...You are now forced to accept that Obama has taken that title.
Barack Obama has expanded every controversial war, economical and social program that Bush instigated, as well as started many of his own. At what point will we realize that political parties mean nothing, stated ideologies mean nothing, and that our government no longer operates under the rule of law but only under the mandate of their own selfish agendas and those of their benefactors?
lol, go back to Alabama.
Actually, there are only 50K troops left in Iraq, that happened very shortly after he got elected. Afghanistan was never a controversial war, as they attacked us, and there is also a fraction of the troops left there. The only troops left in either place are military, all of the private forces are gone, the private ones are significantly more expensive than the military.
He did manage to pass his universal health care plan, which was one of the major reasons he got elected, the idiot right is what's trying to pull it back down.
He closed tons of tax loopholes for the top 1%, and significantly increased their taxes, while lowering middle class taxes.
He helped repeal don't ask don't tell, which was another major reason for his election.
The economy has been growing for 2 years in a row, and is accelerating.
Gave nearly 9 billion dollars to green energy research, another major election point, not to mention 70 billion in clean tax incentives for both companies and individuals.
Brought most of our overseas allies back to supporting us.
Reimplimented the US's ban on torturing prisoners, another huge focal point of the election.
Reintsituted the the freedom of information act, the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments. Probably the biggest election point besides the economy.
By the way, not very many people consider Bush to worst US president. Most people I know still reserve that spot for Harry Truman, but Bush is right up at the top.
what? afghanistan didn't attack the usa...Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
left or right, bush or obama - it doesn't matter
The problem is that it is more difficult to complain about Obama's policies.
Explain to me then how his war on whistleblowers is in any way justified or his following through and enhancing Bush's laws to spy on the general population or his ideas of prolonged detention or his ambiguous policies towards marihuana or the more active role the US is playing now in the middle east or the ridiculous and fast renewal of the patriot act without the possibility of debate, etc.
oh wait, I just realized, following your logic I must be a redneck, damn
Not everything Obama did was right, but the OP is saying that Obama was worse than Bush. Can you name ONE thing that Bush got right?
The Taliban was the effective government in Afghanistan at the time of the 911 attacks, by all practical purposes, Afghanistan attacked us.
Also, how is his stance towards marijuana ambiguous? Follow state laws, not federal ones, that's his exact stance that he gave in an executive order early in his term.
I agree that it's useless to the discussion to brand him as 'the worst' now or to compare him directly. It's unnecessarily polarizing and I am not arguing this position. But there is quite a list of actual criticism about Obama that makes him far from the savior he was marketed out to be and a lot of this image remains today. When we're speaking about Obama and Bush, we are just talking about different shades of grey - it's politics after all. And I think that actual criticism is important here. left vs right is a false dichotomy and I think that was the purpose of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Well as far as I know, the group that attacked NYC '01 was a group of pissed of Saudi's rather than Afghans that had been previously trained by the CIA to fight against the Russians and that were allowed to reside in Afghanistan - rather by chance then anything else. To attack Afghanistan was pretty random. And before starting a full blown war, I would guess a sane person would pay attention to some of the technical details.Quote:
The Taliban was the effective government in Afghanistan at the time of the 911 attacks, by all practical purposes, Afghanistan attacked us.
Except he also said that it shouldn't be illegal. And then when asked during that online question thing (marijuana legalisation was the top question) he just shunned all his online voters who basically got him elected in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Bush was worse though, as Ninja said.
You're forgetting tons of shit he did already.
One thing that comes to mind is not allowing any donations or foreign aid to go toward contraception advice. For example in Africa the people helping there were not allowed to discuss either contraception or abortion.
Which is obviously not good for the AIDS epidemic and overpopulation.
Also the abstinence only policy for sex education and also no child left behind bullshit.
'Worst president ever'? I thought that kind of hyperbole is reserved for bickering children, not serious political discussions. You really think the two worst presidents both happened to hold office in the last two terms out of more than fifty? Or do you think you may be slightly skewing things towards your times?
I missed this one, sorry. Just one example concerning medical marihuana recently:Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
ASA*:*Obama DOJ Conducts Aggressive Medical Marijuana Raids in Spokane as Bill Hits WA Governor's Desk
ASA*:*Medical Marijuana Report Card Gives Obama Failing Grade for Broken Promises & Half-Measures
Very different from earlier statements, he is coming down quite hard on medical marihuana.
Uhm... those were Bush policies, both have been reversed. We ARE giving aid for contraception and abortion supporting countries, that happened in the first week of his presidency. No Child Left Behind has been largely revoked, again that was a Bush screwup, not an Obama one.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
As for pot, does anybody really care that much? If you wanna smoke pot, just go out and get it. The laws aren't stopping you. I'm all for it's legalization, but I think Obama has significantly more important things to focus on right now. Health care, civil rights, green technologies, two wars, and the economy are much bigger issues, and he's made leaps forwards in all of them, where as Bush moved them all backwards.
I'm definitely not one to dismiss the negatives during Obama's administration (those that I'm aware of, at least), but I don't think a lot of people are giving him his due credit. I'm a bit on the fence about how I feel about his term overall, but there are a few things that shouldn't be ignored:
What the fuck has Obama done so far?
Why 'WTF Has Obama Done So Far.com' Isn't Helping Obama | Cracked.comQuote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut
;)
(i know, it's cracked)
Awww. I love Cracked, and the site's blocked here at work. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by dajo
False....my brother (who's under a private contract) is still over there, and I have another brother of mine that's going in a few months under a private contract. As for how many troops are out there...that's also bogus. Many of them came back home, and redeployed shortly after under a different operation title so they (the press) can sugar coat that there are less combat arms units out there. They have different titles, but they're doing the same thing. I get my info from people who are over there on a daily basis...not the associated press.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
As for the original topic. He's done exactly what I've thought he was going to do. More of the same. When it comes to government, one hand just washes the other. If they keep the nation divided and clouded with lies, it's people end up doing is pointing fingers at each other. The entire voting process has been a continuous choice of picking the "lesser evil". I can't think of one politician that has ever shared all of my views, but I can think of tons of them who told the public what they thought they wanted to hear, and went completely against it.
I've come to the conclusion that the government, and media was garbage a long time ago. The hard part is figuring out what would actually fix it.
Actually there is a valid view that the more recent the president the worse he is. There is a definite trend since the beginning of our country for president to expand their powers. So each president gets more powers than the last, each president has more control than the last. They also seem to spend more and more. So Bush was spending more than the first thirty combined, and then Obama is spending even more than that. So there is an obvious trend. If you judge a president by the debt, or how invasive their policies are, or how much they increase the government, the newer ones are far worse than the ones that came before them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xei
You asked me to elaborate on marihuana, it was just one of the examples. It's the bigger issues that I rather criticize. Take the war on drugs for example that actually has strong negative effects that he will do nothing about. But what I am more concerned about is the expansion of the secretive state, while advocating more transparency of the government at first in 2009. When Bush did it, people were complaining, yet Obama has been driving this route since day one. Many of his policies are along these lines. On the one hand, he speaks out against torture, then he stops investigation into torture by declaring it a state secret and making the government immune to judicial reviews. But he signed to close that one famous facility, so it's alright. He actually spends more on the war on terror, *cough*sorry, the Overseas Contingency Operation than Bush ever did, yet in 2009 he once declared to 'end it'. He was rewarded the nobel peace price for campaigning on military reduction, yet he spent much more than anybody before. Prolonged Detention and his handling of the Patriot Act extension is just the tip of the iceberg. Thank you Auron for bringing up the issue with private contract soldiers, I read about it before. It demonstrates (again) very nicely, how by changing semantics and technicalities, he can keep his promise while remaining the status quo or even exceeding it. I believe it is called having your cake and eating it too. Or doublespeak, make your pick. But ultimately it shows yet again that, while he sure may be a persuasive public speaker, it doesn't matter who is in office.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
I though it was pretty clear that I was saying those were bush's policies, and supporting some of your claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
Really? More important things to do than stopping 800,000 people going to jail every year, wasting $40 billion every year and sending armed bullies in to old peoples homes, giving them heart attacks and killing their dogs?Quote:
Originally Posted by ninja9578
I mean, signing a piece of paper probably just ain't worth it huh?
Honestly....
The work to good outcome ratio is like 1:90 billion. It's not hard to do, it's not like he has to stop doing everything else forever to sign a piece of paper saying Cannabis is now legal.
Also, this would play a huge part in 4 and a half of those thing you mentioned.
Health Care - obvious
Civil Rights - obvious
Green Technologies - I'm sure this is obvious, with regards to Hemp.
Two wars - The war on drugs is a war, which would at least be on the road to ending.
Economy - $40 billion a year to stop people smoking a plant..... sure could use that money for better things.
Yeah man...he's gotta make sure that Patriot Act gets renewed and ink is the most expensive liquid in the world. /sarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Hah, I look forward to the day a leading politician admits that The War on Drugs was a moronic idea and a miserable failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommo
Unfortunately that happens to be too sensible and accurate, so it'll never happen.
Just out of curiosity, of those claiming they gave up on the government, or that they realized it's useless, or whatever, how many of you still vote?
And while I liked the OP, I'd have to put Lincoln or FDR down as worst president(s) overall.
2004 was the last time I voted.Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUELINE976
For those that didn't read the OP, it states that those that believed GW to be the worst must now apply that label to Obama because he has done the same negative things that Bush did and more. It did not adopt the position that either of those presidents were in fact "the worst", or that such a label can ever be accurately applied.
Also, Ninja; you realize how ignorant/bigoted/sheltered/clueless it makes you sound to label everything you disagree with as "from Alabama" right?
From what I've gathered, Bush sped up America's militarization and brought like-minded folks to power in his government. Has Obama taken as many militarist/imperialist strides?
Honest question, I could really use an answer. =/
Well, the like minded people that Obama brought on board would be members of the banking class as well as powerful and influential corporate players. He expanded the war in Afghanistan, continued the war in Iraq, renewed the patriot act, engaged in hostilities in Libya (although claims that since it is drones firing missiles there, it is technically not "hostilities"). His "Universal Healthcare" came out looking more like "required health insurance" that benefits the insurance companies above all else, he refused to allow investigations and prosecutions for the crimes committed by the Bush administration including 6.6 Billion dollars that were possibly stolen by private contractors (read:haliburton) during the Iraq war. He reneged on shutting down Guantanamo and continues the unconstitutional detainment and torture that is being perpetrated there. He has given more money to banks and allowed the federal reserve to continue sending U.S. currency to foreign banks. Should I go on?
Let's not forget Yemen.
Status update.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneironaut