That dreaded void ;_;

Induction isn't a problem for me now. I get my LD almost every time I do a wbtb properly, which sadly is usually only twice a week since I need weekends for it (my wbtbs are long and I usually WILD during them, with the mild as backup in the back of my head o/c )

So, I know that I should be calm and stabilize, which I really want to do too since my LDs tend to be cartoony and with weak awareness, but I don't even have enough time to do all these neat tricks! The void hits the moment I become lucid! My expectation for it is so strong now that it's difficult to just try to ignore this problem to fix it.

(I just want to note that I would have much better awareness and vividness in LDs and non-lucid dreams if they happen after a late wbtb (ie after 8 hours). O/c training my dream recall is helping too. I just thought that maybe I should mention these).

Anyone got any neat tricks? I'm doing my dream kata now attempting to fix this problem (dream Kata is when I pretend during a waking life session that I am in a LD, and act calm in this case. You can use it for any dream control o/c. The concept here is for me to get used to staying calm and not think of the void.)
I'd like some professional advise. Trying to ignore it isn't working very much for it xp

Is it like you're still in the dream, but everything is black? When that happens to me, I try to calmly look for some other sensory stimulation for a few moments, like feeling the ground, for example. This gives the dream some time to get rolling again and form a new dream scene.

What do you mean by void? because for me and a few others the void is a place of nothingness, completely black.

If that's the case try to incorporate some visualisation of where you would like to be. Try closing your eyes or just imagining it behind you then turn around and it's there.

Yes, I mean the complete nothingness. The problem is that when it happens, I wake up. The dream fading makes me feel like I'm waking up, so I would be expecting to wake up, and if you know a few things about dreams, expecting something makes it happen.

I'm planning on starting to engage in touch when this happens. I tried engaging that street lamp the last time, but it faded away :p
Lucky for me, I naturally have strong touch sense in my lucid dreams :). The touch experiences are always intense and memorable, especially when it's like kissing or the sorts. But my sight is blury in LDs, so I need to train that.

Anyways, I'll be WILDing after a few hours, so if this happens, I'll calmly touch the ground. O/c if it doesn't work, I'll try to DEILD my way back ;)

I'll update soon I tell you if it works!

First off, congrats on your progress. No matter how frustrating your current issues with LD scheduling, stabilisation and control, you're a lot further along that most people get, and you should congratulate yourself. Which is basically cushioning for this next bit: if you're LD count is correct and up to date (60) you will unfortunately have to be patient and get through this phase in your LDing career. While I can't say how long it will take for you, my first 100 or so LDs were plagued by immediate false awakenings in which I was paralysed with terrifying intruder figures. Likely I was experiencing and extreme form of partial awakening (I have always suffered from isolated sleep paralysis). So my main advice is, have more LDs, these difficulties will disappear with experience. Check out Sensei's lucid living thread, his LD count podcast directly addresses that most issues will go away with your increasing LD count.

Secondly, the void isn't that scary! If you already know how to WILD, DEILDing from the void is a doddle. Also, you could see the void as complete absence, but you can also see it as pure potential, a blank canvas waiting to be filled by whatever your dreaming mind comes up with next :)

^^ What he said.

In time, Louai, the void will become just a facet of your explorations, perhaps even a tool for creativity or just a place to rest...nothing at all to dread, or even care much about. You might even welcome it, and develop personal techniques to conjure it -- eventually. For now, though, just learn to work with it, be glad you can DEILD back from the wake-ups, and measure each arrival of the void as another step in the right direction. But none of that matters right now, does it?

For now I would suggest these possibly neatish tricks:

* Close your eyes. Seriously. This might sound counter-intuitive because you're really not looking at anything anyway, but there is something about closing your (dream-body, of course) eyes that acts as a reset button in your dream-schema-creation engine, and when you re-open them you might see something forming. It will likely be something simple, like a thick mist, or perhaps your bedroom (I tend to land in my childhood bedroom, BTW), but it will be something, meaning you have a dream to work with, and your mind and body might also lose interest in waking up. Speaking of that:

* Embrace the moment of the void. Rather than seeing it as a transition to waking-up, see it as a welcome transition to the dream. This might be a difficult attitude to adapt (especially if you continue to wake up a few times), and you might need to do some day work building expectations that match this attitude and eclipse the unhelpful expectation of waking up that you already have in place.

* Bring a flashlight. When you find yourself in the void, try lighting it up! Just add some light in any way you can imagine, maybe with a match, a flashlight/torch, or flipping on a light switch. Just be sure you make it a physical movement, and one that you've both practiced doing in the dark during waking-life and have set an intention to do at bedtime. Don't just shout "Light!" as that doesn't really work in the void (and, because you're close to waking, you might just shout yourself awake for real). The activity of doing this will keep your mind off the whole waking-up bit, and, should you produce some light, you will have an easier time establishing -- shedding light on -- the imagery you need to start up the dream.

* And, of course, stay calm. The void is probably nothing more than a brief NREM transition, and does not need to mean anything at all, especially that it is a sign that you are about to wake up (you really must get that bit of powerful expectation out of your head, even if it takes some work!). Let it have its moment, stay calm, think about your return to the dream, and wait it out with patience and confidence.

That's what I got for now (it's late and I'm tired and likely not making much sense), and I hope it helps. And if it doesn't, you've always got DEILD!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

First off, congrats on your progress. No matter how frustrating your current issues with LD scheduling, stabilisation and control, you're a lot further along that most people get, and you should congratulate yourself. Which is basically cushioning for this next bit: if you're LD count is correct and up to date (60) you will unfortunately have to be patient and get through this phase in your LDing career. While I can't say how long it will take for you, my first 100 or so LDs were plagued by immediate false awakenings in which I was paralysed with terrifying intruder figures. Likely I was experiencing and extreme form of partial awakening (I have always suffered from isolated sleep paralysis). So my main advice is, have more LDs, these difficulties will disappear with experience. Check out Sensei's lucid living thread, his LD count podcast directly addresses that most issues will go away with your increasing LD count.

Secondly, the void isn't that scary! If you already know how to WILD, DEILDing from the void is a doddle. Also, you could see the void as complete absence, but you can also see it as pure potential, a blank canvas waiting to be filled by whatever your dreaming mind comes up with next :)

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Thnx! Yeah it is up to date (60).
Well actually I'm very glad to hear that it's normal to have these problems even at count 60. My frustration isn't time or patience related, it's related to my fear of not being able to reach a pro state in LDing, you know with all the highly self aware and memorable moments. Fear that I may never become that good, like I might be naturally bounded below that, even if I practice a lot. I've asked a lot, andeveryone said that it's not true. They said that it's normal, and more experiences will give me frequent vivid, highly lucid, and memorable LDs. I think that's true too. I should stop worrying about this. I do have frequent vivid and 'being there' NLDs, and with more recall practice, they're getting even better, stronger memories of them, *making* them more intense, vivid, 'being there'. I've had a few strong LDs too, sooo....I should stop worrying. But you know, when you love something so much, it's hard to be calm about any thing that is possibly alarming.

Anyways, back to the void:
Work work work, I have to solve this. I'll do daytime practice for it. I love doing daytime practice of this form. I like pretending I'm in a LD.
I read his lucid living thread. It was very motivating! Also, he has a LD count podcast? I must check it out.

Also, I do want to see the void as a blank canvas. I'm starting to work in switching my thoughts and expectations of it. Seeing it as a 'sandbox mode' that turns on when I become lucid, making me ready for ultimate creation.

I really appreciate the help Ctharlhie!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

^^ What he said.

In time, Louai, the void will become just a facet of your explorations, perhaps even a tool for creativity or just a place to rest...nothing at all to dread, or even care much about. You might even welcome it, and develop personal techniques to conjure it -- eventually. For now, though, just learn to work with it, be glad you can DEILD back from the wake-ups, and measure each arrival of the void as another step in the right direction. But none of that matters right now, does it?

For now I would suggest these possibly neatish tricks:

* Close your eyes. Seriously. This might sound counter-intuitive because you're really not looking at anything anyway, but there is something about closing your (dream-body, of course) eyes that acts as a reset button in your dream-schema-creation engine, and when you re-open them you might see something forming. It will likely be something simple, like a thick mist, or perhaps your bedroom (I tend to land in my childhood bedroom, BTW), but it will be something, meaning you have a dream to work with, and your mind and body might also lose interest in waking up. Speaking of that:

* Embrace the moment of the void. Rather than seeing it as a transition to waking-up, see it as a welcome transition to the dream. This might be a difficult attitude to adapt (especially if you continue to wake up a few times), and you might need to do some day work building expectations that match this attitude and eclipse the unhelpful expectation of waking up that you already have in place.

* Bring a flashlight. When you find yourself in the void, try lighting it up! Just add some light in any way you can imagine, maybe with a match, a flashlight/torch, or flipping on a light switch. Just be sure you make it a physical movement, and one that you've both practiced doing in the dark during waking-life and have set an intention to do at bedtime. Don't just shout "Light!" as that doesn't really work in the void (and, because you're close to waking, you might just shout yourself awake for real). The activity of doing this will keep your mind off the whole waking-up bit, and, should you produce some light, you will have an easier time establishing -- shedding light on -- the imagery you need to start up the dream.

* And, of course, stay calm. The void is probably nothing more than a brief NREM transition, and does not need to mean anything at all, especially that it is a sign that you are about to wake up (you really must get that bit of powerful expectation out of your head, even if it takes some work!). Let it have its moment, stay calm, think about your return to the dream, and wait it out with patience and confidence.

That's what I got for now (it's late and I'm tired and likely not making much sense), and I hope it helps. And if it doesn't, you've always got DEILD!

---

Don't worry, it's all clear.

Yes I do want to make it a tool for creativity. Actually, it might be very helpful. I'm bad at teleportation. Having darkness as a blank where I chose how to fill it, or choose what scenario to put, would be very useful. Seems like I might even want to go to the void just to be able to 'blank 'n generate'.
See what I'm doing? I'm trying to go as far as possible from the idea that the good is bad and will wake me up. I'm trying to forget that and fill in the good aspects of it.

I have a little problem with closing my eyes in dreams. It wakes me up if I reopen them lol, plus I don't think I would want to get used to scene changing using eye closing. That might make it to easy in the future for me to lose the scene just cuz I closed my eyes for some reason. I think I would have solved this one too in the future though.
Well for this reason, I'll add a little adjustment. To change the scene, whether I'm in void or non-void, I can close my eyes AND make some symbol with my hands, or something like that. That'll be like a safety procedure to make sure I wouldn't accidentally change scenes if I close my eyes in future LDs.
I might be over complicating this though :p
Over complicating in LDing is bad.

Definitely gonna embrace the void. Like I said, I'll make it a positive thing. I'll make it like a hub that comes with the start of lucidity. It's my tool for forming the dream. It's the blank space ready for creation. Also, it even helps me stay in the dream because Ir's the state of my subconscious readying to form the dream, making the dream being currently active while in the void. It's like opening an art program. It's blank, but the program is fully on ready for starting the formation.

Definitely gonna stay calm too.

These might, more like will, require daytime practice. I enjoy pretending I'm in a LD and acting all calm and in confident control of the dream and being stable in it. This will be fun.


I love the flashlight idea. To incorporate this more into my expectations, I'll get an actual flashlight when I do my daytime practice, and put it in my pocket to ta take it out when I 'become lucid' and the void hits.
I will practice similar things too, like saying a spell that make me stable in the dream, or maybe a hand gesture cuz like you said, shouting might wake me up because I might be close to waking and I might actually physically shout it out.

I even have a neat plan that even helps more convey the "void as a canvas" idea. I will shout to my dream guide. I already have expectations that she helps me in dream control. This will make me feel like I'm truly in the void for the purpose of creation. Also, her presence would stabilize the dream :)

I'm still character designing her though. I want to finish most of the design process before my final, which is after like 2 and a half months from now (lol designing her character and appearance and so is hard and long, especially that I'm busy studying and also I wanna be pleased with the results, since, this is my DG. Might stay so for the rest of my life.)

I'm always glad you help me! I only hope I can become as good as you someday!
You have frequent 'being there' LDs right? The more experience and practice, the better it got, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LouaiB

You have frequent 'being there' LDs right? The more experience and practice, the better it got, right?

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Yes and Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LouaiB

I even have a neat plan that even helps more convey the "void as a canvas" idea. I will shout to my dream guide. I already have expectations that she helps me in dream control. This will make me feel like I'm truly in the void for the purpose of creation. Also, her presence would stabilize the dream :)

I'm still character designing her though. I want to finish most of the design process before my final, which is after like 2 and a half months from now (lol designing her character and appearance and so is hard and long, especially that I'm busy studying and also I wanna be pleased with the results, since, this is my DG. Might stay so for the rest of my life.)

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You're prepping for a final in lucid dreaming? What awesome school do you go to?

Just joking, I assume you meant you're doing this as an extracurricular project, but it's fun to fantasize.

You mentioned in post #4 that you have a strong sense of touch in your LDs. That is a good way to deal with the "void." It's remarkable how even when sight is absent, the sense of touch can be fully detailed and lifelike. Next time you find yourself in the void, try running your hands over things to stabilize, and don't worry about the lack of sight. It's possible that you can hear things too. If you focus all your attention on what you do experience, you won't be so distracted by the senses that aren't yet functionally fully.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Yes and Yes.

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A few, but very powerful words! I like how you confirmed them so straightforwardly that it feels like practicing piano for example, where the student asks if he'll become better at playing, and the teacher affirms because a person does become better and better with more training in this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Verre

You're prepping for a final in lucid dreaming? What awesome school do you go to?

Just joking, I assume you meant you're doing this as an extracurricular project, but it's fun to fantasize.

You mentioned in post #4 that you have a strong sense of touch in your LDs. That is a good way to deal with the "void." It's remarkable how even when sight is absent, the sense of touch can be fully detailed and lifelike. Next time you find yourself in the void, try running your hands over things to stabilize, and don't worry about the lack of sight. It's possible that you can hear things too. If you focus all your attention on what you do experience, you won't be so distracted by the senses that aren't yet functionally fully.

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Extracurricular? LDing?! Nah, here we don't even have extracurricular in our school systems. Lol I meant my regular finals. But now that you mention it, it would be awesome to have LD as extracurricular :(

Anyways, my hearing sense is even worse than vision :cackle:
It funny because in most of my LD plans, I have music as a main part lol
I guess it's because I don't really focus on hearing anything in the dream. I think that if I try to put on headphones and put on skrillex, my hearing will improve :chuckle:
See what I did there?!


Anyways, tomorrow is off, so tonight will be rock 'n roll!! I've got my light switch trick ready, and got a substitute DG primed and ready to rumble!