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What someone deserves is not necessarily related to what is ethical. What someone deserves is arbitrary. But the idea that people deserves to be ripped off for being stupid is pretty strange. Stupid people deserve better school systems. Rich douchebags who ripped people off in order to get rich might deserve to be ripped off, to get a taste of their own medicine. The idea of deserving anything can be somewhat misleading, it's highly subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by DuB
Yea if you are talking about the natural world. How a human acts to an actual procedure as opposed to a placebo is a subjective experience. Why do you think they get thousands of people in medical studies?Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
This is quite a judgmental, unforgiving thread. We've all made mistakes. I'm sure we've all bought into stuff that turned out to bite us in the ass. Does that make us stupid or worthless? I just earlier admitted on this thread that I used to believe EFT, would you guys like to say DIRECTLY TO ME that I'm an unintelligent sucker who deserves to be unethically treated?
I can't really say SAY IT TO MY FACE, BITCH because this is the internet.
Dear DeeryTheDeer,
I would like to say, in as close to a to your face manner as is possible over the internet, that if you ever gave money to anybody for EFT then you made an unintelligent decision and were ripped off. A series of such decisions would probably cause me to label you unintelligent along whatever axis of intelligence is responsible for making such decisions. I believe that what that person did to you was unethical if they knew that they were selling snake oil but that, if you are not genuinely and permanently unintelligent, you share some responsibility for allowing it to happen over any protracted period of time. We all make stupid decisions. The extended discussion forum here on DV is littered with stupid things that I've said for instance (this may be one more piece of trash along the side of the road for all I know). You live and learn.
However, we cannot allow touchy feely things like "who's feelings are going to get hurt" and "who has fallen for the scams we're discussing" to interfere with giving our honest opinions concerning them. That would kill discussion. While I do not share the opinion that stupid people or those behaving stupidly deserve to get ripped off, I can certainly sympathize with it.
Sincerely,
Aaron
Dear DeerytheDear,Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
I would like to reestablish something you already know which is that you made a decision you thought would work but turned out the way you thought. Congratulations sir for you have proven yourself human and capable of fallibility and insulting such a discovery is as useless as insulting your taste in ice cream. How dare you like Rocky Road. Do you not know that Cookie Dough ice cream is the intelligent choice?
Sincerely,
Someone who sees the subjectivity in economic preference
Is it ethical to rip off newagers? Shouldn't the question really be, is it ethical to rip anyone off? Um, nope!
Ripping someone off has nothing to do with someones beliefs. Lets say you believe a certain rock will bring you good luck, and someone sells you that rock for a buck. Were you ripped off? No. You knew exactly what you wanted to buy and you bought it. It doesn't matter if the good luck is just a placebo.
Being ripped off means were you blatantly lied to over the authenticity of something.
Take chakras for example. The belief of chakras is ancient and very well established. The heart chakra will always be green for example. It's never red or pink. Its green! Is a person ripped off if they buy a book on chakras just becuase science hasn't confirmed the existence of chakras? No. A person who wants to know more about chakras is ripped off when the book just starts to make stuff up and screws up the chakra system!
But that happens a lot on the new age market. People just make things up and find clever ways to make it sound authentic, when its not backed by science, tradition, culture, spirituality, nothing. It just pure fantasy for only one objective, make lots of money.
You may think that only weak minded idiots fall pray to these scandals, but the story isn't that simple. There are two scenarios taking place. The first is that intelligent and rich people are actually more likely to be duped on some of the more crafty scandals. Why? Because intelligent people obsessed with money are vultures waiting to seize an opportunity. If a product or system claims they can meditate like gurus in just a week, well that is a much more economical choice than wasting time meditating for hours for decades. Why not? They have the money. Who knows? Maybe it will help them meditate like a guru by the end of the week?
They don't have to necessarily believe in the claim without a doubt. They're rich, they have money to spare, what have they got to lose? A week versus decades? The choice becomes obvious!
Take an equally intelligent person who's butt poor. Why spend $1000 on a meditation system when you can meditate for free? That's just plain dumb right? Its much more economical to meditate for free even if it takes them decades to master it. Maybe this individual thought those rich fools were laughing idiots. But the next day they win the lottery and they have more money than they know what to do with. Who knows. Maybe that $1000 meditation system is starting to sound, pretty interesting. They have the money now to post pone doubt!
Human intelligence biologically speaking didn't evolve so we could be - logical. Our intelligence in the wild gave us the capacity to see an opportunity and seize it! Its actually why we learned to eat spicy peppers in the wild! (and why were screwing up the earth)
There is another reason why so many westerners are duped with new age scandals. The culture of Christianity would make you believe, ever since you were a child, that your salvation lies outside of you. Even if you're atheist, you might have grown up with this culture. When you desperately want a better life, or to be a better person, but believe deep down that you don't have the capacity to save yourself, you're going to fall prey to new age scandals. (among other things)
This is when new age scandals become cultish, having people sign away their lives and souls for some salvation guarantee. Maybe its a greater sense of happiness. Enlightenment. Uncovering your past life, etc. Or being saved by aliens. They all charge lots of money and take advantage of the individuals lack of self-worth. Whether or not you can stay clear from these scandals has less to do with intelligence, and more to do with your emotional well being.
Sound spirituality is a great antithesis to new age scandals. It's self-empowering, self-liberating, and you can learn it for free.
So the person's behavior has nothing to do with it. The question here is okay to rip off a class of people that hat make themselves especially susceptible to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
So because the Heart Chakra is always green, I'm supposed to believe that there's some validity to it, right? What about the Tibetan System? Com'n Juroara, I would expect a new-ager to know this shit better than a science type: The Tibetan Buddhist Theory of Chakras. The Tibetans think the Heart Chakra is white. Now of course you can also find new-agers portraying the Tibetan system as believing the heart chakra is green or green and red here:Quote:
Take chakras for example. The belief of chakras is ancient and very well established. The heart chakra will always be green for example. It's never red or pink. Its green! Is a person ripped off if they buy a book on chakras just becuase science hasn't confirmed the existence of chakras? No. A person who wants to know more about chakras is ripped off when the book just starts to make stuff up and screws up the chakra system!
Chakras at Atlantis Angels and other places. But they feel the need to illustrate with pretty pictures. As you've so amply demonstrated, that's never a good sign.The first also agrees with my book The Tibetan Yoga of Dream and Sleep which is actually a source of authentic Tibetan knowledge(edit: joke's on me. The book doesn't actually list the colors where I remember it did. It's still common knowledge that the tibetans have a different system for the colors). Surprise, surprise, the new-agers talking about crystals and atlantis are full of shit.
Or sound important which get's more to the root cause of many to make money any ways.Quote:
But that happens a lot on the new age market. People just make things up and find clever ways to make it sound authentic, when its not backed by science, tradition, culture, spirituality, nothing. It just pure fantasy for only one objective, make lots of money.
Damn spicy peppers are good so I'm glad for that. We also learned to value things like the confidence with which someone says something, how close of an ally they are, and other forms of "social" thinking more than rational interpretations of factual evidence when making decisions which is, in large part, why we're susceptible to this sort of garbage to begin with.Quote:
Human intelligence biologically speaking didn't evolve so we could be - logical. Our intelligence in the wild gave us the capacity to see an opportunity and seize it! Its actually why we learned to eat spicy peppers in the wild! (and why were screwing up the earth)
Every now and then Juroara, I have to quote you for truth and this is one of those times.Quote:
There is another reason why so many westerners are duped with new age scandals. The culture of Christianity would make you believe, ever since you were a child, that your salvation lies outside of you. Even if you're atheist, you might have grown up with this culture. When you desperately want a better life, or to be a better person, but believe deep down that you don't have the capacity to save yourself, you're going to fall prey to new age scandals. (among other things)
This is when new age scandals become cultish, having people sign away their lives and souls for some salvation guarantee. Maybe its a greater sense of happiness. Enlightenment. Uncovering your past life, etc. Or being saved by aliens. They all charge lots of money and take advantage of the individuals lack of self-worth. Whether or not you can stay clear from these scandals has less to do with intelligence, and more to do with your emotional well being.
Rationality is also a great antithesis to new age scandals. One will seldom get either from a new ager.Quote:
Sound spirituality is a great antithesis to new age scandals. It's self-empowering, self-liberating, and you can learn it for free.
Because if you understood my post, you would understand that even suffering from depression can make you susceptible to new age scandals. Does that make it okay? No. Some people here think what makes you susceptible to a new age scandal is only belief. That's not true. It doesn't matter if a person believes in angels, that doesn't mean they believe Miss Mary Jane can talk to angels and want to pay her $500 for a personal session.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned
It takes something else to transform someones personal beliefs into a scandal you can profit from. Emotional dependence.
Validity is based on what it is based on! The word chakra is Sanskrit for wheel. The belief of chakras is based on a real culture, a real heritage, a real tradition. In other words, if you want to learn the chakra system the valid way, you should learn as close as possible to the source of the teachings.Quote:
So because the Heart Chakra is always green, I'm supposed to believe that there's some validity to it, right?
You don't have to believe in chakras to pick up a book and learn more about them. Maybe you just want to get to the source of the belief of chakras to make a fantasy story feel more aunthentic, like Avatar the Last Airbender.
Validity doesn't mean scientific.
Thanks for pointing out that website. There are supposed to be thousands of energy centers all along the body, but the most popular known chakra system is the seven major chakra system. There is another chakra system I've heard of that uses ten, but theres not a whole lot of info on it. But thats what im talking about. When you're interested in something, what makes it valid is its source. I can't rely on one website.Quote:
What about the Tibetan System? Com'n Juroara, I would expect a new-ager to know this shit better than a science type: The Tibetan Buddhist Theory of Chakras. The Tibetans think the Heart Chakra is white.
All I said was if you're interested in something you want to get to the source. A book claiming to be an authentic source when its not is misleading and the subject of this thread. People want to draw pretty pictures that's fine with me, its called art and self expression. All chakra illustrations are just illustrations, none of them are literal translations of what a chakra is. And none I know of have claimed to be a literal translation.Quote:
But they feel the need to illustrate with pretty pictures. As you've so amply demonstrated, that's never a good sign.
You make it sound as if only new agers are conned and duped. The whole world has been conned and duped.Quote:
Damn spicy peppers are good so I'm glad for that. We also learned to value things like the confidence with which someone says something, how close of an ally they are, and other forms of "social" thinking more than rational interpretations of factual evidence when making decisions which is, in large part, why we're susceptible to this sort of garbage to begin with.
You think happy pills really work? No. Placebos have shown to have the same results! But it makes a great sales pitch and its good business. You think BigPharma duping their customers is so different from new age scandals? No. Its all the same. The sales pitch is the same. Instant rewards. Instant gratification. The fix you need, right here, right now.
Whos susceptible? People who feel they need something!
The reason I believe people who fork over their money to idiotic philosophies or ideologies without any shred of evidence deserve to be ripped off is because experience can often times, be the best teacher. I say that because I consider myself like you in a lot of respects based on what you stated in the above quote. I believed in things and got ripped off. Be it financially or in some other way. Did I learn? Hell yes. Similar to how children learn not to touch hot stoves.. experience. From my standpoint.. the quicker you're "burned" by something, the sooner you wise up.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
We're taught in business school that failure can be a good thing if we learn from it. I approach this same topic with the same mentality. If people continue to fall prey to asinine belief systems without any red flags going up (like being ripped off or other instances that don't seem quite right), the person will just continues down their path of idiocy.
I see your point, but does that really mean that they deserve it, or just that it would be a good experience to have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff777
This also has nothing to do with the ethics of it. The fact that someone has a weakness does not make it ethical to exploit that weakness.
Well maybe if you rip someone off for just $100 or whatever it doesn't hurt them much but might teach them a lesson. So you're saving them before someoneQuote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
rips them off for thousands or everything they've got. And the people that don't learn, and continuously fall for stupid shit, well, they really aren't fit to live in this world IMO.
No. No one is worthless. Some people are stupid though. Evidently you aren't stupid because you realised EFT is stupid. And, I hope, you won't fall for similar things again.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDear
I was stupid, when I was 5. I spent 200 dollars on that stupid Techno dog thing which was absolute shit. I never wasted money like that again. A few dollars here and there on some herbs, but I researched them first and it wasn't much, I just wanted to try them. Most were next to useless. I won't do that again either. Then of course as juroara mentioned, there's the anti-depressants, but the evidence wasn't around back then to tell me they were bullshit, so it's not really my fault.
Anyway, point is, if you learn from your mistakes, that's good lol And we can't really guard everyone from being ripped off, besides teaching them, so may as well teach them first.
Wouldn't it be much better to talk to them about how all this stuff is a bunch of nonsense?Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I understand that they could learn a lesson, but that has nothing to do with what a person deserves or what is ethical.
Do weak kids at school deserve to have the shit kicked out of them and their lunch money taken? I don't see how it can be a good thing for the weak to be taken advantage of in any situation, it "hurts" both the victim and the aggressor. These people doing the ripping off should get real jobs and do something worthwhile. They are parasites. They are just as worthless as stupid people, if not more.
I'm sure you know that it is sometimes near impossible, if not impossible to talk someone out of their beliefs. Sometimes the only way is to teach them through repercussion. I think it's fairly well understood that people learn better if they make mistakes.
I also wouldn't say stupid people are worthless. I've known a lot of people who could be considered stupid, but they've had a profound effect on me (and other people, I think). Therefore, not worthless.
The people doing the conning are not worthless either if they end up teaching the people who get ripped off a lesson.
The point is that certain beliefs are structured so as to be very difficult to be talked out of.
Consider the belief that you are worthless in conjunction with belief in ill-defined "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo. You sign up for this EFT thing and pay money. It doesn't work. Is this because the ill-defined "spiritual" mumbo-jumbo is full of shit or because you're worthless and it didn't work for you but would have for someone that isn't worthless? Given that you already believe that you're worthless, it's more likely that you'll choose the latter.
This is quite a predicament and this Brad Yates fucktard has crafted a very elegant system to take advantage of it.
It is possible to teach them a lesson without ripping them off though. Con artists are con artists, taking advantage of the weak minded is always sick and fucked up in my opinion. It's just like the Church.
Most of these people have just had an experience or a number of experiences that have convinced them that they are weak and because of this they look for a guru or some trick to make them enlightened or better. They don't need to be tricked, they just need to learn to look to themselves for the answers.
These people don't need to be talked out of their beliefs, they just need to look closer at what it is that they do believe.
How would you go about doing that though?
Especially with things as philosopherstoned mentioned like things that can't be proven wrong. God (you just have to have faith, he's smarter than anyone etc.), this EFT thing and being worthless, psychics (you didn't believe, so you blocked the energy etc.).
I'd like to see you talk someone out of that. It's very hard and sometimes not possible.
As you said, the person has to figure it out themselves, but how to get them to do that?
Give them space and let them make an ass of themself enough times. Also ask them questions, make them think about what it is they believe, if it's founded on nonsense you'll eventually get to that nonsense and you can tell them how it is. This won't work for everyone but most people it wouldn't work for would keep believing in stuff even if they got scammed.
The idea that it's okay to rip them off because they are stupid seems to me like enlightened despotism.
These poor people. They've been deprived of the means to develop a healthy skeptical mind. This was said above by another member, but what "stupid" people deserve is a meaningful education. I don't think anyone should be stupid, I don't believe anyone is inherently stupid, and I see them as victims of a society that doesn't care about them. They need help, they've already been ripped-off enough.
I'll try this when I get a chance. You may be right but I'm not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by stonedape
SI - I agree completely. Education is the most important thing when it comes to any issue.
Unfortunately some "higher-ups" don't want everyone to be educated otherwise they will be able
to see through their lies.
Education is key, so why isn't it free?
Juroara brings up a good point, and depression is also what I mentioned. I was in a desperately vulnerable mental situation (complete with thoughts of suicide). I still don't think it's fair to just say I was being stupid or made a stupid decision. People who sit at their perches thinking they're always so superior to everyone else, pointing and laughing at the "common folk" are always quick to judge and condemn. They have no idea what I actually went through. It may even say more about them than me, and what they've supposedly done with their life up to this point that gives them the right to posture about their intellect.Quote:
Originally Posted by juroara
I can see your reasoning there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff777
While we're talking about ripping off "new-agers", what about the ethics of religion? Religion is by far the biggest form of controlling and ripping off people in the world, and we're making a distinction for those dumb wacky new-agers? :lol: :roll: Do religious people deserve it?
In what way is forking over money for new age bullshit not being stupid or making a stupid decision? We all make stupid decisions and behave stupidly at times. Why is this not an instance of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
At the time, I was thinking that that's a whole other issue. My primary argument is that if you're a member of a religion, you're only likely to get ripped off in the name of that religion and not in the name of some other religion. Religions are, to a certain extent, well defined in that there are clear positions taken by distinct denominations. New age bullshit has the property that anybody can make up anything they want and anybody that believes that shit will likely believe it so long as it doesn't conflict with something that they already believe. In addition to involving and hence tainting the name of some legitimate ideas, this makes people that believe in it susceptible to getting ripped off by more people and in more different ways.Quote:
While we're talking about ripping off "new-agers", what about the ethics of religion? Religion is by far the biggest form of controlling and ripping off people in the world, and we're making a distinction for those dumb wacky new-agers? :lol: :roll: Do religious people deserve it?
She's saying it wasn't stupid because it was out of desperation (because of depression).
This is a difficult one. It could be considered a stupid choice. But your thought process may not have been stupid.
That's a hard distinction to make, but there is a difference.
In that case though, I would say it's wrong. It's bullying; picking on the weak.
Maybe this isn't a good thing to do at all. Especially if it's an online thing because you don't know the circumstances of people you are ripping off.
Yes. But they seldom learn because society is kinder to mainstream religions. Because of that, it's actually encouraged by society to continue down ones path of religious idiocy. People learn faster when they're burned by "unorthodox" belief systems because there will be a Christian or a Jew or someone else belonging to a mainstream religion to tell that person "That's what they get for not subscribing to OUR belief systems."Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer
What I mean when I say that society is kinder to milking money from religious people is best illustrated by an example.
Which would society (as a whole) smile upon? Donating your money in a xian collection plate? Or donating your money to scientology?
In the first instance: Churches don't pay taxes save for utilities and there's usually one one person on the payroll (pastor).
The second instance: Not largely seen as acceptable like Xianity and other mainstream religions are therefore you get brows raised if you have done the latter, or something similar to it.
I consider both instances to be rip-offs but seeing as the first instance is more widely accepted as "the norm", those who do fork over their money to mainstream religions will seldom see themselves as being "burned" by it because of social acceptance and approval.
If none of the above made sense, I'll try again later when I feel like it.
Two words. Pet. Rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
I really do mean what I said earlier though. If you're stupid enough to believe in and fork over your money to stupid shit.. I applaud the guy that charmed the money, so effortlessly out of your wallet (not addressing you tommo, just general statement here :P)
Financial survival of the fittest.
Being that the topic is about ethics, I would say that the practice of "ripping people off" is very unethical, but I'm not against it.
I'm surprised no one has made reference to the idea that these people may resent being told that they have been ripped off and may deny that it is true. People are willing to spend money on all sorts of things that you and I may consider bunk. I think magnetic bracelets were mentioned here, but there are plenty of other examples. Some of us may even spend money on some of those kind of things. The comfort that people get from these things can be very real to them and is often times intimately tied to the money that they spend, since after all we all know that nothing good comes free.
Edit: I just thought of a great example; vaccines. There are millions of people around the world who buy flu vaccines every year despite the fact that there is no evidence that flu vaccines actually reduce the cases of influenza contracted. I have one friend in particular who gets vaccinated every year despite the fact that most years she still gets the flu.
I'd like to take issue with your Darwin reference. Because that is exactly the attitude that people who do these things take. "They're weaker than me, therefore I deserve their money". They are the people who disgrace Darwin's legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff777
Survival of the fittest doesn't apply here. Because, as some people have mentioned, some people don't have the chance of education; everyone is not born in to equal circumstances.
If someone was brought up in a house full of balancing braceletians, and was poor, couldn't go to school etc. It is not them who are unfit. It might be, but chances are it isn't, because no one is born believing these things to my knowledge.
Would you applaud someone (from a wealthy country) who ripped off a group of starving Africans by telling them this leaf will feed you and your family for life?
Keep in mind a lot of these people have never seen a person like this and they may assume he is some sort of god, with all his gadgets and strange clothes.
If those people had been brought up in a different circumstance they may have known he was a con artist.
Darwin did not mean fuck everything weaker than you. He meant that some species are adapted for certain environments/predators, and the ones that aren't will die off.
Some people who get taken in by these things are not weaker, they just didn't have the opportunity to know any better.
So in other words, the way you quoted Darwin is the exact opposite to what should be gleamed from his words. We should help people who are in worse circumstances than we are. We all have the same genes and very few of us are innately stupid. Mentally retarded people are obviously the exception.