of my journal, so I can find ADRC idea

I've never tried it but ideally "mindset" would be a perfect ADRC that integrates with mindfulness & meditation. That feeling in a dream (I have it at least) of reacting not reflecting, strong emotions, and that feeling of always being pushed to move fowards, always moving, scenes always changing. That and noticing the times I stop and closely observe objects.

OK, I have some new insights, but I will write about them tomorrow.

For the last two days I've been procrastinating. Well, not exactly, I have been thinking a lot. So I will write three ideas, the first two are about my next technique, the third one is about SSILD.

1. Location RC

In my dream, I have several places that are present in 75% of my dreams: toilets, hills, malls, car/bus, Sarajevo (capital city of Bosnia), school, places I never visited etc. Because of that, I think it would be good to develop location awareness. The downside to this is that it doesn't really improve my self-awareness and I cannot apply it to all my dreams. This would also include RCs about where I was 5 min ago, where I will be in 5 min etc.

2. Situation RC

I have an idea about this, but it is hard to put it on paper/screen xD I would pay attention to what is happening around me, is it dream-like, does that happen in real life. That would mean more observation, which should increase quality of my dreams (FM, you said that paying attention to visuals increase quality of dreams, I think the same is applied here). This means more reflection and awareness, and self-awareness. I just don't know if this is overwhelming and how to incorporate all of this without my head exploding.

3. SSILD

Since I couldn't fall asleep two nights ago after SSILD, which chained thoughts about not getting enough sleep=seizure, I was wondering, what effect would have going though cycles while going to the bathroom/drinking water (which is what I do during my short WBTBs)?

That's about it, please I need your feedback to find out what to do next

I think you can work in location awareness to self-awareness, using it at least as a trigger to entering a general higher state of vigilance. Situational reflection is great and is the one thing that I work on in addition to location. You can make it sporadic, you don't have to try to keep it always on. Sporadic is the way forwards. Just see, over time, if you can decrease the time in between the "stop and check" moments. You can also use static/dynamic filtering: if you're in one place, and you've already checked if it's a waking/dreaming location, and you're staying there, then you can keep your vigilance low, "on the back burner" so to speak. Noticing static (staying still) vs. dynamic (moving alot, a lot of transitions, a lot of changes, lots of emotions, fight/flight, etc.) experiences is in itself a great thing.

You may want to avoid SSILD or any night-time awareness-raising activity unless you can fall back to sleep really quickly. I can't say if doing SSILD on the way to the bathroom would do anything or not, I would tend to think not, but hey, go ahead and see if it works.

You know, a lot of LDing is experimentation and personal discovery. If you have an idea, just try it out! Keep good records, and go with it for a few months and see what the results are. Regardless of what we teachers have to say here, you're the dreamer, so go with what feels good or interesting. If it doesn't seem to work after a while, try something else. Sometimes it's good to stick with one thing for a while, sometimes it's good to switch to something fresh so you do it more seriously with more attention.

OK, a lot of things is happening in my life now

I have made my decision on how to continue my progress, and of course, I need your feedback:

1. Go back to GRC, but just noticing weight
2. Do Location RC (where I was 15 min ago, where am I now, where will I be in 15 min, is that dream-like) every now and then, but increase the amount of RCs with time

Now my question is: does this increase self-awareness?

Originally Posted by Elaol

OK, a lot of things is happening in my life now

I have made my decision on how to continue my progress, and of course, I need your feedback:

1. Go back to GRC, but just noticing weight
2. Do Location RC (where I was 15 min ago, where am I now, where will I be in 15 min, is that dream-like) every now and then, but increase the amount of RCs with time

Now my question is: does this increase self-awareness?

Hi Elaol! It's not a simple yes/no answer. I think the answer is that you get as much self-awareness out of it (or any exercise) as you put into it. If you bring your self, you, into the equation when you reflect on these particular aspects of your experience (gravity, location), and you have a "self aware moment" while doing it, then I believe yes this would serve to increase self-awareness. The way to increase self-awareness is....to be self-aware more!

That being said, I think GRC ala Hukif is not really a self-awareness exercise. It is more about establishing an almost unconscious trigger, an always-on but (eventually) background level of vigilance, that, when combined with intent and memory ("I am noticing gravity in order to become lucid in the dream state"), causes you to become lucid because "the gravity feels like dream gravity." It's sort of a nagging feeling that gets your attention. I also think the always-thinking about something (e.g., gravity) incubates the experience of noticing gravity in dreams (that's my personal theory).

So I'd distinguish between specific, always-on vigilant triggers and sporadic, highly reflective self-aware moments. I think probably having only one of the "always-on" would be better, if you do too many it could be overwhelming.

You could certainly have a LOT of the sporadic ones, sure. But if you want the Hukif-style GRC, it's not sporadic, it's every moment (as a goal) of the day, from morning through night.

I think that's why location awareness is hard for ADRC (all day RC): it requires a bit too much processing to be "always on." It can be very frequent, but sporadic. Here it helps I think to use triggers like major transitions (inside/outside, walking/car, etc.) in order to "schedule" the most advantageous times for location awareness.

edit: A thought I had as to how to manage multiple ADRC would be to do SSILD-like "cycles": spend some time on gravity vigilance, then spend some time on location vigilance, then spend some time on ...whatever you want...and then loop back to the beginning. This constant cycling may help to keep the vigilance from falling away entirely. It's what I realize I do in my practice. I'll focus on one thing for a while (location), then another (my awareness, "I am here now"), and then another ("how odd is this?").

Heeeeey everyone

I have a lot to report

First of all, thank you FM for so comprehensive responses. I have realized that in all my lucids I have become lucid by becoming self-aware, so now I try to "step back" and observe everything during my Location RC periods.

I finally realize dream yoga's attitude "This is a dream". This is my point of view: we all perceive this world differently, so this world doesn't not exists (in this way we see it) without our perception. Since everyone has different perception, this world is different for everyone. Because of that, we can say it is like a dream, since the world in way one is seeing it exists in that way for that individual. Does this makes sense?

I am back to GRC as well I am just noticing weight of objects which help me become more mindful.

Also, I am meditating, and I can say I am doing really good job.

Last night I had another LD after 15 days, but my mom's alarm started ringing in another room, so I woke up :/

I am still struggling with quality of my lucids, I really want fully lucid dream... Last night I forgot to stabilize as well :/ What are your tips and tricks for increasing quality of dreams? I know once FM said that I need to observe closely my environment in order to increase quality, any more dreams?

Soooo, first Location Induced LD

I am walking through a mall, and I come to a staircase. I say to myself: the location here might change. It then hits me: I'm dreaming! I stabilize by touching the wall while continuing to walk down the stairs. I am also focusing on stepping sensations. Suddenly, I loose sense on sight. I try really hard to see again. I change the surroundings so I am standing in a grass field, I can sense grass on my bare feet. But the sight is gone and I lose lucidity.

So, I am happy I had another lucid, but I am really sad that in 42 lucids I have had, none of them was fully lucid.

Great! I have some urgent waking life matters that will be taking a lot of my time for a while, so I may not be updating here very frequently for a while.

Just keep it up, location may be the thing for you!

As for quality, take walks pretending you're lucid, and having the sort of lucid experience you wish for. Hold the lucidity you wish to have for as long as you want to have it in a dream. You need to be able to do it while awake before you can do it in a dream (my theory)!

OK, thanks FM, I hope you solve that problem as soon as possible.

If you find some time, please elaborate this theory a little more. What do you mean by hold lucidity? I guess you meant that I do stabilization and wander around as if I am lucid. Do I need to do anything else for maximum effect?

I mean to *be lucid*. What is lucid? Self-awareness. Be aware of your awareness, be aware that you're aware of your state. Be the way you want to be in dreams. Ask yourself, what is that way? What do you mean, "fully lucid?" I do not mean walking around rubbing your hands like crazy or constantly "thinking about stabilization," no. Instead, enjoy the experience, fully participate and pay attention to it while it's happening. Visualize what you want your lucid dreams to be like, how your mind is clear, how you notice things, how you remember your current set of dream goals, then *be* that way in your practice. Visualizing the dream control you want to do is also quite good and builds positive expectation.

Congratulations on your first location induced LD!!

I agree with FM's recommendations. When he says to be aware of your awareness, that is something that can take some time to sink in. It is something I was able to develop through Sageous' RRC (and reading that part of ETWOLD). When I am working on it consistently while keeping a strong sense of me in those exercises, I seem to have higher level lucid dreams. *I* am *here* *now!* *I* am he who is aware! *I* am he who is aware of my awareness!

Thanks guys for your responses

I have some interesting things to mention.

First, the stupidest way I missed becoming lucid. I was dreaming of my mom having bracelet. On that bracelet are written the following words: This is a dream! I dreamed about that and didn't become lucid *facepalm*

The next thing, I had my first real Gravity ILD. I was carrying suitcase and I lifted both the hand with suitcase and the other hand. I thought to myself: it shouldn't be that easy to lift the hand with suitcase, I must be dreaming. Then I tried to stabilize. Everything started blinking and I started to float (unintentionally). I floated back to my room. At that time I felt both my dream body and my real paralyzed body. I floated into my real body and the paralysis has stopped.

I had meditative walk, where I practiced self-awareness, GRC and location RC. It felt really relaxing and it gave me lucid dream

One thing to note: I think I overthink stabilization. I don't have high level lucids yet, I think I focus too much on stabilization and then the dream collapses. The next time, I will just become self-aware and that is it. I will see how it goes