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    Thread: Male Feminists

    1. #26
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      I have to disagree with both Deery and tommo and agree with pretty much everyone else. I don't think all the egalitarian aims of feminism have been totally accomplished--if you live a sufficiently insulated existence that it seems to be so, congratulations. Meanwhile, human trafficking, domestic violence and sexual assault persist, and persist in affecting far more women than men, in developed as well as underdeveloped nations. Boys' clubs and glass ceilings remain largely intact in whole industries, and certainly in many individual companies. Women in many workplaces are still expected to put up with a certain baseline of innuendo, advances, or outright harassment from both clients and coworkers. Both public consensus and the law are on a woman's side in most of these situations, which is a strong social advancement, but neither institutional nor attitudinal patriarchy have been eliminated.

      Women are, however, essentially liberated in the West, and have been for more than a generation. While still inordinately affected by certain social forces, contemporary Western women can hardly claim to be oppressed. In that context, feminism lacks relevance, loses coherence, struggles for both, and in doing so drifts away from any egalitarian impulses to which it may once have adhered.

      In a contemporary context, expressions of feminism are rarely associated with any organized cause or movement, and more often a vague cry of loyalty to Team Grrl ("Except for all you bitches! You know who you are!") and/or a bid for not equal, but greater license than males in a given social or professional context, and/or a simple attempt at novelty to gain (usually male) attention. The aims of equal standing (largely accomplished) and empowerment of women in circumstances where they are still oppressed are better served by advancing a more inclusive humanism and engaging in specific outreach efforts, such as funding or volunteering at womens' shelters, without promoting the notion that only feminists need concern themselves with these issues.
      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    2. #27
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      I think feminism means something different to everyone. For me it's still a fight for equality. By no means is it "females are better than males".

      I grew up in a household where it was to be strongly known that women are subservient to men, extraordinarily inferior in every aspect, and would require frequent discipline and control. I witnessed everything listed and beyond. I couldn't stand any of this, so much anger pent up deep inside. Without being able to hold on to a single idea that women are not subservient to men, I think I would have blown my brains out along time ago. It sounds stupid, I know, but just being able to grasp at such an idea, an idea that perhaps life is different beyond this fucked up household, kept me going through those years. "Feminist" and fighting for equality by nature.

      I don't know if I made any sense. I stopped trying. :/

    3. #28
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      Oh my this got thread got rolling while I was sleeping.

      Yes, Deery, as Darkmatters said it was not meant to be a personal insult for you. I apologize if you got that kind of feeling. I for one, do not like judging people. I have very broad views and I am ready to accept different approaches. Equility in all aspects is a good goal to pursuit, but somehow I think feminist movements have time to time hindered that progress by their own actions that raise ire in whole society, not just in men who do not want women to have rights. At least, that is how I usually encounter feminists around here ( I am talking about own experience here, not as the movement as whole ). They are often very aggressive, very absolute in their views. And unbelievably hard to discuss with, even if you agree. You all know this kind of people, I trust? Not just in feminism.

      As Taosaur mentioned, those goals are not accomplished. Especially, when you take the whole world as goal, but I think things are pretty good here. If I recall right Finnish women did get right to vote as early as 1863 and right to be a candidate in 1906.

      There is a big difference about striving to fix the real problems and bickering about trivial things in every media just to get recognization for your cause or yourself.
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      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    4. #29
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      Ill admit I don't know as much about the subject as I wish I did. But that's the nice thing about conversations like this... we get to bounce ideas off each other and learn new things. Before Tausaur posted, I was thinking that the term feminism does seem a bit old-fashioned now somehow. Or rather it's associated with ideas that have pretty much served their purpose. Wait... before anybody lynches me - I mean the word seems to be associated with a fight against something like 50's era conventions. And also with a few too many angry militant feminazis who use it as cover for their anti-male rants. I like what Nina and Tausaur basically said, that you don't have to call yourself a feminist to be for gender equality.

      Somebody on this board.. it was a week or 2 ago on another thread... said that if you're not feminist then you must hate women. That's not a good attitude, and I feel too many feminists think that way.

    5. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Darkmatters View Post
      Somebody on this board.. it was a week or 2 ago on another thread... said that if you're not feminist then you must hate women. That's not a good attitude, and I feel too many feminists think that way.
      The extreme way of thinking like this is the core problem. In all things. Sadly, it seems to persists like a disease.

      When two seemingly extreme opposites are taken far enough the results usually are similar. If there is no light you cannot see a thing in the darkness. Too much light and you are blinded by it.
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      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    6. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer View Post
      Maybe the problem here is the big F word- feminism. People say they're all for gender equality, but as soon as you drop the big f bomb, which basically is supposed to mean gender equality, people are so lividly against it.
      I was all for feminism when I thought it meant "gender equality," too. Unfortunately, it cannot mean that. The word is inextricably rooted in the feminine and femaleness, which is functionally equivalent to gender equality only so long as women and femininity are significantly disadvantaged in comparison to men and masculinity. Now, society is heterogenous and progress is not evenly distributed, but in general, we have been very near the tipping point since the mid-'80s. Also, not a lot of people are "lividly against" feminism, but I'll pick that up below.

      Quote Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer View Post
      The media has successfully taken misandrist females and associated them with feminism, when actual feminism has nothing to do with misandry.
      I would hazard that most people's first association with feminism is not misandry, but history class, or possibly a historical documentary on PBS. The reaction it provokes is less disapproval than befuddlement, slightly less than if one proclaimed oneself a Whig, but along the same lines. My experience of heterosexual women under the age of 50 or 60 who identify themselves as feminists, uncommon as they are, is certainly not that they hate men. Quite the opposite. Indeed, they are routinely so fond of the attention of men as to go out with three or four of them at a time and pick a fight with four or five more on any given night.

      Quote Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer View Post
      But I do see that it can be associated with bitchy women and that's why nina doesn't want to be one of those bitches.
      I don't want to speak for Nina, and I say this with utmost respect and moderate arousal, but I've never known her to be afraid of being a bitch.
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      If you have a sense of caring for others, you will manifest a kind of inner strength in spite of your own difficulties and problems. With this strength, your own problems will seem less significant and bothersome to you. By going beyond your own problems and taking care of others, you gain inner strength, self-confidence, courage, and a greater sense of calm.Dalai Lama



    7. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      I have to disagree with both Deery and tommo and agree with pretty much everyone else. I don't think all the egalitarian aims of feminism have been totally accomplished--if you live a sufficiently insulated existence that it seems to be so, congratulations. Meanwhile, human trafficking, domestic violence and sexual assault persist, and persist in affecting far more women than men, in developed as well as underdeveloped nations.
      Lol fail. These are individuals who act this way. It has nothing to do with inequality.
      Except for biological inequality; that men want sex more (or at least more often) than women and that men are generally stronger than women.

      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      Boys' clubs and glass ceilings remain largely intact in whole industries, and certainly in many individual companies. Women in many workplaces are still expected to put up with a certain baseline of innuendo, advances, or outright harassment from both clients and coworkers. Both public consensus and the law are on a woman's side in most of these situations, which is a strong social advancement, but neither institutional nor attitudinal patriarchy have been eliminated.
      Basically this (bold). Our laws state men and women are equal and are mostly treated as such. Just because SOME people decide they are better than women, does not mean there is inequality. You aren't going to change those people's perspectives. But the next generations will see it as the norm that men and women are completely equal and even more people in those generations would not even consider gender when applying for a job, for example. Just like no one even considers women voting to be strange now.

      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      In that context, feminism lacks relevance, loses coherence, struggles for both, and in doing so drifts away from any egalitarian impulses to which it may once have adhered.
      This is basically my main point.

      Quote Originally Posted by Taosaur View Post
      I don't want to speak for Nina, and I say this with utmost respect and moderate arousal, but I've never known her to be afraid of being a bitch.
      What?

      Quote Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer View Post
      Perhaps then I should identify as "humanist". I'm already a secular humanist anyway.

      However, under the banner of "feminism", women gained many rights in this past century, especially in the 60s, so you would be ignorant to not associate the rights women do have now (even the right to vote and work) with feminism.
      I missed this post, but I was going to say this.
      Be a humanist. Fuck feminism.
      Men AND women still have many of their rights violated.
      There are still many things humans are not allowed to do without risking punishment from other oppressive humans.
      Things that they should be allowed to do.
      Last edited by tommo; 08-18-2011 at 01:17 PM.

    8. #33
      Xei
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      To be honest I think Deery just needs to get a life and put her energies into something creative and worthwhile instead of incessantly shouting that she has the right to put her energies into something creative and worthwhile.
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    9. #34
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      This thread has been up for ONE day Xei. And ur already telling her to go do something else with the time she spends on this forum. Shame on you. Shame on you, Xei.

      On-topic. It occured to me that when i grew up with watching a lot of cartoons it was a huge part in the process of my psychological development. As an adult ur not really aware of it but when you put kids in front of a cartoon they see it as real life. And kids are just as likely to copy behaviour from cartoons as they would copy behaviour from other people. It's just in our nature. Now when animators make movies they might not consiously decide to stereotype the male/female to play certain roles. But it does happen. And then when the kid grows up and starts watching the media and still sees the same moral standards, or worsened. Then you have a succesfully brainwashed person until he learns his own values. My point is that media and tv play a big role in setting moral standards to life itself. We need to be aware of that and make changes where necessary . In the very least make sure kids learn the difference between the actual world and the world on screen.

    10. #35
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      What does it mean to be equal? To be of Homosapien class? Is it something subjective, and if so, why is it implied as an objective truth? Can being equal simply be a convenient idea for those that feel weak, or for those who feel sentimental for the weak? How can this idea of 'equalness', that over-generalizes all of mankind, be seen as a sound idea to the masses? If, however there being inequality in the world, should then, the idea of all people being equal be soundly refuted? Hehe
      Last edited by Somii; 08-18-2011 at 04:51 PM.
      I stomp on your ideas.

    11. #36
      Xei
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      Not on the forum. In her life. Deery has an insane amount of pent up anger and it's my guess that feminism is her current outlet for it. I think that's stupid because feminism is obvious, and there are no binding constraints on women in Western society any more. It's an empty thing to focus on; it seems to me absurd to spend so much time arguing about your right to live your life as you want, instead of actually going out into the world and living your life as you want. I can't think of any motivation for that but anger, and it's a waste.

      Quote Originally Posted by Somii View Post
      What does it mean to be equal? To be of Homosapien class? Is it something subjective, and if so, why is it implied as an objective truth? Can being equal simply be a convenient idea for those that feel weak, or for those who feel sentimental for the weak? How can this idea of 'equalness', that over-generalizes all of mankind, be seen as a sound idea to the masses?
      Equal does not mean that everybody is the same. Equal simply means that everybody should have equal rights. Do you disagree with that?
      Last edited by Xei; 08-18-2011 at 04:45 PM.
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    12. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      Not on the forum. In her life. Deery has an insane amount of pent up anger and it's my guess that feminism is her current outlet for it. I think that's stupid because feminism is obvious, and there are no binding constraints on women in Western society any more. It's an empty thing to focus on; it seems to me absurd to spend so much time arguing about your right to live your life as you want, instead of actually going out into the world and living your life as you want. I can't think of any motivation for that but anger, and it's a waste.


      Equal does not mean that everybody is the same. Equal simply means that everybody should have equal rights. Do you disagree with that?
      I don't know. Why should everybody have equal rights? Will you be taking a subjectivism stance of morality to express this answer? If so, maybe it'll be of the weak vs protecting the weak mentality I presupposed? Tell me, Xei, this imaginative belief of yours.
      I stomp on your ideas.

    13. #38
      Xei
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      By symmetry, I suppose. I recognise that everybody else is a human and so the natural thing to do is to give the same rights to each rather than different rights for some arbitrary difference.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      By symmetry, I suppose. I recognise that everybody else is a human and so the natural thing to do is to give the same rights to each rather than different rights for some arbitrary difference.
      The natural thing to do, huh. OK.
      I stomp on your ideas.

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      Is there a particular reason why you would not want all people to be treated as equal grounds? Just out of curiosity.
      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    16. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by Somii View Post
      The natural thing to do, huh. OK.
      Great counterargument. I concede that my ideas have been thoroughly stomped upon by the Nietzsche wannabe.

    17. #42
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      B00B13Z R G3WD.

      Your argument is invalid.

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    18. #43
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      I doubt he has the mustaches to be.

      Dthoughts : I have pondered the same thing. But instead of cartoons I have thought more of fairytales. When I was a child, fairytales were fascinating and fun. Now, when I think of them, as adult. Well.. they are shitty. They are full of all kinds of stereotypical behavior, racism, worship of monarchy and such.

      But yeah, I think cartoons are a bit more "today" as you said
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      Jujutsu is the gentle art. It's the art where a small man is going to prove to you, no matter how strong you are, no matter how mad you get, that you're going to have to accept defeat. That's what jujutsu is.

    19. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by tommo View Post
      These are individuals who act this way. It has nothing to do with inequality.
      If it has nothing to do with inequality, then why does it more ruitinely occur to women? What definition of 'inequality' are you using?

      Quote Originally Posted by Xei View Post
      By symmetry, I suppose.
      I'm gradually coming the conclusion that all good arguments are based on symmetry ...
      Last edited by PhilosopherStoned; 08-18-2011 at 09:50 PM.
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    20. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      If it has nothing to do with inequality, then why does it more ruitinely occur to women? What definition of 'inequality' are you using?
      I assume that he means not/un equal... >.>
      As in people feeling this way.

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    21. #46
      Rational Spiritualist DrunkenArse's Avatar
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      But then if sex serves as an effective determinate of a persons likelyhood of being a victim of human trafficking, then how can we say that full sexual equality has been achieved?
      Previously PhilosopherStoned

    22. #47
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      Men are not the only people who are sexist, fyi. Women do it just as well if not better.
      http://www.cbs.com/daytime/the_talk/...K2G3c1Bdr0rTyt
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    23. #48
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      But then if sex serves as an effective determinate of a persons likelyhood of being a victim of human trafficking, then how can we say that full sexual equality has been achieved?
      Idk go talk to the human traffickers then.
      That's like saying, if unemployed people collect welfare and then get a job, but hate their new job, who's to say that they won't quit their job and go back to welfare?

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    24. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned View Post
      But then if sex serves as an effective determinate of a persons likelyhood of being a victim of human trafficking, then how can we say that full sexual equality has been achieved?
      Tommo did make a good point.. sex crimes are committed by sick people. Are you saying that depraved men (the ones who commit sex crimes) should victimize men as much as they victimize women?

      Sex crimes are also a reminder that sex reaches down into deep archetypal parts of the psyche, and can't be fully socially conditioned.

    25. #50
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      No. That's a sloppy strawman argument of a rhetorical question. I'm saying that by any sane definition of equality, sexual equality has not been achieved. If it had been achieved then sex would not be a meaningfull determinate of the probability of you being kidnapped and sold to be raped.

      I really don't see the problem here.

      EDIT:
      The mechanism through which it happens is entirely besides the point.
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