Thread: Heaven and Hell?

You need to read Dante again. You left our Purgatorio.

You were right about the Banquet Hall with the Golden Chandaliers and the candle light. That is Heaven -- pure metal and pure light.

We know that what is below the floor is not Hell, because it is touched by the Light of Heaven. Hell is totally separated off, whereas, in your Vision here, the poor souls in Purgatory can see by the light of Heaven.

The Blood. Angels once came to me in a dream and lectured me on the two different categories of Sin. There is Black Sin and Red Sin. Black Sin is deliberate, contemplated, and intentional Sin. When a person plans a crime, that is Black Sin. When the Political Conservatives preach Greed and War, that is Black Sin. Black Sin is what we would consider 'mortal' or damnable sin. Red Sin, on the other hand, is Sin of Passion, or sin that relates almost entirely to the desires and frustrations of living in a physical body. Red Sin is not such a big deal in the Spiritual perspective, because, once a person is dead and become entirely a creator of the Spirit, most of the inclinations of the body drop away, with only the bodily habits remaining... a kind of inertial momentum. So, souls with a great deal of Red Sin on their record need to do time in Purgatory, where they can grow accustomed to being Pure Spirit, and lose the habits of their fleshy passions. We see the Red Sins symbolized by your 'blood on the walls', and the mirrors represent the self-examination which must be conducted in Purgatory.

The worrisome factor regarding this dream of yours is the seeming contempt that you have for this representation of Heaven. You shorten your description of it as though it bores you, and dismiss it as 'fancy-schmancy'. You even go to lengths to designate it as one of the circles of Hell -- the hell of gluttony, though you had no clue that anybody had eaten any single extra bite of anything. One wonders whose side you are on.

When I was in the Army a long time ago, I knew which young soldiers coming into my units would fail and which ones would succeed. The ones who would be successful saw the leadership and the chain of command as 'with them', there for their support, and to help them, and they saw themselves as part of the team. Those who would fail, saw the leadership and the chain of command as adversarial... as opposed to them. The failures would see the command structure as 'us versus them'. If these soldiers could not be brought around to becoming integrated into the 'us' feeling and orientation, then it would simply be impossible to ever promote them. To advance, one needs to be an 'us'. The 'thems' finish out their terms and are encouraged to get out, where they can then set themselves up as the enemies of society in general.

In your dream, you seem to have taken on the attitude of being a 'them' instead of an 'us' when talking about Heaven. You are on the outside looking in. You have the vantage point and tone of a Lucifer. Or perhaps you are only trying to be fashionably cynical. The way modern intellectual society works is that one is not considered quite good enough unless one adopts a moral tone superior to God Himself. While it is clear that Moral Civilization is circling the drain and everything is going to hell, everybody is pressured to insist that it is not humanity's fault, but that all blame must be laid at the feet of Good; that materialism is pure and innocent, and that all guilt resides entirely with Religion. It is a very morally naive and immature view of things, but yet it is the politically correct viewpoint and I can see why it would be convenient for you to adopt such a tone, even if it hints at some degree of intellectual cowardice.

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

You need to read Dante again. *You left our Purgatorio.[/b]

Frankly, I've only read a few cantos of Inferno. I would read more, but the style it is written in isn't something that I can latch onto very easily. Not that I feel I'm stupid or anything, I just prefer the constructs of modern literature, as opposed to the more poetry form. I just plain don't like poetry.

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

You were right about the Banquet Hall with the Golden Chandaliers and the candle light. *That is Heaven -- pure metal and pure light.

We know that what is below the floor is not Hell, because it is touched by the Light of Heaven. *Hell is totally separated off, whereas, in your Vision here, the poor souls in Purgatory can see by the light of Heaven.[/b]

The idea that it was purgatory had crossed my mind at one point, even though I forgot to include Purgatorio as a source. It does make a lot of sense now that you mention it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont@
The Blood. *Angels once came to me in a dream and lectured me on the two different categories of Sin. *There is Black Sin and Red Sin. *Black Sin is deliberate, contemplated, and intentional Sin. *When a person plans a crime, that is Black Sin. *When the Political Conservatives preach Greed and War, that is Black Sin. *Black Sin is what we would consider 'mortal' or damnable sin. *Red Sin, on the other hand, is Sin of Passion, or sin that relates almost entirely to the desires and frustrations of living in a physical body. *Red Sin is not such a big deal in the Spiritual perspective, because, once a person is dead and become entirely a creator of the Spirit, most of the inclinations of the body drop away, with only the bodily habits remaining... a kind of inertial momentum. *So, souls with a great deal of Red Sin on their record need to do time in Purgatory, where they can grow accustomed to being Pure Spirit, and lose the habits of their fleshy passions. *We see the Red Sins symbolized by your 'blood on the walls', and the mirrors represent the self-examination which must be conducted in Purgatory.

Wow. I can see that, yes.

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont
The worrisome factor regarding this dream of yours is the seeming contempt that you have for this representation of Heaven. *You shorten your description of it as though it bores you, and dismiss it as 'fancy-schmancy'. *You even go to lengths to designate it as one of the circles of Hell -- the hell of gluttony, though you had no clue that anybody had eaten any single extra bite of anything. * One wonders whose side you are on.

I shortened the description of the 'representation of heaven' mostly because I didn't want to bore others, rather than bore myself. Also, I've had this dream three times--the last when I was nine. I'm not going to remember every single detail. I remember the \"Hell\" part a lot more vividly, as it was much more of a shock to my young self.

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

When I was in the Army a long time ago, I knew which young soldiers coming into my units would fail and which ones would succeed. *The ones who would be successful saw the leadership and the chain of command as 'with them', there for their support, and to help them, and they saw themselves as part of the team. *Those who would fail, saw the leadership and the chain of command as adversarial... as opposed to them. *The failures would see the command structure as 'us versus them'. *If these soldiers could not be brought around to becoming integrated into the 'us' feeling and orientation, then it would simply be impossible to ever promote them. *To advance, one needs to be an 'us'. *The 'thems' finish out their terms and are encouraged to get out, where they can then set themselves up as the enemies of society in general. [/b]

I'm much more like the former, which you will find out as I frequent these forums in the future. I've always been a law abiding citizen, and I respect authority as much as deserved. For example, I respect the fact that police men and women willingly put their lives on the line every day, just to make me safe. While, that may not seem all that amazing, most teenagers I know will outright tell you that they hate cops. When asked why, the common answer seems to be that they don't want to get busted. This does depress me. I do, however, realize that there are a few crooked cops, and these people I have no respect for. I trust these people to be out there trying to make the city I live in a better place, and when they lower themselves to the level of the scum they're supposed to be helping to rehabilitate, they lose that trust. I'm glad, however, that at least in my city, this seems to be minimal, if not nonexistant.

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont
In your dream, you seem to have taken on the attitude of being a 'them' instead of an 'us' when talking about Heaven. *You are on the outside looking in. *You have the vantage point and tone of a Lucifer. *Or perhaps you are only trying to be fashionably cynical. *The way modern intellectual society works is that one is not considered quite good enough unless one adopts a moral tone superior to God Himself. *While it is clear that Moral Civilization is circling the drain and everything is going to hell, everybody is pressured to insist that it is not humanity's fault, but that all blame must be laid at the feet of Good; that materialism is pure and innocent, and that all guilt resides entirely with Religion. It is a very morally naive and immature view of things, but yet it is the politically correct viewpoint and I can see why it would be convenient for you to adopt such a tone, even if it hints at some degree of intellectual cowardice.

I am very cynical, yes. But the attitude I'm taking on this analysis, is an analytical attitude. Rather than philosophical, as yours seems to be. Thank you very much for your input.

Regards.