Thread: Elaol's DILD Workbook

Originally Posted by Elaol

That's why I want to start this thread and systematically try out different techniques. A month each, if I see a technique promises, I will do another month. Right now, I am reading Sensei's topics and I have urge to try everything at once, so I hope this topic will give me both motivation and order, so I can get most out of every technique.
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This Workbook has primary purpose of giving me motivation and order in my LD practice, but if anyone is interested feel free to ask me any question you'd like.

Welcome Elaol! You are welcome to use this workbook space to simply log your results and we can chime in more so or less so, depending on your preference. I do think that interacting with others in this workbook can be motivating, one of your purposes, so feel free to give us more direction on how much regular interaction you would like from FryingMan and I.

In the past two months, I was doing Puffin's SAT technique (had about 1 LD a week for the first month), Yoshi's ADA (which I find very hard to do), and I was experimenting with my own technique (which I will put on pause). These three techniques were mentally exhausting.
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For the first month I am going to try Hukif's Gravity RC.

I thought I should chime in on this. I believe the gravity technique may take well more than a month to get it working, but if you can stick with it, it should be effective. You will probably also find the gravity technique to be exhausting like you mentioned about the other 3 you tried, but then again it may feel very natural to you, especially with your own personalized approach. I have tried variations of techniques that I also found exhausting but always looked to fine tune them so that they were not exhausting but couldn't stick with the gravity one. You want something that you can keep up without it feeling like a burden while producing results before too long. Have you tried SSILD or any other WBTB technique consistently?

Originally Posted by fogelbise

Welcome Elaol! You are welcome to use this workbook space to simply log your results and we can chime in more so or less so, depending on your preference. I do think that interacting with others in this workbook can be motivating, one of your purposes, so feel free to give us more direction on how much regular interaction you would like from FryingMan and I.

Thank you! You and FryingMan are more experienced than I am, so whenever you feel you can add something that can help me, feel free to comment. I would like to get help from more experienced members.

Originally Posted by fogelbise

I thought I should chime in on this. I believe the gravity technique may take well more than a month to get it working, but if you can stick with it, it should be effective. You will probably also find the gravity technique to be exhausting like you mentioned about the other 3 you tried, but then again it may feel very natural to you, especially with your own personalized approach. I have tried variations of techniques that I also found exhausting but always looked to fine tune them so that they were not exhausting but couldn't stick with the gravity one. You want something that you can keep up without it feeling like a burden while producing results before too long. Have you tried SSILD or any other WBTB technique consistently?

Due to some medical issues I have, I can't practice techniques from WILD branch, because I need consistent sleep schedule. Also, I've tried SSILD once, it made me feel nauseated. I prefer techniques from DILD branch. I see that gravity RC can take some work, I've read again the tutorial for it. I'll try for the first month, and if it starts feeling more natural, I will continue with it, if I don't see any change, I'll switch to something else.

I'm having hard time understanding this RC. It is so hard to focus on gravity, when you usually don't pay attention to it. I hope I will figure it out in the next couple of days. I don't know what am I supposed to feel, what is normal, what not. I now know why Hukif said there is large quitting rate. But I won't be in that group.

I've spent Day 1 holding an object in one hand and other free, so I could feel the difference. I also tried, through yoga, to deprive my legs of blood, so I can feel the difference.

I've also realized that gravity in my dreams isn't distorted, but again, I don't pay attention to it IRL, so when I start doing it during wakefulness, it will transition to the dreams.

I am not really happy with Day 1, tomorrow will be better.

FryingMan, I know you've tried to develop your own natural RC, using location. How did you come to that idea? I like Hukif's idea of natural RCs. Did you analyze your dreams in some way? Right now, I have no ideas for my natural RC, but probably a reread through journal would give me an idea. I just don't know what to look for.

Today I have clearer picture of what should I do. I think I know understand the theory behind gravity RC and what I should do.

Tonight I am going to practice some more with growing accustom with the feeling of my body's weight.

I have noticed that in the past two days, my recall is awful. Yesterday I couldn't remember a single dream (but I took sleeping pill, so I didn't give it much thought), but this morning two very short dreams. I think it is because I stopped doing RCs. i hope my dream recall is going to come back to normal in the next few days, when the boost of awareness from gravity RC kicks in.

I am also spending enormous time on computer, so today, I am shutting it down at 8 PM (which is now).

OK, it is starting to get exciting

I finally know what I should do. I now notice slight pull or weight when my hands are relaxed. I also notice weight of objects I am carrying. On this level I am currently on, I can only notice difference in the "pulling" sensation when I am carrying heavier objects. I go to gym 6 days a week, so that is great chance to notice different weights.

I've read everything that can be found on this forum about Gravity RC. I heard both Hukif and Azul telling that I should do what feels natural. This pulling sensation feels natural to me and it is not hard to pay attention to it, since I have already mastered ADA (in a way that I can easily become aware ADA-style, but I have troubles keeping it consistent).

I only have difficulties paying attention to pulling sensation when I am lying or sitting, because I don't know what to focus on: the feeling of me pressing another object, contact between me and the object or something else? I would really like to hear others opinion on this. I don't know how it would feel if the gravity was stronger. Does anyone have any info on this?

BTW I was reading about one really tempting technique, but I said to myself: "You've made your workbook, you won't quit until you finish". So, this keeps my motivation up.

OK, I'm super excited for this

Last night I had lucid dream, but with the lowest level of lucidity, so I just knew I was dreaming, but I wasn't conscious enough to stabilize and do something fun. In this dream, I just jumped around. But, I was staying longer in the air than in waking. So, the gravity is indeed messed up in my dreams. I love that I had this dream last night.

One more thing to report. I was finding things odd in my dreams last night, I don't know if I am exaggerating or not, but in two different dreams, I was finding things odd. First, I saw some kids who wanted to rob me. They had red faces. I thought that was weird. I punched one with my leg, but because REM was ending, I wasn't paralyzed, so I punched the wall with my leg. It hurts so bad xD

In other dream, I was dreaming about some child who was devil in disguise. The dream changed, so I was watching that on TV. I switched the channel to number 2. I saw that now I am watching FoxLife. I found that weird, since FoxLife isn't on number 2 anymore.

I think this gravity RC is making me more aware in my dreams. I wonder what will happen in the next few days....

Originally Posted by Elaol

I only have difficulties paying attention to pulling sensation when I am lying or sitting, because I don't know what to focus on: the feeling of me pressing another object, contact between me and the object or something else? I would really like to hear others opinion on this. I don't know how it would feel if the gravity was stronger. Does anyone have any info on this?

You will likely find something that feels natural to you, but yes the pressure between you and the objects you are resting on is one way to note how gravity is pulling you down towards those objects. Hukif is often helpful through PM's or his gravity thread, if you want some additional ideas from the expert.

Originally Posted by Elaol

OK, I'm super excited for this

Last night I had lucid dream

Congratulations Elaol!

Hi Elael, welcome and congrats on your lucidity!

I indeed did work on a location-based ADA/RC for a while in my first year. I got some success with it (noticing location/paths in my dreams) but I chose to instead focus more on mindfulness.

I chose location because I always notice features of my dream locations in my dreams, that focused strongly in my recall of my dreams. It was a toss-up between location and object awareness, I typically also strongly focus on objects as well, but not always.

I noticed gravity a few times in dreams, but it's rare. In those rare cases, I would feel too light or would be carried away by strong wind, or just started floating.

Something Hukif emphasizes with ADA/RC is that you should always keep in the back of your mind, *why* you are being aware of what you're focusing on (gravity, location, whatever): to recognize the dream state.

You want to set up an association between feeling gravity and thinking about your state (waking / dreaming).

Don't forget about the fundamentals! Meditation, like you mentioned, is extremely beneficial. Building mental strength of focus, becoming an expert in practicing relaxation, learning to stay aware while not being distracted by thoughts, all this is essential in LD practice.

Hukif spent 8 years trying to get lucid before he came upon his gravity ADA/RC approach, and then it took him 3 months of practicing to get his first LD from it. He had amazingly vivid dreams where he couldn't tell that he was in the dream state (other RCs didn't work for him for some reason). So he was starting with a very high level of self-awareness, and great dream recall.

So don't forget awareness & memory in your practice, is what I'm suggesting.

Thank you both for your responses, the feedback I am getting means a lot to me

Originally Posted by fogelbise

You will likely find something that feels natural to you, but yes the pressure between you and the objects you are resting on is one way to note how gravity is pulling you down towards those objects. Hukif is often helpful through PM's or his gravity thread, if you want some additional ideas from the expert.

Yeah, I sent him a message, but he wasn't online in a while, so I didn't get the response. I'll try to be aware on the pressure between me and the object.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Something Hukif emphasizes with ADA/RC is that you should always keep in the back of your mind, *why* you are being aware of what you're focusing on (gravity, location, whatever): to recognize the dream state.

You want to set up an association between feeling gravity and thinking about your state (waking / dreaming).

Don't forget about the fundamentals! Meditation, like you mentioned, is extremely beneficial. Building mental strength of focus, becoming an expert in practicing relaxation, learning to stay aware while not being distracted by thoughts, all this is essential in LD practice.

I didn't know that, it wasn't mentioned in his tutorial. Thank you for that.

I get what you are saying, I can notice my awareness starts do drop while I am talking to someone. I completely forget to stay aware.

Originally Posted by Elaol

Thank you both for your responses, the feedback I am getting means a lot to me



Yeah, I sent him a message, but he wasn't online in a while, so I didn't get the response. I'll try to be aware on the pressure between me and the object.



I didn't know that, it wasn't mentioned in his tutorial. Thank you for that.

It was something he mentioned to me personally when advising me on my ADA/RC efforts, and it struck me a being particularly important. I haven't seen him mention it since, it may be so natural to him now that he doesn't realize he's doing it.

I get what you are saying, I can notice my awareness starts do drop while I am talking to someone. I completely forget to stay aware.

Me, too! Building awareness in behavior/response/reaction is a big step and can take time. However, noticing it is at least half the battle, so good job!

Originally Posted by FryingMan

It was something he mentioned to me personally when advising me on my ADA/RC efforts, and it struck me a being particularly important. I haven't seen him mention it since, it may be so natural to him now that he doesn't realize he's doing it.

Me, too! Building awareness in behavior/response/reaction is a big step and can take time. However, noticing it is at least half the battle, so good job!

Thank you for your response, it is very helpful. I will try to make connection between those two.

About day 5...

I am not entirely happy with today's progress on the gravity RC. Deadline for my masters application was moved closer than I expected, so I was really stressed out. So I didn't do GRC today as much as I wanted to...

Also, while I was drinking coffee with a friend, I again forgot about GRC, I really have to try harder.

Anyway, not so exciting day.

See ya tomorrow.

Take it day by day. Don't get frustrated. Count each lucid moment, where you come back from autopilot and become self-aware again, as a victory. You want to have more and more of them over time. It takes time to build up a habit of mindfulness. Speaking of mindfulness, you may want to look into mindfulness, there are a lot of threads here (see the link to "awesome links" in my signature).

With gravity RC, you're sort of jumping in to what I'd call a "middle practice." While anything that is right for you can work, by starting with it you're jumping over some more basic, introductory practices, like what LaBerge teaches in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming ("regular" RCs, reflection/intention moments, prospective memory exercises, dream signs, etc.). The nice thing about these ETWOLD practices is that they're not "full time," so you don't feel pressure to hold them up all day.

Wow, thanks FryingMan, this is something like Sensei's "Thanks for all the fish" topic, which was awesome. I read it all, so now I have some more to read

Today was another stressful day. I am having difficulties deciding which Master should I go to (since I have gain some new information about the program I was going to go to). If someone here is from Germany and knows university which has psychotherapy/counseling master taught in English let me know

OK, that was a little of topic, sorry.

Anyways, I have something to report. Last nigh when I went to bed, I had several hypnic jerks which kept me from sleeping for a good two hours. I started getting hypnagogic hallucinations at one point and I just went with it. Idk why, but then I decided to do nose-plug RC, I could breathe. That was so shocking that I woke up.

20 minutes after, I got some more HH and I found myself typing an SMS. I thought this was a dream, and again jolted awake.

Those two WILD were really surprising to me, since I haven't been sleep deprived, so no REM rebound. They were probably so short because I was in early stages of sleep and because I was so shocked.

Around 6 AM, I was dreaming about kissing a girl whose twin sister I liked. It suddenly became so real, I realized I was dreaming and I went with it on purpose for a minute or two, then I woke up.

So three lucids in a night, not so bad, right?

I really need to learn how to stabilize. I have trouble with prolonging dreams, since I usually awake after two or three minutes after I become lucid. I realize this is supposed to be DILD workbook, but I had to write it here. I know a lot of stabilization techniques, I just never manage to do them right.

About GRC; today was better. I was noticing the heaviness of my laptop bag and my water bottle. I also had an epiphany about how to start noticing the legs. I even think it would be better to concentrate on the legs, since my arms are often busy by carrying something.

Also, when I am noticing my arms, sometimes they seem heavier than usual. That was odd to me, but I guess it is just because I haven't fully adapted to GRC. What do you think?

That's about it. Let me know what do you guys think

Originally Posted by Elaol

Wow, thanks FryingMan, this is something like Sensei's "Thanks for all the fish" topic, which was awesome. I read it all, so now I have some more to read


OK, that was a little of topic, sorry.

You're welcome! It's handy to have a collection of links to great posts to refer people to. Nothing is off-topic here, feel free to ask/ruminate about anything LD-related!

Anyways, I have something to report. Last nigh when I went to bed, I had several hypnic jerks which kept me from sleeping for a good two hours. I started getting hypnagogic hallucinations at one point and I just went with it. Idk why, but then I decided to do nose-plug RC, I could breathe. That was so shocking that I woke up.

Sleeping/dreaming is so amazing! I have often wondered, in my many "failed" WILD attempts, if in fact I was actually dreaming of being in bed and continuing my WILD attempt! The close cousin of a FA, I call it a "false still awake"-ing.

Around 6 AM, I was dreaming about kissing a girl whose twin sister I liked. It suddenly became so real, I realized I was dreaming and I went with it on purpose for a minute or two, then I woke up.

So three lucids in a night, not so bad, right?

Nice! I don't think I've even once managed to "pull myself away" from a KILD (kiss initiated lucid dream) . Those dream girls can be .... dreamy!

I really need to learn how to stabilize. I have trouble with prolonging dreams, since I usually awake after two or three minutes after I become lucid. I realize this is supposed to be DILD workbook, but I had to write it here. I know a lot of stabilization techniques, I just never manage to do them right.

Not off topic for us, stabilization is part of dreaming! 2-3 minutes is a decent LD. I know we all want longer. To be stable and lucid in the dream state, we need to be stable and lucid in the waking state. Waking state practice (where or how else are we going to practice?) is key to shaping dream state behavior.

About GRC; today was better. I was noticing the heaviness of my laptop bag and my water bottle. I also had an epiphany about how to start noticing the legs. I even think it would be better to concentrate on the legs, since my arms are often busy by carrying something.

Also, when I am noticing my arms, sometimes they seem heavier than usual. That was odd to me, but I guess it is just because I haven't fully adapted to GRC. What do you think?

That's about it. Let me know what do you guys think

I'm of the opinion that if you really want to give something a solid shot, you should give it at least a solid year. LDing is not an immediate-gratification sort of pursuit. It pays to plan and think for the long-term. Give yourself time to settle into it, and to notice it more and more. Maybe set some short and medium term goals about how many times a day and how long you notice gravity.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

Not off topic for us, stabilization is part of dreaming! 2-3 minutes is a decent LD. I know we all want longer. To be stable and lucid in the dream state, we need to be stable and lucid in the waking state. Waking state practice (where or how else are we going to practice?) is key to shaping dream state behavior.

Can you elaborate this further? Do you mean practicing stabilization in real life, like doing micro-ADA cycles, focusing on all senses, as Sensei recommends? Or do you mean general mindfulness, RCs, etc.?

Originally Posted by FryingMan

I'm of the opinion that if you really want to give something a solid shot, you should give it at least a solid year. LDing is not an immediate-gratification sort of pursuit. It pays to plan and think for the long-term. Give yourself time to settle into it, and to notice it more and more. Maybe set some short and medium term goals about how many times a day and how long you notice gravity.

I think I will stick with GRC for a while now. I know LD is a skill that takes a bit of time. When I was starting I was spending whole summer 10 AM-2PM trying to WILD, without success of course, timing was awful. Now I accidentally learned how to WILD xD; so I am going to explore that some more while doing GRC as well

Originally Posted by Elaol

Can you elaborate this further? Do you mean practicing stabilization in real life, like doing micro-ADA cycles, focusing on all senses, as Sensei recommends? Or do you mean general mindfulness, RCs, etc.?

I mean periods of continuous lucidity and stability/calmness/engagement. Mindfulness is one way to think about it, yes. I don't think in the middle of an action dream you'll want to stop and engage senses (although it may not be a bad idea to try!), but remaining mindful of your lucidity and the fact that you're dreaming can be very beneficial for prolonging LDs.

The goal seeking center of the brain is very powerful, and I find having concrete short-term goals in a LD have produced my longest, most enjoyable LDs. Try that in waking life: out on a walk, pick a goal, like seeing what's on the other side of that tree in the distance, and keep that goal firmly in your mind while walking there, remaining mindful of your immediate experience while you're on your way there, doing occasional RCs if you feel like it.

Waking stability I think manifests itself in paying careful attention to the now, and avoiding distracting thoughts. So again, sort of like mindfulness. I think mindfulness is pretty much the answer to everything .

But yes, actually practice what you would do in a dream to stabilize: look all around you, give yourself a pat down, touch the ground, touch things around you, etc. That can help.

Congratulations on all of that awareness to become lucid multiple times! You probably got all of the information that you need for now from FryingMan, but I didn't want you to think that I was ignoring your workbook. Nice job as usual FM!! The only thing I thought of to add to his excellent answers was regarding stabilization. A lot of it comes with experience, but I think Sensei's approach is helpful. I only remember listening to it in his audio thread (within the 3rd link in my signature box). I can't remember which file it is in but if you like audio I would encourage you to listen to them all. I know that not worrying about stability is very helpful. Be happy that you are getting lucid and KNOW that you can achieve stability. I also personally have been thinking lately how a little bit of detachment is useful for stability. The first level of it is something like "okay I'm dreaming, okay I can do anything I want, and basically not getting excited."

Another big help is knowing that you don't have to end up awake just because the dream is fading…expecting to go to the void or go to a false awakening or for another dream scene to form, and before you know it you will find many experiences where you don't just wake up and you can extend the time you are lucid dreaming. I think many assumed DEILD's are actually from a false awakening state, but practicing DEILD's can get you looking for opportunities to extend the dream as well, instead of expecting to just wake up. I started off extending my dreams when I heard about the void, then I read some advice from Sageous (info is in the 1st link in my signature box...avoiding the normal path back to your waking body). That advice got me sometimes surfing the space between dreams, sometimes within a complete but temporary void and sometimes just in space with very reduced visibility, temporarily gradually adding more and more detail. Happy dreams!!

Edit/tip: show FM some love when you can and click the like button on the posts that you found helpful.

Thanks fogelbise and FryingMan. I love getting feedback from you. I didn't know about this "like" option, I gave both of you bunch of likes

@FryingMan, I will research more about mindfulness. I do Vipassana, as I told in my first post, but it takes long time for it to have effect. I actually think that GRC works a lot like mindfulness, because the person is constantly paying attention to one thing. Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Elaol

Thanks fogelbise and FryingMan. I love getting feedback from you. I didn't know about this "like" option, I gave both of you bunch of likes

@FryingMan, I will research more about mindfulness. I do Vipassana, as I told in my first post, but it takes long time for it to have effect. I actually think that GRC works a lot like mindfulness, because the person is constantly paying attention to one thing. Do you agree?

It can be a lot like mindfulness, if you use it as a continuous anchor into the present moment and to continually stay in touch with your self-awareness. It's important to maintain a sense of reflection, so that the gravity awareness does not degenerate into simple observation. The point is not to notice gravity -- the point is to recognize the dream state. To use the feel of gravity as a never-ending reminder/trigger to yourself to grasp the truth about your present state, a source of constant vigilance, that I believe is the point. I also theorize that there's a major element of of incubation in ADA/RC: we dream about what we're thinking about during the day, so if we're constantly vigilant for the dream state (via something like gravity, location, dream feeling, etc.), we will dream about looking for the dream state, which should also spur lucidity.

Originally Posted by Elaol

Thanks fogelbise and FryingMan. I love getting feedback from you. I didn't know about this "like" option, I gave both of you bunch of likes

@FryingMan, I will research more about mindfulness. I do Vipassana, as I told in my first post, but it takes long time for it to have effect. I actually think that GRC works a lot like mindfulness, because the person is constantly paying attention to one thing. Do you agree?

It can be a lot like mindfulness, if you use it as a continuous anchor into the present moment and to continually stay in touch with your self-awareness. It's important to maintain a sense of reflection, so that the gravity awareness does not degenerate into simple observation. The point is not to notice gravity -- the point is to recognize the dream state. To use the feel of gravity as a never-ending reminder/trigger to yourself to grasp the truth about your present state, a source of constant vigilance, that I believe is the point. I also theorize that there's a major element of of incubation in ADA/RC: we dream about what we're thinking about during the day, so if we're constantly vigilant for the dream state (via something like gravity, location, dream feeling, etc.), we will dream about looking for the dream state, which should also spur lucidity.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

It can be a lot like mindfulness, if you use it as a continuous anchor into the present moment and to continually stay in touch with your self-awareness. It's important to maintain a sense of reflection, so that the gravity awareness does not degenerate into simple observation. The point is not to notice gravity -- the point is to recognize the dream state. To use the feel of gravity as a never-ending reminder/trigger to yourself to grasp the truth about your present state, a source of constant vigilance, that I believe is the point. I also theorize that there's a major element of of incubation in ADA/RC: we dream about what we're thinking about during the day, so if we're constantly vigilant for the dream state (via something like gravity, location, dream feeling, etc.), we will dream about looking for the dream state, which should also spur lucidity.

So, basically, every time I am noticing gravity, I should be thinking whether or not it feels normal? If it does it means I'm awake, if it doesn't I'm dreaming. Am I right?

Originally Posted by Elaol

So, basically, every time I am noticing gravity, I should be thinking whether or not it feels normal? If it does it means I'm awake, if it doesn't I'm dreaming. Am I right?

That's what Hukif recommends -- continual focus on the feeling of gravity: is it waking or dreaming?

So, I gain a lot of insight today.

I practiced a bit gravity of my legs. I did leg workout today in the gym. I've put 40kg on the leg extensions and then tried without any weight to see how it feels.

I also practiced a bit with my arms.

Nothing special.

See ya tomorrow

I'M SO EXCITEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!

Sorry for this, but I'm so psyched up.

Anyway, last night I woke up from the dream, but was lazy to record it (I just know it was so awesome dream, but I can't remember it). Anyway, I was drifting off to sleep, and I jumped out of bed to record the dream, but got only a sentence or two. I had to pee and to eat something, so I completely woke up. I was falling asleep on and off for two hours. I got bored with that and took sleeping pill.

Next dream I had, I was playing a video game I like very much. I realized that I can't play that on my laptop which means I was dreaming. The dream started to fade, and I stabilized it. I can't recall the exact technique I used, I think I was rubbing the door of my room. I also remeber shouting "Lucidity!", but my voice was heavy and I had trouble speaking. The dream finally felt like reality and not like I just woke up form 1000 year long sleep. I also felt gravity feeling strange, like my legs were harder to move (unfortunately that wasn't lucid trigger). i went to the door and said to myself "on the other end of this door will be Dubrovnik". I tried to open the door, but I couldn't find the door knob. I then pushed myself through the window (why didn't I try this with a door?) and I saw the snow outside. The next technique for trying to change the scene was spinning, but I just started to levitate and go back to the bed. Somehow, I forced myself back on the floor. Wheel of time is my favorite book series, so I tried to use saidin, but no luck. The last thing I did was trying to summon light ball, but I focused too much on it and woke up.

Anyways, I see my dream description is a bit boring (I'm not the best writer), but I am amazed for three reasons:
1. I took diazepine, which usually kills my dreams and I had lucid
2. The gravity felt different in my legs, that gives me more info for daily practice
3. I FREAKIN' HAD THE BEST LUCID DREAM IN MY LIFE

Let me know what do you guys think