Thread: Instant REM

No that would be defying the way your brain is built. What your saying is we would be able to sleep like cats which is impossible.

You can enter a REM-like state when you meditate. That's what I heard. Maybe we could expand on that.

You can have dreams in NREM, they are just normally less vivid. If you get your vividness up in dreams (by increasing recall), it should be possible. LDDing might also interest you.

http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...-tutorial.html

It is a little different than LDing, but it is a good fun thing.

^^ Brandonboss makea a good point, I think.

The focus should be on dreaming, not getting to REM. Since it is possible to LD during NREM -- and even when awake, apparently -- it may be more important to prepare yourself to be lucid, period, rather than to be lucid during REM.

That said, keep in mind, Extremador, that if you attempt to become lucid very late in your sleep cycle, you will likely be in REM when you go to sleep. There is no reason you can't get close to REM with a bit of good timing.

I tend to believe that we are dreaming all the time - whether in REM, or otherwise asleep, or awake.

The trick, as I see it, is not dreaming as such, but focusing on the dream, to the exclusion of everything coming in through the physical senses.

My experience with lucid dream-endings is that the physical world "overpowers" the dream world. The dream is actually still there, but it fades into oblivion, as the physical senses start to fire up.

In other words: concentration on the inner senses, and exclusion of the outer senses, must be the target.

Well, that's how I see it, anyway.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

I tend to believe that we are dreaming all the time - whether in REM, or otherwise asleep, or awake.

The trick, as I see it, is not dreaming as such, but focusing on the dream, to the exclusion of everything coming in through the physical senses.

My experience with lucid dream-endings is that the physical world "overpowers" the dream world. The dream is actually still there, but it fades into oblivion, as the physical senses start to fire up.

In other words: concentration on the inner senses, and exclusion of the outer senses, must be the target.

Well, that's how I see it, anyway.

I really like how you look at it in that way, rather inspiring I must say.

Dreams are usually more vivid in REM, but like everyone else says, with some training it can be possible to have vivid dreams in NREM. For one i have experienced short vivid dream-like moments during NREM numerous times when my nap timing isn"t the best and i have to be aware through NREM in my WILD practice.

I just noticed that this thread seems to be saying something fairly important that is not said enough: Dreams do not occur exclusively in REM.

That dreams certainly occur most often during REM, and that our classic idea of a non-lucid dream is one that occurs during REM, do not seem reason enough to ignore the rest of the places they occur, or potentially can occur. But it seems that that is what's happening: both science and the LD community have combined REM and dreams into an inseparable event.

I could be wrong on the science side; there may be lots of NREM dream research going on about which I don't know (Zoth? You lurking out there?). But when skimming these forums it seems clear that REM = Dream is the norm. Also, all the aids are focused on REM, as are the techniques. All this makes sense, I suppose, since during REM is unequivocally the best time for attempting LD's. But still, it would be nice if we could at least have in our collective heads that dreams do not necessarily require REM.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

I tend to believe that we are dreaming all the time - whether in REM, or otherwise asleep, or awake.

The trick, as I see it, is not dreaming as such, but focusing on the dream, to the exclusion of everything coming in through the physical senses.

My experience with lucid dream-endings is that the physical world "overpowers" the dream world. The dream is actually still there, but it fades into oblivion, as the physical senses start to fire up.

In other words: concentration on the inner senses, and exclusion of the outer senses, must be the target.

Well, that's how I see it, anyway.

I kinda look at it this way as well, which is why I said "what we call here [physical life]"

That's why I'm even really thinking about being able to go down to this stage of full-on dreaming "outside" of now.

And Sageous, you're right about that. I just used REM because it seems like it would give the best experience to one who, seconds after laying down, will experience paralysis and go right into delta waves.

Originally Posted by Sageous

... But it seems that that is what's happening: both science and the LD community have combined REM and dreams into an inseparable event.

I could be wrong on the science side; there may be lots of NREM dream research going on about which I don't know.

A quick Google on "dreaming during NREM" gives just short of 21000 hits, so the concept does have some traction.

One of the hits is a scientific paper "Dreaming During Non-rapid Eye Movement Sleep in the Absence of Prior Rapid Eye Movement Sleep", in which it is found that there is dreaming going on during NREM, but it is less vivid, less remarkable, less frequent, and less pleasant than dreams obtained during REM.

Also, the authors found that NREM sleep in the later part of the night is different from NREM in the earlier part, and that dreams are more likely in the later NREM periods than during the earlier ones.

Originally Posted by Voldmer

A quick Google on "dreaming during NREM" gives just short of 21000 hits, so the concept does have some traction.

For what it's worth, a quick Google on "dreaming during REM" yielded 929,000 hits, which I think shows both the scale of Google, and that REM is still very much the priority. Plus, given the paucity of dream research in the scientific community in general, if REM itself "only" garners under a million hits, then 21,000 implies extremely minimal traction. And yes, I do know how to use search engines... I shouted out to Zoth because he is very much in direct tune with the research.

One of the hits is a scientific paper "Dreaming During Non-rapid Eye Movement Sleep in the Absence of Prior Rapid Eye Movement Sleep", in which it is found that there is dreaming going on during NREM, but it is less vivid, less remarkable, less frequent, and less pleasant than dreams obtained during REM.

Also, the authors found that NREM sleep in the later part of the night is different from NREM in the earlier part, and that dreams are more likely in the later NREM periods than during the earlier ones.

So there is at least some work going on, that's good; thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by Sageous

And yes, I do know how to use search engines... I shouted out to Zoth because he is very much in direct tune with the research.

I wasn't patronizing you, although in hindsight I can see how my post unfortunately may have come across rather condescendingly.

My point was simply that dreaming during NREM is a well-known concept. Although apparently still somewhat controversial in certain parts of the dream-research community.

Limiting the search to: +"dreaming during NREM" +"paper" gives a couple of pages of hits, and there appears to be heavy academic representation amongst them. (Also some pdf downloads).

Originally Posted by Sageous

So there is at least some work going on, that's good; thanks for sharing.

My pleasure.

Edit: When searching in Google just now, the post from earlier in the thread, where the paper was first mentioned, was already included. I'm not sure whether to be happy about Googles swiftness, or scared ...

Instant NREM would be pretty nice, too, at least to initiate a dream and then going into REM.

Originally Posted by Extremador

Instant NREM would be pretty nice, too, at least to initiate a dream and then going into REM.

Instant NREM is easy, just close your eyes.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Instant NREM is easy, just close your eyes.

Yeah not as easy to trigger delta waves, however.

^^ It might be easier than you think.

Delta waves occur during the deeper periods of NREM sleep. Though you can be lucid during those periods (I even started a thread about it, once), I'm not sure that is what you are looking for. On the other hand the waves associated with normal dreaming, which I think are called theta waves, are much closer to brain waves emitted during waking life and I believe are regularly created during experiences like meditation.

So the brain waves of REM might be right there waiting for you!

Great thread guys!

I dont think quite that much i think if you did a but of meditation and a few other exercises that you could expand it a little bit, but not full on REM sleep the second you pass out.

Originally Posted by learndreaming

I dont think quite that much i think if you did a but of meditation and a few other exercises that you could expand it a little bit, but not full on REM sleep the second you pass out.

What if you make yourself pass out by holding your breath or pinching the artery in your neck or whatever?

Originally Posted by Extremador

What if you make yourself pass out by holding your breath or pinching the artery in your neck or whatever?

I don't think that you can make yourself pass out from holding breath (I have held my breath as long as I possibly can with no thought of breathing, but I will breathe after a time wanted or not wanted 3:30) unless you are young/underdeveloped/mental issues. Also doing either of these things cuts off oxygen to the brain, which is bad for your brain and can hurt you. Also cutting off your brains oxygen supply stops it from working properly which means you lose consciousness, so it would be difficult to go to REM there. I did see on a TOTY that someone went straight to REM (seemingly) from anesthesia.

From anesthesia? Interesting...

Could one be hypnotized into falling asleep? I'm thinking something like, "You are now falling asleep, and as your vision darkens and you see hypnagogic imagery, your eyes are rapidly moving and you are entering the dream world" or something.

There has got to be some way to skip the sleep levels and go straight to the cookie jar. Right?

Originally Posted by BrandonBoss

someone went straight to REM (seemingly) from anesthesia.

Strange. But I remember when, as a lad, the dentist gave me a gas to knock me out for tooth extraction twice and on both occasions I had the most vivid dreams I ever had in my life. Would those be REM dreams or something else?

I don't know but perhaps polyphasic sleep might interest you. You can enter REM much faster, and they say it´s easier to lucid dream.

I don´t know if it´s safe in the long run !!!

I think you guys might be overlooking a major point here:

Even if you go straight to REM, you still have to be able to initiate a lucid dream. REM does not equal LD, by any measure. Indeed, Extremador's "some way" already exists: the whole reason you attempt WILD's late in the sleep cycle is because you very likely will go straight to REM, as REM stages are very close together after five or six hours of sleep.

In other words, Extremador, there already is some way: by doing a simple WBTB after several hours' sleep, you effectively have skipped sleep levels and very likely will be going straight to the cookie jar. But you still must be able to twist that jar open.