Remaining mindful once becoming lucid

[ThreeCat]

Hi all, Hoping to get some ideas on this from longtime practitioners. I have noticed that I have a tendency to "forget" what is important to my conscious mind during a lucid dream. During the day, I have very serious meditative goals that I would like to accomplish within the dream state, but feel that once I become lucid, all of this washes out. I either try to fly, have sex, summon things, or whatever else one might initially think to do once lucid. Either that, or my goals will resurface near the end of the dream when it is too late. Any thoughts on gaining/maintaining mindfulness within the dream? I am, for the most part, aware of myself--aware that I am dreaming, aware that my body is sleeping in WL, aware that certain things in WL could wake me up--like my wife rousing me, for instance. I don't slip into non-lucidity, but there are times when I react to dream phenomenon as though they were real (like getting angry at a DC family member, for instance, when I should realize they are merely a construct), which I feel is a kind of non-lucidity. I practice shamatha on a daily basis. If there are any "tricks" or practices for cultivating stability, I would be very interested to hear them. Thank you so much. EDIT: Want to make perfectly clear, though, that I mean stability of mental presence, and not stability of dream environment. I realize this could have been placed in General Lucid forum, but since the dream mind seems more whimsical than the waking mind, I view this as a kind of dream control.

[sisyphus]

Two words: prospective memory. I probably can't do the topic justice in a few sentences, so I invite you to search it out. Basically, you want to create triggers and reminders in your mind to execute in the future. It's an innate function of your brain and you use it every day ("When I get home, I will check the mail"). You can also strengthen it with practice (use it more in waking life to improve in dreaming). And you can chain the triggers to form a complex plan ("When I become lucid, I will do my stabilization routine. After my stab routine, I will recall my goal task. When I recall my task, I will teleport to the scene. etc, etc.") Your triggers and plan can be more open-ended then that, but you get the idea. That's the essence of what we call habits. I don't think you need to focus on the mindfulness aspect too much. Just need to trigger your consciousness toward some planned, deliberate action instead of aimless re-action. After that, more subtle mental faculties like mindfulness will follow. Prospective memory is also the cornerstone of MILD. So if you happen to do MILD, you will reinforce this skill very quickly.

[ThreeCat]

Thank you so much for the response. I actually practice MILD on most nights before bed, and after every REM cycle; it happens to be one of the few techniques that reliably gets me lucid. I'm currently at the point where MILD works when I know it's going to work. Just need to make this every night! But I start moving forward tonight, and chaining some commands will probably produce excellent results. I like that idea very much. Are you a MILD practitioner as well?

[sisyphus]

I started with MILD years ago. I don't do it as intently anymore but it's still the basis of all my LD understanding. The mantras used in MILD are essentially prospective memory trigger statements. The original from Stephen LaBerge: "The next time I am dreaming, I will remember to recognize that I am dreaming." And an all-purpose template for dreamsigns: "The next time I see [my dreamsign], I will do [my favorite RC]." That's the induction part. Then chain that with: "The next time I become lucid, I will do [my goal task]". That sets up clarity and control. If you can really ingrain those two prospective memory triggers, you'll see a good increase in quantity and quality of LDs with MILD.

[ThreeCat]

This is an excellent idea, sisyphus. I like the name, btw--are you a fan of Camus? When you say chain, do you mean to say all of these statements at one go? Or do you wait until the first part of MILD--induction of lucidity--itself becomes a habit before chaining? Also, concerning your template, could I say something like, "The next time I see something odd, I'll do a nose plug"? Is that specific enough?

[Sensei]

Remaining mindful? Are you losing mindfulness when you become lucid? If so you should be repeating that it is a dream over and over. If you mean becoming mindful in a dream, then I would recommend slowing down. Each time that you do a RC, slow down, think. Each time that you visualize, imagine slowing down and thinking. When you are about to do anything mindlessly, slow down and think. Slow down. This doesn't mean doing things slower, it is a higher awareness doing the same thing. Honestly you just need more awareness, but even with more awareness, you need to think before doing things. Often in my dreams I used to find myself doing before thinking, now I slow down and think about goals at the beginning of almost all LDs.

[ThreeCat]

Thank you, Sensei. I do need more awareness, and I think that may be the only way--working from here to there, so to speak, and slowing down. I am practicing this little bit at a time. More of recognizing that I am not aware, and then coming back to awareness. Do you have a daily anchor for awareness? I have experimented with keeping my awareness on my core and my third eye, and when I do this, I feel more aware. However, doing this throughout the day is challenging. I mean in particular losing mindfulness once becoming lucid--getting pulled from one distraction to the next. Not losing lucidity--I know I am dreaming, and plan to get back to business very soon, but there is this fun thing to do over here, and a fun thing to do over here, and so forth. Just getting pulled along as opposed to remaining in control of myself. I am interested in how you remain aware throughout the day--any tips?

[sisyphus]

Yes, the name is more inspired by the modern Camus interpretation than the ancient one. Each trigger is separate, so you can practice them separately and their effectiveness may develop separately. In fact, you can have unconnected triggers for isolated situations ("When the dream is destabilizing, I will remain still and attempt to DEILD"). They become connected because the events happen in sequence, not because you practice them together or in which order you recite them. In other words, you form the chain by choosing events that happen in sequence. But once you've chosen the events, you can focus on the "links" on the chain individually. Naturally, it makes sense to emphasize the first trigger (induction) because the rest depend on it. But I think it's fine to start adding more even as you're ingraining the first. As you proceed, you might discover "gaps" in the chain which you can work to adjust or fill in. To me, the triggers are often just a firm statement to remind myself of something, stated just once or a few times, not necessarily a mantra to be repeated endlessly. Some are more like a checklist. Some are phrased as a question, to cue a response ("What is my goal for tonight? Fly to the moon"). I think the induction trigger is the only one I repeat like a mantra ("The next time I am dreaming, I want to remember to recognize that I am dreaming"). Thinking back on my own practice, sometimes I would recite things in order, sometimes in reverse order, and sometimes in no particular order. Reciting things in reverse order might help when you have some end goal you want to work backwards from. Or reserve order might help so that the the earliest events are recall last, meaning they are more recent and salient in your mind. To your second question, the effectiveness of a trigger depends on the strength of memory association with the trigger condition. And you can roughly estimate the strength of a memory association with the frequency of recurrence in your dreams. That's why, when looking for dreamsigns, you look for the things that appear most frequently in your dreams. "The next time I see something odd..." seems a bit too inspecific to me. But if you frequently find yourself in a dream thinking "Hmm, that's odd" then it might be effective. You want to be very very particular with the words you choose so that the memory association is as strong as possible. In that example, if you would naturally choose the word "strange" instead of "odd," that could make a big difference. A better example: Suppose seeing your mother is a dreamsign. But in your thoughts and words, you might usually call her "Mom." In that case, "The next time I see Mom..." is stronger than "The next time I see my mother..." because it resonates with your personal memories and habits. That might have been long winded. Shorter version: Triggers are reminders. They are most effective when they are strongly associated with your personal memory. If the events chain together, you can build more complex and reliable habits, but they can be useful in isolation too. They don't all have to be mantras. Write them all down as a checklist and recite them like that. Maybe one checklist for before bed, another checklist for MILD, another for WILD, etc. Choose a few of the more important items on each checklist to repeat several times for emphasis. Choose just one or two to use as mantras to repeat until you fall asleep. Analyze, adjust, and refine as each experience adds new information.

[Sensei]

Thank you, Sensei. I do need more awareness, and I think that may be the only way--working from here to there, so to speak, and slowing down. I am practicing this little bit at a time. More of recognizing that I am not aware, and then coming back to awareness. Do you have a daily anchor for awareness? I have experimented with keeping my awareness on my core and my third eye, and when I do this, I feel more aware. However, doing this throughout the day is challenging. I mean in particular losing mindfulness once becoming lucid--getting pulled from one distraction to the next. Not losing lucidity--I know I am dreaming, and plan to get back to business very soon, but there is this fun thing to do over here, and a fun thing to do over here, and so forth. Just getting pulled along as opposed to remaining in control of myself. I am interested in how you remain aware throughout the day--any tips? mostly, I would recommend working on dream recall. Two main types of awareness: General dream awareness amount of yourself in the dream. You know the difference between a dream where you are "there" vs "kinda drunk". The more "there" you are, the more you make the decisions. Even if you are a space pirate, you are making the decisions. State awareness This is the amount of aware you are of the state of dream of waking. The more you spend time thinking about dreams, or the more licked you have, you will raise your state awareness. If you are missing GDA, you will always forget goals and you will have "fake lucids" (which are still lucids). If you are missing state awareness, you will have really awesome epic dreams, but not become lucid. In terms of keeping your excitement up, make sure to work more on GDA, it will result inbetter lucids. The number one thing to keep up is sleep schedule. I have written a thread in how to maximize both. http://www.dreamviews.com/dream-sign...m-journal.html

[ThreeCat]

Thank you so much, guys. I managed to keep my head this morning--became lucid when I realized one of my good friends was in a class I teach--sort of gave things away! I then stopped, because I became very excited, and remembered your words, sisyphus! I stabilized the dream. I then remembered I was out to accomplish some tasks, and ended up remembering a place I had wanted to visit from a previous dream. I enlisted the help of a DC to get there. Really appreciate the assistance! EDIT: Didn't actually manage to get to the hidden place--dream ended before that could happen. However, felt like a victory to get a DC's help, as I have never before gotten assistance like that!

[Sensei]

Thank you so much, guys. I managed to keep my head this morning--became lucid when I realized one of my good friends was in a class I teach--sort of gave things away! I then stopped, because I became very excited, and remembered your words, sisyphus! I stabilized the dream. I then remembered I was out to accomplish some tasks, and ended up remembering a place I had wanted to visit from a previous dream. I enlisted the help of a DC to get there. Really appreciate the assistance! EDIT: Didn't actually manage to get to the hidden place--dream ended before that could happen. However, felt like a victory to get a DC's help, as I have never before gotten assistance like that! Did the DC actually help? Sometimes they say that they will help and don't. Dream Characters are jerks at times.

[ThreeCat]

Did the DC actually help? Sometimes they say that they will help and don't. Dream Characters are jerks at times. I think so. I knew that the room was on the 4th floor of this building. I talked to one DC and she refused to help me (she is my friend in WL, lol). I then found another DC I do not know in WL and explained to him my situation. He said he did not mind helping me--he knew where the room was and had a key to unlock 4th floor. So we went up there and had a fun conversation on the way. He made a funny joke, too! We did not get to the secret room, though. I feel like something really important was in there! What I wonder is whether I really remember this info from a previous dream, or if I got caught up in dream logic/dream story without realizing it. What do you guys think?