Natural Dream Control?

[Mzzkc]

It's rare for me to have a dream these days (lucid, quasi, or non) wherein I don't exert some form of control. It feels so effortlessly natural, that I've begun to have difficulty understanding why people struggle with it or assign higher difficulty to certain tasks. I can't be alone in this. Someone else must recognize the absurdity apparent within the currently accepted patterns of thought surrounding control, yes? Surely at least one other person on this site regards teleportation, telekinesis, flight, time control, shape shifting, mind control, etc. in the same way they do blinking, breathing, or walking: a non-event. Or do you all think me strange?

[Vortaix]

People who imagine it will be hard to teleport actually struggle with teleport. People who imagine it to be easy easily teleport. <--- you We all got the basics figured out -you imagine something, focus your will into something, expect something to happen- and it happens <--- the more we try to make this complicated actually makes the dream control more complicated, while in reality it isn't.

[Mikaa]

I don't struggle with it too. At least of what I could tell from the the dreams I had. It's a bigger problem for me to become lucid then to change my surroundings or bend a element or something like that.

[Ashikael]

I find I struggle the most when I overthink it, like "Okay I want to teleport to this city, can my brain create this city automatically? Maybe I should stand here and focus on all the details of how it looks like..." then I wind up focusing too much on the mechanics of the control rather than just going for it effortlessly. Like I struggle NOT to attempt applying weird laws of physics to things.

[Mzzkc]

People who imagine it will be hard to teleport actually struggle with teleport. People who imagine it to be easy easily teleport. <--- you We all got the basics figured out -you imagine something, focus your will into something, expect something to happen- and it happens <--- the more we try to make this complicated actually makes the dream control more complicated, while in reality it isn't. Ah but see, I'm actively applying my rather complex model of dream control, albeit intuitively. Simply relying on willpower and expectation often leads to unwanted, imprecise results, and I think that's where most folks struggle, yeah? It's not so much that I imagine this stuff to be easy that it is easy. I've made that mistake in the past. I think, more accurately, It's simply a matter of understanding and some degree of familiarity with how dream control works at the (forgive the turn of phrase) atomic level. Does that make sense? I find I struggle the most when I overthink it, like "Okay I want to teleport to this city, can my brain create this city automatically? Maybe I should stand here and focus on all the details of how it looks like..." then I wind up focusing too much on the mechanics of the control rather than just going for it effortlessly. Like I struggle NOT to attempt applying weird laws of physics to things. Mmmm. I think if you ground yourself in the mechanics, and try to understand them fully and completely--before you even enter a dream--you'll have more luck. I consciously leverage dream control mechanics frequently enough whenever I do something a bit more involved. To leverage the metaphor in the OP, jumping isn't too far from walking if you know how to use your legs.

[TravisE]

I think I'm at the point right now where I know on a high level that there's no reason that any task in a LD should be any harder than any other, but I haven't yet figured out how to completely convince myself (on all levels of consciousness/unconsciousness) of it. Hence, I still struggle with tasks I “think” are difficult, especially because I've had difficulty with them before. My current goal is figuring out a way to correct this and stop being my own obstacle.

[Mzzkc]

Travis, I think you might benefit from giving this a once over: How to do "All the things." =)

[Sageous]

It's rare for me to have a dream these days (lucid, quasi, or non) wherein I don't exert some form of control. It feels so effortlessly natural, that I've begun to have difficulty understanding why people struggle with it or assign higher difficulty to certain tasks. I can't be alone in this. Someone else must recognize the absurdity apparent within the currently accepted patterns of thought surrounding control, yes? Surely at least one other person on this site regards teleportation, telekinesis, flight, time control, shape shifting, mind control, etc. in the same way they do blinking, breathing, or walking: a non-event. Or do you all think me strange? I'm guessing folks will always find some reason to think you strange, Mzzkc, but your experience of dream control is not a surprise to me, given your experience and knowledge. Dream control is not, to me, a technical skill as much as it is a by-product of experience, wisdom, and general mindset. In other words, the best route to successful dream control lies not in fulfilling a certain set of techniques with specific skills, but rather real control in dreams comes necessarily with real presence in dreams. If you are truly self-aware in your dream, then dream control is a given, and not a skill. And yes, if that self-awareness is present in a great number of dreams over the course of years, you will indeed find yourself exercising dream control when you are very lucid, slightly lucid, or not all. So yes: someone else does indeed recognize the absurdity apparent within the currently accepted patterns of thought surrounding dream control. You are not alone, and, no matter what they tell you, you are not wrong... I, for one, also find all those control issues you list as non-events, and have also been a bit confused about the priorities and difficulties attached to them.

[Mzzkc]

Sageous, reading through your post I had an inkling that I couldn't quite express regarding your comment on presence. You know that feeling you get when you're sure something is off, but you can't pinpoint how? That's the one. I thought it over, and while you're not wrong, I find myself getting hung up on being "present within a dream". Framing presence as being within the dream relies upon a flawed reference point. I understand your meaning, but hear me out for a moment. Obviously, this is all just based on my understanding of thought, dream formation, and the like, but I think it has a kernel of deeper truth. Ask yourself, "what's a dream, really?" Or rather, ask me, and I'll tell you, "it's all just thought-stuff." And maybe that's the right way to look at things? Not as being within a dream, but as being within your mind. Thus, the presence you speak of achieving can be more readily understood as "presence of self", "presence of mind", or simply "presence". So maybe, mastery of one's thoughts is a pathway to mastery of one's dreams? I don't know. Everything I just wrote seems so obvious now. *shrugs* =) Edit: It's weird coming back into things after being away from the echo chamber for so long. My entire perspective seems completely out of sync with everything that's so often taken as simple fact. I'm truly unsure if I'll be able to shift the common way of thinking when it comes to decades old tenets and fundamentals...it's...vexing.

[Sageous]

^^ Hmm... odd thing to key on when the post wasn't really about presence so much as experience, but I did put "presence" in italics, so okay: Sageous, reading through your post I had an inkling that I couldn't quite express regarding your comment on presence. You know that feeling you get when you're sure something is off, but you can't pinpoint how? That's the one. I thought it over, and while you're not wrong, I find myself getting hung up on being "present within a dream". Actually, I said, "real control in dreams comes necessarily with real presence in dreams," which, if you think about it, is much different. If you are going to be hung up on a phrase, it might be a good idea to grab onto the right one, because (at least in my mind) "real presence in dreams" is much different from "being 'present' within a dream." The former implies all the things you mention above, namely that the "real presence" is the self-aware You in your dream, while the latter would indeed imply that you are present somewhere specific, and somewhere other than in your own mind. This could be a bit nit-picky, but if you're going to skip an entire post just to focus on a single word (which is just fine BTW), then I reserve the right to at least suggest that you focus on the correct word. To clarify: By "...real presence in dreams," I was talking about being self-aware in the context of the mental construct that is your own dream world, a mental construct that you normally assume (when not lucid) to be reality itself. So your "presence," equals your conscious acknowledgement that this "place" and body you are experiencing is actually a dreamworld created by and existing in your own mind, and you understand the true nature of your dream environment and your interaction with it; and from that understanding comes real and potentially effortless dream control. I had assumed that you (and anyone else reading the post, for that matter) would have gotten this, even if you didn't already know from my many other posts that that is my understanding of the subject. Simply saying presence seemed to save some time, and I figured its meaning would be understood; my bad, I guess. Ask yourself, "what's a dream, really?" Or rather, ask me, and I'll tell you, "it's all just thought-stuff." And maybe that's the right way to look at things? Not as being within a dream, but as being within your mind. Thus, the presence you speak of achieving can be more readily understood as "presence of self", "presence of mind", or simply "presence". Okay. I had assumed that putting the word "presence" in italics made exactly that point. I suppose I should have chosen a different word. So maybe, mastery of one's thoughts is a pathway to mastery of one's dreams? Yup. Edit: It's weird coming back into things after being away from the echo chamber for so long. My entire perspective seems completely out of sync with everything that's so often taken as simple fact. I'm truly unsure if I'll be able to shift the common way of thinking when it comes to decades old tenets and fundamentals...it's...vexing. Vexing indeed. I hope you will stay with us long enough this time around for some of your bandwagon-flipping ideas to take hold -- especially in the popularly "defined" departments like dream control. However, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a soul who's almost fully exhausted his downright Quixotic attempts to shift common ways of thinking about other subjects, so all I can really do is wish you good luck...

[Mzzkc]

I understood your meaning completely. I even said as much. The post was an attempt to reframe how the idea is presented to better clarify the heart of your meaning in a more succinct manner. Guess I missed the mark? Like I said, I had some difficulty trying to express the idea. Maybe this will help: Commonly dreams are thought of as external to one's self. This is seen everywhere--even I'm guilty of frequently perpetrating this notion. In actuality, the totality of a dream is you. So would it not be better to frame things around the idea that the dream is you, and not some external entity? I guess where I really wanted to hone in on was the "within a dream" bit? Which is arguably more relevant in a topic on dream control. XD

[Sageous]

^^ Well, given that about 90% of my preaching on this stuff revolves around developing a non-dual perspective when dreaming that confirms that everything comprising the universe that is your dream is simply "You," I can't help but agree with your point, and see a good reason for presenting it... I guess I'll try to be more careful with my semantics from now on, just to avoid confusion, and avoid myself getting drawn into the easy trap of using "common" phrasing like "within a dream." I have a feeling I'll stumble again... All that said, yes, if you can manage to understand that you are not "in" anything when dreaming, but rather are witnessing (and interacting with) the machinations of your own mind, then dream control gets much easier; indeed, once you lucidly understand that it's all you, dream control is an afterthought. I've personally never understood all the techniques and difficulties surrounding dream control, or even why it is a topic at all, if that helps at all. I hope folks pay attention to you, Mzzkc, as yours is a rare, refreshing, and in this case importantly correct perspective of which we do not see enough!

[Kaitakaro]

Distributing the good news of non-separation of dreamer and dream is a good first step but there is still the problem that understanding this scientificly and putting it into practice are two different things. However, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a soul who's almost fully exhausted his downright Quixotic attempts to shift common ways of thinking about other subjects, so all I can really do is wish you good luck... Keep on riding. The windmills of nonsense will never stop and so should you .

[Mzzkc]

^^ Well, given that about 90% of my preaching on this stuff revolves around developing a non-dual perspective when dreaming that confirms that everything comprising the universe that is your dream is simply "You," I can't help but agree with your point, and see a good reason for presenting it... I guess I'll try to be more careful with my semantics from now on, just to avoid confusion, and avoid myself getting drawn into the easy trap of using "common" phrasing like "within a dream." I have a feeling I'll stumble again... No worries. I'll probably fuck it up, too. XP All that said, yes, if you can manage to understand that you are not "in" anything when dreaming, but rather are witnessing (and interacting with) the machinations of your own mind, then dream control gets much easier; indeed, once you lucidly understand that it's all you, dream control is an afterthought. I've personally never understood all the techniques and difficulties surrounding dream control, or even why it is a topic at all, if that helps at all. Techniques and what have you provide decent shortcuts for folks seeking transient experiences. They serve as stepping stones for a more complete understanding, and so they aren't without merit methinks. I hope folks pay attention to you, Mzzkc, as yours is a rare, refreshing, and in this case importantly correct perspective of which we do not see enough! Oh you. I already like you, so you can stahp feeding my ego nao. You know as well as I do that your perspective is just as rare, correct and refreshing. =P Distributing the good news of non-separation of dreamer and dream is a good first step but there is still the problem that understanding this scientificly and putting it into practice are two different things. I'm working on building out some stepping stones that'll assist in bringing people to that level, if they're willing to do the work. Also, I didn't recognize your name, but you seemed cool, so I looked through your post history and decided I like you as well. Please stick around for awhile, maybe?

[Kaitakaro]

Also, I didn't recognize your name, but you seemed cool, so I looked through your post history and decided I like you as well. Please stick around for awhile, maybe? Only if you promise to tell me one day how to pronounce your name correctly .

[Mzzkc]

What do you mean, can't you see the i's in front of the first z and after the second?

[Kaitakaro]

Until now they were invisible to me

[TravisE]

Travis, I think you might benefit from giving this a once over: How to do "All the things." =) Thanks. I've been working on self-awareness for the last several months, so it actually looks like I'm on the right track, then. Some of the discussion here just reminded me of how similar waking-life thoughts/daydreams seem to be to dreams in many ways. I'm prone to daydreaming and can have a tendency to zone out and, in a way, internally treat the daydreams as reality for a while before I “wake up” and realize what's going on, even while having 100% control and very little to no unconscious input.* I find that it's really pretty easy to be lucid during these at will, provided I actually remember to do so in the first place. It's actually just this remembering (and catching myself going into them) that seems to be the main challenge. I'm working on being non-zoned-out and lucid as close to 100% of the time during WL as possible, and eventually, I hope, this will start to happen during sleep as well. I know I now seem to catch myself non-lucid sooner and more frequently than before after getting distracted. Of course, it's pretty obvious to me (when I'm paying attention to it, at least) that my WL thoughts/daydreams are under my control. No such thing as “daydream control” issues here; I just do what I want without having to think about it. So I figure, then, that this is how LDs should become at some point. *And hypnagogic dreamlets, the way I experience them, are essentially a cross between conscious daydreams and dreams: daydreams with predominantly unconsciously-generated content. Which makes them basically identical to dreams but with less stability and “sensory reality”, if that term makes any sense.

[Samael]

Some of the discussion here just reminded me of how similar waking-life thoughts/daydreams seem to be to dreams in many ways. Yep. This is why lucidity and dream control can be inverse for me above a certain level. Third person omniscient dream where I'm not fully aware, just putting together a story? INFINITE dream control. Fully lucid and present within the dream world? Well, now I have to put forth effort, because my "I am present" schema are in place rather than my "I'm telling a story" schema. Like Mzzkc has said, if you can remain fully aware that your dreams are just you telling a story to yourself, you can be both fully lucid and fully in control. But full lucidity can sometimes allow those doubts to seep in... But back to the point of the OP, yes, it is somewhat arbitrary to assign scoring difficulties to dream powers. When lucid, telekinesis is usually about as -- or less -- difficult for me than just lifting the object with my hand would be. And some nights/dreams/stories allow it more easily than others, even for me. But arbitrary doesn't have to mean 100% bad.

[TravisE]

Yep. This is why lucidity and dream control can be inverse for me above a certain level. Third person omniscient dream where I'm not fully aware, just putting together a story? INFINITE dream control. Fully lucid and present within the dream world? Well, now I have to put forth effort, because my "I am present" schema are in place rather than my "I'm telling a story" schema. Like Mzzkc has said, if you can remain fully aware that your dreams are just you telling a story to yourself, you can be both fully lucid and fully in control. But full lucidity can sometimes allow those doubts to seep in... Yep, I've indeed experienced things like that, I think. It isn't too unusual for me to have trouble distinguishing thoughts/daydreams/dreamlets/dreams when I'm in any kind of sleep state, even sometimes when lucid (I often have dreams which are combinations of all of these). I also suspect that often in those NLDs or low-level LDs where I exercise certain forms of control successfully I simply forget about the possibility of it failing, so there's no interference. It's tricky not to think about my past failures in LDs where I have good memory and have those expectations poison the attempts. I'm not sure if this relates to any of this, but the other day I had an intriguing dream (which at the time, I seemed to think I was in a dreamlet or something rather than a full dream—the line gets really blurry, especially late in sleep) in which I was playing through a popular classic video game, but I was purposely manipulating the imagery to create rooms and make things happen that aren't actually in the game. Then I allowed my unconscious to decide what would happen next. I enjoyed exploring some unconsciously-generated rooms, then I again intervened and willed something to happen (a door to appear out of nowhere, or my character falling through a floor, etc.) and again let it decide what would appear next. It was a lot of fun. I've had similar experiences where my mind seems to be composing music (which I haven't a clue about IWL) and I can nudge it with just a subtle, vague conscious concept and hear the result instantly yet effortlessly created in realtime. It's truly awesome. The thing that strikes me is that in these I had no apparent difficulty with control at all where I wanted it, yet I was able to let the dream make all the decisions (countless ones) that I didn't want to consciously figure out; it all felt natural and I didn't have to think about how to do it—I just did. But what's really impressive to me is that I also felt a unique, special sense of “unity” or communication between the conscious and unconscious/dream-generating parts of my mind that's difficult to convey in words, and which seems to be absent in my “usual” LDs. I wonder if this is what I need more of.

[LucidRanma]

I definitely experience certain things naturally. Flying, in particular, isn't hard for me at all. In my first lucid, I had a hard time getting off the ground. I couldn't really understand why, as flying was so easy (note how I already believed I could do it). Never had an issue again. Seriously, I was pissed because I couldn't fly that first time and knew that I could; it's like taking a drink of Coke and getting Pepsi. You'd be pissed, because you know it's Coke, but it tastes like Pepsi for some weird reason. Belief plays a large part in being a natural, but luck also plays a big part too. Sometimes, for whatever reason, our brains just seem to think one thing is easier than another. One thing that is interesting for me is that I used to be able to teleport through mirrors without an issue, but now I either get blocked or wake up. I don't really know why that happens, it just does now. The bigger problem though, and the one I haven't figured out, is how to remove your doubts about being able to do something. If I ever figure that out, I think I just might control my dreams perfectly. I do have a theory though. Once you've done something in a dream (possibly even if not lucid), you can always do the same thing in your dreams. If you've done it once, you can obviously do it; consequently, I imagine that your brain must remember that and even if you have some sort of doubts, you should be able to override them and do it again. But yeah, flying is my natural talent in dreams I suppose. I don't actually do it all that often except as a mode of transportation; what I mean is I don't usually do it for the sake of doing it, but as a means to something else in the dream. I should also note that perhaps flying is easy for me because before I ever lucid dreamed, I had dreams about hovering or being uncontrollably lifted into the air, so defying gravity didn't seem like a big deal.

[DawnEye11]

Dream control can be easy and at times no. I feel like the main problem for dream control is that when the dream wants to convey a message or throws a quick change in the dream world that's when it becomes hard at the moment.Its like having pop up adds in dreams, they just tend to pop up and get in the way. Other adds are more annoying than others too. Depending on the intensity, feelings felt,past experiences[especially those that occurred that day]and future expectations things can end up being difficult or easy. So if you have a clear focus and expectation without that throw off its as easy as blinking like you said.

[Mzzkc]

Yeah, like I've said countless times on this site, control is not a matter of belief, luck, or anything nearly so whimsical. Control is control. There are very clear, rigid mechanisms at work that once understood and mastered make those "throw offs" mean nothing. They too are non-events, simply the brain functioning the way it functions. *shrugs* See you all next month, maybe?

[Samael]

See you all next month, maybe? Is that about how often that we resurrect your topics?

[Mzzkc]

Yeah, give or take. XP