Conciously Influencing your SUB-Concious?

I was wondering if there were any ways of deliberately influencing your subconcious mind so that they may pick up certain things that then might return in dreams.

I know that the Sub-Concious mind is very unpredictable in what it does/thinks
However there IS one Technique used by Marketeers in American MovieTheatres that Penetrates the Subconcious Mind:

Subliminal Messaging:
While people are watching a movie on the big screen, the words DRINK COLA and EAT POPCORN would be projected on the screen for only a split second: Not noticable by your concious mind, but your SUB-concious mind defenitely picks it up: people actually go and get some popcorn and cola in the break.

The Subliminal Message reached people's subconcious minds giving them an urge for a cold coke and some pocorn withour being conciously aware of it.

Now WHAT if one could DEVELOP this technique to incubate things into one's Dream?
Perhaps a new Technique to be developed to Incubate scenes, characters and LDsigns in your dreams? Anyone with Suggestions? I'm all open to them

People have been doing Hypnosis and Auto Suggestion for hundreds of years. Tons of books and articles on the subject.

Yes, for a while there was some interest in Subliminal This and That ... with marketeers because it was a form of deception and what salesmen wouldn't want to engage in a new and improved form of deception? But all other applications for Subliminal Suggestion were awkward and inefficient as they were indirect. It makes no sense to hide the message. A Suggestion is not less powerful because it is as well understood by the conscious mind as the unconscious.

For instance, with fat people. having a subliminal recording of waves crashing and birds chirping where some mixed in hissing and telling one "stop being such a gross pig, and you won't exactly waste away if you skip the french fries and the double deserts with every meal". Might that help. Well, yes, if we really think that the brain will go through all the trouble of decoding the waves crashing and the birds chirping. But a lot of evidence says that many times it is ignored. But if you put a bunch of fat people into a room and hit them repeatedly with the message, in plain English and over a loud speaker, that thay are a bunch of gross pigs and should assert some positive behavior to stop being such pigs... well, they will hate it and feel insulted, but if one examines their subsequent eating habits over the next 72 hours, then guess what? Conscious Suggestion works much better then hidden suggestion.

Then there is the case of people who themselves spend good money of Subliminal Tapes -- "Quit Smoking", "Slim Down", "Lucid Dreaming", etc. For a person to purchase such a thing and then to use it is Suggestion in and of itself. Such 'Subliminal Tapes' can all come out of the same pile and be just as effective... their usefullness is not from any of their content, but from the intent and practice of their use.

so it is with an "technique". Techniques, generically, have two avenues for effectiveness -- the technique could perhaps access some true corresponding dynamics and physically fascilitate what one is attempting to do. Or the 'technique' could be simply a form of Suggestion -- "If I jump up and down on one foot at sun set, then I will stop smoking, become thin and attractive, and have Lucid Dreams. The Positive Energy and Effort put into the planning and execution of one-legged jumping at sunset might be just the thing to remind one to put down the cigerettes, to walk past the refigerator, and to spontaneously go Lucid within a dream.

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Subliminal Messaging:
While people are watching a movie on the big screen, the words DRINK COLA and EAT POPCORN would be projected on the screen for only a split second: Not noticable by your concious mind, but your SUB-concious mind defenitely picks it up: people actually go and get some popcorn and cola in the break.
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This reminds me of something the English psychologist Derren Brown did to try and prove that this subliminal technique worked. He included an advert before a film in a cinema which was stuffed with subliminal messages commanding the viewers to forget the film completely ( the film was Ocean's 12). People were asked as they walked from the cinema what the movie was about. Almost three quarters had no idea, claiming they couldn't remember anything.

So I totally believe subliminal messaging works. I'm sure what you're suggesting is possible, but I wouldn't know how to go about doing it?

The credibility of Derren Brown is questionable. As is that of subliminal messaging.

I think this has been discussed before. There is a computer program (many i'm sure) that will flash subliminal messages accross your screen. I think I may have heard that because it's a computer screen you may see the messages too long I know on my screen I can see the message but can't read the entire thing. So it may still work. Google it because I can't remember the name. It's free.

Whenever one hears of any remarkable stories regarding the power of any form of suggestion or hypnosis, one should bare in mind that the story is either not true, extremely exaggerated, or set up by professionals.

Professional Hypnotists are extremely experienced in being able to pick out of a crowd those personality types who will CONSCIOUSLY play along.

As for real work-a-day Suggestion, be it Subliminal Suggestion, or hypnotherapy, then results will be largely as we know and expect they will be. Influences are not absolute, but indeed amount to only Suggestions.

In the Ocean's Twelve example... the people did not forget the movie but were simply given an excuse to blow off annoying interviewers.

Regarding buying specific purchases. Well, what else would people buy at the Cinema but popcorn and coke. However, somebody who never buys anything at the Movies, as movies are expensive enough by themselves, will NOT be influenced by suggestions to buy... unless negatively... to be annoyed with whatever reel contained the Sublininal Suggestion.

The Russian Military had tried to incorporate Subliminal Suggestion into their training and indoctrination program. And then, of course, Washington copycatted Moscow and the Pentagon was up and running with Subliminal Suggestion for its murderers, rapists, and abusive prison guards. Obviously to little effect. Both Super Powers dropped the programs as uneffective.

So, despite all the amazing stories that still circulate about Subliminal Suggestion, whenever it has been tried systematically and on a broad scale, it has always disappointed expectations.. to the point of coming in at a loss... that the cost of its implementation could not be recovered by any marked benefit or profit.

Perhaps it was all hype, then. The Lucid Dreaming Community should know all about hype, shouldn't it?

Just because the Subliminal Messaging program wasn't a good means of getting what the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. wanted to do with it doesn't mean it cannot be usefull in other uses such as perhaps Lucid Dreaming.

In my dreamworld things look somewhat LIKE reality...only ;Like the details of various memories of different scenes IRL are all mixed up and re-arranged into the virtual dreamworld.

It's this that leads me to believe that the Visual world of dreams is built from visual details that are very well stored in our subconcious mind.( When looking at people taking hypnotherapy and under deep hypnosis reliving the past you can see how stunningly acurate the subconcious mind remembers scenes and events in sharp detail)

Now the details of the visual memories that build the dreamscene are sublime shards and impressions of your enviroment you have stored in your memory. They are lots of different, very tiny details of reality put together in a random order to create the virtual dreamworld.

I wonder if that free subliminal messaging software is able to flash self made Images too. I wonder what effect it might have on my dreams if I Drew a room with red walls and candles and subliminally flashed that image. Would it linger around in the back of my mind? Well I donn't know..that's why I'm going to try. And I want to experiment more with this Subliminal Messaging.

I think like this:
If you see or hear anything that's ''odd'' ''out of the ordinary'' ''stands out'' ''doesn't match'' with the environment, you will (unconsciously) pay more attention to it.

Eg.: You walk through the streets, you look around you, and suddenly a UFO appears 1 meter above you.

You will most likely remember the UFO because WTF?! that never happens? AND THEY"RE ALIENS!!!

However, would you remember that the person across the street had an odd purple coat with white dots all over it? No, as the ''UFO" stood out, it imprinted that.

I believe it's possible to imprint stuff into the subconscious like this, ''focus'' on stuff you want to imprint, and just let the rest kinda glide along.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont
Whenever one hears of any remarkable stories regarding the power of any form of suggestion or hypnosis, one should bare in mind that the story is either not true, extremely exaggerated, or set up by professionals.

Professional Hypnotists are extremely experienced in being able to pick out of a crowd those personality types who will CONSCIOUSLY play along.

As for real work-a-day Suggestion, be it Subliminal Suggestion, or hypnotherapy, then results will be largely as we know and expect they will be. Influences are not absolute, but indeed amount to only Suggestions.

In the Ocean's Twelve example... the people did not forget the movie but were simply given an excuse to blow off annoying interviewers.

Regarding buying specific purchases. Well, what else would people buy at the Cinema but popcorn and coke. However, somebody who never buys anything at the Movies, as movies are expensive enough by themselves, will NOT be influenced by suggestions to buy... unless negatively... to be annoyed with whatever reel contained the Sublininal Suggestion.

The Russian Military had tried to incorporate Subliminal Suggestion into their training and indoctrination program. And then, of course, Washington copycatted Moscow and the Pentagon was up and running with Subliminal Suggestion for its murderers, rapists, and abusive prison guards. Obviously to little effect. Both Super Powers dropped the programs as uneffective.

So, despite all the amazing stories that still circulate about Subliminal Suggestion, whenever it has been tried systematically and on a broad scale, it has always disappointed expectations.. to the point of coming in at a loss... that the cost of its implementation could not be recovered by any marked benefit or profit.

Perhaps it was all hype, then. The Lucid Dreaming Community should know all about hype, shouldn't it?

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I think it's funny how your reason for discrediting sublimnal messaging is becuase the US and Russian military found it as uneffective (yes it's your only reason becuase "the people did not forget the movie but were simply given an excuse to blow off annoying interviewers" is not a fact but mearly your opinion).

The fact is subliminal messaging does work for some people, and whether it really works or it only works becuase the person wants it to doesn't matter. All that matters is that it works for those people.

I think the lucid dreaming community has a right to lucid dreaming. When you say things like you did it this post, you take that right away. What if someone (who subliminal messaging works on) reads your posts and is silly enough to belive what you said and never has another lucid dream becuase they don't belive in subliminal messaging anymore and that was the only way they could go lucid all becuase of said?

Now there's nothing wrong with stating your opinions or beliefs, but please leave it at that, don't say your way is right and everyone else is wrong because that is most certainly not the case.

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Originally posted by Jlick


The fact is subliminal messaging does work for some people, and whether it really works or it only works becuase the person wants it to doesn't matter. All that matters is that it works for those people.

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But ANYTHNG would work for such suggestible people, but BETTER modes of Suggestion would work BETTER. .

Subliminal Suggestion is complicated, elaborate, indirect, and REJECTED BY EVERY MAJOR SPONSOR THAT STUDIED IT FOR EFFECTIVENESS AND EFFICIENCY.

Reading a Suggestive Book would be better. Affirmation woud be better. Autohypnosis would be better. Writing a list of suggestion would be better. Talking to your Fat Mother would be better. ANYTHING is better then subliminal suggestion.

Yes, it works for some people, but anything else would work better.

Anyway you figure it, subliminal suggestion is wasting people's time and money that could be spent doing or paying for something BETTER.

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Originally posted by Jlick
I think it's funny how your reason for discrediting sublimnal messaging is becuase the US and Russian military found it as uneffective (yes it's your only reason becuase "the people did not forget the movie but were simply given an excuse to blow off annoying interviewers" is not a fact but mearly your opinion).

The fact is subliminal messaging does work for some people, and whether it really works or it only works becuase the person wants it to doesn't matter. All that matters is that it works for those people.

I think the lucid dreaming community has a right to lucid dreaming. When you say things like you did it this post, you take that right away. What if someone (who subliminal messaging works on) reads your posts and is silly enough to belive what you said and never has another lucid dream becuase they don't belive in subliminal messaging anymore and that was the only way they could go lucid all becuase of said?

Now there's nothing wrong with stating your opinions or beliefs, but please leave it at that, don't say your way is right and everyone else is wrong because that is most certainly not the case.

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thanx I was about to say so myself :wink: Leo, it wouldn't hurt to be a little less sceptic and a little more openminded to suggestions of others. You for some reason believe Subliminal messaging isn't very likely to have any effect. and thus you rule out any possibility of there being some truth in this.

You don't know if something works untill you yourself have fully examened it, right? that's what my purpose is with this topic. to find out.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont
Reading a Suggestive Book would be better. Affirmation woud be better. Autohypnosis would be better. Writing a list of suggestion would be better. Talking to your Fat Mother would be better. ANYTHING is better then subliminal suggestion.

Yes, it works for some people, but anything else would work better.

Anyway you figure it, subliminal suggestion is wasting people's time and money that could be spent doing or paying for something BETTER.

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I love you already. And how do you know that EVERYTHING is litterally better than Subliminal messaging? have you did any field research? man do you have Ph. D? Are you a professor.? or a Marketeer? :|

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Originally posted by SKA


thanx I was about to say so myself :wink: Leo, it wouldn't hurt to be a little less sceptic and a little more openminded to suggestions of others. You for some reason believe Subliminal messaging isn't very likely to have any effect. and thus you rule out any possibility of there being some truth in this.

You don't know if something works untill you yourself have fully examened it, right? that's what my purpose is with this topic. to find out.

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Jeez, Jlick, I'm frigging over 60 years old. I was trying Subliminal Suggestion five minutes after we heard of it from the Russians. What, you thought I was Bullshiting. I'm not being skeptical because I don't know about it but because I DO know about it.

The Russian Military, The American Military and Wall Street... and MYSELF... we all agree that the Advertising and Indoctrination Dollar or Rupal is better spent on ANYTHING but Subliminal Suggestion.

And regarding those remarkable reports we still hear about Subliminal Suggestion being unbeleivably effective. Well, its unbelieveable. We have all heard stories and rumors about how once reputable Scientists have falsified their Data once it was determined that their Grants and Studies depended upon Positive Findings. My, My. What some people will do for a paycheck so they can eat and pay rent. But it is true. Once Personal Interest is involved the data from any study is no longer to be considered reliable.

You see, in the old days most Research was done at the University Level and it was administered by Tenured Full Professors. Tenure means they have a guaranteed job at the top of their pay scale for life. A Tenured Professor is not afraid to turn in negative results and to report that hypothesis and promises fail to work out. But take these very same men and make them responsible for 3 or 4 thousand dollars worth of bills and mortgages each month, and then tell them that they will be entirely cut off unless Subliminal Suggestion is absolutely proven to work absolutely great, and guess what? Oh, Yeah "just look at these data sheets... I filled them out myself... you have my Scientific Word... now where's my Grant for $100,000." But can we believe it?

Once Science partnered up with Capitalism it quite had to give up all of its virtues in order to keep up with all of Capitalism's vices. As every drunken salesmen will tell you, and it is an art now being secretly imparted in every Graduate University Science Program that depends upon the largess of Capitalism, that it is not so important what the Truth is as what they can make people believe.

And look, they made these people believe that Subliminal Suggestion was effective. But we need to ask why their data is so different from everybody who actually tried to use Subliminal Suggestion in Real World Applications.

yes, if you buy a "Lose Weight Now" subliminal tape, you will cut back on food. And if you buy a "Quit Smoking Now" subliminal tape, then you will cut back on cigerettes. But guess what... you could mix the tapes up and they would still work to the same effectiveness. Or you could stick a "Donny and Mary" Tape in the package, or a "Captain and Teneel"... if the person thinks it is some magic Subliminal Tape, then the power of that suggestion alone will make it effective. However, if you play that same hyped up noise in an elevator or a baracks or anywhere where people are unaware that they are being suggested to then Subliminal Suggestion has been found in the field to be unaffective. If people do not know they are being suggested to, or don't know the suggestion or topic, then IT IS SIMPLY JUST SO MUCH NOISE. You see, the mechanism for its success is the Placebo Effect, but the trick with the Placego Effect is that people have to think something of proven effectiveness and potency is being given to them. Unexplained background noise simply does not cut it. But yes, I admit that the Scientists who were paid to find Subliminal Suggestion to be effective found Subliminal Suggestion to be very effective. And they did it before close of business Friday so they would have their entire weekend free to go boating and skiing. If you are going to sell your soul to the devil, you might as well enjoy the proceeds.

hmm sounds like you're in defence. I didn't attack your statements did I? You attacked my statements. that's okay :wink: But Let's stay on Topic: Conciously influencing the Sub-Concious Mind.
You're a lucid dreamer right? Do YOU have any suggestions as to how else one might be able to send messages that reach the subconcious mind? So as to incubate them in your dreams? If you do please share it with me.

Like last night I dreamt something very common for dreams: I have dreadlocks and I dreamt that some long pieces of dread came loose in my hands.

I wonder how did that piece of information get in there? How was it formed by the subconcious? What ''Archived Memory Images, smells, colours, details, sounds etc. did the subconcious mind use to construct this dreamreality? Like how did it all come together? and how can I perhaps influence the way it and eventually what comes together in my dreams? Share your thoughts

oh yes, you can definately do this!

remember that is is your conscious self that influences your subcon. so a change of habit or thought patterns will change the subcon too

Try bwgen (http://www.bwgen.com), the Self Hypnosis preset, or if you have a licensed version the Deep Self Hypnosis preset you can download from their library.

People have said that it's the key, the portal, whatever to consciously influencing your subconscious.

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Originally posted by juroara
oh yes, you can definately do this!

remember that is is your conscious self that influences your subcon. so a change of habit or thought patterns will change the subcon too

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Yeah I figured that out. But HOW and exactly WHAT the subconcious mind picks up and displays in our dreams is always rather unpredictable.
So perhaps we could Figure out the slightest bits of WHAT in our waking lives our subconcious minds picks out to display in our dreams and HOW and WHY it does. Try thinking of your previous dreams(Situations, Actions, Scenes, Characters, Emotions) and try Figuring out how that, usually seemingly nonsensical experience, got there...

If we were able to determine what, if only a few, things in waking life our subconcious stores and saves for dreams, we might be able to predict what specific details impressions and symbols from waking life might return to us in our dreams. This can then be used as a dreamsign to help you gain Lucidity.

I have family in Northern Israël who have had to to leave everything behind and flee to my Cousin in Tel Aviv where they're safer from Hezbollah Rocket and mortar fire. Now I know this is constantly on the back of the mind. And during the day I constantly catch myself thinking about it. Like it's on the background of my mind: So I was hoping that this subject was on my Subconcious Mind and might therefor Show up in my Dreams.
I have been trying to use Israël or anything Israël related as a dreamsign. I tried Thinking about this before falling asleep unconcious some nights:

If I found myself in Israël, or in ''some'' war Symbolical to the ongoing war in Northern Israël and Southern Libanon I should recognise it as a dreamsign and Ask myself wether I'm dreaming and to do an RC

Since I still have a totally blank dream recall I'll have to try it again when my Dream Recall has been trained and allows me to remember at least 1 dream at night.