Say Good-bye to Short LDs

[CosmicIron]

For a lucid dreamer, nothing causes more frustration than those short-lived LDs. The tips I provide here are intended to help prevent pre-mature termination of lucid dreams. For clarity I will not get into detailed discussion/explanation of these tips as they are mostly self-explanatory. Immediately perform stabilization techniques upon becoming lucid. Immediately break away from previous dream plot and current dream environment after performing stabilization techniques. Always direct your focus to external objects and events. Never think about your physical body. Resist rational thoughts. Do not talk to yourself. Do not fly all the time. Walking is recommended mean to travel. Treat small tasks as immediate goals. For example, walking down that stair should be considered a "goal"; touching and examine that object should be considered a "goal". Some of the most effective stabilization methods: Crawl on floor. This not only gives you a full-body workout, it also keeps your dream body from aligning with the sleeping physical body. Touching and examining small objects in detail. Eat things. I'm not kidding. For example, sometimes during an OBE we get entangled by the bed sheet. What do we do? The more you fight it the more you will get wrapped up and eventually wake up in sweat. Better just eat it! This will stabilize your dream, break you free, and the sheet might taste good. Switch on lights. Find a wall switch and flip it on repeatedly. The room may not light up, but rest assured something will. For example, the street lamps, the stars, night turns day, and etc. Shouting. Anything will do, but of course you can be more specific by shouting "More lucidity!" or "More clarity!". Your dream environment might shake a bit and will stablize and turn into higher definition. Note this method is more effective in outdoor environment. A suggested sequence, assuming an OBE: 1. Quickly rub hands and observe them. 2. Crawl on floor and observe the floor texture. 3. Find a wall switch and flip on the light. 4. Exit the room. 5. Shout "More clarity now!" when outside. 6. Shout "Show me something interesting!" to change the dream plot.

[nina]

Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views

[CosmicIron]

Dream Stabilization and Clarity Tutorial - Lucid Dreaming - Dream Views I'm not sure why you replied nothing except with a link to another article. My guess is that you are implying my post is a duplicate of effort and thus having little value. I read that article carefully. While I agree with the basic principles, I think it is far from being the end-all solution and could definitely benefit from additional ideas. For example, the crawling technique is a much better stabilization technique than hand rubbing. The principle which one should not be thinking about the physical body is especially critical during an OBE... And there are many more if you read my post carefully. Also I do not agree with some of the techniques recommended by that article, to name a few: 1. Hand rubbing has only short-term effect and should not be used extensively. It is fine as an emergency tool, but it's scope of effects is often limited. In fact, prolonged hand rubbing often results in feeling the physical body and waking up. It is not nearly as effective as floor crawling. 2. Falling back is dangerous because it overlaps with the sleeping physical body, which almost certainly results in FAs for most users. 3. Spinning has similar side effect as falling back, only marginally better. For scene change, it normally requires the user to close eyes, which is very dangerous. Closing eyes easily result in FAs or loss of visuals.

[Graves]

1. Hand rubbing has only short-term effect and should not be used extensively. It is fine as an emergency tool, but it's scope of effects is often limited. In fact, prolonged hand rubbing often results in feeling the physical body and waking up. It is not nearly as effective as floor crawling. 2. Falling back is dangerous because it overlaps with the sleeping physical body, which almost certainly results in FAs for most users. 3. Spinning has similar side effect as falling back, only marginally better. For scene change, it normally requires the user to close eyes, which is very dangerous. Closing eyes easily result in FAs or loss of visuals. Amen.

[superchaz]

Had a short LD todao, i'll have to use these

[USA]

Great guide Cosmic! I like your method of floor crawling as a way of stabilization, I have never tried it xD! I always forget to stabilize, I usually just RC, then run off and do something else... I did rub my hands together once in a LD, but it barely did anything.

[superchaz]

I always forget to stabilize, I usually just RC, then run off and do something else... Ain't dat the truth.

[Sea07]

These are some great tips, I think it will definitely help me for I have been having issues with short LD's, Thanks for the guide.

[CosmicIron]

For some reason I cannot edit my post. I will add this sentence here: •Treat small tasks as immediate goals. For example, walking down that stair should be considered a "goal"; touching and examine that object should be considered a "goal". After a goal is completed, you should immediately set up another, no matter how trivial it seems. In fact, try not to specify grand goals too often.

[nina]

I'm not sure why you replied nothing except with a link to another article. My guess is that you are implying my post is a duplicate of effort and thus having little value. I read that article carefully. While I agree with the basic principles, I think it is far from being the end-all solution and could definitely benefit from additional ideas. For example, the crawling technique is a much better stabilization technique than hand rubbing. The principle which one should not be thinking about the physical body is especially critical during an OBE... And there are many more if you read my post carefully. Also I do not agree with some of the techniques recommended by that article, to name a few: 1. Hand rubbing has only short-term effect and should not be used extensively. It is fine as an emergency tool, but it's scope of effects is often limited. In fact, prolonged hand rubbing often results in feeling the physical body and waking up. It is not nearly as effective as floor crawling. 2. Falling back is dangerous because it overlaps with the sleeping physical body, which almost certainly results in FAs for most users. 3. Spinning has similar side effect as falling back, only marginally better. For scene change, it normally requires the user to close eyes, which is very dangerous. Closing eyes easily result in FAs or loss of visuals. Well you sure are quick to make assumptions. I don't think anything you said is a "duplicate", nor did I imply this. I was running late for work and thought you'd appreciate a link to a tutorial I had written if you hadn't already seen it. Also, you clearly did not read it carefully as you claim, as all three of your points were addressed in what was written. (You have a lot of good info to share, don't be so defensive, and I apologize if my intentions were unclear with the link I posted. Also I would be happy to add some of your input to the tutorial if you would like me to.)

[CosmicIron]

Well you sure are quick to make assumptions. I don't think anything you said is a "duplicate", nor did I imply this. I was running late for work and thought you'd appreciate a link to a tutorial I had written if you hadn't already seen it. Also, you clearly did not read it carefully as you claim, as all three of your points were addressed in what was written. (You have a lot of good info to share, don't be so defensive, and I apologize if my intentions were unclear with the link I posted. Also I would be happy to add some of your input to the tutorial if you would like me to.) Well then, that clarifies it, and I also apologize for being defensive. One of the reasons for my being unnecessarily sensative is the "MODERATOR" label under your user ID. It kinda made me think your comment was rather authoritative and represent the general consensus of the board... my bad... Please feel free to add some of the stuff into your article as I agree it is a more well-written piece. I was just too lazy to explain things in detail

[Sageous]

I don't know, CosmicIron... I read your OP, and, though I imagine all the things you say to do would work fine, I'm still a little puzzled. Wouldn't it be better to have an exciting, interesting, enlightening, etc.-ing LD for just a few seconds than to go through all that rigamarole to make the dream last a few moments longer? I'd rather experience the joy of a short LD than crawl around on the floor, shout, or touch small things to make it last longer. Is there a "length of LD" contest out there that I hadn't heard of? I don't know about you, but for me quality is always better than quantity. Another quick note about lengthening an LD that you may have left out: you can do all the crawling you want, but if you lack proper self-awareness, your LD will fade regardless. Also, I pretty much break every one of your rules in every LD and never practice stabilizing techniques, yet my LD's are often very long (lasting hours, sometimes). How can this be? Could it be because I'm simply enjoying the moment rather than being concerned about how long that moment lasts? So I guess your advice is solid enough, but I fear it's missing the whole point of LD'ing: To have fun, learn, and grow. To make it a chore to stay lucid might be to make LD'ing a miserable thing, rather than the wonder it is. Think about it. Just my opinion; take it or leave it.

[Hukif]

Agreed with Sageous. Plus I find a few problems with some of your techs. For example, focusing on something external may make the dream seem more real but it will also make the dream body go away for some people and end their lucidity or they won't enjoy it like normal. Even more so since you say rational thought should be avoided... what if someone is having a lucid nightmare? Abandon logic and suffer the lucid instead of ground yourself and evade the nightmare? Then there is the problem of physical body, I find it that not only it becomes easier to control my own dream body if I am aware of my waking body, but also if I do wake up inducing a DEILD/WILD is very easy because of said awareness.

[CosmicIron]

I don't know, CosmicIron... I read your OP, and, though I imagine all the things you say to do would work fine, I'm still a little puzzled. Wouldn't it be better to have an exciting, interesting, enlightening, etc.-ing LD for just a few seconds than to go through all that rigamarole to make the dream last a few moments longer? I'd rather experience the joy of a short LD than crawl around on the floor, shout, or touch small things to make it last longer. Is there a "length of LD" contest out there that I hadn't heard of? I don't know about you, but for me quality is always better than quantity. Another quick note about lengthening an LD that you may have left out: you can do all the crawling you want, but if you lack proper self-awareness, your LD will fade regardless. Also, I pretty much break every one of your rules in every LD and never practice stabilizing techniques, yet my LD's are often very long (lasting hours, sometimes). How can this be? Could it be because I'm simply enjoying the moment rather than being concerned about how long that moment lasts? So I guess your advice is solid enough, but I fear it's missing the whole point of LD'ing: To have fun, learn, and grow. To make it a chore to stay lucid might be to make LD'ing a miserable thing, rather than the wonder it is. Think about it. Just my opinion; take it or leave it. How can you "enjoy" a lucid dream if it only lasts minutes, if not seconds, especially after you have put in great effort to make it happen? I simply do not see the logic behind that. Let’s face this – pre-mature termination of lucid dreams and abrupt false awakenings during an LD is common among even very experienced lucid dreamers. The stabilization routines provided here do not take long to execute, but they will immensely extend the duration of the dream, and at the same time, help increase the user's lucidity, self-awareness (which as you pointed out is an important factor for the overall experience), and quality of the dream constructs. From your saying you are essentially declaring the entire subject (extending lucid dreams durations) unnecessary, which I have to disagree. The truth is, not all LDers have 2k+ lucid dreams in their life, and they can certainly benefit from every bit and pieces of information which may help them extend the duration of their precious lucid dreams. As a side note, I do not know how you manage having very long LDs while NEVER practice any stabilizing techniques. To my knowledge, even the most experienced LDers need the help of stabilization techniques; they just sometimes perform them intuitively, like a second nature. I have had many thousands of LDs throughout 20+ years of research and practice, yet I cannot make such bold claim that stabilization techniques are unnecessary. If you have a secret to that then please share with us. BTW, I have never seen ANYONE, despite the fact that I have worked with thousands of LDers, with the ability to have LDs that last "hours" – from a physiological point of view it is simply not possible. Again, you must have a secret if what you are saying is accurate.

[CosmicIron]

Agreed with Sageous. Plus I find a few problems with some of your techs. For example, focusing on something external may make the dream seem more real but it will also make the dream body go away for some people and end their lucidity or they won't enjoy it like normal. Even more so since you say rational thought should be avoided... what if someone is having a lucid nightmare? Abandon logic and suffer the lucid instead of ground yourself and evade the nightmare? Then there is the problem of physical body, I find it that not only it becomes easier to control my own dream body if I am aware of my waking body, but also if I do wake up inducing a DEILD/WILD is very easy because of said awareness. Let me first say this: lucid dreams are very personal experiences, thus they may differ greatly among individuals. Something that works or not works for you may not apply to everyone, and vice versa. Therefore, what I said in this article may not be useful to you in particular, but that does not mean it won't work for others. In fact, I've taught thousands of people how to LD and these are exactly the same tips I have been giving them, and the results have been positive. Besides, most of these tips are not my original inventions, and many are being used widely. Focusing on external objects does NOT make dream body go away. Lack of physical and visual stimulus does that, and that's exactly the problem addressed by stabilization techniques. Another special case is when experiencing higher state of consciousness, but that's different topic. As for restraining rational thoughts -- people often confuse lucidity/awareness with logics. A high degree of awareness will give you a quality LD, and often lights the path to higher state of consciousness. However, a high degree of logics will likely just return you to the waking state. Being aware of the physical body is the most common method used in astral projection for returning to one’s physical body. For example, many users accidentally wake up themselves when trying to "open their eyes" in the event of disappearing visuals. Why does that happen? Very simply, when they thought about their eyes, which really there is no such a thing in a lucid dream, their focus returns to their physical body in an instant. Sometimes this result in false awakenings, but people may have difficulty identifying them. Also I do not understand what you are saying about inducing DEILD/WILD. What is the point of that if you are already having a lucid dream?

[Hukif]

Uh, the using senses is common stabilization yes. And I said some people, I know some guys who can't go all into full-detail visuals right after the dream start or it will go away. Not true with logic, why don't you try the lucid nightmare? There is an huge difference between abandoning logic and keeping your mind calm, which seems to be what you are referring to. Well I don't believe AP to be real, so that point is moot in my case (And yes, I have tried it). Also after some experiments with online people, the eye problem seems to be more placebo than reality for dreams, a lot of people who had never heard of such a thing as dream/waking body could close/open eyes without any problems, but as soon as they read about it opening waking eyes the problem started. The point is that not only can you start with a fresh mind, but also with the full intent to stabilize and have a longer dream because of REM-chaining. Also what you said to sageous about hour-lucids, I know a girl who got insomnia problems, so she goes without sleeping for a few days and then the rebound allows for the hour-lucids with ease, it isn't impossible, just not very healthy/normal. In your OP it seems like you were making sweep statements, which just doesn't works for dreaming just like you pointed out in your last post. I have helped a lot of people too, doesn't means that I am right or wrong though.

[CosmicIron]

Uh, the using senses is common stabilization yes. And I said some people, I know some guys who can't go all into full-detail visuals right after the dream start or it will go away. . I'm not sure I understand what you meant. As for logic, you don't need it to identify a nightmare. Simply knowing that you are dreaming will do the trick. And no I'm not referring to keeping mind calm. I'm referring to "awareness". Whether AP is real or not is not the issue. The fact that by focusing on your physical body wakes you up is what I'm trying to explain here. Again, I'm not sure I understand what you meant by saying "a lot of people who had never heard of such a thing as dream/waking body". It is common for lucid dreamers to worry about inadvertently moving their physical bodies and thus waking themselves up, yet that mere worry would cause it to happen because of the focus shift to the physcial body. The eye problem is meant to be an example. Same applies to other body parts such as hands, feet, and etc. People often wake up from using too much force or longer range of motions because they suddenly begin to worry about involving their physical bodies. Your case of the girl with insomnia and accumlated REMs creating long LDs is interesting, but you understand that is a special case don't you? And as for saying I'm making sweep statements I find it to be not only untrue, but disturbing. The whole point of the article is trying to help the average LDers to have a better experience. What is wrong with that? You can disagree with my techniques, but declaring the entire subject to be useless fits the very description of a "sweep statement."

[Hukif]

Oh, that I know some guys who upon reaching lucidity, must try to NOT use their senses on the dream, even more so visuals or it will go third person and they will have an high chance of losing the dream. Simply being lucid will tell you its a dream, it won't let you escape fears because you won't go into the logical explanation that it can't harm you since it is a dream and your real body is safe in bed, by what you described. It is common? The only common trend I see is in forums or blogs, where the teacher tells them what stuff works for them and placebo hits their dream. Really, not me nor anyone I know that were not feed the "feeling your real body in a dream will wake you up" or "closing your eyes will wake you up" stuff don't have a problem with it. Then again, thats just my personal experience. Also why would you worry about that if you use logic? "My dream is paralyzed in waking, not to worry" seems like a simple thought process to me, no reason to worry or make extra problems there. Ofc I do, but you said it was impossible, just pointing that with dreams ruling out or making sweep statements never works. Or at least, I haven't seen it work for anything as of yet. And who said the entire subject was useless? I posted the points I disagree with and explained why, I don't believe that everyone will experience dreams in the same way I do so it isn't useless at all. And I do think ruling logic out of the dream can be bad for some people, along with the body thingy, especially for those who do the kind of RCs I do, because not only do I stabilize while using it, but estimulate logic and body-awareness while using it and that's how I get most of my lucids, and know the RC works for some others too. But as I said before, that it helps some people doesn't makes me right or wrong, just another lucid dreamer.

[Sageous]

Well, CosmicIron, clearly I did not realize I was speaking to a LD'ing authority, and should have tempered my opinions in deference to your great experience, or perhaps not spoken at all. Shame on me! But speak I did, so I'll respond; I'm sorry in advance if my experiences do not correspond directly to yours, and apparently the thousands of LD'ers you've worked with in your long career. How can you "enjoy" a lucid dream if it only lasts minutes, if not seconds, especially after you have put in great effort to make it happen? I simply do not see the logic behind that. I never said there was logic in it, just that great things can happen in even the shortest of time spans -- unless you miss those great things because someone told you to crawl around on the floor to make your dream last longer. Also, if you truly put great, and correct, effort into your preparation for a LD session, odds are already excellent that you'll achieve commensurate results -- to put all that effort into the dream, and then to miss the experience of it because you're still busy putting in effort after the dream started seems a bit of a slap in the face to all that effort. I really am surprised that a person of your professed experience holds the opinion that there can be no value in a short LD. Truly odd. Let's face this; pre-mature termination of lucid dreams and abrupt false awakenings during an LD is common among even very experienced lucid dreamers. The stabilization routines provided here do not take long to execute, but they will immensely extend the duration of the dream, and at the same time, help increase the user's lucidity, self-awareness (which as you pointed out is an important factor for the overall experience), and quality of the dream constructs. All true, and I don't think I was disagreeing with any of that in the first place.... Save for one bit: can you share with us how stabilization routines increase self-awareness? I've found that most routine-based techniques (aka, all of them) tend to separate you from your self-awareness, not increase it. I suppose I could be wrong... From you're saying you are essentially declaring the entire subject (extending lucid dreams durations) unnecessary... As an end in itself, absolutely. If there is a way to extend the length of an LD without making the extension itself the priority, and I'm sure there are several, then have at it. But dropping everything for the sake of a few more seconds of a dream simply does not make sense to me... in fact, to me that seems counter-intuitive. The truth is, not all LDers have 2k+ lucid dreams in their life, and they can certainly benefit from every bit and pieces of information which may help them extend the duration of their precious lucid dreams. Fair enough, and certainly true. I was simply tying to point out -- especially to the folks whose LD's might only last a few seconds -- that all is not lost if their dreams are short. Extend away, but don't abandon the glory of the dream for the sake of a few more seconds of crawling on the floor. It's the LD that is precious, and not its duration. Now that I think about it, to tell newbies that their dreams must be long to be significant is both disingenuous and potentially hazardous to their development. That doesn't seem like a good thing to me. As a side note, I do not know how you manage having very long LDs while NEVER practice any stabilizing techniques. To my knowledge, even the most experienced LDers need the help of stabilization techniques; they just sometimes perform them intuitively, like a second nature. I have had many thousands of LDs throughout 20+ years of research and practice, yet I cannot make such bold claim that stabilization techniques are unnecessary. If you have a secret to that then please share with us. No secret. You could be right in that I am stabilizing somehow, intuitively, and have no idea I'm doing it. Personally, I don't believe that. I think it's more that in a strong LD I am comfortable with my presence in the dream and really don't even give much thought to losing lucidity. After all, if my lucidity is strong and I lose it (which happens a lot), I am confident, in the dream, that I'll gain it back shortly (which also happens a lot). This "ability" comes, I think, not from some secret technique but from a careful lifelong development of self-awareness and memory, and a certain blending of those things with confidence and expectation before and during the dream. Also, I don't consider it a "bold claim" to say there's no real need to crawl on the floor, shout, abandon reason, and all those other things just to have a LD of decent length. Not so bold at all, I think; maybe even a bit pedestrian. Indeed, it's really odd that this has never occurred to you over those many thousands of LD's and while working with all those thousands of LD'ers...you'd think my approach would have popped up somewhere. BTW, I have never seen ANYONE, despite the fact that I have worked with thousands of LDers, with the ability to have LDs that last "hours"; from a physiological point of view it is simply not possible. Again, you must have a secret if what you are saying is accurate. Wow. I've "worked" with maybe a hundred actual LD'ers in my life, with only a small handful of them being arguably advanced, and yet quite a few have had LD's that lasted for an hour or more -- some as long as four or five hours. Perhaps you're moving in the wrong circles? I really don't know what to say here, as your stance is very confusing. Someone with the experience you profess to have should be an adept at stretching the outer limits of a REM cycle alone by now; not denying, in caps, the possibility of doing it. You must know by now that a REM cycle can last an hour on its own if you've got enough hours of sleep behind you. Yet you do not; very odd. That leads me to how very long LD's work, physiologically: yes, your REM cycles limit dream time, but it is possible to "jump" REM cycles, especially during LD sessions occurring after at least eight hours of sleep. How? By sensing that wakefulness is coming soon (I usually hear my breath, or my white noise machine in the background of the dream), and preparing to "hold on" to your dream and self-awareness while the brief pause of wakefulness passes. This is not hard to do, with practice, and is very similar to the DEILD technique. So, physiologically, you can both bypass the sleep cycle and potentially extend REM for quite some time beyond "natural" limits. Again, I find it odd that someone with your vast experience does not know this, since a lot of us do it all the time. It is not a secret. I understand that you feel that these techniques have value, CosmicIron; and they certainly do. But to decide for us all that they are the only solution and all others, regardless of others' experience, must be wrong, and then to assume for us that our opinions are wrong seems sort of short-sighted, and not indicative of the experience you claim to have. Odd

[Sageous]

Hukif, Though your whole post was good, I felt that just a bit of it bears repeating: It is common? The only common trend I see is in forums or blogs, where the teacher tells them what stuff works for them and placebo hits their dream. Really, not me nor anyone I know that were not feed the "feeling your real body in a dream will wake you up" or "closing your eyes will wake you up" stuff don't have a problem with it. Then again, thats just my personal experience. Also why would you worry about that if you use logic? "My dream is paralyzed in waking, not to worry" seems like a simple thought process to me, no reason to worry or make extra problems there. Ofc I do, but you said it was impossible, just pointing that with dreams ruling out or making sweep statements never works. Or at least, I haven't seen it work for anything as of yet. Full agreement, both points, and I think your first point may well be what all my words were driving at...

[dakotahnok]

Very nice post. You are correct in everything in that every technique works. I have used a variation of each of these at least once with success. Thank you for posting.

[USA]

Last night I had an hour+ long lucid! I remember specifically using the floor crawl technique, I don't know if that kept me lucid or my constant nose RCing. Probably both, but thank you for your tips anyway!

[nina]

Wouldn't it be better to have an exciting, interesting, enlightening, etc.-ing LD for just a few seconds than to go through all that rigamarole to make the dream last a few moments longer? I'd rather experience the joy of a short LD than crawl around on the floor, shout, or touch small things to make it last longer. Is there a "length of LD" contest out there that I hadn't heard of? I don't know about you, but for me quality is always better than quantity. Sageous, no disrespect intended, but I find it difficult to understand your logic in disfavoring stabilization techniques. In fact, I can't help thinking that what you've said is a bit contradictory. You appreciate how amazing a few seconds of an LD can be, yet scoff at the idea of spending a few more seconds to stabilize the LD, in order to obtain even more seconds of lucid wonder. When you feel your LD fading out, maybe you just let yourself wake up, but for me personally, taking a few seconds to use a stabilization technique, and then extending the LD for another 10 minutes or so, is worth it to me...and I consider it one hell of a pay off. So I guess your advice is solid enough, but I fear it's missing the whole point of LD'ing: To have fun, learn, and grow. To make it a chore to stay lucid might be to make LD'ing a miserable thing, rather than the wonder it is. Think about it. It's certainly not missing the point, in fact, it exists solely to allow LDers to be able to spend more time doing exactly what they love, having fun, learning, and growing in LDs. How is taking 5 seconds to stabilize, then getting several minutes of amazing lucid as a result of stabilizing..."miserable". BTW, I have never seen ANYONE, despite the fact that I have worked with thousands of LDers, with the ability to have LDs that last "hours" – from a physiological point of view it is simply not possible. Again, you must have a secret if what you are saying is accurate. Actually, it IS possible, and I've done it, many times. I have had nights where I spent up to 4 hours at a time lucid dreaming. This is possible physiologically because REM is not the ONLY time that we dream. People can also dream in NREM, the dreams are just no where near as vivid or dreamlike as REM, but there have been many times when I have been lucid dreaming for a whole REM period, then enter a period of NREM, and continue to dream, and during NREM I seem to have a lot of OBE-type dreams, but I stay completely lucid and eventually enter another REM period, which usually comes quickly (I think I am somehow forcing my brain into REM by focusing on forming a dream and stimulating certain areas of my brain). The longest I have done this for is 4 hours, and I've done it several times. But during that 4 hours I used stabilization techniques quite often...sometimes every minute, sometimes every 5, 15, or 30 minutes, depending on where I am in my REM cycle and how easy it is for my mind to remain in the dream. But again, what's a few seconds...when this means your dream is going to last another several seconds, minutes, or hours? I cannot understand why anyone would chose NOT to use stabilization methods, unless they can magically have lucid dreams that last hours with using any stabilization methods...in which case, they would be an exception, as I have never heard of this before. But dropping everything for the sake of a few more seconds of a dream simply does not make sense to me... in fact, to me that seems counter-intuitive....Extend away, but don't abandon the glory of the dream for the sake of a few more seconds of crawling on the floor. It's the LD that is precious, and not its duration. I don't think you understand. This is not for the sake of a few more seconds of crawling on the floor, or in my case, examining my hands or using verbal commands...it is because the stabilization technique will allow you to remain in your precious LD for even longer, and increase its clarity. When I sense my LD fading out, that I'm going to wake up, or things become blurry, I use a stabilization technique, and instead of waking up...I am then able to remain in my LD for several more minutes, and as a result of stabilization, the LD is also crystal clear, extremely vivid and highly enjoyable. So what you label as counter-intuitive, is very counter-intuitive to me. That leads me to how very long LD's work, physiologically: yes, your REM cycles limit dream time, but it is possible to "jump" REM cycles, especially during LD sessions occurring after at least eight hours of sleep. How? By sensing that wakefulness is coming soon (I usually hear my breath, or my white noise machine in the background of the dream), and preparing to "hold on" to your dream and self-awareness while the brief pause of wakefulness passes. This is not hard to do, with practice, and is very similar to the DEILD technique. So, physiologically, you can both bypass the sleep cycle and potentially extend REM for quite some time beyond "natural" limits. Again, I find it odd that someone with your vast experience does not know this, since a lot of us do it all the time. It is not a secret. While I dislike your overall sardonic tone towards CosmicIron, I agree with what you've said here.

[Sageous]

Nina: First, an apology: I'm sorry that your first post to me had to be one forged in negativity; I really like reading your posts, and had hoped that we would meet under more happy conditions. I'm also sorry that you wasted so many words on something I have no real problem with -- my problem was with CosmicIron's overall stance and attitude, and I was trying to dig beneath it; I'm fine with stabilization techniques and, as Mr. Iron noted above, I even practice them myself. Now: Sageous, no disrespect intended, but I find it difficult to understand your logic in disfavoring stabilization techniques. In fact, I can't help thinking that what you've said is a bit contradictory. You appreciate how amazing a few seconds of an LD can be, yet scoff at the idea of spending a few more seconds to stabilize the LD, in order to obtain even more seconds of lucid wonder. When you feel your LD fading out, maybe you just let yourself wake up, but for me personally, taking a few seconds to use a stabilization technique, and then extending the LD for another 10 minutes or so, is worth it to me...and I consider it one hell of a pay off. Don't worry, I'm fairly immune to offense. As I already said, I do not disfavor stabilization techniques -- any process that can extend the experience of an LD is most welcome, and would be worth mastering. What I disfavored was CosmicIron's contention that the stabilization technique was all that mattered. It seemed to me -- and he did not deny -- that he thought it was more important to stabilize the dream than it was to participate in it. That deserved comment, I thought. In the name of consistency, if you've read my posts here, you'll remember that I have often voiced my concern about making techniques -- especially WILD -- the goal, rather than using them as a tool for lucidity. I consistently have no problem with the tools of the trade -- I use them (all, apparently) all the time, but I do have a problem, and will shout about it every time, when I see those tools turned into the trade. That is wrong, and possibly very misdirecting. All I could imagine was some 14-year-old newbie leaving behind his newfound interest in lucid dreaming because he thought it would be something more than crawling on the floor and staring at small objects. So I asked the question: which is more important, a great short LD, or a slightly longer LD where the only thing brought home from it is a 10-minute struggle to stay lucid? My bad, I suppose, but I'm likely to do it again. So no, I do not scoff the idea of spending a little more time in a LD, I value that deeply, and using stabilization techniques as you describe them -- as tools for extending the LD -- is a most welcome thing. I may not use those techniques myself (and have a real problem with things like abandoning reason, ignoring my sleeping body, and, of course, potentially disrupting the entire fabric of the dream by crawling on the floor), but that doesn't mean I don't think the idea of stabilization is a good thing -- which I believe I said somewhere up there. No, I scoff at those who raise techniques above the dream, and tell me I'm wrong for asking why this is so. It's certainly not missing the point, in fact, it exists solely to allow LDers to be able to spend more time doing exactly what they love, having fun, learning, and growing in LDs. How is taking 5 seconds to stabilize, then getting several minutes of amazing lucid as a result of stabilizing..."miserable"? It is not, and if CosmicIron had offered that paragraph to me, my posts here would have been much different. Again, I understand stabilization, and 5 seconds -- even 10 -- of it to add another 10 minutes of dream seem a no-brainer. Had CosmicIron responded that succinctly, without lecturing me about how wrong I was and how right he was because of all his thousands of LD's and all the thousands of LD'ers he'd "worked with," and then deem my "claim" of long LD's a lie, I likely would have done a mea culpa and stepped away. But he did not, and I did not. Sorry for that -- but it really had nothing to do with stabilization. Also, it would have been nice, I suppose, if I had succeeded in making my point that there are such things as excellent short LD's and they can be forgotten if overridden by attempts to ressucitate them. Not sure it would have made a difference here, but it would have been nice. Actually, it IS possible, and I've done it, many times. I have had nights where I spent up to 4 hours at a time lucid dreaming. This is possible physiologically because REM is not the ONLY time that we dream. People can also dream in NREM, the dreams are just no where near as vivid or dreamlike as REM, but there have been many times when I have been lucid dreaming for a whole REM period, then enter a period of NREM, and continue to dream, and during NREM I seem to have a lot of OBE-type dreams, but I stay completely lucid and eventually enter another REM period, which usually comes quickly (I think I am somehow forcing my brain into REM by focusing on forming a dream and stimulating certain areas of my brain). The longest I have done this for is 4 hours, and I've done it several times. Thank you. I hope that CosmicIron is still reading, and wonder if he will contradict you as well, in the same tone. But during that 4 hours I used stabilization techniques quite often...sometimes every minute, sometimes every 5, 15, or 30 minutes, depending on where I am in my REM cycle and how easy it is for my mind to remain in the dream. But again, what's a few seconds...when this means your dream is going to last another several seconds, minutes, or hours? I cannot understand why anyone would chose NOT to use stabilization methods, unless they can magically have lucid dreams that last hours with using any stabilization methods...in which case, they would be an exception, as I have never heard of this before. I think I've said this enough, and I'm not sure if you're still reading, but: I agree completely with everything you say here. I am truly sorry that I led you to believe that I choose not to use stabilization methods -- I use them often. My methods may be much different than those listed, but that does not mean there is anything wrong with those listed (except where I noted already). Again, what I chose was to make the dream, and my experience of it, the priority, and nothing more. If that experience can be extended by a bit of hand-rubbing, then fine, rub away...but if the hand-rubbing becomes the dream, then I think a question ought to be raised. I don't think you understand. This is not for the sake of a few more seconds of crawling on the floor, or in my case, examining my hands or using verbal commands...it is because the stabilization technique will allow you to remain in your precious LD for even longer, and increase its clarity. When I sense my LD fading out, that I'm going to wake up, or things become blurry, I use a stabilization technique, and instead of waking up...I am then able to remain in my LD for several more minutes, and as a result of stabilization, the LD is also crystal clear, extremely vivid and highly enjoyable. So what you label as counter-intuitive, is very counter-intuitive to me. I do understand. You. Had CosmicIron used your words and tone, I likely would never have posted. While I dislike your overall sardonic tone towards CosmicIron, I agree with what you've said here. For what it's worth, I disliked my overall sardonic tone too; sometimes it is unavoidable, at least for me. Sorry again for eliciting all those words from you, Nina, they were not, in the end necessary (though they certainly were appreciated). And, if you're still with me, sorry you had to read all these words here, as I feel I spent most of my time repeating myself. I fear that I may have wasted all of our time by reacting poorly to CosmicIron; I'll try next time to leave things like this lie.

[nina]

Well in that case, Sageous, we are pretty much in complete agreement regarding all points you've made, thank you for clarifying.