Thread: The Nature of Dream Control

This synchronism thing is, I believe, (I'll use your example and one of mine for the sake of the argument), either pure coincidence or as in your co-worker's case the fact that he had been focusing on that particular bolt made him recognise it.

Badly explained I think, I'll use my example which is almost identical. I had been looking for those fluorescent light bulbs that cover a large frequency of light waves. I had been to supermarkets and they just had a brand with terrible write ups so I went to Bunnings and eventually found the one I was looking for, well close enough. Anyway the point is the next day I came home from TAFE and my eyes suddenly caught this packet of two light globes the same as the one I was looking for. This box had been sitting there for probably weeks (my mum leaves stuff everywhere for ages) but I had never noticed that it was full of light globes, (some which were the ones I was looking for), until I had already bought one myself and also been thinking about it for a few days.

So I believe it is the fact that your are focusing on this object or whatever it happens to be and therefore you notice it. I mean, say you wanted an orange REALLY badly and you were walking down your street to the supermarket you would probably notice that someone on your street has an orange tree in their front yard, whereas you never noticed it before that because you weren't thinking about oranges.

Anyway, yes, back to dreaming. I had two lucids over three days also, like anomanderis, (coincidence or synchronicity? jk).
So yeh in the first one I could not remember at all what I wanted to achieve. The second time I remembered, FOCUS ON SOMETHING, so I have done this before on a leaf just to see how realistic I could get my world to be, a couple of days ago on a mushroom in a non-lucid dream I remember flipping it over to look underneath and as I looked at how large it was (it was massive) all these bugs started appearing all over it. But anyway, gosh I keep getting side-tracked lol, in this second lucid I remembered what I wanted to do so I stared at something I can't remember and then I remembered a friend IRL had told me about his friend on a mushroom trip had looked at his hand and like went in to it and started flowing down the river of cracks in his hands. So I just tried lying on my bed and staring at my hand, trying to see all the detail. I looked at this one bit on my hand, a piece of loose skin and I focused on that even more closely than my hand and I think this correlates to things I was reading about DMT, but everything went white, I think but I wasn't really focusing on that, I was focusing on my body, which was like just made out of colours in lines and they were moving around like those lights outside stores, except they actually moved, not just blink on and off like the lights.

So anyway, while this was absolutely AMAZING, I wanted to know if any of you could give any ideas as to why this happened. I know many scientists studying dreams and DMT think dreams are caused by DMT being released by the pineal gland. And since this was so similar to DMT trips I was thinking that by trying to increase the detail in your dreams you are making your pineal gland produce more DMT.
Either that or this effect was just caused by me reading up and looking at videos about DMT IRL, but that was almost a week before I had this dream. So I'm not sure. Any ideas?

Because as I said this was amazing but I seem to have not a lot of control over my dreams. In one of those two LD's I had tried to change the scenery by turning around, thinking about it then turning back around, closing my eyes etc. nothing worked . The best control I've had in an LD was when I managed to open up a brick wall, like I sort of created a window and then jumped through into my auntie's garden.

But my powers seem to be more magical. For instance, rather than thinking, 'ok since I want to go through this wall I must imagine things that will be on the other side' etc. etc. I kind of just move my hands in a square shape and then pull the middle and it is a window. I don't know if this makes any difference but it seems to effect my control in some circumstances. Do you think there are two different types of control? One just more subconscious, like put your hand out and shoot a fireball without even thinking about it, and another more thinking about how to overcome an obstacle and everything that goes into it, like 'how could I shoot a fireball?' 'Imagine a flame in my hands, what does a flame look like, ok the flame won't harm my hand but only my enemies' etc. etc.

Thank for reading,
Tommo

Originally Posted by tommo

. Do you think there are two different types of control? One just more subconscious, like put your hand out and shoot a fireball without even thinking about it, and another more thinking about how to overcome an obstacle and everything that goes into it, like 'how could I shoot a fireball?' 'Imagine a flame in my hands, what does a flame look like, ok the flame won't harm my hand but only my enemies' etc. etc.

I've noticed something alike. When I am semi-lucid (I know I am dreaming, but haven't really realized it), I am much more powerful in a fight. While being fully lucid, i think my conscious mind (for the moment, at least) doesn't really believe (or maybe my focus is off. Now that I think about it, my semi-lucid and fully-lucid, my focus has been different...) I can do these things. My subC has no problems with phasing through enemy attacks...

I would agree with your version of synchronicity as well, but I believe there is also another version: one that actually attracts objects into your reality when you think about them long enough in the right way and so on...

I've had quite an amount of dreams that, whilst I did not think of object X, and object X was not in my sight, still kept Object X in his original location with the original details.

An example is the wooden shack on the Island of The Watcher, I started my dream there, and ended my dream in combat with demons, yet the shack was still there even though I went to a huge castle tower and didn't think of the shack anymore.

Either subconsciously I thought about it, or there's another factor in play.

Well, how did you know it was there unless you were thinking about it?

Well, this just points out the fact that there is another part of the brain at work, not the conscious or the subconscious but memory which is holding the image of the shack in the back of your mind, making the subconscious just assume that the object is still there as you know it to be, even if you aren’t consciously looking at it. Even if you did look back and it had lost detail you wouldn't realize as you would just be looking at as much of the object as you remembered being there. It is a matter of whether your mind considers the object in question to be of enough importance to keep and if not that is when the object would cease to exist.

This is where you must ask yourself how much concentration you should put into a single object, I find that it is better to just consciously assume any objects are there as a matter of fact and the world will keep it's clarity that way you make the world exist to your active mind and the only detail or objects that are lost are the ones you don't remember i.e. the unimportant ones. The only danger of the previous statement is that lucidity has a danger of being lost somewhat and you have to know your balance as a dreamer between accepting your environment and realizing its not real and you have power over it.

Well, this just points out the fact that there is another part of the brain at work, not the conscious or the subconscious but memory which is holding the image of the shack in the back of your mind, making the subconscious just assume that the object is still there as you know it to be, even if you aren’t consciously looking at it. Even if you did look back and it had lost detail you wouldn't realize as you would just be looking at as much of the object as you remembered being there. It is a matter of whether your mind considers the object in question to be of enough importance to keep and if not that is when the object would cease to exist. This is where you must ask yourself how much concentration you should put into a single object, I find that it is better to just consciously assume any objects are there as a matter of fact and the world will keep it's clarity that way you make the world exist to your active mind and the only detail or objects that are lost are the ones you don't remember i.e. the unimportant ones. The only danger of the previous statement is that lucidity has a danger of being lost somewhat and you have to know your balance as a dreamer between accepting your environment and realizing its not real and you have power over it.



Also tommo, to your previous post I think there are more than one type of control and the 1st is a lot harder which is the type by which you systematically create something through active imagination so as you said you think "A flame on the palm of my hand, it's blue, spinning and now it will fly up of my hand and crash down on my enemy over there!" the problem with this is that each step is distracting your mind away from the world and if your memory slips whilst your doing it you will have forgotten the reason why the enemy was an enemy in the 1st place or that he even was there, stealing (I feel), from the overall flow and clarity of the dreams adventure.

The second kind would be 'faith manipulation' which would be where you want to throw flame and you hope that a flame will come out of your hand as you make a throwing gesture and hit the enemy defeating them, the problem of this is that it is very dependent on 3 things one confidence (do you believe it will work), emotion (how desperate are you to defend yourself because of fear) and imagination (can your mind picture what is meant to happen), unless all three are working you will either, not throw anything, the flame will fizzle out or it won't do anything to the enemy.

The third way I find is the most reliable which is 'assumptive manipulation' for this you need to know what throwing the fireball and contact with the enemy looks like this can be linked with a motion or a verbal command, perhaps both and also a place of acceptance that this is something you can do, with as concentration on 'how?' as possible, which would lead to doubt or distraction. You can achieve this in early stages by copying something you have seen on a film or computer game so that it is familiar and you have seen it working but for more advanced manipulation only the 1st to techniques ('faith and luck' or 'creating something systematically') coupled with experience can create a stable manipulation you can use with confidence. there are probably more but i would say these are your bread and butter manipulations.
Two personal examples would be that, when I would cast fire in dreams I originally made a sphere motion with my hands to build the spell then projected it away from my like in 'wizards of the coast' games, this is something I knew would simply work because I had seen it done, on the other hand I had real trouble mastering flying in the early days and it took time and imagination in the form of me lifting one leg at a time off the ground tucking them under me then floating around in a mid-air kneel before I learnt to master it then came learning to move through the air faster which was another issue because you don't automatically realize that you can move as fast as you want, "it's your world!"

Anyways I waffled on way to much there, I don't normally type my thoughts out because they are all muddled up when I try to express them but I hope that was helpful.

Could u explain the relationship between synchronicity and dreaming in more detail because i don't understand yet.

I will post 2moro on what i think of emotion on dreams and the realworld/dreamworld links and differences.

Guess I need much more practice then, Fenghuang. Today I tried to fight like the Fullmetal Alchemist, but apart from the first time, nothing really happened... except for me looking stupid clapping my hands repeatedly in the middle of combat

That is a cool thing to attemt and i may have a go tonight after i have had ago at the task again which i failed because of recall , but when you used the alchemy techniques did you have it sound in your mind, that you were going to clap your hands, place them on the ground, a Transmutation circle would appear and did you know what you were trying to achieve what the outcome of the spell would be? because chucking a few exploding filreballs is pretty brainless but turning a brick floor into a golem or getting it to crack under someone takes a lot more imagination (which is yet another element to dreaming) that i believe is something that grows with time and use like any other skill and is more active on a basic level with youth.

I put my hands together, knowing in my mind that this will create a transmutation circle. I can't remember what the first thing was that I succeeded at, but I recall very clearly where I failed: a couple of demons were going to come in from a door, so I clapped my hands, put them against the wall and tried to make the wall to "grow" into the doorway, thus blocking it. Tried this 2 or 3 times.
That didn't happen, but maybe because I was focusing so much on the demons not getting through, that they actually couldn't. Seemed like they were stuck.
Not what I intended to happen...

Fenghuang - I realise the different types of manipulation, but to be blunt there is not really any point in knowing them if you don't know how they work.

Just to wrap this up a bit, and basically some thoughts to develop on.

If you used what you call assumptive manipulation then you would probably be picturing a movie or game or something else you have witnessed IRL or maybe in a dream and basically just copying it.

If you use what you call faith manipulation you would be just assuming that holding your hand out is going to create a fireball in it because you want a fireball to appear.

So these two can pretty much be lumped together.

And since you didn't give the other type of manipulation a name I will call it conscious manipulation. If you were using this you would be trying to figure out ways in which to make things happen, like closing your eyes, thinking about a scenery and opening your eyes again in the hope you will have this seen in front of you. This differs from faith manipulation because you are more trying to make something happen rather than just expecting it to happen because it is a dream and you can do anything.

I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions. I was expecting a lot hate from this thread, but instead it's producing some interesting discussion.

Originally Posted by tommo

This synchronism thing is, I believe, (I'll use your example and one of mine for the sake of the argument), either pure coincidence or as in your co-worker's case the fact that he had been focusing on that particular bolt made him recognise it.

It wasn't that he recognized the bolt, it's the fact that it was there at all. He found it in a completely empty apartment, where the bolt was the only thing on the floor. Plus it was such an odd size, with a very fine thread, that the odds of it having been there were astronomical.

Originally Posted by tommo

Do you think there are two different types of control? One just more subconscious, like put your hand out and shoot a fireball without even thinking about it, and another more thinking about how to overcome an obstacle and everything that goes into it, like 'how could I shoot a fireball?' 'Imagine a flame in my hands, what does a flame look like, ok the flame won't harm my hand but only my enemies' etc. etc.

Yeah, but that second kind of control where you think about it is totally unreliable.

Originally Posted by anomanderis

I've noticed something alike. When I am semi-lucid (I know I am dreaming, but haven't really realized it), I am much more powerful in a fight. While being fully lucid, i think my conscious mind (for the moment, at least) doesn't really believe (or maybe my focus is off. Now that I think about it, my semi-lucid and fully-lucid, my focus has been different...) I can do these things. My subC has no problems with phasing through enemy attacks...

Now that you mention it, I do much better in battles when I'm semi lucid as well. Strange, I would have thought it would be the other way around.

Originally Posted by Fenghuang

Well, this just points out the fact that there is another part of the brain at work, not the conscious or the subconscious but memory which is holding the image of the shack in the back of your mind, making the subconscious just assume that the object is still there as you know it to be, even if you aren’t consciously looking at it. Even if you did look back and it had lost detail you wouldn't realize as you would just be looking at as much of the object as you remembered being there. It is a matter of whether your mind considers the object in question to be of enough importance to keep and if not that is when the object would cease to exist.

That's an interesting point, which may even explain how we are able to remember our dreams. To use a computer analogy, lets look at data recovery. When you delete something from your hard drive, it doesn't actually erase all the ones and zeroes, but changes the pointer pointing to that particular block of memory from "used" to "unused". The data is still there until it gets overwritten by something new. I suspect something similar occurs when trying to remember a dream.

Some question that come to mind are "how much can this type of memory hold?" and "How far back in time does it go?"

Originally Posted by Fenghuang

Could u explain the relationship between synchronicity and dreaming in more detail because i don't understand yet.

Synchronicity is a product of the second rule, where you focus your attention creates related detail. Simply put, it's one of the predominant aspects that shapes your dreams.

The most noticeable ones are when the association between two events or objects are clear and relatively close together in time (ie focusing on your tooth defects in a dream will yield more of those defects). But you have to understand there are also synchronicities at work that are not as clear. These may be from things lingering in your mind from days, weeks, months or even years ago.

Originally Posted by tommo

Fenghuang assumptive manipulation - faith manipulation - conscious manipulation.

I like that classification of manipulations. I would say the first two are more reliable. Conscious manipulation, for me at least, unfolds more like a scientific experiment, in that it allows room for failure.

I can definitely see how emotions play a part in my dream, but attention? me and attention have problems!

lots of times in lucid dreams I like to transform. I try out different transformation methods. mirror, no mirror, magic spell, yatta yatta.

the one that has the most trouble is, attention to detail! in this case, I try to induce an image over my own body. like, I imagine claws where there should be nails. scales where there should be peachy skin and so on.

half the time it doesn't work. the other half of the time it instantly fades away. but focusing on the imagery takes all my effort. its like focusing as you walk, just not natural. I mean the more you focus on your walking the weirder it gets

what has worked better for me is a more emotional aspect. if I want to transform into a dragon, I imagine what a dragons thoughts must be like. strong, powerful, fearless, wild. this seems to work better, and I am able to hold the form much longer without giving it too much attention at all

I notice that I have a problem with a lot of visual attention regarding lucid control. for another example. If I want to have fire power, I have trouble seeing the fire. I can try and try and try and try to see the fire, and maybe something flickers and POOF gone. Holding onto the visual image of fire, is exhausting and frustrating!

but if I wanted to FEEL the fire. no problem. the sensation of feeling the fire is so easy to produce, I have to avoid because it damn hurts and BURNS. and many times, Ive had to imagine feeling this burning sensation in my hands, before I could create fire in my dream.

im just visually retarded I guess, I am butt blind

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Synchronicity is a product of the second rule, where you focus your attention creates related detail. Simply put, it's one of the predominant aspects that shapes your dreams.

The most noticeable ones are when the association between two events or objects are clear relatively close together in time (ie focusing on your tooth defects in a dream will yield more of those defects). But you have to understand there are also synchronicities at work that are not as clear. These may be from things lingering in your mind from days, weeks, months or even years ago.

I'd say everything is synchronicity, just that we only consciously notice the things that are most blatant and obvious.

Originally Posted by juroara

the one that has the most trouble is, attention to detail! in this case, I try to induce an image over my own body. like, I imagine claws where there should be nails. scales where there should be peachy skin and so on.

half the time it doesn't work. the other half of the time it instantly fades away. but focusing on the imagery takes all my effort. its like focusing as you walk, just not natural. I mean the more you focus on your walking the weirder it gets

So this would be conscious manipulation, basically just not using that is a good idea I think. However, being able to master conscious control could be handy when you are in need of something you can't get in other ways. (worst explanation ever, but for some reason I just can't think right now)

I had an LD last night. I guess you could say I was semi-lucid. I definitely knew it was a dream but I kind of let the dream take its own course. Once I realised I was dreaming I tried to fly to escape my friend. FIRST TIME EVER TO SUCCESSFULLY FLY!!!! I've flown before but not had much control over it. This time I was hovering over my friend, moving around looking down laughing as he tried to grab me back down like I wasn't allowed to do that or he didn't want me to.

The other times I've tried to fly I have been completely lucid so I guess just wanted to show another example of how semi-lucidity can be an advantage in that you are using faith/unconscious manipulation rather than conscious manipulation. Although there is a major drawback, being that complete lucidity is absolutely AWESOME!!!!
Another thing I've realised is that a major difference between semi and full lucidity is that in semi you are aware you are dreaming but you don't really grasp the concept that this whole world is created by your mind, in full lucidity you know exactly what is happening and are consciously controlling and keeping track of everything. At least that's how it is for me I think.

Originally Posted by tommo

Another thing I've realised is that a major difference between semi and full lucidity is that in semi you are aware you are dreaming but you don't really grasp the concept that this whole world is created by your mind, in full lucidity you know exactly what is happening and are consciously controlling and keeping track of everything. At least that's how it is for me I think.

That's a good way of putting it (y)

2nd the above that's exactly what i find. plus you are alot less likely to wake yourself up in semi right?

Honestly I hate that!

The "going through the motions" lucid dream.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing?

Anyway, mad props to the OP!

Originally Posted by The Cusp

...Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities?....

Well since you've already evoked Jung, I believe his position was that all psychic activity was the product of the same psychic energy only manifesting itself differently. So no, emotions wouldn't require attention because it is all simply psychic energy.

Nothing can exist unless someone or something believes enough that it does. Maybe that thing is God and we are all dream characters for he/she/it. So in your dreams if you believe that something is there, it is, and the more you concentrate on this thing it does. Like the great philosopher Philip K. Dick said; "The trick is to combine your waking rational abilities with the infinite possibilities of your dreams. Because, if you can do that, you can do anything."

That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids. Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control. That just doesn't seem to be the case.

My only explanation is that we (myself included) are scatter brained victims of the digital age. Technology has conditioned us to the point where we can barely focus on anything for any length of time.

That and our modern culture has no place for the ancient traditions of meditation and disciplines of the mind. The majority of religions have time tested methods and techniques to school and train the mind.

To counteract this seeming lack of control, I would advise some form of meditation of mental training. I'd recommend reading Carlos Castaneda's books, as they deal predominantly with attention. But any type of meditative practice would be sure to help.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

That's quite the inconsistency we have here, in that semi-lucids seem to offer better control than full lucids. Since it's awareness of being in a dream that lends you control, it would be reasonable to assume that the better the awareness, the better the control. That just doesn't seem to be the case.

I wouldn't say that its a consistency, only psychology (though I do agree about the attention span. I believe the average attention span was about 6-10 seconds). And I wouldn't say that control is merely a matter of awareness. I think the reason why I am more powerful in a semi-lucid state is that I don't have to think about things, I just do them. No doubt, no fear.

Originally Posted by Croneus

Nothing can exist unless someone or something believes enough that it does. Maybe that thing is God and we are all dream characters for he/she/it. So in your dreams if you believe that something is there, it is, and the more you concentrate on this thing it does. Like the great philosopher Philip K. Dick said; "The trick is to combine your waking rational abilities with the infinite possibilities of your dreams. Because, if you can do that, you can do anything."

Never heard that quote, I like it alot, and I think this quote is so true!

Originally Posted by anomanderis

Guess I need much more practice then, Fenghuang. Today I tried to fight like the Fullmetal Alchemist, but apart from the first time, nothing really happened... except for me looking stupid clapping my hands repeatedly in the middle of combat

I managed to perform one as well in the form of looting a vending machine. Funnily enough it also put me into a very vivid Lucid in which I completed this month’s basic task, so for the help.

On topic though in the same dream, I was given a sense of fear which was a result of disturbing images that my mind threw at me. I knew I was dreaming but the fear was irrational and essentially real to me, though I knew it wasn't going to harm me the simple fact that it made me feel uneasy made me want to get away from it, as I know from years of lucid dreaming that if you let fear get ahead of you it can be terrifying (i.e. if you feel there’s something ominous behind you don't look and it won't have the same manifest power over you as looking and seeing the object of your fear, though the fear may not disappear entirely). I could have woken myself up but because I wanted to get over the fear inside of the dream I found an alternative way of dealing with it, this was to go to a place that I knew well with good memories tied to it and then put my safety into someone else’s hands (in this case mini turrets and fighter jets), in this environment that I consciously(turrets) and sub-consciously(The place) created, I faced the fear and Gained enough bravery to face it barehanded, even at my disadvantage. It is hard to explain but basically in dreams I fear, fear itself and My mind has grown to not get carried away with things that scare me and I’m secure in my own power.

So the fear was started by my sub-conscious but then held onto by the conscious, this was then temporarily avoided by not dwelling on it using the Attention Technique and then defeated with another emotion bravery/peace/confidence. This leads me to believe that Emotion is, somewhat, a separate entity, as I find it is not something that you can directly control, but it can be manipulated by concentrating on things that lead to an apposing emotion.

That, may have been a pointless post but hopefully it will spark a bit more convo’ on the subject, it is odviously one example and i would be VERY interested in hearing examples of someone dealing with emotion differently (either way you can’t blame me for the coherency of the post as I did fail my English GCSE’s).

P.s. ChaybaChayba "Luffy Rocks!!!"

Originally Posted by Fenghuang

So the fear was started by my sub-conscious but then held onto by the conscious, this was then temporarily avoided by not dwelling on it using the Attention Technique and then defeated with another emotion bravery/peace/confidence. This leads me to believe that Emotion is, somewhat, a separate entity, as I find it is not something that you can directly control, but it can be manipulated by concentrating on things that lead to an apposing emotion.

I'm impressed, that was some good use of the attention technique and the emotional technique.

I still think emotions can be controlled, it's just not something most people are used to doing. Either you control your emotions, or they control you. The tricky part about controlling emotions, especially in dreams, is that it's kind of a chicken and the egg scenario. On the one hand, you have whatever dream element is causing the emotion, but on the other hand, those dream elements are reacting in response to your emotions. It can be very difficult to separate one from the other.

Here's a lucid where I first discovered and experimented with the effect of emotions in dreams.


Fri Sept 22, 2006
A Study in Emotion
Clarity: 10/10
Importance: 10/10
I'm working, at a customer's house. I'm getting very frustrated, and my mood is growing more foul by the minute. These negative emotions keep building, and building, untill I can't take it anymore and I/they snap.

My bad mood explodes out of me like the shock wave from a nuke. I can see it physically washing over every thing as is moves out exponentially in every direction. As my wave of anger passes objects and walls, it changes them. Colors become harsher and angry, lines and angles become sharper, and everything now has a crueler, meaner look to it.

No longer angry, I am now amazed at how much my emotions affect the world around me. A little humbled and a lot calmer, I reset the entire scene back to the way it was before.

Now, I start running through the whole range of emotions, basking in them and seeing how they affect and change the world around me. At some point I notice it's not just the physical objects, but the people and characters as well. Focusing single mindedly on whatever emotion would completely change the behavior of the people and animals (some pets).