I am thinking this is why my lucid dreams are not too long. Something will happen during the dream that I will associate with being the end of the dream.
Take for example, a lucid dream I had this morning: I caught a false awakening, flew out the window of my second story bedroom to fly and saw a nice sunrise. My body felt heavy flying down to my backyard. I saw a DC, mentioned the sunrise to him and asked him why my body felt heavy. He said it was because I was thinking too slowly. He gave me a phone number so I could call him (I forgot the number). Then he asked me to put down my signature on a tablet of his. I put down my signature, thinking explicitly I had plenty of time. Immediately after I finished my signature, I woke up.
I figure I was subconsciously associating the end of my interaction with the DC with being the end of the dream.
My dreams will end similarly after attempts at dream control. I will make an attempt at dream control and will, I assume, subconsciously associate the end of the dream control attempt as being the end of the dream.
I am thinking a way to do this is to stay one step ahead of myself during the dream. In my LD last night, I never thought about what I was going to do after my interaction with the DC. Perhaps the dream could have lasted longer if I thought to myself exactly what I was going to do next rather than simply thinking I had plenty of time.
This is the longest lucid dream I have had that I can recall at the moment. It was probably about 5-7 minutes in length. I'll make bold the parts where I was thinking what I was going to do in the future during the dream.
Spoiler for "long" LD lol:
I wake up in bed. Something feels off so I do a nose plug. I can breathe! I can't quite believe it so I do another nose plug. I can breathe! I get up from bed. The dream in very unstable; I can hardly move. I must stabilize it. What do I do! Think, think, think! I summon a random dc, a young adult African American male. I shake hands with him and introduce myself. We'll call him Efrain. I feel more mobile, the dream is stabilizing nicely. I ask him where the leaves are so we can play in them. We go into the backyard and turn the corner to the left. The backyard is a good sized fenced in area with a big lawn and lots of piles of large leaves. I look for a pile that looks big enough and flop on top of them. The leaves are soft but slightly crunchy. I look for a bigger pile and gather some leaves together to make one a couple of feet high. I flop on top of them. Flop! I feel wonderful, feeling the satisfaction of completing a task which took me several lucid dreams to accomplish. I part ways with Efrain and jump up to fly. I'm in a neighborhood in the hills. I decide to crest the hill in front of me to see what's on the other side. I crest it and find a valley filled with suburbia, just like where I live IWL. I fly to the freeway and turn to left, deciding to fly along the freeway going through the valley. I'm flying with good control and speed. My dream is very stable and is getting longer than my typical lucid dream. I try to recall details from the dream, trying to avoid thinking about waking up. What was that DC's name? I reach the end of the valley to an open area. There are a few large, unusual buildings marking the gate to the valley. It looks like a couple of large rings with chains on the side? I'm looking at the building, trying to memorize the details. I wake up.
12-24-2016, 02:15 AM
Occipitalred
Maybe with time and as your lucid dream experiences accumulate will come a time where you won't care about when the dream will end, and maybe then, as any association with the end of the dream will be weak, your dreams will be longer? I also suffer from very short lucid dreams. :)
12-24-2016, 03:05 AM
cooleymd
have you ever entered and then survived the void Dolphin?
most of my longest lucids are the combination of scape 1 + void + scape 2 :)
I believe I have had like 10 or so 10-15+min lucid dreams
12-24-2016, 03:08 AM
Occipitalred
I survived the void twice I think but scape 2 was short. :)
12-24-2016, 03:45 AM
Sivason
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphin
I am thinking this is why my lucid dreams are not too long. Something will happen during the dream that I will associate with being the end of the dream.
Take for example, a lucid dream I had this morning: I caught a false awakening, flew out the window of my second story bedroom to fly and saw a nice sunrise. My body felt heavy flying down to my backyard. I saw a DC, mentioned the sunrise to him and asked him why my body felt heavy. He said it was because I was thinking too slowly. He gave me a phone number so I could call him (I forgot the number). Then he asked me to put down my signature on a tablet of his. I put down my signature, thinking explicitly I had plenty of time. Immediately after I finished my signature, I woke up.
I figure I was subconsciously associating the end of my interaction with the DC with being the end of the dream.
My dreams will end similarly after attempts at dream control. I will make an attempt at dream control and will, I assume, subconsciously associate the end of the dream control attempt as being the end of the dream.
I am thinking a way to do this is to stay one step ahead of myself during the dream. In my LD last night, I never thought about what I was going to do after my interaction with the DC. Perhaps the dream could have lasted longer if I thought to myself exactly what I was going to do next rather than simply thinking I had plenty of time.
This is the longest lucid dream I have had that I can recall at the moment. It was probably about 5-7 minutes in length. I'll make bold the parts where I was thinking what I was going to do in the future during the dream.
Spoiler for "long" LD lol:
I wake up in bed. Something feels off so I do a nose plug. I can breathe! I can't quite believe it so I do another nose plug. I can breathe! I get up from bed. The dream in very unstable; I can hardly move. I must stabilize it. What do I do! Think, think, think! I summon a random dc, a young adult African American male. I shake hands with him and introduce myself. We'll call him Efrain. I feel more mobile, the dream is stabilizing nicely. I ask him where the leaves are so we can play in them. We go into the backyard and turn the corner to the left. The backyard is a good sized fenced in area with a big lawn and lots of piles of large leaves. I look for a pile that looks big enough and flop on top of them. The leaves are soft but slightly crunchy. I look for a bigger pile and gather some leaves together to make one a couple of feet high. I flop on top of them. Flop! I feel wonderful, feeling the satisfaction of completing a task which took me several lucid dreams to accomplish. I part ways with Efrain and jump up to fly. I'm in a neighborhood in the hills. I decide to crest the hill in front of me to see what's on the other side. I crest it and find a valley filled with suburbia, just like where I live IWL. I fly to the freeway and turn to left, deciding to fly along the freeway going through the valley. I'm flying with good control and speed. My dream is very stable and is getting longer than my typical lucid dream. I try to recall details from the dream, trying to avoid thinking about waking up. What was that DC's name? I reach the end of the valley to an open area. There are a few large, unusual buildings marking the gate to the valley. It looks like a couple of large rings with chains on the side? I'm looking at the building, trying to memorize the details. I wake up.
First I would suggest stabilizing at the very first by examining one thing like your hand in detail. If you can wait until you can feel your hand move and see the visuals respond (seeing and feeling the hand move) before doing anything else it will help a huge amount. Stop every 3 minutes or so and examine one item in exclusion to everything else. by doing this you are reducing the amount of processing power needed and giving the dream a moment to buffer.
Next, pay attention to the subtle feelings when your lucids end. It takes time, but you can sense the dream becoming unstable or your body beginning to wake. When you sense this drop all actions and all visuals down to one simple action and one simple visual. Say I am in the middle of a vivid scene with DCs and action, but I suddenly feel that subtle thing (instability/waking) so I may check my watch. I ignore everything other than the vague premise of the scene, such as 'at a party' and I will examine the watch. I do not look for any visuals other than my forearm and the watch. I may do something very simple like adjust the band of the watch. I will keep this very limited scene going until the instability passes.
Finally if I loose the dream anyways, such as all visuals are gone, I do not accept it. I 'know' the dream is still going and pretend I can still see the watch (or what ever) I try to see any detail of the watch. Perhaps I see a brown smudge in a field of black, so I assume this is the outline of the watch. I simply watch that spot and mentally comment on how it really does look like a watch. Perhaps I still have some tactile sense but almost no visuals. Well I may visualize the tactile sense of running my finger around the watch face. What I am doing here is waiting out what the other commentators are calling the void. Done right this phase will pass in a moment and the watch comes back into view. Then when stability is reached I look up expecting to see the party or whatever.
Sometimes nothing can be done, but with this kind of routine LDs can last over an hour (give it a decade).
12-24-2016, 07:50 AM
dolphin
I have tried a lot to forget about stabilizing altogether but it has never helped. I just end up with the same 1-3 minute dreams.
I can recall at least a few times I have unintentionally entered the void before intentionally escaping it. I am familiar with how to escape the void should I find myself in it. However, I don't think I have done this more than once in a dream and when I escaped the void, I don't think I was awake much longer than a minute.
I have never really thought about the dream buffering during the middle of the dream. I have thought it during the beginning of WILDs.
I like your description about how stabilizing is done, sivason. It makes sense to me how to thinking of the dream as a sort of marathon would help it last longer. I will try to examine my hand in detail during the beginning of the dream. Maybe I'll focus on my clothes or something at the end of dream scenes. I would think about more tonight but I really want to go bed.
Edit:I had a couple of DEILDs last night. During the first DEILD I forgot about stabilizing, but during the second I looked at my hand, could feel my hand move and see the visuals respond. The dream scene after that was stable and vivid. I was on a beach, saw some DCs sitting around talking and was trying to identify who the DCs were and tried to listen and understand what they were talking about. Then after I got bored and left them, the dream collapsed before I could save it.
I will continue to do the hand routine at the beginning. Could I continue the hand routine while restabilizing or would it be better to summon a ball or something to look at and play with?
12-25-2016, 11:20 PM
dolphin
I tried the hand routine again last beginning of my LD. I tried playing a partially covered piano but I couldn't uncover it. I gave up and tried the hand routine again but this time, the visuals weren't responding as well and I woke up.
I was not as well prepared as I should have been. I didn't exactly examine my hand in detail this time, I didn't have a dream goal in mind going into this dream and I still wasn't sure what one simple action and visual to focus on to restabilize. I haven't been paying attention to when the dream is ending.
I'll be sure to examine my hand in detail this time at the beginning. My dream goal will be to transport myself to a snowy mountain and sled down it. While pursuing my dream goal, I will try to identify the signs the dream is going to end. When I see these signs, I will focus on the look and feel of my hands rubbing until the dream becomes stable again.
12-26-2016, 01:04 AM
cooleymd
Clearly sivason is a more experienced lucid dreamer than I. However, his focus on vision for surviving the void seems a bit risky to me. Certainly being calm and expecting a visual dreamscape is one of the keys, and if you can persist in the dream long enough vision will return. But it is generally accepted that touch/proprioception are the last senses to go, with vision being the first, the others (smell/taste/sound) going in the meantime.
So I think rubbing hands is the best way to go for survival, but certainly it might not hurt to do other things like even achieve goals, or question the dreamscape (or use other verbal commands) yell something like 'subconscious where is my dreamscape?' or 'dreamscape return!' I have tried to pocket summon things in the void successfully too.
I would also point out that one thing that sometimes causes the dreamscape to reappear is to begin walking. I once noticed that as I was rubbing my hands (having been standing up) it occurred to me that I was now lying down. I jumped up as if from a bed and began walking. Immediately the dreamscape reappeared the instant my feet hit the ground.
I think this is related to the sense of proprioception and balance interacting to trigger the visual cortex to present something you're moving against.
Also while walking I like to hold my hands out in front of me expecting a door handle, and then turn it to open on a new dreamscape, If it doesn't work after stepping thru I turn around and try from the other side, back and forth :)
12-26-2016, 03:21 PM
cooleymd
I was awake at 2:56 when I checked the clock then woke from the Void at 3:11
The moral of this lucid is that you should have more than a goal of just surviving the void:
Spoiler for Air Swimming in the Void:
Non-Lucid Lucid
I was in a field and some fires started, I looked in many directions and there were many fires there were many people perhaps near a 100 running from the fields, there was a wood and road on the edge of the field and across the road houses on a grassy hill. I stayed near the road and heard fire engines I saw some utility trucks driving out into the fire and people yelling. Then a fire engine passing me that had a tire on the side of it brushed against me hitting me with the spare tire. Then I noticed the lightning in the field, then in the trees in front of me. People were running from the lightning now, I was near the ground, but it was wet and the trees were attracting lightning, the kind that branches out in a web and hits everwhere. So I decided to make for the cover of a porch of a house on the grassy hill, I crossed the road and began to grasp at the hillside. As I clutched at the grass and tried to pull myself up the dream faded. As it faded I thought "this is a dream". The entire Lucid part took place in the void. I rubbed my hands a bit then thought I'll do a jump and hang in the air. Once in the air, in the void, I decided to swim in the air, and I began to swim like a frog. I did many strokes and then felt as If I was swimming in bed, so I immediately get up and my feet hit the ground, as I expect, then I reach out and feel a wall as I expect then the other wall of the door entrance as I expect. I reach out and feel the door, as I open it I expect to see my hallway. I open it and initially I couldn't see, but there had been the sound of something in the hall. I found myself faced with a monster that felt like a blanket attacking me, I was pushed back into the door way, I picked up what felt like a speaker and set it on the unseen blanket monster, which I had pushed onto the floor in the darkness. Then a second one attacked, but I pushed it back and stepped into the hall, then after a second vision comes but only to the upper left hand corner of my left eye. It is also distorted, I see part of the room across the hall badly twisted. I wake.
total void time just under 2 minutes
Notice that the entire time in the void I was merely trying to survive the void, once I did I no longer had a goal and so the dream ended :(
I should have thought after I survive this void I'll go and do XYZ...
12-27-2016, 01:56 AM
Occipitalred
Why is it that we need a goal? We don't need goals in non-lucids. Shouldn't just taking in the dream be enough for it to continue?
12-27-2016, 02:25 AM
Sivason
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooleymd
Clearly sivason is a more experienced lucid dreamer than I. However, his focus on vision for surviving the void seems a bit risky to me. Certainly being calm and expecting a visual dreamscape is one of the keys, and if you can persist in the dream long enough vision will return. But it is generally accepted that touch/proprioception are the last senses to go, with vision being the first, the others (smell/taste/sound) going in the meantime.
So I think rubbing hands is the best way to go for survival, but certainly it might not hurt to do other things like even achieve goals, or question the dreamscape (or use other verbal commands) yell something like 'subconscious where is my dreamscape?' or 'dreamscape return!' I have tried to pocket summon things in the void successfully too.
I would also point out that one thing that sometimes causes the dreamscape to reappear is to begin walking. I once noticed that as I was rubbing my hands (having been standing up) it occurred to me that I was now lying down. I jumped up as if from a bed and began walking. Immediately the dreamscape reappeared the instant my feet hit the ground.
I think this is related to the sense of proprioception and balance interacting to trigger the visual cortex to present something you're moving against.
Also while walking I like to hold my hands out in front of me expecting a door handle, and then turn it to open on a new dreamscape, If it doesn't work after stepping thru I turn around and try from the other side, back and forth :)
I can agree that this is my first line of action. tactile visualization is the go to move for maintaining a dream state in the void. However, I have been able to convince my brain that it is seeing something that I have entirely made up, and then my visual center kicks back in.
12-27-2016, 03:08 AM
cooleymd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Occipitalred
Why is it that we need a goal? We don't need goals in non-lucids. Shouldn't just taking in the dream be enough for it to continue?
well all I know is that having continuing goals is effective for dream length
here is the gist of his reply about realizing the importance of having something to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyd0nut
I think the biggest takeaway for me from that advice was in, "Get a goal, get moving." I realize now that all of my previous short LD's were short because I had no idea what to do. What's the point of being lucid if you're not going to do anything?
as for non-lucid length, when I awake from a dream late in my cycles and having slept for like 60-90 minutes I sometimes remember 5-7 segments of a dream (each 3-5 minutes) so non-lucids tend to be a sequence of unrelated stuff in my experience, each plays out for only a short while.
they are not generally long narratives
12-27-2016, 04:01 AM
dolphin
I like your thinking, cooleymd. If we are focusing on touch, we will be in a better position to save the dream should it collapse.
Occipitralred, the goal is there to help give us motivation to maintain lucidity. With lucidity comes the memory needed to remember to save the dream from collapsing if it does. We could indeed maintain this motivation by simply taking in the dream, but with this comes the risk of the mind wandering too far away from the concept of dreaming.
I tried the hand thing first thing again last night in a DEILD but the dream was unstable right away and never stabilized despite my looking at my hands.
I have not been focusing too much on touch in my lucids. I wonder what would happen if I focused primarily on touch throughout the entire dream.
12-27-2016, 04:03 AM
ThreeCat
I think it probably depends on what your mind is like during the day. If your daily thought process involves goal-seeking behavior (like most of us) then not having a goal in a lucid dream (especially if you think you need one) will possibly cause the dream to end, or at least a false awakening.
Occipital, non-lucids are full of goals. We are always trying to do stupid things, like the start the car that won't start. These are definitely goals. Very rarely are we in a non-lucid, just sitting quietly, with nowhere to go and nothing to do. I would say though that as long as you feel you are doing something (even if that something is to just "take in" the dream) then that is a goal and it shouldn't cause the dream to end. If anything, it could be a kind of stabilization in itself.
12-27-2016, 04:25 AM
Occipitalred
I'll try it out, thank you (to always have a plan; goals to do in the dream).
I asked because, I used to have this belief that dream could never be still, that something always had to happen, there always needed to be an action being done or else the dream would collapse and restart. But I had a few unmotivated lucids where I was stuck in a boring hole, too small for much movement. Instead of struggling to crawl out, I would stop and wait, convinced a dream would never allow me to do nothing. Yet, the dream would still go on 1 minute with just me waiting. Because my lucids are so short, this is a lot of time for me.
@3cats. Yes, but the goals you talk of are very natural goals. I suspect most people whose lucid dream ends did not end for lack of such a goal. no?
12-27-2016, 05:01 AM
cooleymd
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphin
I like your thinking, cooleymd...
I wonder what would happen if I focused primarily on touch throughout the entire dream.
I once became lucid after seeing a dead relative and a way too young relative tried to go outside, and encountered a locked door, as I fumbled for keys (from the inside of the house) I pushed against the door and it opened (I seem to have to power to create doors by leaning my shoulders even into solid walls, even in non-lucids). I get outside I decided to do the Lucy Hand thing, it worked like a charm, next I noticed the grass, So I kicked off my shoes and squished my feet in the grass, it felt awesome. [I took them off so that I could maintain constant contact with the dream scape]...
my next decision was to jump in the air and fly for the rest of the dream.... DOH!!!
12-27-2016, 06:07 PM
dolphin
Last night in an LD, I tried summoning a ball to constantly feel during the dream. That didn't work out so well because the dream was unstable, so I lied down on the floor and tried feeling the floor. At first, I couldn't even feel the floor, but eventually the dream stabilized and I could feel it. I didn't get up, though because I was distracted by a tiny dog.
In my next LD, I stabilized by lying down on the floor and feeling it in order to stabilize the dream. Like the first dream, I could not feel the floor at first because the dream was so unstable, but eventually I could feel the floor once the dream stabilized. This time I did get up and found the dream was nice and stable. I went outside and decided to look for a girl to make out with. I could not so I lied down on the grass and felt it to stabilize once again. I tried to fly which was kind of weird. I got stuck mid air. I guess the DCs were holding me back because they were upset with me. After a bit, they launched me up and sent a dog to chase me. Then Deadpool of all people came to rescue me and brought me back to the ground where I quickly woke up.
Lying down on the ground and feeling it until the dream is vivid seems to be an effective way to stabilize for me. I was even able to restabilize. Yay! It doesn't take much thought to do it either, so while doing it, I could plan what I will do next.
12-28-2016, 12:37 AM
lunagoddess
How long did it take for you dream to stabilize, Dolphin? I've been looking for a good stabilizing technique, too. I'm worried that laying down would remind me that I'm actually lying in bed in real life and I might start getting real feedback from my physical body instead of my dream body. Whenever I think about reality in an LD I tend to wake up. But it's worth a try!
12-28-2016, 01:00 AM
dolphin
I'd say it took about 10 seconds for the dream to stabilize.
Kneeling down very close to the ground on both knees would probably be just as effective. The idea is to reduce the dream to the one simple visual of the ground and the one simple action of feeling it. When both of those things are vivid, the dream is stabilized.
12-28-2016, 04:44 AM
Sivason
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphin
I'd say it took about 10 seconds for the dream to stabilize.
Kneeling down very close to the ground on both knees would probably be just as effective. The idea is to reduce the dream to the one simple visual of the ground and the one simple action of feeling it. When both of those things are vivid, the dream is stabilized.
Awesome! Congrats!
12-28-2016, 07:39 AM
cooleymd
Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphin
...The idea is to reduce the dream to the one simple visual of the ground...
So you were face down?
Somehow I imagined you looking up at the sky on your back.
Maybe you should change your nick to Ostrich.
Tho I was a bit surprised when you said in one lucid you were at the beach you didn't try to transform and swim out to sea :)
As for getting stuck in the air happens all the time for me, often with a false awakening.
Tho if being face down really is stabilizing why then about 10 dreams ago I did a quintuple face plant into the ground, on the last attempt to fly I thought if only the ground were further away, I ended up face planting into a crevice. The extra distance didn't help as much as I thought and the b.s. of it might have been what woke me :)
12-28-2016, 07:05 PM
dolphin
Yes, I was looking down at the ground. My face was not down on the ground, but I was looking towards it.
I was interested in the beach because I don't dream about the beach as much as I do about the ocean. I like the beach, too!
My first lucid last night started out in a bedroom. I lied down to stabilize but found the dream was already stable. I tried to summon a woman to make out with instead got a man instead who was flirting with me. I woke up quickly after that.
In my next lucid, I tried kneeling down close to the ground on both knees to stabilize but I didn't find it as effective. I couldn't feel the ground as much that way. In that same LD, I was on a street. I saw another street and told myself, I'm going to make it to that street. I woke up while I was halfway there.
In my next lucid, I found myself in the same position of being on a street and wanting to go to another street. This time, I tried looking around more while walking because I thought it might work. This seemed to help prolong the dream. Eventually, I found myself in a familiar location and wanted to learn the name of it. I learned the place was called Triqueté Park, a shopping district which grew from a toothpick selling business. I sort of woke up intentionally because I wanted to remember this, although now it seems kind of stupid.
That last lucid was the only one I didn't get on the ground to stabilize, yet it was the longest one. Maybe that stabilizing technique wasn't what was prolonging the dream. I do like how it makes me feel grounded, though.
Also, I woke up having a clear goal in mind during my 2nd LD. Maybe having goals in mind doesn't help prolong the dream either. So frustrating!
Yesterday, I was reading Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming and read these things:
Quote:
If the secret to preventing premature awakening is to maintain active participation in the dream, the secret to awakening at will is to withdraw your attention and participation from the dream. Think, daydream, or otherwise withdraw your attention from the dream, and you are very likely to awaken.
Another way of withdrawing your participation from the dream is to cease making the usual rapid eye movements so crucially characteristic of REM sleep. Paul Tholey has experimented with fixation on a stationary point during lucid dreams. He found that gaze fixation caused the fixation point to blur, followed by dissolution of the entire dream scene and an awakening within four to twelve seconds.
This was where I got the idea to look around more during my last lucid. I figured if I did opposite of what it said to do to wake up, it might help me stay in the dream, which it did.
I'll try to keep my eyes moving again and see how that works.
12-28-2016, 07:33 PM
cooleymd
@dolphin well at least you have a lot of lucids to find what works,
I have been having a luicd on average every 3 days for the past two months
normally only one per week tho
07-08-2019, 04:04 PM
DoctorFoxy
Ive had an LD where I was being attacked by DCs, getting stabbed and such. However, no matter how hard I tried, I couldnt exit the dream. So maybe you should try to exit the dream on purpose and see how hard that is, it might help you stay in them longer once you realize they aren that "fragile"
07-09-2019, 11:57 PM
Caradon
Didn't have time to read the entire thread so sorry if this has already been stated. I've found that personally, thinking about waking up is the worst thing. For a while I was getting into too much tasking, doing tasks of the month, personal tasks, and trying to do Deep Dreaming tasks back when Deep Dreaming was still a private forum.
It was getting so that I would always be stressed out that I wouldn't be able to complete the task before waking up, that would cause me to wake up too soon. So I finally just said the hell with tasking, or at least with getting overly involved with them. I Just started having my own spur of the moment enjoyment without having to always feel like I have to get some task done. Which took most of the freedom out of it anyways. Once I stopped focusing on tasks so much, and just started enjoying my dreams my own way, they became increasingly longer due to not being so worried about it.
I know it's easier said than done, but I think it's best to not think about waking up at all. Because as soon as you start thinking about the possibility of waking up you are in danger of making it happen, or causing a false awakening to happen.
