Should we strive to suffer?

[Arra]

People who have experienced severe misfortune in their lives are often looked highly upon. Those who have suffered near-fatal illnesses, who have been drug addicts or homeless, people who have been driven so far into depression that they attempted suicide, those who have been financially poor and have had difficulty even affording basic food, people whose dads beat them when they were children, rape victims. It seems these people are revered by the public, and it is easy to see why. They have experienced degrees of suffering which most have not. They have learned from their experiences and might have matured faster than they would have otherwise. They are, it seems, viewed as better people in general for having suffered. My first question is, are we justified in viewing people who have suffered greatly in the past as superior in some way to the general public? My second question is addressed to anyone who would answer yes to the first. If it is true that those who suffer become better people, should we all strive to suffer? Throughout my life I've believed, on a semi-subconscious level, that I should. It might sound ridiculous, but I've found myself wishing that I could experience homelessness, that I could be beaten or raped, or that I could suffer by some other means, so that I could move beyond the experience and turn into a better, more complete person than I was before. I've found myself frustrated with the fact that I come from an upper-middle class family and have parents who will pay for my college. Has anyone experienced similar feelings? Should we all strive to suffer to some extent so that we can eventually become better people with greater understandings of the world?

[Darkmatters]

I think this ties in with one of the major themes in Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket. To oversimplify - the new recruits were eager to experience combat, because the vets who had been face to face with death seemed to be somehow better... like they've seen something that changed them and the newbies thought it made them super-cool. The ones who had seen real combat action had what they called the thousand yard stare... also known alternately as stone-eyed killers. The green recruits all wanted that. Well, by the end of the movie the ones left alive had it - but at what cost. Essentially it cost them their souls - their very humanity. They went in eager fresh-faced youths and came out of the meatgrinder hollow empty killers. Suffering changes you permanently, and what you lose can't be gained back. Suffering is not something to seek out. It will find you, trust me. If it's little more than teen angst, then you're one of the lucky ones.

[Seroquel]

Damn. Eloquently put Darkmatters. Good synopses.

[Unelias]

A good post Darkmatters. I especially agree with the last bit that suffering will come without seeking. However, I must also say that experience is what counts. Your soldier example is a good one since killing other people is pretty much all about experience. A man who has experienced the ruthlessness and chaos of the battlefield and combat situation has a way better chance of surviving than someone who just relies on his base instincts. I am not saying that it should always be "suffering" as Dianeva said, but it is always about experience. Frankly, suffering experiences tend to shape us more than enjoyable ones. I can say from personal persective that I have had those experiences, maybe too much even, but the reward ( if you can speak it in that tone) is that you grow as person. You adapt new skills, self-confidence and maybe above all you start to think in new ways. It is not bullshit when they say that returning from the brink of the death changes people. Of course it changes. Unfortunatetly, those suffering experiences usually also scar you in very horrid ways. The reason why I think like this is very simple. I have seen it in action. Now, if you think of situations where your head is most under pressure and your actions become less intelligent and more on instinct are those where death and fear are present. Namely, situations where your life is threathened. War I have not experienced but combat more than plenty. A guy with 1 year of *experience* will 9 out of 10 cases destroy a guy with 10 years of training and not real experience in a fight. Other examples are accident situations. First aid or medical help. A guy who has once given a real first aid, usually can act a lot better than a guy who has only done it in a classroom or in courses. It is not about how really knows best, it is about who can bypass those walls of his mind and apply that knowledge in real situation. Not to fall apart and go in shock. Now, for Dianevas original post My first question is, are we justified in viewing people who have suffered greatly in the past as superior in some way to the general public? No, I think you should not see them as superior just because they have suffered. Not all people go fine with suffering experiences. Some may not cope well with it and end up to alchoholics or develop mental illnesses. But usually you don't hear that much about those people, because it is a lot better to show people in news and media who survived and do well. A lot better for business. If it is true that those who suffer become better people, should we all strive to suffer? I think we should strife to develop ourselfs in all thinkable ways. Suffering is not the only one. Life usually puts challenges on your path, in which you have to usually suffer. That is your test to survive. If you do, then you are stronger than the past you. So to answer your question directly. No, seek challenges. If they come with suffering, that is life. Challenges help you grow as person. Overcoming your own fears makes your stronger. /end rant

[khh]

Suffering can bring about many changes. It can make you more selfless, more willing to help others. Even smarter. But it can also destroy you, and it will always leave a scar. Most I've spoken to who've experienced stuff seem ambivalent about it. Like it was an experience they perhaps wouldn't be without, but that it wasn't worth it.

[StonedApe]

People who have experienced severe misfortune in their lives are often looked highly upon. Those who have suffered near-fatal illnesses, who have been drug addicts or homeless, people who have been driven so far into depression that they attempted suicide, those who have been financially poor and have had difficulty even affording basic food, people whose dads beat them when they were children, rape victims. It seems these people are revered by the public, and it is easy to see why. They have experienced degrees of suffering which most have not. They have learned from their experiences and might have matured faster than they would have otherwise. They are, it seems, viewed as better people in general for having suffered. My first question is, are we justified in viewing people who have suffered greatly in the past as superior in some way to the general public? My second question is addressed to anyone who would answer yes to the first. If it is true that those who suffer become better people, should we all strive to suffer? Throughout my life I've believed, on a semi-subconscious level, that I should. It might sound ridiculous, but I've found myself wishing that I could experience homelessness, that I could be beaten or raped, or that I could suffer by some other means, so that I could move beyond the experience and turn into a better, more complete person than I was before. I've found myself frustrated with the fact that I come from an upper-middle class family and have parents who will pay for my college. Has anyone experienced similar feelings? Should we all strive to suffer to some extent so that we can eventually become better people with greater understandings of the world? It's fine to revere those who have suffered, but not for their suffering, for their wisdom. Romanticizing suffering is a really bad idea. On top of this there's plenty of suffering all around you, at least if you live on earth. Just stop ignoring it and looking at things from a one dimensional perspective. People are so impersonal now, maybe they've always been. You can be a complete person right now. Just look at yourself in the mirror and realize how valuable life truly is. Is pretty simple, and if you try to put it into words it sounds cliche and lame, but just look around you.

[tommo]

should we all strive to suffer? Throughout my life I've believed, on a semi-subconscious level, that I should. It might sound ridiculous, but I've found myself wishing that I could experience homelessness, that I could be beaten or raped, or that I could suffer by some other means, so that I could move beyond the experience and turn into a better, more complete person than I was before. I've found myself frustrated with the fact that I come from an upper-middle class family and have parents who will pay for my college. Has anyone experienced similar feelings? Should we all strive to suffer to some extent so that we can eventually become better people with greater understandings of the world? I didn't answer yes to your first question. But I want to answer this second question anyway. Striving to suffer will not make you suffer. If you are trying to feel bad, you won't. Even if you starved yourself almost to death, you still would not suffer because you're thinking about trying to make yourself suffer, you're doing it to yourself. I used to think all those things. And I still hate, for example, getting presents for birthdays or christmas. It just feels like such a waste, when people are suffering everywhere with not enough food to eat, while I get some piece of crap I will probably use once. Which is what most presents are. So I think that you need to use your extra wealth for good. That's the only solution I've found. Get money for christmas and birthdays, donate most of it to a charity. Or all of it. You don't have to suffer yourself, you can live a good life and help others to not suffer as well. My brother had a good chance of getting a heap of money a while ago for doing basically nothing. He turned it down because he read about this guy who had a similar sort of opportunity (in regards to getting heaps of money, not that actual way of getting it) and the guy had realised that most people who get rich, end up being fucked over by it in some way or another. It makes their life worse. What I would have done in that situation is get that money and donate most of it to charities, so it wouldn't corrupt me and I could help others and feel good. I'm kinda tired so I'm not writing very well. But I hope you get the point. Let your parents pay for college. Get a good job and earn tonnes of money. If that is what you want to do. And use your advantages to help others. That is basically my advice in short. Don't suffer because others are and you feel bad about it. That helps no one. And just makes one more person suffer for no reason.

[DeeryTheDeer]

Like others have said, it's not the suffering, although that is a part of it. It's being strong enough to come out of it a better person. It's basically showing freedom and power by not allowing even the worst of things to set you back, so that most anything is possible. So we shouldn't strive to suffer, we should strive to take risks for what will give us happiness and meaning in life. Literally anything that's worth doing contains some risk of failure and suffering: traveling the world, making a career, taking a stand for something, doing things that would scare you like skydiving, etc. The alternative is much worse: sitting around for 90 years, never doing anything, never going anywhere, never living, in fear of what could happen. Don't let fear get in your way, especially fear of what others may think of you. And of course help other people. I used to have a similar thought, like what is the meaning of life? To just have fun and be happy? Isn't that simplistic, hedonistic and selfish? Shouldn't I deserve to suffer, and not always be happy?

[Wayfaerer]

I definitely get where your coming from. I'm grateful for the suffering I've been through. It put my back against the wall and forced me to seek alternatives for the happiness I wasn't getting. It made me a much more thoughtful and observative person. If I hadn't gone through my suffering I might have turned into some shallow guedo or something D: but I agree that it can't be sought out, it's bound to happen soon enough lol

[Arra]

I agree with some of what people are saying. Experience is probably what I mean, and a lot of those experiences which cause personal growth do involve suffering. But suffering itself should probably not be sought out for reasons people have given. Extreme examples, like that combat example, aren't good representatives of all types of suffering. I wouldn't desire to be left a cold-hearted killer. I'm thinking more of the type of suffering that emotionally damages maybe a little, but which the person is eventually able to move beyond and become a wiser person for having experienced. In some cases, I'd consider the cost to be worth it. I'd consider the small amount of experiences involving suffering I've been through to be examples of these cases. Some things are harsh to live through, hurt to even remember, and if I imagine having to live through them again I would not want to, but I'm still glad that I did for the reasons I've given. But I know there is a lot more I could experience and have found myself wishing that more could happen in my life. Coincidentally I'm going skydiving in 3 days, and I suppose the decision was made partly for the reason I'm expressing in the OP. Not that it will involve suffering... just experience, and since I've never done it I don't know what the experience will be exactly, and how it will change me mentally, if at all. The term 'teen angst' has always bothered me. I was genuinely miserable when I was a teenager, perhaps for stupid reasons, but the experience of the misery was genuine and as much or more than I experience now while confronted with more 'real' problems. That term seems kind of mocking. I guess that might be a topic for another thread though, what suffering really is.

[Darkmatters]

I suppose the reason I posted what I did is to simply show the extreme example. And I also agree about teen angst... when I wrote that I didn't really mean it toward you personally, only in general to people about your age with the same feelings. Hey, I was there myself once! Sorry, didn't mean it to sound condescending. I think part of what you're expressing here is simply a very natural yearning to be free of your constraints. Up through the 20s most of us live a pretty tame life, being protected and sheltered by parents and - if we're upper middle class - living in relative comfort. That's a long time to feel pampered and coddled. It becomes like a comfortable prison.

[Arra]

(Drinking) Yes, I definitely have that need to be free of constraints, and it's okay, I agree with your post mostly.

[DrunkenArse]

I agree that suffering is never to be knowingly created for either yourself or others because there's plenty of it to be had and seen in the world. I also agree from personal experience that it can be incredibly transformative. It isn't always transformative though. I was a very angsty teen from about third grade. That sort of suffering is useless. It's poor me sort of bullshit. At least it was for me. The attitude that leads to it is counter-productive to learning from suffering. That's why it goes on for so long I think that the key to turning suffering into a transformative experience is to turn it into an opportunity. There's a duality between the statements "all things happen for a reason" and "every problem is an opportunity". I of course favor the latter because it leads one to action in finding the opportunity. Teen angst is just sort of wallowing in the problems. I had my rib broken by a cop a few weeks ago. It was the best experience of my life. Everything hurt. Breathing wrong hurt, moving wrong, walking wrong, laughing, coughing, sneezing, getting up, sitting down, you name it. But I had started meditating a few days earlier and paying attention to mindfulness. It helped me realize how slovenly my motions and posture were. It made me pay attention to my breathing. Further, I thought that he was going to kill me. That experience made me realize how much of a role fear played in my life. I began to be aware of the sensation of fear in a mindful way. I very much became aware of my death. The dirty fucker changed my life. In a good way too. Blessings upon him. But that's because I'd already put a lot of time into thinking and finding opportunities. I had developed a lot of "karma" in that regard. So I was ready for it and it happened. It could have been anything. It's not like it was "meant to be" or any other metaphysical masturbation. I just took it as an oppurtunity to find out about myself. If I had taken previous opportunities, I never would have been in that situation to begin with. Now when I sit with my begging bowl (my preferred way of getting my morning coffee) I notice the greed that I feel towards people when they walk by and the suffering that it creates in myself. I think that that's a much better way for me (at this point in time) to find out about myself than getting beaten by cops. Sitting and knowing that I'm sitting is very good as well. I think that looking within oneself is a safer and more effective way to approach suffering than to glorify it, seek it out, or in other ways build it up. That doesn't do any good until you look within yourslef anyways so why not just jump right to that.

[Malac Reborn]

Suffering makes us into a 'better' person? Ha! I don't see where you guys came up with such nonsense.

[Laughing Man]

It seems these people are revered by the public, and it is easy to see why. They have experienced degrees of suffering which most have not. They have learned from their experiences and might have matured faster than they would have otherwise. They are, it seems, viewed as better people in general for having suffered. My first question is, are we justified in viewing people who have suffered greatly in the past as superior in some way to the general public? Are they revered, or are they pitied? There is a difference. At least I see one. The revered are products of their own actions which place them on a higher level then the common. The pitied are products of the actions of others and are placed on a *different* level then the common.

[Wayfaerer]

Suffering makes us into a 'better' person? Ha! I don't see where you guys came up with such nonsense. Not the suffering, the obstacle that caused suffering and provided a challenge to overcome.

[Malac Reborn]

Not the suffering, the obstacle that caused suffering and provided a challenge to overcome. So, the presence of a challenging obstacle is that which makes us a better person? Obviously if it is challenging then what is implied is that one is insufficient in overcoming it with ease. Overcoming it with ease then, would mean for one to acquire sufficiency to do so. If the 'move' from insuffiency to sufficiency is that which makes a person better, then it is the 'move' that causes a person to become better. The obstacle merely provides a reason for us to make our 'move' to become a better person.

[Darkmatters]

Simply moving does nothing for us unless it's somehow difficult or challenging. I don't get a sense of accomplishment from walking up a flight of stairs, but I do from climbing a mountain (obstacle).

[Unelias]

The obstacle may provide you with the reason if you have nothing else on your mind than survival instinct. Humans, however, are installed with large scale of emotions and motivations that give you the reason and the strength to overcome obstacles. I truly hope you are not using word "better" to define a person with better morality? But yes, you have a point. Yet I don't think anybody claimed that it is the suffering that truly makes people "better" or stronger. OP just tossed the idea on the air to get discussion going. Challenges are the heart of life, so to speak. They can be really minor or they can be world consuming for you. Check my sig for further information for this matter. It summarizes my thoughts on your point. EDIT: Argh. Sniped by Darkmatters But yeah, his post goes well before mine

[Darkmatters]

Yup - gotta get up PRITTY early....

[Wayfaerer]

So, the presence of a challenging obstacle is that which makes us a better person? Obviously if it is challenging then what is implied is that one is insufficient in overcoming it with ease. Overcoming it with ease then, would mean for one to acquire sufficiency to do so. If the 'move' from insuffiency to sufficiency is that which makes a person better, then it is the 'move' that causes a person to become better. The obstacle merely provides a reason for us to make our 'move' to become a better person. Ok I could have worded it better. It's not the obstacle itself that makes us better people, it's the fight.

[DeletePlease]

I agree that suffering is never to be knowingly created for either yourself or others because there's plenty of it to be had and seen in the world. I also agree from personal experience that it can be incredibly transformative. It isn't always transformative though. I was a very angsty teen from about third grade. That sort of suffering is useless. It's poor me sort of bullshit. At least it was for me. The attitude that leads to it is counter-productive to learning from suffering. That's why it goes on for so long I think that the key to turning suffering into a transformative experience is to turn it into an opportunity. There's a duality between the statements "all things happen for a reason" and "every problem is an opportunity". I of course favor the latter because it leads one to action in finding the opportunity. Teen angst is just sort of wallowing in the problems. I had my rib broken by a cop a few weeks ago. It was the best experience of my life. Everything hurt. Breathing wrong hurt, moving wrong, walking wrong, laughing, coughing, sneezing, getting up, sitting down, you name it. But I had started meditating a few days earlier and paying attention to mindfulness. It helped me realize how slovenly my motions and posture were. It made me pay attention to my breathing. Further, I thought that he was going to kill me. That experience made me realize how much of a role fear played in my life. I began to be aware of the sensation of fear in a mindful way. I very much became aware of my death. The dirty fucker changed my life. In a good way too. Blessings upon him. But that's because I'd already put a lot of time into thinking and finding opportunities. I had developed a lot of "karma" in that regard. So I was ready for it and it happened. It could have been anything. It's not like it was "meant to be" or any other metaphysical masturbation. I just took it as an oppurtunity to find out about myself. If I had taken previous opportunities, I never would have been in that situation to begin with. Now when I sit with my begging bowl (my preferred way of getting my morning coffee) I notice the greed that I feel towards people when they walk by and the suffering that it creates in myself. I think that that's a much better way for me (at this point in time) to find out about myself than getting beaten by cops. Sitting and knowing that I'm sitting is very good as well. I think that looking within oneself is a safer and more effective way to approach suffering than to glorify it, seek it out, or in other ways build it up. That doesn't do any good until you look within yourslef anyways so why not just jump right to that. Dude, that went deeper than that guy I met at that par--- Um... I mean, that was a real eye-opener, PS. How'd you end up in a scuffle with the boys in blue btw?

[Seroquel]

We shouldn't strive to suffer, suffering comes naturally. We should strive to find ways of making our collective time here more enjoyable. If our most basic of needs are not provided then you cannot blame the people who freak out or who kill themselves.

[Malac Reborn]

Check my sig for further information for this matter. It summarizes my thoughts on your point. EDIT: Argh. Sniped by Darkmatters But yeah, his post goes well before mine Read my sig to understand my purpose for replying back to you when I say that your 'sigophy' is flawed. I think we found a new reason for you to get better. Hahaha I crack myself up! uber much Btw, I wouldn't panic about darkmatter's sniping - he shot blank bullets.

[Unelias]

Yes, I had fair suspicion that you were a troll, but it is one of my personal traits to try and hold civilized conversation. I have nothing else to discuss with you in this matter.