Thread: Lucid Dreaming Ethics and Rules

This should be stickied, or be a tutorial.

Originally posted by Razorback
This should be stickied, or be a tutorial.

yes, if everyone were to agree, but I doubt whether that will happen.

I think that's a good point. I actually talked with Lucius about this, and he mentioned how keeping his morals was a catalyst to lucid dream fluently. Because I guess, the way we maintain ourselves in dreams reflect our true character inside.

I often thought the exact same thing, if my conscience or dreaming mind worked to keep me off limits if I wanted to use the dreams for selfish reasons, especially sexual ones. I even had a personal dilemma, since it was so tempting to pursue Lucid Dreams for sex and indulgence, but my conscience would always fight back (both waking and sleeping), so I was in a tug of war between my primal desires and my ethical self-image. I hated the idea that I may be missing out.

But it's enlightened me in the sense to find out what I'm really comfortable with, and narrows down the aspects of my personality that used to be vague.

Originally posted by AirRick101
I think that's a good point. I actually talked with Lucius about this, and he mentioned how keeping his morals was a catalyst to lucid dream fluently. Because I guess, the way we maintain ourselves in dreams reflect our true character inside.

I often thought the exact same thing, if my conscience or dreaming mind worked to keep me off limits if I wanted to use the dreams for selfish reasons, especially sexual ones. I even had a personal dilemma, since it was so tempting to pursue Lucid Dreams for sex and indulgence, but my conscience would always fight back (both waking and sleeping), so I was in a tug of war between my primal desires and my ethical self-image. I hated the idea that I may be missing out.

But it's enlightened me in the sense to find out what I'm really comfortable with, and narrows down the aspects of my personality that used to be vague.

I was thinking more in terms of the offense given to the Higher Mind by using an indiscriminate Dream Control to wipe out all of the Higher Mind's Creative Dream Influences. I had not thought much about Dream Sex because, lucid or not, the primitive impulse of dreamers tends to propel them toward sex in any case. But, now that you mention it, in ordinary dreaming, a dreamer may not be presented with the opportunity to have sex, but once becoming lucid, may actually summon up sexual partners. It may be more of a problem then I had anticipated. I suppose when you reach my age, one encounters a second innocense, and one becomes naive all over again.

But, yes, if one were to use Lucid Dreaming correctly, then one would use Lucidity in order to refrain from having sex. Sex only wakes a dreamer up. Now, there is nothing wrong with female companionship in a dream. I often have female companions in my dreams. I flirt with them and do my best to charm them, and in the course of a dream they are good listeners, and they provide a Voice for the Higher Mind... if the Dream itself has anything to say, to clarify any incorrect thinking on my part, as I talk, talk, talk, then the Dream Higher Mind can use one of these lady characters as its Mouth Piece of Wisdom. We walk hand in hand, or with my arm around them. It is all quite coozy, and I have to admit that I enjoy the company. But I also realize that the sex act would bring it all slamming down in an instant. It is good to know how far one can go, and go no farther.

When I lucid dream, which isn't that often now that it's not summer, I usually tend to stay passive, only taking control if necessary. That being said, every now and again I may want to "check things off the LD checklist".

Would it be best to apologize for being mean to the subconscious, or should I maybe ask for permission to take control of a dream and then lead.

I didn't read the entire post but I think I understand what this is about, after all 'dreaming ethics' is something I have considered in the past, like AirRick said

Let me tell you all what I've come to think on it:

I don't really think there is a preset set of rules when it comes down to 'dreaming ethics'. What's good for the first person it bad for the other. One person has the need to be confronted in strong, fierce way. Other's need gentle comforting and talk to solve a personal problem. We are all different invidiuals.

However, we are humans and we have hearts. When we constantly use our dreams (ourselves) for selfish goals and manipulation of a world (our own world) this might disturb us. Just as it might in real life.
My definition of evil, negative, bad etc is a very practical one. Anything that hurts you, disturbs you, messes with you etc (or others). Its never evil because god or some other being says it is (even though he is not logically bothered). So in theory, anything can be good or evil.

I think we all have to find a proper balance. I honestly believe that after we use our dreams for pure fun purposes, the self exploration and learning will come naturally at some point. And even then we can still use our dreams for fun and fantasy Why not.

I above all think that our dreams should be positive experiences. This could mean fun, or learning experiences all the same.

However, I do believe that a peaceful, good natured mind and less controling helps you maintain lucidity But that's a different story. ^_~

Well, i agree with Ethics to a certain extent, in that i don't like dreaming about anything that makes me feel guilty!
Last night was a case in point...i dreamed of someone i was 'involved' with, last year, i dreamed they'd sent me pictures of their nephew, but the pictures weren't the symbolic thing. The symbolic thing was the subject line of the email, which read 'do you remember?'
Meaning, do i remember how good it was before we started fighting. I woke up, and indeed i did remember. And i hated myself for it, being as i'm now with someone else...
Sometimes, i wish we didn't have to dream about things that make us feel emotions we'd rather not...

I'm all for using ethics and self control in my dreams. The problem arises when we try to figure out what "everyones" ethics should be. I agree with Lucius, we are all different people traveling down different paths. And ethics has quite alot to do with perception. Ethics can change according to culture, religion, upbringing, etc... Not to mention that sometimes we learn more from the things we do wrong. The dream world is certainly an amazing place that has alot to teach us. My only hope is that each person can find what they need there. Everyone have a great day and I'll catch you on the flip side!

Originally posted by DistantClone
When I lucid dream, which isn't that often now that it's not summer, I usually tend to stay passive, only taking control if necessary. That being said, every now and again I may want to \"check things off the LD checklist\". *

Would it be best to apologize for being mean to the subconscious, or should I maybe ask for permission to take control of a dream and then lead.

No, .... I would say that you are already operating within optimum territory. You use Control within moderation, when it seems necessary. My objection is with people who see Control as the entire purpose and reason for Lucidity.

You may know from your experience whether the Subconscious Mind has been offended with you. As I pointed out in my leading essay, we know that the Subconscious Mind opposes Lucid Over-Control because it militates against it, opposes it, and acts to defy and obstruct the Dreamer. In your case, you may find that your Subconscious Mind has had no problem with you.

Also, you also have the virtue of having a Lucid Dream Checklist. The formulation of a Lucid Dream Checklist gives the Subconscious Mind some insight into your Future Plans, and so the Facility of Mind that creates your Dreams will have a chance to provide what it already knows you want, or some compromise thereof, that will mitigate the chance that you would destroy valid Dream Content with some hideous Over-Control. A Lucid Dreaming Checklist is like notice given to the Subconscious Mind. If one goes too far in a Lucid Dreaming Checklist, often one will have dreams that indicate that we should adjust our direction or focus. It IS possible to work with our Subconscious Mind. Antagonism is not as necessary as many Lucid Dreamers tend to dictate to the Newbies -- methods of mental subversion and conflict.

So, yes, you seem to have a very good attitude. Perhaps you could share some of your dreams that may be backing up some of these premises I have been laying out.

Originally posted by Lucius
I didn't read the entire post but I think I understand what this is about, after all 'dreaming ethics' is something I have considered in the past, like AirRick said *

Let me tell you all what I've come to think on it:

I don't really think there is a preset set of rules when it comes down to 'dreaming ethics'. What's good for the first person it bad for the other. One person has the need to be confronted in strong, fierce way. Other's need gentle comforting and talk to solve a personal problem. We are all different invidiuals.

However, we are humans and we have hearts. When we constantly use our dreams (ourselves) for selfish goals and manipulation of a world (our own world) this might disturb us. Just as it might in real life. *
My definition of evil, negative, bad etc is a very practical one. Anything that hurts you, disturbs you, messes with you etc (or others). Its never evil because god or some other being says it is (even though he is not logically bothered). So in theory, anything can be good or evil. *

I think we all have to find a proper balance. I honestly believe that after we use our dreams for pure fun purposes, the self exploration and learning will come naturally at some point. And even then we can still use our dreams for fun and fantasy Why not. *

I above all think that our dreams should be positive experiences. This could mean fun, or learning experiences all the same. *

However, I do believe that a peaceful, good natured mind and less controling helps you maintain lucidity But that's a different story. ^_~

Please, ... while we are discussing situational ethics... never tell an author that you did not read his whole book or essay. Believe me, authors never ask, always expecting the worst -- that their books lay about half read and collecting dust. But it seems gratuitious to verify their anxiety by telling them that you could not read a full page. It is a secret that you might well have kept.

Now, regarding your comments which come down to the idea that everything will work out in the end; that all this Control is just in good fun. This seems to be what you Hope and not what you know. What we KNOW is that the Subconscious Mind actively opposes and attempts to obstruct Lucid Over-Control. We have heard from dreamers who, after having attained Lucid Mastery, suddenly report the total loss of 'Dream Priveleges'. So, what we know is that the Subconscious Mind does not share your hopes and views that wholesale attacks and predations against Dream Content and the Subconscious Mind, because it is all in good fun, is not really a problem.

For some people rape is fun. Homicide is fun for certain serial killers. What kind of a Culture do we live in when people brush aside ethical considerations for the sake of fun.

Perhaps I misnamed my leading Essay here. The suggestion of "Ethics" is bringing out in nearly everybody this FEELING for moral right and wrong within the confines of society. I am hearing alot about "I AM NOT HURTING ANYBODY, SO WHAT IS THE HARM".

I suppose what I was thinking of the harm being done to the Subconscious Mind and the Collective Consciousness -- all those Mechanisms behind Dream Content that act to oppose Lucidity in order to defend against Lucid Overcontrol. Where I see CONFLICT I came to believe that I was witnessing basically an Ethical Problem.

But I should have anticipated this flood of warm fuzzy misunderstandings... of people who could see Ethical Discussions only in terms of sunday school morality or in legal terms.

So, anyway, maybe we should focus on my ideas here as being intended help us all understand that when we do things which our Subconscious Mind actively opposes, that it must be because it feels that some harm is being done to it. In that regard, we should consider what we can do in order to cease our offenses, and how we can do Lucid Dreaming without doing damage to our relations to our own Subconscious Mind and Collective Consciousness.

Originally posted by irishcream
Well, i agree with Ethics to a certain extent, in that i don't like dreaming about anything that makes me feel guilty!
Last night was a case in point...i dreamed of someone i was 'involved' with, last year, i dreamed they'd sent me pictures of their nephew, but the pictures weren't the symbolic thing. *The symbolic thing was the subject line of the email, which read 'do you remember?'
Meaning, do i remember how good it was before we started fighting. *I woke up, and indeed i did remember. *And i hated myself for it, being as i'm now with someone else...
Sometimes, i wish we didn't have to dream about things that make us feel emotions we'd rather not...

Hi Irish,

Hmmmmm.

You are now with someone else. But you do know what they say about 'Rebound Relationships". Anybody who gets involved with somebody who has just broken off a Major Relationship should realize he is just catching you on the Rebound. These things hardly ever last. I'm sure he will not take it personally if you tell him that you are glad for the comfort you received when you were so vulnerable, but now, that you are recovered and are no longer among the walking wounded and the battle-traumatized, you think you should move on.... or back to the old boyfriend whom you seem to miss.

Speaking of remembering... do you remember why you broke up in the first place. Who did what to whom.... just think about it. Was it important, and if not, can the damage be undone. Your dream would suggest the possibility of a rapprochement.

Originally posted by dreamphoenix
I'm all for using ethics and self control in my dreams. *The problem arises when we try to figure out what \"everyones\" ethics should be. *I agree with Lucius, we are all different people traveling down different paths. And ethics has quite alot to do with perception. Ethics can change according to culture, religion, upbringing, etc... *Not to mention that sometimes we learn more from the things we do wrong. *The dream world is certainly an amazing place that has alot to teach us. My only hope is that each person can find what they need there. *Everyone have a great day and I'll catch you on the flip side!

So... like Lucius... you didn't read the lead essay either.

The Point is that Lucid Over Control is interpreted by the Subconscious Mind as an Attack upon its integrity and higher purposes. We know this because the Subconscious Mind repeatedly attempts to defend itself against Lucid Over Control. Most of our "Techniques" are more or less Battle Strategies for Defeating the Subconscious Mind. And very few of us have been able to view this War we are conducting in Ethical Terms. Anyway, not you. What are you putting forth but some argument for Moral Relativism -- that Morality is a private affair that only need to involve each person's consciense... or lack of conscience. Indeed, if we did not already have an overly permissive and degenerate Society, you could have been in the intellectual avante guarde for getting us there. I particularly find striking your comment that it is so instructive to do wrong. No remorse. You simply find Evil to be a Learning Experience. Yes, there is a certain truth there, but with essentially Good People what is learned by committing Wrong is that one must carry about a load of painful remorse and guilt for a lifetime, and maybe beyond that. But perhaps you are Avante Guarde enough to be beyond all that -- that something becomes wrong only when it has suddenly become inconvenient... when you get caught. You have no Moral View of Life, but only cut through it all trying to find the path of least resistance. But isn't that approximately the same amoralism practiced by any worm.

I don't appreciate your "opinion" leo. Perhaps you should really listen to what people say before you judge them and drag their names in the mud. But I forgive you!

Originally posted by dreamphoenix
I don't appreciate your \"opinion\" leo. Perhaps you should really listen to what people say before you judge them and drag their names in the mud. But I forgive you!

I did listen. You were apparently able to empty your entire mind in something less than fifty words. Maybe you would be understood better if you could manage to express yourself more fully and completely. But I read what you wrote and commented appropriately upon it. I'm sorry that you do not 'approciate' your grade.

I'm sure that if you ever grow older and wiser then you will someday agree with me and regret that you ever thought as you do now, and then you will not be worried about forgiving me, but forgiving yourself.

About Leo's comments: I really don't have a checklist, but if a problem is bothering me...I'll ask my subconscious what to do about it, and in a couple nights it usually gets back to me. I have at least two specific examples in mind, I'll dig out of my DJ later.

I've just come to a conclusion...let me spill it out. Here's a couple of things to consider:[list]Social status: I really think we are almost at the bottom of the spiral, as a society we've almost retrogressed from third dimension back to second.[*]To ascend, ultimately to the eight dimension, one needs to be able to show pure intentions, good choices, no negative thoughts.[*]Most think that dreams are ungoverned, no one's watching, what you do in dreams does not count, so one should fulfill themself.[list]. People feel held back, and see dreams as a gateway into unrestricted freedom that "they've earned". The immediate line of defense is the subconscious mind, there to monitor and ensure you behave.

Now think about it...what would be the best way to periodically measure if someone has positive thoughts? Should one be constrained, told what not to do, or should one be let loose and have their actions speak for themself?

What is a dream? It is a regular, temporary trial in a higher dimension. You are in a perfect test environment to show your motives. You are without your physical body, which is unnecessary. You are being reduced to your minimum, truer self. Taking this opportunity and trying to undermine and overthrow their subconscious mind is a shame. It is there to encourage positive behavior. Yet people want to circumvent this so they can have more power, more freedom, and enable themself appease their own greedy agenda.

But at the same time, I think excessive elaboration and essay-format expression in every opinion even has its limits, coming off as pretentious and snotty, but not to say that you are, Leo, I wouldn't know. Not for the author's sake, but for readers so they would have less chance of failing to listen.

I once really identified with Lucius' opinion, believing that all morals are relative, and maybe they are. But I've encountered enough situations where I wish not to sympathize with the offender or criminal. The majority of people don't find rape and murder fun (due to a healthy respect for the golden rule), and our overall moral agreements are what we actually label "absolute" morals, and I sure myself would not deviate from those absolute morals, unless I'm vulnerable enough to succumb to those diabolical urges.

I often get confused as to whether morals are socially conditioned or absolutely inspired by God in the Bible. Both have holes in their plots. But even if they are merely passed down, people just like us discovered what morals must be enforced and realized to better control situational patterns in human conflict in later generations. Morals cannot be forced fed, only learned from within. (as is everything, really)

I believe we have an inherit sense of interconnectedness, and do not really want to hurt another, if not overwhelmed with selfish issues of vengeance. But that too is moral, the sense of justice, we just don't all know how to balance it out.

I myself have a sturdy and stubborn conscience that does not easily budge to reason. I know, guilt is one of my prevailant emotions. But yet it still perplexes me how others can do certain offenses and feel no remorse, pornography or anything sexual at all being the most controversial. People say it doesn't hurt anyone, yet I know somewhere in me that that is not enough to make it ok to do. I've tested their theory, seeing if "getting away with it" is enough, but no, it still remains a stain in my conscience that remains extremely discouraging.

But addressing the source of our dreams as the "dreaming mind" is putting a given into the equation that not everyone agrees with. To address what you currently are automatically forces us to discuss something supernatural. It's not that I disagree. I know people who have extreme control over dreams and do everything they want, and they are not revoked of certain privileges. Does this mean the dreaming mind doesn't pick on them as much?

Ok, I'm feeling kind of stupid now because I'm elaborating myself, but I usually do not, because people in general dislike to read much, which is why I rarely do it. Just a little more...

I somewhat agree that our so-called techniques are "battle strategies" for outsmarting the dreaming mind. I can tell they are superficial methods, but it's all we seem to have at our disposal now. The word technique itself implies a cold series and patterns of action to reach a certain goal. But even so, they are not just for battling, but are aimed at opening up our awareness to our dreaming mind cuz we don't know what's going on. The fact that our society does not prize lucid dreaming enough makes us lose sight of influencing our dreams.

Originally posted by Leo Volont


I did listen. *You were apparently able to empty your entire mind in something less than fifty words. *Maybe you would be understood better if you could manage to express yourself more fully and completely. *But I read what you wrote and commented appropriately upon it. *I'm sorry that you do not 'approciate' your grade. *

I'm sure that if you ever grow older and wiser then you will someday agree with me and regret that you ever thought as you do now, and then you will not be worried about forgiving me, but forgiving yourself.

Why should you feel the need to "grade" someone elses opinion leo. And its quite mean to say someone tried to "empty their entire mind" on a dream views forum post. Why is it that you always think you have the one true correct answer. In my experience we all have a long way to go before we can judge each other. Maybe with a little less negativity in your life (just my opinion by the way) you wouldn't feel the need to put everyone else down so often. Just a thought! But since you have the upper hand in arguing because of your huge intelect and vocabulary, I wont be arguing with you anymore on this post. God Bless!

Originally posted by DistantClone
About Leo's comments: I really don't have a checklist, but if a problem is bothering me...I'll ask my subconscious what to do about it, and in a couple nights it usually gets back to me. I have at least two specific examples in mind, I'll dig out of my DJ later.

I've just come to a conclusion...let me spill it out. Here's a couple of things to consider:[list]Social status: I really think we are almost at the bottom of the spiral, as a society we've almost retrogressed from third dimension back to second.[*]To ascend, ultimately to the eight dimension, one needs to be able to show pure intentions, good choices, no negative thoughts.[*]Most think that dreams are ungoverned, no one's watching, what you do in dreams does not count, so one should fulfill themself.[list]. People feel held back, and see dreams as a gateway into unrestricted freedom that \"they've earned\". The immediate line of defense is the subconscious mind, there to monitor and ensure you behave. *

Now think about it...what would be the best way to periodically measure if someone has positive thoughts? Should one be constrained, told what not to do, or should one be let loose and have their actions speak for themself? *

What is a dream? It is a regular, temporary trial in a higher dimension. You are in a perfect test environment to show your motives. You are without your physical body, which is unnecessary. You are being reduced to your minimum, truer self. Taking this opportunity and trying to undermine and overthrow their subconscious mind is a shame. It is there to encourage positive behavior. Yet people want to circumvent this so they can have more power, more freedom, and enable themself appease their own greedy agenda.

Pretty good essay!

Originally posted by AirRick101
*But even if they are merely passed down, people just like us discovered what morals must be enforced and realized to better control situational patterns in human conflict in later generations. *Morals cannot be forced fed, only learned from within. (as is everything, really)

Actually morals can be force fed. History shows that a Barbarian People can be largely 'civilized' given 3 steady generations of strict enforcement to rule. Apparently that is enough to get a 'people' used to tolerating Civilized Institutions. More generations of Civilization begin to fixe Civilization genetically -- the genetic stock that thrives most with Civilization stand out as evolutionary successes, while those who don't are presumably hanged before they are allowed to breed.

One can see Civilized Peoples now in China. Some in Japan. In Latin Europe we have people getting used to Civilization, and can see the contrast between them and the Barbaric Teutonic Tribes, Angels, Norsemen, Slavs, that is all the Peoples that had no benefit of Roman or Hellenic Civilizing influences. And then in Northern Africa, where you can distinguish between the original Egyptian bloodlines and that of the recent Mongolian Invaders, we can also discern a Civilized Temperament from that of the rawer barbarian style of blood.

Now, the lines between Civilization and Barbarism is sometimes blurred. Remember that the most successful Barbarians were able to organize successful Invasions. Any successful execution of organized and cooperative behavior, even if it is aimed toward rape and pillage, is a step toward Civilization, where the primary virtue is Cooperation and where the payoff is in reliable Social Discipline. Right now the World's Populations and Traditions are a toss up between Civilized Traditions and the Traditions of Disciplined and Organized Barbarism. The Disciplined Barbarians would be perfectly Civilized, if they were not so oriented toward being Predatory against other Cultures and Societies. For instance, America would be considered Civilized, except that they seem to be militating toward provoking another World War.... it seems the Military Industrial Complex insists upon having a Super Power enemy. I'm afraid after America finally 'pacifies' Islam, it will turn its guns on China. America's Barbarian Frame of Reference simply cannot discern any other political alternative.

I would hope that Spirituality could speed up the Civilizing Process. Taking 3 generations seems quite time consuming. But for spirituality to have any significant effect, it would have to become 'popular'... it would have to become a popular fad. Stranger things have happened.

Originally posted by Leo Volont


Please, ... while we are discussing situational ethics... never tell an author that you did not read his whole book or essay. *Believe me, authors never ask, always expecting the worst -- that their books lay about half read and collecting dust. *But it seems gratuitious to verify their anxiety by telling them that you could not read a full page. *It is a secret that you might well have kept.

Now, regarding your comments which come down to the idea that everything will work out in the end; that all this Control is just in good fun. * This seems to be what you Hope and not what you know. *What we KNOW is that the Subconscious Mind actively opposes and attempts to obstruct Lucid Over-Control. *We have heard from dreamers who, after having attained Lucid Mastery, suddenly report the total loss of 'Dream Priveleges'. *So, what we know is that the Subconscious Mind does not share your hopes and views that wholesale attacks and predations against Dream Content and the Subconscious Mind, because it is all in good fun, is not really a problem.

For some people rape is fun. *Homicide is fun for certain serial killers. *What kind of a Culture do we live in when people brush aside ethical considerations for the sake of fun.

I apologise for not reading your entire post/essay, that was rather rude of me. Next time, I will surely read everything or not reply at all. Sorry

Regarding your comments:

My definition of 'fun' does not include rape and murder, thank you. I again stress that what I mean by having fun is doing things that make you happy but not involve hurting others, or yourself. I know you spoke critically before about the idea of 'it doesn't hurt anybody, so what's wrong with it?' but this is what I stick to I see no logical reason, both rational, emotional and spiritual for things that don't hurt anybody, to be wrong. There is nothing wrong with making yourself and/or others happy (and not bothering anybody in the process), this seems logical and sensible.

Now there might be some 'higher factors' included, but however, I would consider these factors unknown because we cannot claim to know the absolute truth. Therefor I stick to the logical reason I mentioned before. We must have fun, before we can get to the serious stuff, we're all children before we become adults It's a natural process. And even adults still sometimes remain children inside, of course

And yes, I still believe morals, good and evil are relative and not absolute. But even so, that is no reason to not be true to your own perception of them. Murder is wrong to me, even though I know some people consider it otherwise (cultures, individuals).

Originally posted by Lucius


I apologise for not reading your entire post/essay, that was rather rude of me. Next time, I will surely read everything or not reply at all. Sorry * *

Regarding your comments:

My definition of 'fun' does not include rape and murder, thank you. I again stress that what I mean by having fun is doing things that make you happy but not involve hurting others, or yourself. I know you spoke critically before about the idea of 'it doesn't hurt anybody, so what's wrong with it?' but this is what I stick to * I see no logical reason, both rational, emotional and spiritual for things that don't hurt anybody, to be wrong. There is nothing wrong with making yourself and/or others happy (and not bothering anybody in the process), this seems logical and sensible. *

Now there might be some 'higher factors' included, but however, I would consider these factors unknown because we cannot claim to know the absolute truth. Therefor I stick to the logical reason I mentioned before. We must have fun, before we can get to the serious stuff, we're all children before we become adults It's a natural process. And even adults still sometimes remain children inside, of course * *

And yes, I still believe morals, good and evil are relative and not absolute. But even so, that is no reason to not be true to your own perception of them. Murder is wrong to me, even though I know some people consider it otherwise (cultures, individuals).

Actually, one cannot often read 'everything'... the mistake is in telling authors that you haven't read it. Often you can read enough to get by. In good essay writing, and auther will present his peroration, that , what he wants to tell you, then come all the details and explanations, and then he should sum up with a conclusion regarding the ramifications of what he told you. So if you read the start, and glance through the middle (to check for obvious silliness) and then read the end, you should be equipped well enough to reply without being caught too terribly short.

Now, about 'fun' and your whole aesthetic way of looking at things. yes, indeed, nothing is wrong with harmless fun, if it doesn't hurt anybody. But that would take an awful lot of cyrstal ball gazing to determine whether our apparently innocent actions are hurting anybody. For instance, in the early 80's almost all of the Car Manufacturors found that they could make more money selling hi priced luxury models -- it would not hurt the rich people to pay more for cars with harmless bells and whistles. However, less attention went into development in the lesser cars, forcing people in that market to either pay more for safe vehicles or buy less safe vehicles. You 'fun' market inflated the price of what was minimally safe automobiles. Thousands of People were Killed. Sound like harmless fun to you?

Besides, that was not my point. I was talking about Attacking the Subconscious Mind with an invidious use of Over-Control while you were defending some hippy sense of nihilistic amorality that was not spoken about by anybody but yourself. Perhaps if you had mentioned how you thought it was connected -- that it harms nobody else when you take a flamethrower to your own Subconscious Mind; however, I would have answered that you cannot really delineate where your own personal Subconscious Mind ends and Everybody else's Collective Consciousness begins. When you plunge a knife into your own Subconscious Mind perhaps everybody feels the pain.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
So this is what we need to focus on – what Lucid Behaviors are encouraged by Our Higher Dreaming Mind as opposed to what behaviors set us at War with our Higher Dreaming Mind.

Leo, I finally found the time to read your post. I've quoted one of your comments above as a source of discussion.

You ask what lucid behaviours are encouraged by our higher dreaming mind. Let's look at it from a different angle. What lucid behaviours are abhorrent to the higher dreaming mind? I know very little of the higher dreaming mind of which you speak, so I will talk about a simpler and more mundane subject

One point I've often raised in the past is that there is conciousness. This same conciousness is present both when awake and when lucid dreaming. Being that there is one conciousness, why do people, when lucid dreaming, attempt to violate the morals they uphold while awake? There is no difference! Conciousness just is. I know personally, lucid dreaming is a GRAND test of ones morals and ethics.

Think about it, you are in a "consequence free" environment. Before you take exception to that statement, let me ellaborate. When I say consequence free, I am talking about legal consequences. You will not be placed in jail for killing someone, your wife or significant other will never know that you cheated on her with three dream women.

There are consequences though in violating your morals within lucid dreams. You mentioned decreased dream recall and the loss of lucidity, perhaps this is so, I really don't know. I postulate that the constant violation of morals in a lucid dream will eventually bring decay to your morals and ethics while awake, being that conciousness is. We see this erosion often in waking life, it is a slippersy slope. Let's say you cheat a little on your income tax return one year and get away with it. Next year, isn't it much easier to cheat again, and perhpas to push the envelope a little and cheat more?

I applaud those that have the strength of character to uphold their morals when lucid dreaming. It says much about them.