Thread: Language

Cultural evolution. Humans are social creatures and any new form of communication normally catches on quickly because of the basic human need to socialize with other human beings. Not to mention it had thousands of years to develop.

If it's important, it gets used and therefore passed on.

Now we have so many words because we think more things are important, rather than just "AHHHH! TIGER!"

fail.

Hunter gatherer languages are plenty complex because hunter gatherers think that plenty of things are importantant. Not just "ahh! tiger!" On the whole, they'll be able to recognize every single plant and animal and fungus in their region as well as most minerals that are accessible.

On the whole, the question of the evolution of language is an open and contentious area of research. This makes it difficult to answer the question with anything other than idle and ignorant speculation.

I hardly think having lots of nouns makes a language 'complex', Philosopher.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

fail.

Hunter gatherer languages are plenty complex because hunter gatherers think that plenty of things are importantant. Not just "ahh! tiger!" On the whole, they'll be able to recognize every single plant and animal and fungus in their region as well as most minerals that are accessible.

On the whole, the question of the evolution of language is an open and contentious area of research. This makes it difficult to answer the question with anything other than idle and ignorant speculation.

Besides Xei's pwn right there....
We're talking about the very early days, how language evolved. They didn't instantly have words for everything even mildly important. The most important ones came first. Predator words.

Plant words probably came later because it's not as important. All you have to do is show a person what it looks like.
You can't always see a predator and it's a life or death situation.

Anyway, the point is, words develop when there is a perceived need to have a word for something.

Originally Posted by Xei

I hardly think having lots of nouns makes a language 'complex', Philosopher.

Regardless, the most complex languages do tend to be those spoken by the fewest people in the greatest isolation for the longest time, which does offer some insight into the origins and early growth of language. Humans and other social animals have a strong drive to interact and communicate with each other, and the more time spent in the company of specific others, the more conventions and rituals we establish between each other. Language does not expand solely or even primarily to convey practical information, but instead, in the absence of contact with outsiders, becomes fraught with idiosyncrasies and inside jokes.

Languages evolve to the culture's need. Some places have 23 words for "snow" while others use the same word to represent "teaching" and "learning" - you can learn a lot about a culture by knowing details about its language.

Originally Posted by Xei

I hardly think having lots of nouns makes a language 'complex', Philosopher.

Didn't yall know? Languages in the pre-Xei era of man were very simplistic.

Congrats, that's the second time in the last few days you've made a puerile ad hominem with no intelligent input. What's your obsession with me? I find it a bit freaky.

Originally Posted by Xei

Congrats, that's the second time in the last few days you've made a puerile ad hominem with no intelligent input. What's your obsession with me? I find it a bit freaky.

You remind me of my teenage self. You're obviously very confident that you know everything, but really what happened was you grew up with some really dumb people that made you feel very smart. But eventually, probably in your early 20's, you'll realize just how little you know. And the funny thing is, the more you believe I'm wrong about this, the harder humility will eventually smack you in the face.

But nevertheless, I'll grant you the last word, youngin.

Originally Posted by Xei

I hardly think having lots of nouns makes a language 'complex', Philosopher.

No. But lots of nouns with complex interaction between them does make a languge "complex". Or do you think that our languages are anything else?

@Tommo. Do you recognize that pretty much everything that you've contributed to this thread is exactly the kind of "idle and ignorant speculation" that I referred to in my first post. How are plants less important than predators? If I don't eat plants, I die just as surely as if I fail to escape a predator. Also, humans haven't really been prey items for anything other than disease for quite a while. Pretty much the only point that you've made is that in talking about the earliest languages, things were simpler. But that's cheap and easy. Your speculation concerning the reasons shows no insight whatsoever.

Originally Posted by cmind

But eventually, probably in your early 20's, you'll realize just how little you know. And the funny thing is, the more you believe I'm wrong about this, the harder humility will eventually smack you in the face.

Shit, I guess you think that Xei's way smarter than me. I'm 30 and it's just starting to hit me...

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Shit, I guess you think that Xei's way smarter than me. I'm 30 and it's just starting to hit me...

Just based on personal experience, YMMV

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

No. But lots of nouns with complex interaction between them does make a languge "complex". Or do you think that our languages are anything else?

No? But that wasn't what you said, was it?

Originally Posted by cmind

You remind me of my teenage self. You're obviously very confident that you know everything, but really what happened was you grew up with some really dumb people that made you feel very smart. But eventually, probably in your early 20's, you'll realize just how little you know. And the funny thing is, the more you believe I'm wrong about this, the harder humility will eventually smack you in the face.

But nevertheless, I'll grant you the last word, youngin.

nope.avi. I've been surrounded by extremely intelligent people for a while now. And each time I age by a year I find that I've just emerged from a state of intellectual immaturity. No doubt I'll be in the same position a year from now. I don't understand what this meta discussion is about, what I said was not contentious and you still haven't identified any issue with it except that I was the one who said it, which doesn't look to me like intellectual maturity or humility.

Originally Posted by Xei

No? But that wasn't what you said, was it?

Sorry. Let me rephrase. Hunter Gatherers are generally aware of all macroscopic components of their ecosystem.

I thought that was an easy enough extrapolation. Ecosystems are complex. Many hunter gatherers manage them succesfully. They understand many of the interrelations. This is one of the reason that they are preferred assistants for field scientists fortunate enough to be working in a region with hunter gatherers. I'm sort of granting hunter gatherer status to certain agricultural communities too, e.g. the New Guinea highlanders and amazonians. They still maintain the tribal structure and gain a lot substinance from wild crafting.