Thread: The Nature of Dream Control

Originally Posted by tommo

Um, dude, you've posted, what, five times? in this thread and you're telling US what to talk about.

Also you are the one who's face was blushing because you are the one who attacked personally. I'm doing it now because it's the only way to say that.

Ok, so I at least am saying it has everything to do with dream control.
Thinking some psychic ability is making you dream or control dreams is not the way to go because you are deluded and therefore your thoughts are guiding you not the other way around.

Me and Shift are saying that mental processes are actually physical when you get down to it. You should listen to Alan Watts audio tapes on the nature of consciousness.
We are not denying that emotions or thoughts are mental because that is essentially just a name we have put to our brain processes. That doesn't change the fact that your brain is a physical thing.

That said, how the hell can we leave science or so called 'scientism' out of it? When the whole process is scientific.
If you say leave science out of it we say leave 'psychicism' out of it then we have no argument and nothing to discuss.

Just see that we don't have half of the equation, neither do you in fact. You just have half of the equation wrong. Let me leave you with this question.
If mental isn't physical then what is mental? Is it an intangible thing? and is it supernatural?

If you don't understand the concept of emotion, attention, and intent as energy in lucid dream control you need to go back and read the thread from the beginning. Your snide comment and Shift’s high five were kneejerk reactions, apparently to my use of the term ‘psychic energy’. Perhaps you are just ignorant to the term ‘psychic energy’ as it applies to psychology? Where you draw all this other crap out of that; that I don’t accept neuroscience or that I don't think that the brain is physical or whatever nonsense, is nothing I brought to the conversation.

Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread alive while I've been out of it with allergies, flu and back pain.



Rule #4: There is no random in dreaming. All changes and newly created dream elements follow our own personal schemata and archetypes without exception.

Let's take the ocean as an example. What comes to mind when you think of the ocean? Sand, beach, boats, seagulls, seashells, salt, waves, fish, whales, pirates, fishing, your uncle Jim who lives by the ocean, ect.

It would be impossible to make a complete list, because these things we associate with ocean are always changing. But there are main ones that are more likely to come through in a dream than others. If you dream of the ocean, any of those things may appear in your dream. Where did the ocean come from? Maybe there was a travel or vaction theme before that, which has an association with the ocean.

The thing that really makes dream elements seem random is that we can focus on several different things at once, so these influences overlap each other.

Continuing with our ocean example, let's add another element. Say, the general theme of family (perhaps there was a family reunion element earlier in the dream, or even in RL). The associations with family would be Mother, Father, brother, sister, cousins, aunts, uncles, ect.

So now we have
Ocean: Sand, beach, boats, seagulls, seashells, salt, waves, fish, whales, pirates, fishing, your uncle Jim who lives by the ocean, ect.

Family: Mother, Father, brother, sister, cousins, aunts, uncles, ect.

Since Uncle Jim belongs to both those categories, you can almost guarantee he's going to show up in your dreams.

Lets take it one step further and add an third, emotional element. Let's say your uncle Jim is a drunk bastard who pisses you off, maybe even scares you a little when he's really hammered. Other family members who evoke those emotions may show up in you dream. And since Anger and Fear are associated with violence, perhaps the sharks from the ocean theme will start eating people. Actually, they would most likely attack your family members due to the emotional attachment (rule 3).

There are a great many associations we make with each element or theme, but when multiple elements are in play, it's the associations that all of them have in common that will manifest themselves. Each additional element you focus on will narrow down the possibilities.


Psychic Energy?
These last few posts about "Psychic energy" only illustrate the differences between personal schemata. I would say The Enterer has a broader and more developed schemata of what psychic energy is, while those riding his ass have a much more simplistic set of associations with the term. Words are only descriptions, they are not fact. You have to have some understanding of where people are coming from, and that goes for both sides.

Visual Representation Systems

This seems to be a good follow up to the fourth rule. Consider the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svjHklQhHpc

According to that vid, people subconsciously look to the top left when remembering something, but look to the top right when required to create a mental image. This seems to be universal for everyone, and could aid with summoning in dreams.

If you wanted to summon something from memory, logically, you should try to make it appear on your left side. You want to create something in a lucid, try to make it appear on your right side.

He also discusses more specific visual patterns (sub-modalities), like how close or how far, how bright/dark, color versus black and white. How people you like or dislike appear, and specific locations of where they appear in your vision. If one were to visualize their lucid dream goals while awake before hand, you could note the visual specifics to try and recreate in a dream. You could create an actual visual mapping system to facilitate you lucid goals.


Hypnotism

That first video is in response to Darren Brown's NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) system. Watch any of the associated vids to get a better understanding of what is happening.

I've suspected that these rules could be applied to hypnotism, and this Darren Brown guy uses every one of my rules in his techniques.

I consider this next video a great analogy of what happens in dreaming. What's better is how he applies it to the waking world, seemingly confirming my hypothesis. They break down how he does it at the end, and it's sheer genius.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befug...eature=related

"There is nothing you cannot change in a lucid dream."

Given the rules presented in this thread, the above statement is obviously false. We usually take "rules" to mean gravity or the fact that you have to breathe air or whatever, and that can certainly be changed, but the way dreams works cannot be changed. At least I think so. If these rules are not truly absolute above all other aspects of dreaming, then they must not exist in the dreams of one ignorant of these rules (by rule #1), but we can see that they exist in most of the dreams we find in dream journals. In other words, they do not need our attention to exist, conscious or subconscious.
It's better to term them "models" rather than rules, since they give a good explanation for the way things are, rather than being the stated basis of the way things are. I believe that we have sufficient proof to say that #1 is definitive. From the dream journals of people on this forum, we can see that #1 holds in their dreams, independent of their knowledge of Cusp's models. The fact that they had no conception of these models prior to their dreams shows that the model does not require attention itself to exist; that is, it is a transcendent model. The fact that we can see it manifested in countless dreams verifies that it is indeed a useful model. We can prove that #2 works well as a model by the same logic: that it explains many dreams and that it does not exist "more" as we give more attention to it (thus being transcendent). #3 is more difficult.

This thread doesn't seem to have developed much since I last visited it about a month ago .
Although the army is not that benevolent to a dreamer, I've had some pretty interesting lucid dreams, one where i might even have met some other individuals, since that was the second time that somebody fought with me by trying to manipulate my attention. They failed and I had a really good time ignoring their feints, only concentrating on "catching" them

Here're my 2 cents on it:

1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.

No way to know that. It would be as likely to say that everything that gets attention appears for you or attracts other similar things or things that are somehow related. It is pure speculation to say things require attention to exist. Of course you wouldn't know about the existence of things that you pay no attention to. Attention is a precondition to perceive something, but it is an unfounded conclusion to say that without attention those things would not exist. Yet you could say without knowledge about something, that something does no exist in your world, nevertheless it still might take influence on it.

2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.

Again it is impossible to know. When I look at (focus on) something I perceive more detail, just like when I look away, I see no detail. That is easily observable but to conclude that attention creates detail is purely speculative beyond evidence.

You know we're talking about dreams right?

Originally Posted by tommo

You know we're talking about dreams right?

Not everyone thinks dreams are the same thing. And no matter what, he's right. Ignoring chemistry doesn't make it not exist (believe me, I've tried). It's incorrect to state as fact these things that none of us know for sure. We can state them as anecdotal evidence in support of a theory or method, but to say that that's the way things are is wrong. Especially when there is no objective evidence to support it.

OMG, we are saying this is true IN DREAMS!
Have you tried to ignore chemistry in dreams? I doubt it.
Physics? Yes you do every time you dream. You fly n shit or punch through a brick wall whatever because you forget about physics.
It's just not something to argue about, unless as you say you think dreams are some sort of supernatural thing, but the evidence is still there to prove it right. How can something your mind creates still be there if you aren't thinking about it, or never have. Again we're assuming dreams don't come from god.

1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.

No way to know that. It would be as likely to say that everything that gets attention appears for you or attracts other similar things or things that are somehow related. It is pure speculation to say things require attention to exist. Of course you wouldn't know about the existence of things that you pay no attention to. Attention is a precondition to perceive something, but it is an unfounded conclusion to say that without attention those things would not exist. Yet you could say without knowledge about something, that something does no exist in your world, nevertheless it still might take influence on it.

2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.

Again it is impossible to know. When I look at (focus on) something I perceive more detail, just like when I look away, I see no detail. That is easily observable but to conclude that attention creates detail is purely speculative beyond evidence.

For there to be things outside of the dreamers attention there would have to be a dreamscape or alternate reality.

To assume that things exist outside of ones attention would be to say that thigns can exist in a dreamworld as they do in the physical reality. That is, objectivley. They don't as far as can be gathered about dreams. Until I see otherwise, TheCusp seems spot on.

I haven't updated this thread in awhile because I've been busy experimenting in my dreams. Everything I've talked about so far I've verified thoroughly, but as this discussion progressed, I was moving into theoretical areas which I wanted to test out before I came to any conclusions. It's slow going, but I'm still working on it.

So far the visual techniques have provided me with the best form of control. Simply looking around is the most powerful form of control you can perform, and you will never gain true control unless you understand that.

I also just applied to be a guest on Coast to Coast AM. I know George Noory is into dreaming, and the shared dreaming elements as well as applying those rules to the waking world is a perfect topic for that show. Wish me luck!

Sounds good Cusp. And I agree with the just looking around thing.

Good luck mate! See if you can get a recording of it. Post it here.
Good luck!

Originally Posted by gigaschatten

Here're my 2 cents on it:

1. Everything in your dreams requires your attention to exist.

No way to know that. It would be as likely to say that everything that gets attention appears for you or attracts other similar things or things that are somehow related.

You just essentially said rule 2. Rules 1 and 2 can be easily combined to say that attention is a necessary and sufficient condition for existence (existence may also manifest as detail, since detail is merely the existence of more minute objects/smells/feelings/sounds/tastes); that is: attention and only attention will lead to existence.

Originally Posted by gigaschatten

It is pure speculation to say things require attention to exist. Of course you wouldn't know about the existence of things that you pay no attention to. Attention is a precondition to perceive something, but it is an unfounded conclusion to say that without attention those things would not exist. Yet you could say without knowledge about something, that something does no exist in your world, nevertheless it still might take influence on it.

As you said, something that exists might take influence on your world. If things exist outside of your attention, there are most likely a great number of them since it doesn't make much sense that the only thing existing outside of your attention might be a football or something like that (even if there are few things existing outside of your attention, that itself shows their insignificance). If there are a great deal of things existing outside of your attention, it is very likely that at least one thing would somehow influence your world. Thus if you find your world being influenced in a way that doesn't make sense given what you are paying attention to, for instance you're eating dinner and a car drives through the wall, you can conclude that things exist outside of your sphere of attention. If you can find no evidence of such occurrences, you cannot conclude rule 1 absolutely, but with a good amount of certainty, as much as certainty as you may have concluding just about anything about dreaming.

Originally Posted by gigaschatten

2. The more attention you give to one element, the more detail it creates in relation to what you are focused on.

Again it is impossible to know. When I look at (focus on) something I perceive more detail, just like when I look away, I see no detail. That is easily observable but to conclude that attention creates detail is purely speculative beyond evidence.

Understanding that detail is ultimately a form of existence can help us understand rule 2. Essentially it says that attention creates existence. Again we see that rules 1 and 2 are reverse sides of the same situation, that existence means attention and that attention means existence.

Originally Posted by Valwen

Again we see that rules 1 and 2 are reverse sides of the same situation, that existence means attention and that attention means existence.

That was my point. There is nothing to know. Tell that to the pink elephant that stands behind you, or isn't it?

Originally Posted by Valwen

As you said, something that exists might take influence on your world. If things exist outside of your attention, there are most likely a great number of them since it doesn't make much sense that the only thing existing outside of your attention might be a football or something like that (even if there are few things existing outside of your attention, that itself shows their insignificance). If there are a great deal of things existing outside of your attention, it is very likely that at least one thing would somehow influence your world. Thus if you find your world being influenced in a way that doesn't make sense given what you are paying attention to, for instance you're eating dinner and a car drives through the wall, you can conclude that things exist outside of your sphere of attention. If you can find no evidence of such occurrences, you cannot conclude rule 1 absolutely, but with a good amount of certainty, as much as certainty as you may have concluding just about anything about dreaming.

I never thought of it like that, that's a good point.

I disagree, Valwen. Not in the conclusion that if one thing exists outside of your attention, then many things do. That is fine logic. What I disagree with, is saying that if you are eating dinner and a car crashes through your window that you can conclude things exist outside of your attention. You most certainly can't conclude that. All it means is that a stray thought conjured up a car. Your dream-world is not an independant holo-deck program. It is not it's own scape, or even some realm that exists in your sub-concious with it's own little realities. At least, I'm fairly certain that it's not. In context of our dreams being synapses and thoughtwaves, something requires our thoughts to exist in a place entirely made of thoughts.

Originally Posted by spockman

I disagree, Valwen. Not in the conclusion that if one thing exists outside of your attention, then many things do. That is fine logic. What I disagree with, is saying that if you are eating dinner and a car crashes through your window that you can conclude things exist outside of your attention. You most certainly can't conclude that. All it means is that a stray thought conjured up a car. Your dream-world is not an independant holo-deck program. It is not it's own scape, or even some realm that exists in your sub-concious with it's own little realities. At least, I'm fairly certain that it's not. In context of our dreams being synapses and thoughtwaves, something requires our thoughts to exist in a place entirely made of thoughts.

In that scenario, you're eating dinner. Presumably you have a window for the car to crash through. What's outside that window; your yard, your driveway (with your car perhaps), and both of these lead to the street which is made for cars...

All it would take is for a noise outside to capture your attention. Then you listen more to figure out what it is, maybe you hear some tires squawk or an engine. Mix in an element of tension or danger, and voila, car through the window.

There is a clear cause and effect chain that is anything but random. Once you recognize what is happening naturally in a dream, you can use it for control.



Hell Realms
I stuck this in the beyond dreaming section, but it really belongs here. It's about how different people could each individually recreate the same dreamscape.
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=70716

As a new person to this whole lucid dreaming thing you give great detail on how to control your world when you have a lucid dream. However it also seems like becoming a expert puppet master, sort of speak, is going to take time and practice. One of our human flaws in the waking world is giving to much attention to stuff, so like your bad teeth example. It will be hard to get over that without practice because that's just something that in the waking world everyone does.

Sorry for the double post, no idea why it did that.

Originally Posted by Sotik

As a new person to this whole lucid dreaming thing you give great detail on how to control your world when you have a lucid dream. However it also seems like becoming a expert puppet master, sort of speak, is going to take time and practice. One of our human flaws in the waking world is giving to much attention to stuff, so like your bad teeth example. It will be hard to get over that without practice because that's just something that in the waking world everyone does.

I was kinda sarcastic about Dream Control being hard and all. And lo, I was able to control my dream

the key is believe

Originally Posted by Wicked

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I attest for the truthfulness of this rule. One of my LD tricks to rid of things is to stop thinking about them and distract my mind with other things. That's how I got rid of a tsunami (which is a recurring theme that I usually have problems with) once, by turning my back on it and thinking of other things. Another time, a huge wild dog-like beast was lunging toward me. It missed, and I didn't turn around and didn't think about it. It just never appeared for a second round. It dissapeared.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, this rule is often a pain in my butt, as it severely limits the speed at which I can fly. I just can't think up new landscape fast enough to keep up, and very rarely does my subconscious does this job for me. Usually I am left with limited speed (and very limited flight ceiling for that matter), although some flying techniques I've read about on this board helped me somewhat in this regard.

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You know, this is part of the theme in the Freddy Krueger series. One of the people mentions that, in some culture, nightmares are regarded as evil spirits and the way to get rid of them is to "turn your back" on them. In the end, the person can't be harmed by Freddy because she "takes" all of the power away that she gave him by ignoring him.

If I had to sum up the control techniques I've been trying to explain, it would be "focused awareness". Even if you're not purposely doing it, it's still happening anyways. The things you are aware of build your dream world. So in essence, it's safe to say that dreaming is all about awareness.

Clearly, some people are more aware of their surrounding than others. I would go so far as to say that those who have a greater awareness are generally more successful in life. Adults are obviously more aware than children, yet children develop into adults. Awareness is something that grows with us. What's important to note there is that it can grow. It can also decline or be suppressed by things like alcohol.

Lucidity is a byproduct of heightened awareness.

Naturals
So called "natural" lucid dreamers simply have an above average awareness. But even naturals have room for improvement. Plus this type of heightend awareness is not neccesarily a constant thing. It can wax and wane.

Techniques
There are a ton of methods to become lucid. It seems someone invents a new "ILD" method at least once a month, which really cracks me up! These techniques do work to some degree, but there are so many available to choose from, it can be a daunting task to choose one.

The sheer number of techniques is too messy. There just shouldn't be that many. Yet they all do work. To simplify things, let's consider what they all have in common.

Be it plain old reality check where you stop to look around, plugging your nose and trying to breath, trying to put your finger through your hand, or waking yourself up to think about lucidity before going back to bed, the one thing they all have in common is that you break away from your regular routine and become more aware for a short period of time. The varied techniques just give you a focus point for that awareness.

It's this momentary increase of awareness that trains you for lucidity, not the actual technique. Like with any other muscle in you body, the more you use it, the stronger it becomes.

Dream Yoga
I found out a bit about buddhist dream yoga recently, and at heart, it seems to be just an extended reality check. Instead of just giving up once know you're not dreaming, you try to sustain that heightened awareness. It would seem to me to be much more effective than doing a random technique a few times a day. Going with the muscle training analogy, it's more like a full workout rather than a few sit ups.

When you're getting close...
As your awareness grows closer to the critical mass required for lucidity, you should start to notice signs that your efforts are paying off. A lot of people get really close without realizing it, which must be really frustrating.

Here are some signs to watch for that might indicate you're getting close to becoming lucid.

-Talking about lucidity or dreaming with DCs, or even just thinking about it.
-Recognizing that you've dreamed of something before.
-Using powers from previous lucids without being lucid.
-Waking and re-entering the same dream.
-Recognizing that things are weird or not right, but still not getting lucid.

There are a ton more, really it could be anything where you get close to lucid. Watching for these signs in your dreams can let you know when you're getting close, and a lack of them can let you know when it's time redouble your efforts or try something new.

Very good, just a few comments.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

So in essence, it's safe to say that dreaming is all about awareness.

That applies to anything, so it's not a special trait of dreaming and it's surely not safe to say that "dreaming is all about awareness". Lucid dreaming is about becoming aware of the situation though, that's correct.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Lucidity is a byproduct of heightened awareness.

I wouldn't say it is a byproduct, I'd rather say it is exactly that: awareness.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

So called "natural" lucid dreamers simply have an above average awareness.

I don't know what makes "naturals", because I am none. Also there may be various reasons why someone "naturally" becomes aware in dreams. I don't think it has to do with different levels of awareness though. What exactly confirms your claim?

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Yet they all do work.

Maybe they do, but most probably not for everyone and the degree of functionality depends on the personality of the user. I just think that should be mentioned.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

It's this momentary increase of awareness that trains you for lucidity, not the actual technique. Like with any other muscle in you body, the more you use it, the stronger it becomes.

Not necessarily. Often it happens that a working method stops working because it doesn't "break away from your regular routine" anymore, but has become a regular routine itself.

I don't think it's about a "momentary increase of awareness" at all. It's rather about conditioning yourself to become aware by using various triggers (dream signs), prospective memory (as in MILD) or preserving awareness (WILD). Awareness is what you want to have in dreams and it's either present or absent, but not somewhere in between. It's like being dead or alive, either you are or you aren't.

To understand the mechanics of lucidity, all it takes is to study the basic concepts of the different techniques. You will notice it's not all about increasing awareness.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I found out a bit about buddhist dream yoga recently, and at heart, it seems to be just an extended reality check.

Uhh, the heart of dream yoga is not "just an extended reality check". That is only a prerequisite for dream yoga and it's a type of conditioning. The instruction is to constantly view the world as being made of the same stuff dreams are made of, not about maintaining general awareness. Here's some information on it. Not an easy read though.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

As your awareness grows closer to the critical mass required for lucidity, you should start to notice signs that your efforts are paying off.

I don't think you can actually get "get close to lucid". Either you are lucid or you aren't. In most cases lucidity (as in DILD) is triggered by one special event (e.g. a dream sign) that instantly makes you lucid (aware of your situation). What you list are dreamsigns and yes, of course it's frustrating if they were there and you missed them nevertheless because your conditioning is not strong enough.

One big thing you missed is the importance of dream recall. Without that, it's all in vain.

@TheCusp

I found a flaw in your theory..

You talk about awareness as being aware of our surroundings. However in dreams we're as much aware of them as in waking life. Lucidity is usually defined as being aware that you're asleep, and I doubt anybody could argue that... So, you get to know that it's a dream and everything is dreamy, that's it. But in what way would you become "more aware" of your surroundings simultaneously? You'd start seeing more things around or what?

Not surroundings trigger lucidity, after all, unless you use dream signs as a method...

@gigaschatten

Awareness is what you want to have in dreams and it's either present or absent, but not somewhere in between. It's like being dead or alive, either you are or you aren't.

Either you're aware that you're asleep or not

Not 'either you're aware of your surroundings or not'... because you already were.