Thread: Potential Discovery for Dream Control

That was an interesting read.

I have one question though. You mentioned that this was perhaps the longest lucid you've had yet, and you did not wake up at periods throughout the night having to re-enter/restart the dream.

Were you saying that the length was possibly caused by the deletion of the dream characters? Or was it already getting lengthy before you had the idea to remove them? What technique induced the lucid, also?

interesting theory. When it comes to dream characters, I say kill 'em all!

I have pretty good dream control and never bother with DCs. Unless of course they're hot!

Seems to be the opposite with me. I have very little DC's and poor control, which I am working on. Quite possibly there is one sneaky dream character hiding, stalking, ready to strike!

Originally Posted by Higurashi

Were you saying that the length was possibly caused by the deletion of the dream characters? Or was it already getting lengthy before you had the idea to remove them? What technique induced the lucid, also?

The dream was already long before having meddled with the dream characters, so I don't feel that their deletion had any effect on time (but you never know!). It was also dream induced. Some odd event occurred that made it apparent I wasn't awake.

@The Cusp: That's usually my stance as well, minus mass killing. I save that for when I'm feeling particularly mean.

@hellohihello: Aye, that's good to know. Perhaps if you can put yourself in a social environment whilst lucid and afterwards attempt to 'get rid' of the DCs in whatever way you deem appropriate, maybe then you can tell if there's a difference or not.

Originally Posted by Invader

The dream was already long before having meddled with the dream characters, so I don't feel that their deletion had any effect on time (but you never know!). It was also dream induced. Some odd event occurred that made it apparent I wasn't awake.

I see, thanks

I do wonder at that "event" o.O

Ah, meteors the size of semi trucks hit the ground a few dozen feet from me and didn't leave a mark on the ground, but rather smashed open into many pieces when I was expecting large craters (and death, hah). A pretty good dream sign if I ever saw one.

So, I made a point to try this last night. No luck.

I think I went about it the wrong way, though. I closed my eyes and tried to focus my efforts and attention on all the DCs in my dream scape in an attempt to snuff them out of existence in one fell swoop. Obviously, it didn't work.

Next time, I'll direct focus inward and ignore all outside objects except my surrounding environment. They can't exist without my attention, right The Cusp?

There were a few DC's in my lucid this morning. I actually had more control. I made a sword appear from thin air and focused my energy on it. Every time I swung it, it flung out energy waves. I forgot to do my task though
--
Tomorrow when I WILD and succeed, I will get rid of the people and see the difference.

Originally Posted by Invader

I felt that getting rid of the DCs might be analogous to getting rid of unwanted system processes on a computer so that a desired process could run with greater effectiveness. At that moment, I closed my eyes and imagined the dream characters long gone (I had to close my eyes a second time to make their disembodied voices leave as well).

Sounds like a good thing to try, but instead of closing your eyes and risking destabilising the lucidity too much, maybe you could actually "Ask" the dream to "Remove all dream characters!" ?.

I read in a book recently where the author was testing the validity of who was actually controlling what was in the dream ie: our consciousness, the subconscious, or indeed some other outside force. I was amazed when he tried this slightly altered version where he asked "Remove all dream thoughts" from a crowded room of people and say out of 10 dream characters in the room, 3 still remained. He then proceed to question them further on what or who they were and what they represented. Quite mind bending stuff actually and not quite what you're after, but your topic just reminded me of it.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

Next time, I'll direct focus inward and ignore all outside objects except my surrounding environment. They can't exist without my attention, right The Cusp?

You got it! When I say I kill my DCs, I don't really. That would require focusing on them, which is counter productive. I basically ignore them to death.

Even making a conscious effort to get rid of them all requires too much focusing on them.

well, DC's do tend to destabilize my dreams by distracting me- most types f contact with DC's makes me wake up. However I think the dream became clearer for you because you expected it to.

Originally Posted by Elkfazer

Sounds like a good thing to try, but instead of closing your eyes and risking destabilising the lucidity too much, maybe you could actually "Ask" the dream to "Remove all dream characters!" ?.

Being able to 'blink' things out of existence in my dreams was something I began doing maybe two years ago, and it just came naturally without causing any immediate changes for the environment. I've never asked out loud for things to happen, but it's worth trying. As far as generic verbal commands go, I've only begun using those more recently. Can you tell me the name of this book you speak of as well?

Originally Posted by yuriythebest

However I think the dream became clearer for you because you expected it to.

That's a possibility I've taken into consideration, absolutely. A sort of placebo effect, if you will. But that's the beauty of asking others to try the same thing. If the phenomenon is genuine, there ought to be a positive effect on dream control every time. If it only works as a placebo, though, it should be destined to fail every now and then.

Originally Posted by Invader

Being able to 'blink' things out of existence in my dreams was something I began doing maybe two years ago, and it just came naturally without causing any immediate changes for the environment. I've never asked out loud for things to happen, but it's worth trying. As far as generic verbal commands go, I've only begun using those more recently. Can you tell me the name of this book you speak of as well?

I think asking out loud for things to change or for more information from the dream itself rather than the characters within might be a good technique, I'll try it too once I'm able to have more frequent lucids in the first place.

The book I've been reading which involves these techniques is called Lucid Dreaming - Gateway to the Inner Self by Robert Waggoner. It's a very good read and a good companion book to EWOLD except in this case this book deals more about the lucid dreaming state than about the Induction methods.

There's loads of great detail on Precognitive Dreams, the "Conscious Unconscious" as he puts it, Dream Characters, Dream Guides, Healing, Mutual Dreams, OBE's and talking to the deceased.

Was going to try again today, but I thought I failed.. I did a nose reality check but it didn't work so I thought I wasn't. I'll let you know tomorrow.

If it only works as a placebo, though, it should be destined to fail every now and then.

Dreams work around expectations - placebo ALWAYS works.

Which is a good thing. Anything that you expect would give you more control (erasing characters, rubbing hands, kicking a lemon), will do it. Go with it if you're a sociopath

Originally Posted by Mertruve

Dreams work around expectations - placebo ALWAYS works.

not if you think the placebo won't work. hmm this leads me to a paradox.

1.You wholeheartedly believe that removing characters increases dream quality. You do so and they go away and dream quality indeed increases. No proof here since it might be a placebo

2.You are unconfident/not totally sure if removing characters increases dream quality. Lets assume for a moment that's the case. However since you don't fully think it'll work, while your brain gets more "resources" it won't use them and the dream will destabilize since you think it won't work.


conclusion: if believing/doing something helps in your dreams then do it!!

Yuri's right. The whole "I believe that removing DCs will increase clarity, so it does" placebo thing could give a false positive. Or, conversely, a false negative, as he also said, if it does indeed free up more resources but your brain doesn't use them because you believe that it won't work or probably won't, or are in doubt of it. Thus, it doesn't.

D'you get it?

How can we for-sure prove that this works or doesn't, taking these false positives and negatives into account? Maybe we could have the tester post their attitude towards this theory (previous to the experiment, of course) along with their results, to see if it does indeed have an impact on whether it works?

Even Invader's could be a false positive, because he

Originally Posted by Invader

felt that getting rid of the DCs might be analogous to getting rid of unwanted system processes on a computer so that a desired process could run with greater effectiveness

...
so, his brain gave him the results that he thought had a good chance of being plausible.

Originally Posted by Mertruve

Dreams work around expectations - placebo ALWAYS works.

Originally Posted by WakataDreamer

so, his brain gave him the results that he thought had a good chance of being plausible.

How many times have people expected to fly, or to fly faster than they could normally, only to find failure? What about expecting to land a deadly punch on a foe, to find your fist sliding through air in slow motion as if through jelly? I have expected to be able to do plenty of things that ended up creating more problems than I had started with (a great example in my case would be with 'energy blasts', which I am consequently terrible at).

If, on the other hand, placebos DID always work in dreams, then my premise "I am God, I can do anything" would find zero resistance whilst dreaming. For the sake of clarification though, the lucid dream in which I erased the DCs became altogether clearer, and much more defined. I was expecting to be able to perform to a greater degree, not to see clarity improve.

Originally Posted by WakataDreamer

How can we for-sure prove that this works or doesn't

It's happening in your mind, you can't really prove it.
We may at least be able to test it's validity as a useful dream control tool on behalf of what people claim their experience was like.

Just give it a try, and post your results. That's all I ask. I do not expect this idea to be infallible. You do not have to expect it to work while trying it.



And thank you, Elkfazer. Next time I'm at the bookstore...

Originally Posted by Invader

It's happening in your mind, you can't really prove it.

That's not true, you can prove ANYTHING if you throw enough science at it!

Because that's how science works.

I should have made a point to try this again earlier today on my insane string of WILDs/DEILDs/DILDs (8 dreams total, 6 were lucid, all fit into a two hour time span). I got caught up trying to do a single task for pretty much all of them. I failed miserably each time. x.X

At least I was able to stick to the one task. I think this idea may have some credibility to it, so I'll do my best to try it out.

Originally Posted by Mzzkc

That's not true, you can prove ANYTHING if you throw enough science at it!

Oh yeah? Prove it!

I'm reminded of the movie Contact I saw on TV last week, where the science chick is asking the religious guy for proof of God's existence. He asks her if she loved her dead father, and when she says yes, he tells her to prove it. Some things are beyond proof.

I like having DCs in my Lucids. It seems to prolong them for me. It's true that I don't think as clearly when they are around (or I am thinking clearly and they all act like statues), but I'd rather have longer slightly less controllable lucids than extremely clear extremely short lucids.

My longest and favorite lucid had tons of DCs. I wasn't thinking as clearly in it as in a lot of my other lucids, but that wasn't apparent to me at the time, so I didn't care anyway and I had a blast. Also, since I wasn't thinking clearly, I was able to able to use special powers more easily than I normally could (my logic of what should and shouldn't work tends to get in the way normally).

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Oh yeah? Prove it!

I'm reminded of the movie Contact I saw on TV last week, where the science chick is asking the religious guy for proof of God's existence. He asks her if she loved her dead father, and when she says yes, he tells her to prove it. Some things are beyond proof.

Hence the verbal irony, but I think you caught that. ;-P

So to test the Placebo effect effectiveness, try a different placebo to accomplish the same thing. Say instead that generating a TON of DCs will enhance your dream control, since you created all of them, and all of them should be able to help you accomplish your next task. Like a giant focused network. Just think of each of them as atoms of your mind working towards the same goal as you.
If you can get them all to focus your power more, then the number of DCs present won't disturb your ability to alter your dream.