Thread: The Infinite Universes of Lucid Dreaming

Questions and Answers:

This is just some of the questions that have come up in this topic.

______________

Originally Posted by calh

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

This proves my point fairly well.
Why would running be hard in lucid dreams? At most, it might not feel the same as real running, but it wouldn't be hard to do.

Just because you've never experienced flight (same as forgetting what it feels like) doesn't mean that you can't fly.
Think of the few times you've experience "flight-like" experiences:

• Roller coasters
• Airplanes
• Trampolines
• Swimming

How often does the average person do those things?
Probably a whole lot less often than the occasional sprint/run. But yet flight in lucid dreams is a common occurrence.


All that your doing when you over think lucid dreaming is putting barriers on yourself that are loosely based on real life logic.

______

Reading:

I have read things in lucid dreams more times than I can count.
All I had to do was realize that I was the reason I couldn't read. I had to think back to all those times I've read things in dreams (many), then realize that no fundamental laws of the dreamstate would change simply because I became "lucid".

Where does it stop? Yesterday we couldn't read, today we can't run... Tomorrow you'll find a way to logically explain why we shouldn't be able to breathe in the dreamstate.


If there are fundamental laws of the dreamstate (other than that it doesn't last forever), I have yet to find them, and I hope that if I ever do find them, I'll know enough to not take them as actual biological "laws", but merely things we must learn to work around.


The fact that you are actually conscious when lucid allows you to bypass the expectation that running will feel like your in water, or that flight is impossible.

{EDIT}

Originally Posted by calh

Yeah this brings up the question about why we don't "bust" our dreams more often. If something happens in a dream that is totally unrealistic, why do we go on with non-realistic explanations, such as logic from fantasy movies?

You take that logic as fact, because your schemata tells you to.

As your sitting watching a fantasy movie, your not steadily saying: "omg wtf, magic is impossible!".
Your letting your schemata that are in place specifically for fantasy movies take over. This allows you to sit and actually enjoy the things that if you saw in real life would blow your mind.

When dreaming, your mind interprets the random objects with the best possible schemata. Thus, if you were to see a bright light, your brain would go: "hmm, how often do we see a flash of bright blue light in real life? Very rarely. How often do we see it in one of these other groups of schemata? Fantasy, often."

Then your brain would proceed to use the group: "fantasy" to build the dream.


Remember that you've conditioned yourself to watch fantasy movies and not think twice about the logic behind them.
In the same way, your brain will build a crazy ass fantasy scene and not think twice about your current state of reality.

If you never watched/read fantasy, you would never have fantasy dreams.
Your mind would use other groups of schemata to form the dreams, and thus you would go on following other types of delusions all night long.


When you understand this, its much easier to understand why reality checks and things like Tibetan dream yoga work.

______________

Originally Posted by calh

There is just one thing that I need to clarify: Isn't it so that these infinite universes converge, that Frodo might draw a gun at you? And if they do converge, are they really worth separating?

In the normal universe that we always LD in, things can converge like that.
There are no rules that say: "Frodo can't draw a gun". In Tolkien's universe however (the one that he invented and wrote books about), guns simply do not exist.


Thus, if we were to visit Middle Earth in an LD and Frodo were to reach into his cloak and whip out a small shiny object, you would automatically know that it wasn't a gun; guns don't exist in that universe. He would have a dagger, or a potion, or maybe even a small lantern.

Its just not possible for Frodo to have a gun in that universe. They don't exist.


The universes can't simply "converge", because you know they can't affect one another.

_________________

When your walking around in any given universe and you see something that can't exist (ex. your in the movie: "300" and you see a car), you must rationalize that object using the rules of that universe.

Theres no way that could have been a car, cars don't exist here. Take another look, it was just your eyes playing tricks on you: theres horses in front of it, its a carriage.


The thing is, when your in that universe, you won't see a car. Your in no way expecting to see a car, because your in the year 50 BC.
As your walking around in that universe your only thinking about things in that universe.

Its all about "knowing" that things will not change. different "universes" are merely different rule-sets for reality (every universe has its own rule-set, and its own set of schemata that you will attribute towards it).


Do not expect to see things that shouldn't exist. Expect to see things that you know exist (within that universe).

______________

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

I'm still wondering if this great theory is more than a theory: has it worked for you? I don't think you've said yet whether this has allowed you to experience self-consistent, stable universes in your own LDs. Did I miss where you said that it works?

-Lux

Yes, it has worked for me in the several times I've gotten the chance to use it.

In my most recent lucid dream I became lucid in a park-like area where it was autumn time.
I did not do any "stabilization" techniques, I didn't yell "clarity now", or even study the ground. I simply became lucid and found myself in this strange, quiet, brisk, autumn-day universe.


The strangest thing happened. Since I "knew" that I couldn't lose lucidity, I didn't; even without doing any type of technique to "ground" myself. I walked around, looking at birds flying around in the trees and just generally relaxing.
Eventually I found this odd depression in the ground, it looked like a small crater or something. It was the perfect shape for me to lay on my back in, so I did.

For about a minute I lay there on my back with my eyes closed, just taking in the birdsong and gentle swishing of the trees; enjoying the cool wind as it blew over my face.

Eventually though my bladder started to hurt, and I decided it would probably be best to wake myself up.

_________________

Another example is from about a week ago. I had decided to test the limits of this technique.

I jumped through a mirror and found myself inside of a corner store. There was a riot outside.


For about ten minutes I unleashed hell upon hundreds of random DCs. Throwing fireballs, using superhuman strength, and many other "superpowers".
Again, I did not even once have to "stabilize" or "ground" my lucidity, and the dream was just as vivid as real life.

____

So yes, I have used this method of thought several times to induce some of the most incredible lucid dreams I've ever had.
Like I said in the topic post though, I've yet to visit Tolkien's universe yet... I've only tested out the basics.

Everything that I've done and experienced with it so far says that all that I talked about is easily possible.

sweet stuff, good information for beginners. As far as the "overload" thing goes I hate that, how am I supposed to not get excited i'm about to lucid dream! gah! Good examples too, erection in the classroom, haha classic.

Interesting, I had thought of this already. I haven't actually had a lucid dream yet, but I have plans. I've been reading up on the loci method of memorization. I was planning on creating universes accessible through books in my room (in rl, maybe) with different laws of physics and human history. If I wanted to put myself in a certain scenario, I would either read the book I wanted to emulate again or make it up myself. I figured that I wouldn't really need to make up what it looked like - I could give it a name, such as Middle Ages-type setting, and that's what I'd get. I figure that as long as I give everything a name to be associated with, things would go according to plan.

I never really understood why people asked if things were "possible" in lucid dreams.

BUT I it does depend on your will power, right? If you can't will yourself to believe something could be easy that isn't possible in real life, then you won't be able to do it.

Billy.. I DEMAND an explanation for where you get all the time to write all this stuff...

Quality stuff as usual though. I always like your info tutorials. They're usually pretty easy to digest.

Originally Posted by arby

Billy.. I DEMAND an explanation for where you get all the time to write all this stuff...

Hey now,
It only took about an hour to write


Thanks for the comments you three

I stil have not reached lucidity after a month of trying to DILD with reality checks all the time...however, whenever I do finally achieve it I will definately keep this information in mind

Good idea!

Have you had a chance to test this theory? Does it work to think this way?

I really hope so. If I can ever LD with any consistency, I will definitely attempt to put this into practice.

-Lux

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

As you might have noticed, I really like to explore the biological concepts of dreaming, and yours (and LaBerge's) theories are highly appreciated and open up for serious discussions. Thanks again for making my head ponder.

Originally Posted by calh

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

As you might have noticed, I really like to explore the biological concepts of dreaming, and yours (and LaBerge's) theories are highly appreciated and open up for serious discussions. Thanks again for making my head ponder.

I wonder if running, for all but avid athletes, would be hard to get right in dreams because it's infrequently used or infrequently experienced in depth in real life, much the same reason that touch, taste, and smell tend to be blunted in people's dreams due to the lack of attention given to those senses?

There also tends to be a general dippy/neglectful quality to the brain while dreaming IME, oftentimes even while lucid dreaming. It's easy to forget things, or trip yourself up, or ignore important information.

Originally Posted by innerspacecadet

or ignore important information.

Yeah this brings up the question about why we don't "bust" our dreams more often. If something happens in a dream that is totally unrealistic, why do we go on with non-realistic explanations, such as logic from fantasy movies?

Of course, lucid dreaming is all about "busting" these misconceptions about the dreamworld. May it be that deep inside in normal dreams, you "know" that its a dream, but you don't take action (thus giving false logic) because it's a procedure practiced from since when you were an infant? If that is so, the healthiness of lucid dreaming comes into question (not that I follow this hypothesis). Maybe it was harder to lucid dream back in the middle-ages, because of the beliefs in pseudoscience and magic, thus made man more naive. Today we shouldn't have difficulty pointing out whats real, and whats not real. But why can it be so hard to detect this while dreaming?
As Billybob said, it might be because of the universes we set ourselves in to, and the logic within.

Nice one Billybob!

You did that pretty quick from when you started! Did you also get a change to test this theory more?

I will also be testing this theory as soon as I can start getting more Lucid Dreams.

Originally Posted by calh

Very interesting stuff!

I just have some speculation regarding the expectancy failures.

You say that we have expectations that we might fail certain actions, and that the mere expectation itself is causing it, right? As far as I know, there are actual limitations even if you really believed that you could do it (such as reading).

Some complications occur with a pretty high frequency to some people, examples such as having problems with the motorics of the action 'running'. Or is it just the expectation that you might fail to reach the bus in time, and the motorics fuck you over as it is your worst expectation? Are these motoric restrictions just fallacies, or are some of your brain -functions actually disabled while you dream (I haven't managed to look this up properly).

This proves my point fairly well.
Why would running be hard in lucid dreams? At most, it might not feel the same as real running, but it wouldn't be hard to do.

Just because you've never experienced flight (same as forgetting what it feels like) doesn't mean that you can't fly.
Think of the few times you've experience "flight-like" experiences:

• Roller coasters
• Airplanes
• Trampolines
• Swimming

How often does the average person do those things?
Probably a whole lot less often than the occasional sprint/run. But yet flight in lucid dreams is a common occurrence.


All that your doing when you over think lucid dreaming is putting barriers on yourself that are loosely based on real life logic.

______

Reading:

I have read things in lucid dreams more times than I can count.
All I had to do was realize that I was the reason I couldn't read. I had to think back to all those times I've read things in dreams (many), then realize that no fundamental laws of the dreamstate would change simply because I became "lucid".

Where does it stop? Yesterday we couldn't read, today we can't run... Tomorrow you'll find a way to logically explain why we shouldn't be able to breathe in the dreamstate.


If there are fundamental laws of the dreamstate (other than that it doesn't last forever), I have yet to find them, and I hope that if I ever do find them, I'll know enough to not take them as actual biological "laws", but merely things we must learn to work around.


The fact that you are actually conscious when lucid allows you to bypass the expectation that running will feel like your in water, or that flight is impossible.

{EDIT}

Originally Posted by calh

Yeah this brings up the question about why we don't "bust" our dreams more often. If something happens in a dream that is totally unrealistic, why do we go on with non-realistic explanations, such as logic from fantasy movies?

You take that logic as fact, because your schemata tells you to.

As your sitting watching a fantasy movie, your not steadily saying: "omg wtf, magic is impossible!".
Your letting your schemata that are in place specifically for fantasy movies take over. This allows you to sit and actually enjoy the things that if you saw in real life would blow your mind.

When dreaming, your mind interprets the random objects with the best possible schemata. Thus, if you were to see a bright light, your brain would go: "hmm, how often do we see a flash of bright blue light in real life? Very rarely. How often do we see it in one of these other groups of schemata? Fantasy, often."

Then your brain would proceed to use the group: "fantasy" to build the dream.


Remember that you've conditioned yourself to watch fantasy movies and not think twice about the logic behind them.
In the same way, your brain will build a crazy ass fantasy scene and not think twice about your current state of reality.

If you never watched/read fantasy, you would never have fantasy dreams.
Your mind would use other groups of schemata to form the dreams, and thus you would go on following other types of delusions all night long.


When you understand this, its much easier to understand why reality checks and things like Tibetan dream yoga work.

First of all, thank you for putting time on the constructive comebacks.

There is just one thing that I need to clarify: Isn't it so that these infinite universes converge, that Frodo might draw a gun at you? And if they do converge, are they really worth separating?

Originally Posted by calh

There is just one thing that I need to clarify: Isn't it so that these infinite universes converge, that Frodo might draw a gun at you? And if they do converge, are they really worth separating?

In the normal universe that we always LD in, things can converge like that.
There are no rules that say: "Frodo can't draw a gun". In Tolkien's universe however (the one that he invented and wrote books about), guns simply do not exist.


Thus, if we were to visit Middle Earth in an LD and Frodo were to reach into his cloak and whip out a small shiny object, you would automatically know that it wasn't a gun; guns don't exist in that universe. He would have a dagger, or a potion, or maybe even a small lantern.

Its just not possible for Frodo to have a gun in that universe. They don't exist.


The universes can't simply "converge", because you know they can't affect one another.

_________________

When your walking around in any given universe and you see something that can't exist (ex. your in the movie: "300" and you see a car), you must rationalize that object using the rules of that universe.

Theres no way that could have been a car, cars don't exist here. Take another look, it was just your eyes playing tricks on you: theres horses in front of it, its a carriage.


The thing is, when your in that universe, you won't see a car. Your in no way expecting to see a car, because your in the year 50 BC.
As your walking around in that universe your only thinking about things in that universe.

Its all about "knowing" that things will not change. different "universes" are merely different rule-sets for reality (every universe has its own rule-set, and its own set of schemata that you will attribute towards it).


Do not expect to see things that shouldn't exist. Expect to see things that you know exist (within that universe).

Originally Posted by BillyBob

Its all about "knowing" that things will not change. different "universes" are merely different rule-sets for reality (every universe has its own rule-set, and its own set of schemata that you will attribute towards it).

Do not expect to see things that shouldn't exist. Expect to see things that you know exist (within that universe).

I'm still wondering if this great theory is more than a theory: has it worked for you? I don't think you've said yet whether this has allowed you to experience self-consistent, stable universes in your own LDs. Did I miss where you said that it works?

Because, it makes good sense, and logically I see no reason why you are not right. But then again, just because it is logical doesn't mean that there isn't actually some function that is impaired in the sleeping brain, which would prevent the practical application of the principals you propose.

So, again, does it work?

-Lux

Originally Posted by LuxAeterna

I'm still wondering if this great theory is more than a theory: has it worked for you? I don't think you've said yet whether this has allowed you to experience self-consistent, stable universes in your own LDs. Did I miss where you said that it works?

-Lux

Yes, it has worked for me in the several times I've gotten the chance to use it.

In my most recent lucid dream I became lucid in a park-like area where it was autumn time.
I did not do any "stabilization" techniques, I didn't yell "clarity now", or even study the ground. I simply became lucid and found myself in this strange, quiet, brisk, autumn-day universe.


The strangest thing happened. Since I "knew" that I couldn't lose lucidity, I didn't; even without doing any type of technique to "ground" myself. I walked around, looking at birds flying around in the trees and just generally relaxing.
Eventually I found this odd depression in the ground, it looked like a small crater or something. It was the perfect shape for me to lay on my back in, so I did.

For about a minute I lay there on my back with my eyes closed, just taking in the birdsong and gentle swishing of the trees; enjoying the cool wind as it blew over my face.

Eventually though my bladder started to hurt, and I decided it would probably be best to wake myself up.

_________________

Another example is from about a week ago. I had decided to test the limits of this technique.

I jumped through a mirror and found myself inside of a corner store. There was a riot outside.


For about ten minutes I unleashed hell upon hundreds of random DCs. Throwing fireballs, using superhuman strength, and many other "superpowers".
Again, I did not even once have to "stabilize" or "ground" my lucidity, and the dream was just as vivid as real life.

____

So yes, I have used this method of thought several times to induce some of the most incredible lucid dreams I've ever had.
Like I said in the topic post though, I've yet to visit Tolkien's universe yet... I've only tested out the basics.

Everything that I've done and experienced with it so far says that all that I talked about is easily possible.

Originally Posted by BillyBob

So yes, I have used this method of thought several times to induce some of the most incredible lucid dreams I've ever had.
Like I said in the topic post though, I've yet to visit Tolkien's universe yet... I've only tested out the basics.

Everything that I've done and experienced with it so far says that all that I talked about is easily possible.

Well, in that case, thank you for posting this. You have reinvigorated my hope in the types of dreams that I, too, set out to dream. I was beginning to wonder if it would ever be possible to have dreams like the ones you describe--since all of my LDs and most of what other people describe are always some weird, effervescent, and chaotic world.

I will definitely try to put this into practice, if I can get another LD already!

-Lux

PS: Let us all know when you get to Middle-earth.

i love your posts billybob, they are just the things i need to read when i wake up for a WILD

I want to be a traveler too. Just walk among hundreds of people and think “I am the only one here who actually exists” its an amazing thought provoking experience. I want to see the Wonders of the ancient and modern world and walk along a beach where the ocean is perfectly clear, at the same time knowing that I have created this beautiful world myself.......its mine, and no one else will see it exactly the same way

this is definitely thought-provoking stuff, Billy-Bob. I really wonder about the limitations though. I mean, could I LD in a universe where I have no body? A different set of senses? All depends on imagination I suppose.

I mean we tend to limit dreams by schemata as simple as "I'm human," "I can see," "I'm horny," "I'm straight," "pain hurts," etc... But I mean, you could have a ld where you're walking around in complete physical and mental ecstacy. You could dream about heaven or nirvana! Or hell and enjoy it. You could be a serial killer and rapist and derive unsermoutnable pleasure from it. I can almost imagine feeling that.
What if you meditated in a lucid dream? Would the relazation carry over into real life?
And what if a new joy of killing and raping and torturing carried over?

It's all totally fucking mind-blowing.

how are you sure that you are in the universe? Mentel blocks are harder to get past then that. Let me explain.

As a lucid dreamer i have grown up in the lucid universe. Things are supposed to be a certain way in a lucid dream. A simple portal cant escape you from the lucid dream universe. I have grown up thinking that some things dont always work in a lucid dream. for example last night i had a WILD (it was great by the way) i could walk through walls, fly, and even summon someone (though the person that summoned me scared me half to death lol) the only thing i couldnt do was make a simple fireball. I tried and tried and tried and tried, but i eventually gave up. what if you simply cannot create the portal?
the biggest thing i can think can happen is if its just a fake part of the lucid dream universe. The fact is, we are still lucid dreaming. It will be really hard to get over that fact. It will take a lot of convincing of the mind to get through a real portal.
There must be a way to break the placebo though. One way to beat a placebo it to use a stronger one. perhaps an object? like a universe stone. Something that allows the universe laws to change and a portal opened maybe.

im just rambleing i guess. Somehow i just think its a bit harder to get out of a lucid dream universe if you are lucid dreaming.

From personnel experience, I'd say that universes CAN converge and that they aren't as solid as you seem to make them. Of course, I'd also like to mention that I always have the "anything goes" schemata whether I'm full lucid or semi (if you believe they exist, lets stay off that issue so not to fill this thread =P).

But yeah, if you become lucid and grant a DC the ability to fly, aren't you breaking the universe's laws? I'd say the universes barriers can be broken down by force and your personnel adoption of other schemata. For example, I could start in a real life dream, borrow from my Neverland schemata and pull some fairy dust out of my pocket, sprinkle some on DCs and watch them fly.

I'll agree however that universes do not self destruct. No, frodo will never pull a gun on you. If he did happen to pull out a gun, he'd most likely tell you he found some weird object lying in the mud outside. No rambo machine gunning for Frodo. You however, could easily pull a gun on Frodo. You have the ability to pull from outside the universe. Being totally oblivious to anything outside the current universe would pretty much be only aligned with non-lucidity, would it not? In a lucid you can see the encapsulation of your universe.

I love dreams that last life times! ..and the like!

Great exploration of our mind!

I agree with most you are saying. But you seem to narrow it down too much.
"This is the ONLY way this and that can be done!" Kind of style..

Like people saying this is the best food I ever have eaten! ..about every new food they eat... With just one word, it could be true, not just partly true. "This is ONE of the best.." Etcetera..

These things aren't laws of the dreamstate. They are laws that we as a community have created for "Universe Lucid Dream".

Well put!

Meme's are some interesting stuff!

"Bound to be free, and free to be bound!"




BTW: "The multiverse of universes!"

I understand what you mean, your expectations control dreams outcome and I learned to get over it, now when I fuck a DC, I have a 50/50 chance of busting a nut in real life so when I wake up I got clammy jammys, when before it was nearly impossible, all I do is tell me self it feels good Im gonna bust and I dont think oh my god it feels good Im going to wake up.<<<bad example by the way but it happens...........................sometimes your lucid and you think this is a dream it's harder to run and then you run slow, but if you just think Im running like im on a rollercoaster you will run fast, or the background will move quickly, see your not really running in dreams and you never actually move in dreams it's just what you see changes so much that it looks like real life as thats the only way your subconsious views the world. the background is just going faster. along with scenes changing !!