Stabelizing? Where are Your Elbows and Knee: Advanced Trick.

If you already have good control and can always find your hands try this comlex stablizing trick. After finding your hands look up your fore arms and examine your elbows, bend them and really picture it. Then reach down with fully articulating arms and place your hands on your knees. Look at the whole picture and flex your knees. Get to where you can really see and feel hands, elbows and knees plus feel each of them move. By this point you should be extreamly stable. I use this method about every 15 minutes to keep me in marathon dreams when I have plenty of time. This intense of a stablizing ritual allows me to stay in an LD up to 90 minutes or more if everything works out and no extrenal thing forces me to wake (damb bladder, how many wonderful marathon LDs have you broken me out of!)

Please add any stabilizing methods you use that seem to be for more advanced dreamers.

I always try to interact with, and get a sense of, my dream body when I become lucid, it makes for much more stable, tangible and realistic dreams.

As for another 'advanced' technique, Nomad's 'magical' reality check: http://www.dreamviews.org/f49/magica...-check-128460/, I like to test my control and connection to the dream by manifesting blue light energy. It's a good way of seeing if you need to further raise your awareness/stability and also feels pretty cool :)

Great idea. One thing though. How can you LD for 90min straight, if the REM periods aren't that long?

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Originally Posted by dreamguy1515

Great idea. One thing though. How can you LD for 90min straight, if the REM periods aren't that long?

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It's obvious the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. After all, the only sort of arguably "advanced" stabilization techniques don't rely on physical constructs. For instance, a technique like this doesn't hold water if you don't have a body, which makes it useless when working in the abstract..

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Originally Posted by Mzzkc

It's obvious the guy doesn't know what he's talking about. After all, the only sort of arguably "advanced" stabilization techniques don't rely on physical constructs. For instance, a technique like this doesn't hold water if you don't have a body, which makes it useless when working in the abstract..

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I beg to differ. Except for maybe a few people, sivison is one of the best lucid dreamers on Dreamviews, trust me, he knows what he is talking about. Well yeah it won't work if you don't have a body; but i have yet to have a dream where i don't. And when you say it isn't advanced, it all depends on who you are talking to. If it works for him, more power to him, if it doesn't work for you it doesn't mean it is a bad technique.

I will try this next time I'm lucid. Lately, I barely have a body, at all. It seems I'm just a floating consciousness most of the time.

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Originally Posted by dreamguy1515

Great idea. One thing though. How can you LD for 90min straight, if the REM periods aren't that long?

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Here is a cut and paste from wickipedia, just so everyone can get a basic outline for the sleep cycle, it is good to refresh my memory. I will put some of the words in bold so I can talk about them below:

Sleep proceeds in cycles of REM and NREM, the order normally being N1 → N2 → N3 → N2 → REM. There is a greater amount of deep sleep (stage N3) earlier in the sleep cycle, while the proportion of REM sleep increases later in the sleep cycle and just before natural awakening.

The stages of sleep were first described in 1937 by Alfred Lee Loomis and his coworkers, who separated the different electroencephalography (EEG) features of sleep into five levels (A to E), which represented the spectrum from wakefulness to deep sleep.[7] In 1953, REM sleep was discovered as distinct, and thus William Dement and Nathaniel Kleitman reclassified sleep into four NREM stages and REM.[8] The staging criteria were standardized in 1968 by Allan Rechtschaffen and Anthony Kales in the "R&K sleep scoring manual."[9] In the R&K standard, NREM sleep was divided into four stages, with slow-wave sleep comprising stages 3 and 4. In stage 3, delta waves made up less than 50% of the total wave patterns, while they made up more than 50% in stage 4. Furthermore, REM sleep was sometimes referred to as stage 5.


Sleep stages and other characteristics of sleep are commonly assessed by polysomnography in a specialized sleep laboratory. Measurements taken include EEG of brain waves, electrooculography (EOG) of eye movements, and electromyography (EMG) of skeletal muscle activity. In humans, each sleep cycle lasts from 90 to 110 minutes on average,[13] and each stage may have a distinct physiological function. This can result in sleep that exhibits loss of consciousness but does not fulfill its physiological functions (i.e., one may still feel tired after apparently sufficient sleep).

[edit] NREM sleep

Main article: Non-rapid eye movement sleep

According to the 2007 AASM standards, NREM consists of three stages. There is relatively little dreaming in NREM.

Stage N1 refers to the transition of the brain from alpha waves having a frequency of 8–13 Hz (common in the awake state) to theta waves having a frequency of 4–7 Hz. This stage is sometimes referred to as somnolence or drowsy sleep. Sudden twitches and hypnic jerks, also known as positive myoclonus, may be associated with the onset of sleep during N1. Some people may also experience hypnagogic hallucinations during this stage. During N1, the subject loses some muscle tone and most conscious awareness of the external environment.

Stage N2 is characterized by sleep spindles ranging from 11 to 16 Hz (most commonly 12–14 Hz) and K-complexes. During this stage, muscular activity as measured by EMG decreases, and conscious awareness of the external environment disappears. This stage occupies 45–55% of total sleep in adults.

Stage N3 (deep or slow-wave sleep) is characterized by the presence of a minimum of 20% delta waves ranging from 0.5–2 Hz and having a peak-to-peak amplitude >75 μV. (EEG standards define delta waves to be from 0 to 4 Hz, but sleep standards in both the original R&K, as well as the new 2007 AASM guidelines have a range of 0.5–2 Hz.) This is the stage in which parasomnias such as night terrors, nocturnal enuresis, sleepwalking, and somniloquy occur. Many illustrations and descriptions still show a stage N3 with 20–50% delta waves and a stage N4 with greater than 50% delta waves; these have been combined as stage N3.

[edit] REM sleep

Main article: Rapid eye movement sleep

Rapid eye movement sleep, or REM sleep, accounts for 20–25% of total sleep time in most human adults. The criteria for REM sleep include rapid eye movements as well as a rapid low-voltage EEG. Most memorable dreaming occurs in this stage. At least in mammals, a descending muscular atonia is seen. Such paralysis may be necessary to protect organisms from self-damage through physically acting out scenes from the often-vivid dreams that occur during this stage.



1) REM cycles are longer after you are well rested, that is why most people who wild use the WBTB kind of tricks. At 4 hours you can get decent lucids, but the marathon ones happen to me after 6.5 hours or more of sleep
2) I am not saying all LDs can be that long, but talk to the members who have ten or more years experience and most will say they have had LDs well over 30 minutes long. You get better with practice at making the dreams stay intact and lucid. That is the idea in this thread. What advanced tricks are others using? Lets say an advanced trick will be anything we feel is not very useful to people with less than dozens of LDs experience.
3)This article says the cycles are 90-110 minutes on average. An above average cycle should be possable, maybe 2 hours. I have never heard from any member who seemed honest of LDs breaking the 3 hour mark, but I think at least a few dozen of us have LDs over an hour.
4)Dreaming is possable in nREM cycles, they are not as common and less vivid. With traing your LDs can take place in other sleep cycles. I refer to these as low grade LDs, because they never seem to have as much detail and few DCs. One way to get LDs when you wild is to start a low grade LD within about 20 minutes of SP and use it to create an REM cycle sooner.

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

As for another 'advanced' technique, Nomad's 'magical' reality check: http://www.dreamviews.org/f49/magica...-check-128460/, I like to test my control and connection to the dream by manifesting blue light energy. It's a good way of seeing if you need to further raise your awareness/stability and also feels pretty cool :)

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I like that, I never heard of that, so thanks for sharing. It is very straight forward and sounds like it is fun.

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Originally Posted by dreamguy1515

I beg to differ. Except for maybe a few people, sivison is one of the best lucid dreamers on Dreamviews, trust me, he knows what he is talking about. Well yeah it won't work if you don't have a body; but i have yet to have a dream where i don't. And when you say it isn't advanced, it all depends on who you are talking to. If it works for him, more power to him, if it doesn't work for you it doesn't mean it is a bad technique.

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Blush

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I will try this next time I'm lucid. Lately, I barely have a body, at all. It seems I'm just a floating consciousness most of the time.

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That is why I like that stablizing trick, because I end up with a very clear and realistic body.

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Originally Posted by Mzzkc

After all, the only sort of arguably "advanced" stabilization techniques don't rely on physical constructs. For instance, a technique like this doesn't hold water if you don't have a body, which makes it useless when working in the abstract..

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For the sake of this thread let's call advanced any trick that won't be useable by someone with less than a feew dozen LDs, or are just naturals. Please share though, on some techniques you find useful and advanced.

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Originally Posted by dreamguy1515

Well yeah it won't work if you don't have a body; but i have yet to have a dream where i don't. And when you say it isn't advanced, it all depends on who you are talking to.

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This is exactly the kind of technique to assure you do have a dream body to play around in. I mention it is advanced, based on you fact you must always be able to find your hands. If Mzzkc can not at will create basic dream hands, this technique may be less useful for him, but hopefully other people will suggest some things that would work if you can't form hands.

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Originally Posted by Robot_Butler

I will try this next time I'm lucid. Lately, I barely have a body, at all. It seems I'm just a floating consciousness most of the time.

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for some reason one of the things I really enjoy in lucid dreaming is having a tangible body on par with waking life, I just think it's so cool how the dreaming brain can recreate the feeling of your feet hitting the floor when you walk and stuff like that, what's more I find it easiest to shapeshift by visualising what I expect my dream body to look like and interacting with my dream body to solidify the change.

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Originally Posted by Mzzkc

For instance, a technique like this doesn't hold water if you don't have a body, which makes it useless when working in the abstract.

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But not all of us can transform into a planet each night ;)

Sivason: :3... it didn't work last night... I woke up in 15sec lol

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Originally Posted by dreamguy1515

Sivason: :3... it didn't work last night... I woke up in 15sec lol

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LOL! How about you start with just being able to move your fingers independently. Finding your hands is actually not all that easy at first by itself, but after you find them try using them like waving or making a fist then opening it again. Even a 15 sec LD is worth smiling over, good job!

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Originally Posted by sivason

LOL! How about you start with just being able to move your fingers independently. Finding your hands is actually not all that easy at first by itself, but after you find them try using them like waving or making a fist then opening it again. Even a 15 sec LD is worth smiling over, good job!

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Yeah. I have a LD 2nights in a row... this is awesome.. I am hoping to be able do it tonight :>

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Originally Posted by dreamguy1515

I beg to differ. Except for maybe a few people, sivison is one of the best lucid dreamers on Dreamviews, trust me, he knows what he is talking about. Well yeah it won't work if you don't have a body; but i have yet to have a dream where i don't. And when you say it isn't advanced, it all depends on who you are talking to. If it works for him, more power to him, if it doesn't work for you it doesn't mean it is a bad technique.

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I find it difficult to consider techniques that are accompanied with claims contradicting axioms of sleep. It's a fault of mine.

Sleep cycles, under normal circumstances, top out at about 90 minutes. Obviously, this number changes depending on how much you've screwed up (or modified) your circadian rhythms. Even so, unless you suffer from sleep deprivation, or follow an atypical sleep schedule, experiencing a 90+ minute REM period is impossible.

Personally, I've experienced lucid dreams that seemed to last for hours, but I could only confirm 60+ minute dreams by keeping notes of the time before, and after, a WILD nap. If sivason offers a similar method of confirmation for his 90+ minute LDs, I'll happily concede this point.

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Originally Posted by sivason

1) REM cycles are longer after you are well rested, that is why most people who wild use the WBTB kind of tricks. At 4 hours you can get decent lucids, but the marathon ones happen to me after 6.5 hours or more of sleep

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A bit of a technicality, but it's the REM itself that makes you feel well rested. They get longer as the night goes on, because that's how the body ensures optimal rest for those on monophasic sleep patterns. Of course, this restricts the maximum length of any given REM period to around 60-70 minutes, even at the latest cycles. Which is nothing to sneeze at, but regularly maximizing time spent in REM requires switching to a (mild) polyphasic schedule.

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Originally Posted by sivason

2) I am not saying all LDs can be that long, but talk to the members who have ten or more years experience and most will say they have had LDs well over 30 minutes long. You get better with practice at making the dreams stay intact and lucid. That is the idea in this thread. What advanced tricks are others using? Lets say an advanced trick will be anything we feel is not very useful to people with less than dozens of LDs experience.

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Subjectively, I feel LDs can stretch on for much longer than an hour minutes, but confirming it objectively is a different matter.

That said, I agree that experience plays a big part in determining what ideas or techniques someone can or cannot apply effectively.

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Originally Posted by sivason

3)This article says the cycles are 90-110 minutes on average. An above average cycle should be possable, maybe 2 hours. I have never heard from any member who seemed honest of LDs breaking the 3 hour mark, but I think at least a few dozen of us have LDs over an hour.

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See above points.

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Originally Posted by sivason

4)Dreaming is possable in nREM cycles, they are not as common and less vivid. With traing your LDs can take place in other sleep cycles. I refer to these as low grade LDs, because they never seem to have as much detail and few DCs. One way to get LDs when you wild is to start a low grade LD within about 20 minutes of SP and use it to create an REM cycle sooner.

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This is a legitimate way to increase LDing length, if conditions are right. And that's a big if.

Also, I don't think SP (sleep paralysis) means what you think it means in this context. But that's another issue entirely. XP

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Originally Posted by sivason

For the sake of this thread let's call advanced any trick that won't be useable by someone with less than a feew dozen LDs, or are just naturals. Please share though, on some techniques you find useful and advanced.

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See. I like definitions. They clear things up.

I'll c/p an explanation of one of my general purpose stabilization methods in a bit.

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Originally Posted by sivason

This is exactly the kind of technique to assure you do have a dream body to play around in. I mention it is advanced, based on you fact you must always be able to find your hands. If Mzzkc can not at will create basic dream hands, this technique may be less useful for him, but hopefully other people will suggest some things that would work if you can't form hands.

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I typically begin dreams with a fully functioning body, but I discard it as needed. As such, I require stabilization techniques that can work in any state of existence, since forming a body isn't always practical.

So it would have been more correct to say that the method is "less than useful to me." Unfortunately, when my prose becomes curt and incomplete when I type on a mobile device.

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

But not all of us can transform into a planet each night ;)

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What was that famous quote again? Something about thinking you can or can't and being right about it?

I dunno. You get the idea.

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Here's as copy/paste from a previous work of mine; it probably needs some editing:

"Beyond the conventional lies the unconventional, or methods that don't follow the standard sensory formula. Most prominent among these are raw shifts of awareness to your surroundings. There are many ways to go about doing this, but it's something that simply needs to be experienced to be understood at all.

Those who practice lucid living and all day awareness are more likely to be familiar with pouring attention into their surroundings. In fact, it's likely these people do this automatically whilst lucid, making traditional stabilization almost unnecessary for them. Still, there are ways to actively force focus on your surroundings. Everyone's method will be different depending on their experience with attention shifting, but I'll explain my method below so you'll have something to work with, at the very least.

I came up with this method in particular after reading a bit of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. The idea comes from the battle/meditation technique the main character is taught early on: to create a flame in his mind's eye and focus on it completely, deflecting all outside thoughts.

I start by taking in the world around me, but not just what I can see; I use everything I can sense, making it my proverbial flame, making it all important, pouring my focus into it so that everything around me is complete and free from my conscious thoughts.

And just like that, the dream becomes stable, whilst I retain my lucidity. What's amazing is that this process doesn't take more than a moment and can be used at almost any time; I've lost count of the number of lucids this little trick has kept me from losing."

I included the build up, as it properly sets the context for the method. Hopefully, it's not too obtrusive.

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Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Even so, unless you suffer from sleep deprivation, or follow an atypical sleep schedule, experiencing a 90+ minute REM period is impossible.


Personally, I've experienced lucid dreams that seemed to last for hours, but I could only confirm 60+ minute dreams by keeping notes of the time before, and after, a WILD nap. If sivason offers a similar method of confirmation for his 90+ minute LDs, I'll happily concede this point.

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Well, you did not say a 90 minute REM was outside the realm of human possiblity. So,,,,

60+minutes vs 90+minutes, who cares? Either claim makes us sound like total LD snobs to people just beginning. I am not concerned with anyone doubting my claims, I just write honestly in a hope some of the info will help someone. It is what I am using to stay focused on LDs to increase my DILDs. I don't have anyway to judge the length of the dreams other than what the clock said when I last checked it and when I check it after awakening. Who knows how long any dream actually lasts.

Thanks for sharing your technique. It definately falls in the advanced category for this thread. Beginners may end up spaced out and loose lucidity if they are not ready for the intensity. I will try this technique soon, just to get an idea of how it feels. It sounds like you can use it 'on the go' which would be handy.