The Dangers of Anti-Depressant Drugs. Big Pharma

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeU6I2qOY3k

This is crazy how most dangerous drugs are legal. I'm worried that my mother is on Prozac now, my girlfriends mother is on some Bi-Polar medicine and she completely flips out sometimes, and I know it's the drugs doing this.

Some of the horror stories I hear from the anti-depressant Effexor were unbelievable...to see people suffering like this, from a drug that doctors prescribe all the time. I think the worst part of all this is the people that kill their families and slay babies are all on some form of SSRI like Alex Jones pointed out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRPB_AvuyKU&feature=related

Jesus..I hope this wakes some people up..Thank God I learned meditation.

[edit] Mods can you move this to extended discussion..I posted this in the wrong section

Some of the medication they advertise are deadly. They have death as a side effect listed right on the bottle and they say it in your ads on the tv. I don't think anyone should be taking medication if they side effects are worse that what you are trying to treat, and taking multiple medication so they can counteract each others side effects is a losing battle.

I think the biggest problem is that psychiatric medication can be prescribed (last I heard) by pretty much any doctor. Would you go to an Ophthalmologist for a heart surgery? Go to the doctor that specializes in the field and knows what's being prescribed.

General Practicioners messed me up majorly by off-handedly prescribing this and that. Once I started seeing a Psychiatrist, though, and he undid all the past damage, I have benefited tremendously from meds such as Prozac, Provigil and Strattera. It's not an exact science though. Everyone's chemistry is a bit different. Through trial and error (closely supervised) we discovered that Prozac type meds (Celexa, Lexapro) work wonderfully but not Strattera so much.
Go to the person who knows what they're doing.

LOL ALEX JONES.

http://i.imgur.com/N83OO.gif

This is clearly bullshit. The first guy obviously doesn't know the first thing about drugs. He might be right about doctors prescribing it too aggressively, but all the other stuff he says just destroys his credibility completely.

Yeah... unfortunately, my hubby LOVES Alex Jones. I'm given a lot of grief for taking meds.

That guy is such an asshole. Listening to him is as bad as Fox News.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

General Practicioners messed me up majorly by off-handedly prescribing this and that. Once I started seeing a Psychiatrist, though, and he undid all the past damage, I have benefited tremendously from meds such as Prozac, Provigil and Strattera.

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Priceless.

:P Cmind :P
It's been a process. lol He just doesn't say: "Here, take all of these now and let's see what happens."
I've been seeing my p-doc since around 2001.
General MD's, on the other hand... you see them for a couple of hours and they prescribe stuff and never see you again.

He is right in that you need to be careful with the medication. Starting and stopping them, people don't think about it but if you suddenly quit that kind of medication, it can really mess you up too.

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Originally Posted by Zhaylin

:P Cmind :P
It's been a process. lol He just doesn't say: "Here, take all of these now and let's see what happens."
I've been seeing my p-doc since around 2001.
General MD's, on the other hand... you see them for a couple of hours and they prescribe stuff and never see you again.

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Yeah well I started the same way you did, with my GP putting me on several different drugs, but my process has culminated in two things: I am now off all medications, and I now feel better than I ever have. I guess I didn't need the drugs after all. Oops.

Maybe you should have more faith in yourself and less faith in the pill.

Nah... "better living through chemistry" is my motto.
(I've stated truer reasons elsewhere so I'm not going to jack the thread by repeating it).

Alric, I've known several people who had troubles getting off meds. Personally, I don't understand it because I've never had any problems. I've heard it can be pretty bad though.

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Originally Posted by Alric

He is right in that you need to be careful with the medication. Starting and stopping them, people don't think about it but if you suddenly quit that kind of medication, it can really mess you up too.

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That's the whole point I'm trying to make, anything that gives you withdrawals like that isn't good. That's like a doctor prescribing your crack or heroin.

Yea your high is good, but what happens when you miss a dose? If a crack addict suddenly stops smoking, he's going to have some serious problems. Just doesn't seem good to be doped up like that constantly. But it's all good to get high as long as the drug is legal...but people look down upon dope junkies and potheads

I mean Jesus, brain zaps?..from something a doctor gives you. That sounds so painful and excruciating....

I had brain zaps BEFORE I was medicated. I had almost forgotten about that until I watched the video. No one used that term and describing it was nearly impossible lol
I got mine as part of anxiety induced catalepsy.

Which is curious to me now to hear it in connection to meds nearly 10 years later. :huh:

alex jones is a fear monger...

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Originally Posted by Majestic

I mean Jesus, brain zaps?..from something a doctor gives you. That sounds so painful and excruciating....

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Well, I've gone through the whole withdrawal process so I can tell you, the brain zaps are shitty but they're not the worst part. The worst part is that starting a few months after you stop taking the meds, and lasting several months or even years, is a feeling of deep depression and a sort of disconnectedness from your own memories. It's tough to describe, but it's extremely painful -- emotionally. It sort of feels like you're dead and you're a ghost remembering the life you once had.

But like I said, this doesn't happen right away, which is why poor fools like Zhaylin (no offense) can be lead to believe that these symptoms are self generated, when in fact they're withdrawals, plain and simple. They do go away, but only if you stay off the meds. Your doctor WILL shove a script in your face, but luckily they can't force feed you those pills.

Anyway, we all know this deep down, but some people are in denial. A couple of years ago I was saying the exact same stuff Zhaylin was saying, but fortunately I got my hands on a nasty psychedelic called 2C-E and it gave me the clarity to see what I was doing to myself. It was a painful journey, but I'm proud to say that I'm off all drugs now and feeling great. Even better than before the drugs, because now I know my battles are behind me.

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Originally Posted by cmind

Yeah well I started the same way you did, with my GP putting me on several different drugs, but my process has culminated in two things: I am now off all medications, and I now feel better than I ever have. I guess I didn't need the drugs after all. Oops.

Maybe you should have more faith in yourself and less faith in the pill.

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That doesn't mean that everyone should "get off all medications". And Zhaylin's not a fool :roll:

Thanks Seroquel :)

The bottom line is: coming off of ANY med can be painful and/or dangerous.
Talk to your doctor. See a specialist. Pay attention to your body and to any side effects.
Work with your doctor when coming off meds. Don't quit cold turkey.

Hey, I'm very curious about this - I've heard anti-depressants described as disassociatives (is that right?) - in spite of their obvious terrible effects, do they cause a similar disassociation from reality as psychoactive drugs, meaning could there be some benefit in terms of ego-death from using them?

A lot of docs prescribe drugs way too quickly. I think most of us can agree to that. I'm okay with that, pretty much. But in my honest/humble opinion. Most drugs prescribed do not fix the problem. Especially with anti-depressants. The problem is almost always psychological. It is my belief that ur psychological state has to do with the chemistry released in ur brain. Taking drugs will serve to refuel ur brain with the "happy chemicals" you need. But it does nothing whatsoever to fix the long-term issue. And the side-effects that go with it are usually not worth it. Not to mention the extreme setback when you get off the meds and are back to baseline. The fact that you need to gradually lessen the intake and cope with still being psychologically dependant on the drugs sounds a lot like heroin to me.

I wish doctors would prescribe other drugs instead. A good one for therapy is simply Ayahuasca. Thousands of years of traditional use. It is very tested and it is very safe. As long as you follow an appropiate diet. A good ayahuasca trip is much like really intense therapy. Unlike conventional therapy. Once ayahuasca is active, you can't escape. You MUST deal with the issues at hand. They range vastly from person to person. But generally people find long-term peace after even one session with Ayahuasca. It's like years of intense therapy compressed in a few hour experience. That goes along with beautiful visions and profound insights about life itself. And altho i have no evidence to back up this claim i think a mere difference in ur thinking can have the same effect that any drug does to you. But because you have learned to do it naturally you do not have to deal with the unpleasant side-effects that most legal labaratory drugs can give you.

So to sum it up.. :P Pharma drugs can only give short-term solutions to a complicated problem. In some cases this is enough. But i don't think we can keep doing this forever.
Just look up ayahuasca if you haven't already and see for yourself the potential this medicine can have.

Too many people are already taking different kinds of meds. As Dthoughts summed up, anti-depressants never fix the original cause. Some people seem to believe that pills actually cure something. Of course, in case of hard mental illnesses taking drugs is crucial part of treatment, but it is never the main aim. But what I have seen, even here, people who have little problems are diagnosed with mild derpression and given meds. That is not the way in my point of view. Life isn't always easy, but awfully lot seem to think that they are really depressed so they can take meds. I have friends who have been severly depressed and one is bipolar. They need their meds to cope with the treatment. I have never used myself, even thought there have been times in my life when I truly was heavily depressed.

Also, doctors like to prescribe antiobiotics too easily. You should not eat antibiotics untill you have something really bad. They start to lose their effectiveness if constantly used for every flu, combined that they destroy the beneficial bacteria as well.

Hey, ur post reminded me of a friend. Who was psychotic for 2 years. Suffering from hallucinations and delusions. Ever since he took meds for it the effects lessened. And now he is gradually getting off the meds. And does meditation and breathing excersices regularly. He's doing really good now. He's dead afraid to try any hallucinogens because it might, and it probably will reactive his psychotic disorder.
Which brings me to the point i always want to make.. Is it really a disorder? Are we not looking at a natural phenomenom that we do not understand. I think psychologists need to look at alternatives. Instead of always trying to fix and remove the thing that is causing issues. Look at it in a objective light and see if it might unleash some potential. Perhaps simple breathing excersices and the gathering of facts can go a long way in coming to terms with ur personality. Great names are always rumoured to have certain disorders. Our own minds can turn a blessing into a curse. And the other way around..

Don't take my word for it i'm definetly NOT qualified to draw real conclusions. But i urge everyone to gather facts about this. And i hope to do something about this when i finish school.

What is so sad is that stuff like this may stop people who really need it from seeking help.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey, I'm very curious about this - I've heard anti-depressants described as disassociatives (is that right?) - in spite of their obvious terrible effects, do they cause a similar disassociation from reality as psychoactive drugs, meaning could there be some benefit in terms of ego-death from using them?

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No, anti-depressants are much more subtle. Their effects build up slowly over weeks, and if they're working correctly, they should just make you normal again. Which is why they have absolutely no street value.
Also, what obvious terrible effects?

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Most drugs prescribed do not fix the problem. (...) Taking drugs will serve to refuel ur brain with the "happy chemicals" you need. But it does nothing whatsoever to fix the long-term issue.

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Which is why it's recommended with both drugs and therapy for anything more than a mild depression. However drugs are often chosen instead of therapy to treat mild depressions, which I agree might be a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

And the side-effects that go with it are usually not worth it. Not to mention the extreme setback when you get off the meds and are back to baseline. The fact that you need to gradually lessen the intake and cope with still being psychologically dependant on the drugs sounds a lot like heroin to me.

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You don't get that psychologically dependant on anti-depressants, because you can't feel their immediate effects. You do however get physically dependant, because your brain chemistry gets used to the help. But quitting does not leave you back at baseline. Studies show that if your depression is successfully treated with drugs, you are much less likely to have a relapse than if you weren't treated at all. (Not surprisingly drugs+therapy gives the best odds)

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I wish doctors would prescribe other drugs instead. A good one for therapy is simply Ayahuasca. Thousands of years of traditional use. It is very tested and it is very safe. As long as you follow an appropiate diet. A good ayahuasca trip is much like really intense therapy.

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I would like to see more studies on the effectiveness of various psychedelics in treating psychological problems, but unfortunately that's unlikely to happen any time soon, with the current mindset.

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Which brings me to the point i always want to make.. Is it really a disorder? Are we not looking at a natural phenomenom that we do not understand. I think psychologists need to look at alternatives. Instead of always trying to fix and remove the thing that is causing issues. Look at it in a objective light and see if it might unleash some potential.

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If it's something that makes it really hard for people to function in society, if it's something that makes their lives worse... isn't that something we should wish to cure? Sure, some people might have something that's technically a disorder and be fine with it, or even love it. Well, good for them. No need for anyone else to butt in. But when it's a problem, people should be helped.

khh - are you speaking as someone who's actually taken antidepressants?

Also, I just realized - I think I was wrong about them being called dissociatives. But from the way people describe it - it sounds like taking them removes you emotionally from any sense of being in touch with life. Maybe that's completely different from psychoactive drugs, which cause more of an intellectual dissociation rather than emotional. But I'd really like to hear from somebody who's used prescription antidepressants and psychoactve drugs and can speak from experience.

man..ya too smart for me. tryna keep up!

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

khh - are you speaking as someone who's actually taken antidepressants?

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No, just read about it.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Also, I just realized - I think I was wrong about them being called dissociatives. But from the way people describe it - it sounds like taking them removes you emotionally from any sense of being in touch with life. Maybe that's completely different from psychoactive drugs, which cause more of an intellectual dissociation rather than emotional. But I'd really like to hear from somebody who's used prescription antidepressants and psychoactve drugs and can speak from experience.

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That is possible.

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Originally Posted by khh

What is so sad is that stuff like this may stop people who really need it from seeking help.

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I agree. If u are experiencing problems. Talk with ur family. Or if neccesary, talk with a therapist.

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Originally Posted by khh

No, anti-depressants are much more subtle. Their effects build up slowly over weeks, and if they're working correctly, they should just make you normal again. Which is why they have absolutely no street value.

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What is normal? And i used to sell ritalin on the streets.. I believe crazy people crush it and then snort it.

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Originally Posted by khh

You don't get that psychologically dependant on anti-depressants, because you can't feel their immediate effects. You do however get physically dependant, because your brain chemistry gets used to the help. But quitting does not leave you back at baseline. Studies show that if your depression is successfully treated with drugs, you are much less likely to have a relapse than if you weren't treated at all. (Not surprisingly drugs+therapy gives the best odds)

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I made the assumption that, drugs do nothing for the long-term situation. And therapy does. Or meditation and breathing excersice. Self-therapy. Is it not possible that the drugs have nothing to do with it. Except keep you high while you go to therapy? It's the therapy that gives the lasting results imo.

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Originally Posted by khh

I would like to see more studies on the effectiveness of various psychedelics in treating psychological problems, but unfortunately that's unlikely to happen any time soon, with the current mindset.

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Google is ur friends. Erowid is okay but there are better sites. There are litterally thousands of studies on this. Unfortunately, only a few are respected by science.

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Originally Posted by khh

If it's something that makes it really hard for people to function in society, if it's something that makes their lives worse... isn't that something we should wish to cure? Sure, some people might have something that's technically a disorder and be fine with it, or even love it. Well, good for them. No need for anyone else to butt in. But when it's a problem, people should be helped.

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What i'm saying is that. In my point of view. And many others who are diagnosed with mental disorders. See it as natural evolution.(to use the generalized term my ex-psychotic friend gave me) It is the environment that treats it as a problem. But then again, depression is always negative. And is always a problem. But i don't see how depression can be anything but purely psychological. (not saying ur psychological state has no effect on brain chemistry tho. or that current situations have nothing to do with depression)

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I agree. If u are experiencing problems. Talk with ur family. Or if neccesary, talk with a therapist.

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Or talk to your doctor, and he or she can help find out what would be best for you.

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

What is normal? And i used to sell ritalin on the streets.. I believe crazy people crush it and then snort it.

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Normal is not depressed. Ritalin is used to treat ADHD, not depression.

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I made the assumption that, drugs do nothing for the long-term situation. And therapy does. Or meditation and breathing excersice. Self-therapy. Is it not possible that the drugs have nothing to do with it. Except keep you high while you go to therapy? It's the therapy that gives the lasting results imo.

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If anti-depressants did nothing, a study should show that while on drugs the depression should last as long as on a placebo, and that the chance of relapse would be the same. What they do show is improvement on both accounts. That is without therapy of any kind.

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Google is ur friends. Erowid is okay but there are better sites. There are litterally thousands of studies on this. Unfortunately, only a few are respected by science.

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I meant proper scientific experiments. In order for psychedelics to be recognized as treatment, it would have to be proven effective and safe in the same way other medicine has to. Since there's no money in it for corporations (you can't patent it), they don't research it. And the government won't fund the research.

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Originally Posted by Dthoughts

What i'm saying is that. In my point of view. And many others who are diagnosed with mental disorders. See it as natural evolution.(to use the generalized term my ex-psychotic friend gave me) It is the environment that treats it as a problem. But then again, depression is always negative. And is always a problem. But i don't see how depression can be anything but purely psychological.

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There are many disorders which also cause pain. Anxiety disorders obviously cause anxiety. Personality disorders can cause loneliness and isolation. The point is, for many people it is a problem. And if it's a problem, we should try to help.

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Originally Posted by khh

No, just read about it.

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Yeah, that's what I thought. You know nothing.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey, I'm very curious about this - I've heard anti-depressants described as disassociatives (is that right?) - in spite of their obvious terrible effects, do they cause a similar disassociation from reality as psychoactive drugs, meaning could there be some benefit in terms of ego-death from using them?

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I actually heard Ketamine is starting to kick all other forms of anti-depressant medication in the ass.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I actually heard Ketamine is starting to kick all other forms of anti-depressant medication in the ass.

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So far all we know is that it has an immediate positive effect on mood (if you can get over the fact that you're on a dissociative...). Guess what, so does methamphetamine. What matters more is the long term, of which we know nothing.

And this needs to be said: if you're looking for a pill to make you feel good, then your problems will not be solved by any pill.

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Originally Posted by cmind

So far all we know is that it has an immediate positive effect on mood (if you can get over the fact that you're on a dissociative...). Guess what, so does methamphetamine. What matters more is the long term, of which we know nothing.

And this needs to be said: if you're looking for a pill to make you feel good, then your problems will not be solved by any pill.

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Knowledge knowledge every where.

Firstly, meth introduces temporary stimulation into your nervous system which subsides leaving you not only with the depression you had but a new slump from the drug withdrawal. It doesn't even make you happy so much as just stimulated enabling you to temporarily ignore your problems.

Ketamine, on the other hand, manages to set your perspective on the right level so even when you come back your issues don't seem as serious or permanent. The only real way to combat depression is to confront the issues causing depression, of course. But the relationship you're drawing between the two narcotics is completely invalid. One enables you to ignore your problems, the other gives you tools to face them.

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Knowledge knowledge every where.

Firstly, meth introduces temporary stimulation into your nervous system which subsides leaving you not only with the depression you had but a new slump from the drug withdrawal. It doesn't even make you happy so much as just stimulated enabling you to temporarily ignore your problems.

Ketamine, on the other hand, manages to set your perspective on the right level so even when you come back your issues don't seem as serious or permanent. The only real way to combat depression is to confront the issues causing depression, of course. But the relationship you're drawing between the two narcotics is completely invalid. One enables you to ignore your problems, the other gives you tools to face them.

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You could be right, but I'm not going to take your word for it. I mean, people were saying exactly the same kinds of talking points for SSRIs until very recently.

I don't know what meds some of y'all took and under what conditions, but my meds have NEVER made me happy or high. They stabilize my anxiety so I don't fall asleep while having a normal conversation or driving. They make it so I can actually function without being doubled over and immobilized from pain when I have my period.
Some meds turned me into a "zombie". Those meds didn't work so we found something that did.
Provigil helps you function instead of sleeping all day every day, despite your mood or overall health (it's primarily used for narcolepsy but is also useful for delayed sleep syndrome and shift workers as well as anxiety). But I never got "high" off of it unless I was abusing it. And then I wasn't high, I just had more ability to skip sleep for longer.

The goal of meds is to help people function. When used in combination with the care of a qualified therapist, much can be done to improve a persons overall quality of life.

My p-doc discourages herbs and vitamins because he says they're not tested as rigorously and the ingredients aren't measured as accurately as medication. He says the amount of (?) herb can differ from pill to pill so it's hard to get consistent results. He says it's better to get the vitamins and minerals etc from the natural source.
I understand what he's saying, but I still take Green Tea, b12, d3 and a weight loss combo that has apple cider and stuff in it to help prevent gallbladder attacks. I have so many stomach/digestive issues, it's hard for me to get benefit from natural sources, so I do what I can with what's available.

I would like to see more studies done with natural sources.

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Originally Posted by cmind

You could be right, but I'm not going to take your word for it. I mean, people were saying exactly the same kinds of talking points for SSRIs until very recently.

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You shouldn't. At the end of the day, with anything, there's a fine line between therapy and dependency.

Another interesting tool to help people with post-traumatic stress disorder and other psychological trauma is neural feedback, hooking someone up to an EEG machine and letting them navigate through their own mind.

What is qEEG / Brain Mapping? | qEEGsupport.com

It seems like a lot of people who are are against anti-depressants have never taken it themselves and have no idea what they're talking about (especially how it feels to be on it). I had moderate depression and anxiety, and I was miserable. Hardly anything made me happy anymore and daily life always had a rough edge to it, like being dragged across asphalt or gravel with no protection for your skin, as you bleed and crumble away. Lexapro provided the protection. It took slow to finally start working, but eventually I got better. Now I feel like a normal person again, not drugged out or happy all the time, but normal, healthy, and depression never crosses my mind when it used to all the time before the drugs.

That's why people who say crap like this feel like a slap in the face to my health, as if they want people to just go on nothing, no protection, and suffer on their own in the meager hopes that exercise or meditation will do a god damned thing. Because trust me, it doesn't. I exercised on an elliptical every single day in the hopes that I'd feel better, before Lexapro, but I noticed no change. Now I know how my mom feels when she supports medication and bitterly hates people like my dad, who think natural alternatives are the best, and she suffered needlessly in pain and fear for years, also feeling guilty about it as if it was a character weakness and not a real biological condition.

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Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

It seems like a lot of people who are are against anti-depressants have never taken it themselves and have no idea what they're talking about (especially how it feels to be on it).

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Stopped reading right there. On the contrary, I feel the way I do about anti-depressants because I was subjected to them. Before taking them, I did believe they could improve my life. After taking them, I know better.

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Originally Posted by cmind

Stopped reading right there. On the contrary, I feel the way I do about anti-depressants because I was subjected to them. Before taking them, I did believe they could improve my life. After taking them, I know better.

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Just because they didn't do anything for you, doesn't mean that they don't help anyone. I'd also like to quote you on something you said earlier:

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Originally Posted by cmind

Yeah well I started the same way you did, with my GP putting me on several different drugs, but my process has culminated in two things: I am now off all medications, and I now feel better than I ever have. I guess I didn't need the drugs after all. Oops.

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If you feel better than you ever have after you were on (and then off) medication, how can you know for sure they didn't help?

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Originally Posted by khh

Just because they didn't do anything for you, doesn't mean that they don't help anyone. I'd also like to quote you on something you said earlier:

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I didn't say they didn't work as intended. They worked exactly as intended. They are intended to make you into a dissociated drug zombie that doesn't care about anything.

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Originally Posted by khh

If you feel better than you ever have after you were on (and then off) medication, how can you know for sure they didn't help?

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More like scared straight.

If an alcoholic hits rock bottom and that experience drives them to quit the alcohol, and in doing so, make their life better as they're forced to deal with their problems, would you say that the alcohol was a good thing for them? Pretty twisted logic, if you ask me.

I agree that there are dangers to pharmaceutical anti-depressants. However, sometimes the benefits of the anti-depressant drugs outweigh the negatives. Currently speaking as someone taking "Prozac" or Fluoxetine as its technical term, I can truly say that I definitely see the side of what people are worried about in anti-depressants. I find it terrible that there isn't any clear scientific evidence to support what I am about to say; however, speaking from quite a large amount of experience I feel that I have enough knowledge to add some credibility to my argument.

However, before I move on to this I want to mention that before I started taking Prozac I actually took an IQ test before and each month thereafter. In terms of a change in intelligence I see nothing in the results I've gathered that this medication has an effect (well on me at least) to decline a person's overall intelligence quotient. In fact, I've made gains in the past few months as expected with adolescent growth.

The issue in prozac really lies in creativity and imagination. No studies I believe have shown that there is a loss in creativity if an individual does take Prozac; regardless, I believe that if there actually was a practical way to measure a person's creativity, it would be highly controversial. In the past few months I've felt a decrease in my capacity for creative thought. Basically, by minor observation, I might have to admit that I have definitely felt the "numming" effect which Prozac reportedly has. Not only on negative emotions but creativity and imagination as a whole. However, perhaps I'm just a bit paranoid.

Hoping to quit by the end of this year though. We'll see. I'll first need to talk to my psychiatrist who basically hands these pills out like they're OTC. (over the counter). :undecided:

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Originally Posted by cmind

I didn't say they didn't work as intended. They worked exactly as intended. They are intended to make you into a dissociated drug zombie that doesn't care about anything.

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Wow. That idiotic statement just lost you all credibility right there. Do you think I'm a dissociated drug zombie? Do you think I don't care about anything? The effects are actually the opposite. Depression is the condition in which you don't care about anything.

I agree with Dthoughts here that depression is psychological..it's psychological, which may then affect the brain physically. Depression and sadness are just emotional states, Isn't this what a human being is entitled to feel? Sadness is only temporary, you will be happy again, but it's your responsibility to wake up and pay attention. For some reason I think people believe your supposed to just be stuck on happy, but maybe it's in the human experience to feel down sometimes.

If your feeling sad, meditation and breathing exercises will make you feel better..this in turn effects your brain physically..in a positive way. This is proof that you control your own emotional state and don't need to be emotionally controlled by these Pharmaceutical companies and by everyone else for that matter.

This all goes for the depression thing, if your having physical pain than that's something entirely different. my post is referring to mental "dis-orders".

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Originally Posted by Majestic

I agree with Dthoughts here that depression is psychological..it's psychological, which may then affect the brain physically. Depression and sadness are just emotional states, Isn't this what a human being is entitled to feel? Sadness is only temporary, you will be happy again, but it's your responsibility to wake up and pay attention. For some reason I think people believe your supposed to just be stuck on happy, but maybe it's in the human experience to feel down sometimes.

If your feeling sad, meditation and breathing exercises will make you feel better..this in turn effects your brain physically..in a positive way. This is proof that you control your own emotional state and don't need to be emotionally controlled by these Pharmaceutical companies and by everyone else for that matter.

This all goes for the depression thing, if your having physical pain than that's something entirely different. my post is referring to mental "dis-orders".

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Do you even understand what depression is? Apparently you don't. Depression can't be just lumped in with sadness as a trivial, temporary emotional state (which everyone agrees is healthy and natural to feel). Depression is a real condition in which your brain becomes incapable of functioning in a healthy, normal way. Even when you're just sad or blue, there are things that you can enjoy and sadness goes away. With depression, you enjoy nothing, it lasts for a very long time (if not for the rest of your life without treatment) and suicide seems like the only way out. Have you ever experienced depression?

The brain is a physical organ, just like any other part of the body. There is no ghost in the machine. Why should we dismiss real treatment for the brain just because it houses thoughts and emotion? There are much more stigmas associated with brain problems as opposed to stomach problems, or heart problems- even though they're all physical organs.

"Depressed? You're weak and stupid, just get over it."

I see a lot of personal attacks on the character of those who seek treatment for depression, anxiety or other issues that block people from functioning, which quite simply isn't fair, in fact it seems ignorant and bigoted, all in the name of rebelling against "Big Pharma" like good old conspiracy theorists.

Just look at South Korea- their suicide rate is becoming the highest in the world because there is such a stigma against depression, as if it's shameful or insane.

In korea, everyone has to sit in line at school. Doesn't have much free speech. If you talk in class u can expect teachers to wrestle u on the floor and throw a fist in ur face. Korea is awfully obsessed with producing the highest achievers in the world. (By modern standards) Ofcourse suicide rates are high there.

Khh said it. The government won't fund psychedelic research because there is no money in it. Ketamine is like the cross-over between a disassociative and psychedelic drug. It directly pumps up dopamine which is related to the warm and happy feeling that is reported on Ketamine and XTC. You can patent ketamine because it is not a natural source anymore. Plants and Fungi can not be patented because they evolved to be the products they are completely naturally. No human hand was involved in making it so it belongs to anyone on the planet.

If pharmacology was strictly interested in human well-being. We woulden't find so many different pills from different companies that do exactly the same thing. But are made up of analogue structures and different ingredients that might not even be neccesary just to get in on the money.

Stuff like running, breathing excersices, meditation. Isn't just mumbo-jumbo. Work on ur mind, fix ur body crap.
They actually give physical releases of chemicals that pharma drugs can give you. Just humming while u meditate can release endorphine. Which causes a chain reaction of dopamine release. That make peope feel empowered and inspired. And in my experience with a lot of dopamine produce it's very easy to appreciate all the beauty in and around you.

Ofcourse. Different drugs do different things. But all pharma drugs give your brain modified intakes of chemicals. Which are essential for ur well-being. But we are no-where near understanding the possible dangers of these drugs. If you are getting more intake than ur body initially bargained for it will get used to that state. And you will become physically dependant on drug intake. The pharma industry has been around for so shortly. We have no idea what kind of effect some drugs can have on our bodies and our off-spring. And indeed, there are horrible side effects associated with a lot of drugs. Maybe it's time we look at alternatives seriously?

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Originally Posted by Majestic

That's the whole point I'm trying to make, anything that gives you withdrawals like that isn't good. That's like a doctor prescribing your crack or heroin.

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Because all drugs that can cause withdrawal do so with the same severity as crack and heroin, right? I'm prescribed Adderall which is mixed amphetamine salts and if I miss a dose or suddenly stop taking it I'm fine unless I've abused it, in which case I'm still fine but I eat a lot and maybe have one day where nothing feels worth doing, so I lay around.

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Originally Posted by Majestic

Yea your high is good, but what happens when you miss a dose?

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You think people who use medications as prescribed are looking to get high? Sorry, but with anti-depressants especially, you don't really get high... at all. I've taken Prozac (SSRI) and Wellbutrin (dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor), both different types of anti-depressants, and neither ever made me feel like it was a drug I wanted to abuse. Not to mention how they make you feel is highly dependent on your personal brain chemistry. For instance, when I take Adderall I don't talk uncontrollably, I don't fidget around or look for something to do, or otherwise geek/tweek in any way. It makes me able to focus, sit still, and if I take too much, it actually sedates me to the point that I fall asleep. If I take painkillers such as lortabs, rather than make me really lazy and just sit and chill without much talking, I actually talk quite a bit and I move around just as much as I would have before taking it. This is obviously not the normal effect, and it's because my brain chemistry is different than most people's due to an imbalance of neurotransmitters in my brain. People who really suffer from depression have an imbalance of neurotransmitters as well, although not necessarily the same ones as me. Taking these drugs balances this level out, which in turn can stabilize emotions.

One thing I will say is that, in my experience, drugs like these and some others (such as stimulants) can really fuck with your head if you or your doctor doesn't know what they are doing. If you can tell something is wrong, tell your doctor, and if (s)he says to keep taking the meds then tell him/her to fuck off. The kind of state you can be put into isn't worth even the time they say you should wait for the meds to build up in your bloodstream. I am not talking about feeling like a zombie or unemotional, I'm talking about being paranoid, delusional, and/or extremely emotional. If something feels very off to you, then talk to your doctor about weening yourself off the meds or look up which one you're taking and see if it's safe to quit suddenly (in my case, Wellbutrin I can quit cold turkey any time I want, no withdrawal symptoms whatsoever; however, it isn't like most anti-depressants so I wouldn't suggest it for something like a tricyclic or SSRI). What's worse about all this is that dosage changes can make all the difference. I was and still am prescribed 150mg Wellbutrin XL (for ADD, not depression), and I'm just fine on that. In fact, if anything, it stabilizes my emotions and makes it more difficult to get overly upset. Bump my dose up to 300mg, and my world is turned into massive gaping shithole in which my emotions are highly volatile. It was very easy to become upset, and once upset, I would continually build on it. I experienced a lot of difficulty with getting happy/positive again once I got upset (even over something tiny).

That being said, with the right drug and the right dosage, these drugs can be highly beneficial. Any talk of outright outlawing them is petty fear-mongering. Until a better alternative that has been well established turns up, I'm perfectly fine with anti-depressants being prescribed.

edit:

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey, I'm very curious about this - I've heard anti-depressants described as disassociatives (is that right?) - in spite of their obvious terrible effects, do they cause a similar disassociation from reality as psychoactive drugs, meaning could there be some benefit in terms of ego-death from using them?

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I've taken a lot of different types of drugs (really just to try them, most I don't do any more) and I can say from experience that anti-depressants are nothing like dissociatives. Unless you're experiencing hallucinations or delusions of some sort, in most cases I wouldn't consider them psychoactive either. I could maybe see somebody saying you are emotionally detached, as I said above 150mg Wellbutrin XL daily makes it hard for me to become overly upset. I'm sure some people really do experience zombie-ification from some anti-depressants. That's not to say, however, that it is psychoactively dissociative like DXM or Ketamine.

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Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

"Depressed? You're weak and stupid, just get over it."

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You'll be alright Deery.

I don't mean to offend or attack anyone taking meds. I was just stating how their are other ways to treat depression without having to take medication from a doctor.

To answer your question, yea I've been depressed before...deeply, I was suicidal before, I've been in situations that would scare most people on this website. I know what people are depressed are going through. But it passes once you start paying more attention and being awake , rather than having to deal with side effects from medication that is worse than what it's supposed to be curing. It's not like this for everyone, but some people actually die from taking legal medication. This isn't fear mongering..this is just facts.

How many times have you seen television ads about someone dying from a legal medication and to call the number on the screen to sue the company.

Like I said depression ( no matter how deep ) is just an emotional state, and is usually a resistance to your current circumstances.

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Stuff like running, breathing excersices, meditation. Isn't just mumbo-jumbo. Work on ur mind, fix ur body crap.
They actually give physical releases of chemicals that pharma drugs can give you. Just humming while u meditate can release endorphine. Which causes a chain reaction of dopamine release. That make peope feel empowered and inspired. And in my experience with a lot of dopamine produce it's very easy to appreciate all the beauty in and around you.

Ofcourse. Different drugs do different things. But all pharma drugs give your brain modified intakes of chemicals. Which are essential for ur well-being. But we are no-where near understanding the possible dangers of these drugs. If you are getting more intake than ur body initially bargained for it will get used to that state. And you will become physically dependant on drug intake. The pharma industry has been around for so shortly. We have no idea what kind of effect some drugs can have on our bodies and our off-spring. And indeed, there are horrible side effects associated with a lot of drugs. Maybe it's time we look at alternatives seriously?

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Exactly, which goes back to me saying you can change your own brain chemistry..no need for a doctor to do it for you. If your depressed, exercise releases endorphins much like an Anti-Depressant pill, breathing exercises, meditation, playing a musical instruments, running. Sometimes It's just as simple as stop being lazy and awake.

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Originally Posted by Majestic

You'll be alright Deery.

A)I don't mean to offend or attack anyone taking meds. I was just stating how their are other ways to treat depression without having to take medication from a doctor.

B)To answer your question, yea I've been depressed before...deeply, I was suicidal before, I've been in situations that would scare most people on this website. I know what people are depressed are going through. But it passes once you start paying more attention and being awake , rather than having to deal with side effects from medication that is worse than what it's supposed to be curing. It's not like this for everyone, but some people actually die from taking legal medication. This isn't fear mongering..this is just facts.

C)How many times have you seen television ads about someone dying from a legal medication and to call the number on the screen to sue the company.

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My responses to what I've bolded:

A)I agree with you there.

B)Some people actually die from eating food, even if the food isn't poisoned. That's a fact. Millions of people die a year from car accidents, that's a fact. Yet, you don't see me advocating anorexia or for making motor vehicles illegal to drive. What you're doing is fear mongering because you left out facts like those to make the drugs sound worse than they are. If you didn't do it purposefully then you may be a victim of the fear mongering yourself.

C)You realize they make money doing that, right? If you call in, more likely than not you aren't going to win the case. Even more, how's one supposed to know that you can sue for something like that? Oh, I know, market the hell out of it on TV since everyone seems to like that so much. The number of commercials you see is not proportional to how many deaths or ill effects actually exist.

Lastly, I'd like to reiterate what I said before: not everyone's brain chemistry is the same. I agree mild depression should not be treated with anti-depressants because everyone feels blue from time to time, it isn't as much of a neurotransmitter imbalance so much as you just experiencing emotions and being human. However, some people are depressed beyond their control. Their brain is not making enough of something for them to ever be happy, serotonin and dopamine being the prime suspects, usually what the drugs treat for. You seem to think the way I did a few years back, that everything was a choice. The simple fact is that sometimes things are beyond your control and you need extra help, chemical help.

snoop, thanks for answering my question - I thought it was going to be completely ignored.

Majestic, it sounds like you've never actually had clinical depression. It's nothing like just being really sad.

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Originally Posted by DeeryTheDeer

Wow. That idiotic statement just lost you all credibility right there. Do you think I'm a dissociated drug zombie? Do you think I don't care about anything? The effects are actually the opposite. Depression is the condition in which you don't care about anything.

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Haha, ok. Meanwhile, I'm living the good life drug-free and you're still suffering. I'm fine with that.

Damn dude! You gonna shout at a few homeless people that they should get a job while you're at it?

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Originally Posted by cmind

Haha, ok. Meanwhile, I'm living the good life drug-free and you're still suffering. I'm fine with that.

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I'm cool with you being drug free man, and I don't look at you condescendingly for doing it. Personally I don't think you should be that way towards others just because the drugs didn't help you out any, but you can do what you want, obviously. The drugs actually do benefit some though, no reason to advocate against their use entirely, why not just in specific cases?

I'm on Zoloft and Clonipin for General Anxiety Disorder. Meaning I get severe anxiety for no reason at all. First AD I took was Celexa, that made me really tired, switched to Zoloft which has had no mental effect except I don't need to take my clonipin nearly as much. So, I'm not taking them for depression, but I also can say that for me, there are no side effects other then helping with my anxiety.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Majestic, it sounds like you've never actually had clinical depression. It's nothing like just being really sad.

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Trust me bro they are the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Majestic

Trust me bro they are the same thing.

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I tend to agree with that. In my experience, depression is just sadness that lasts so long that you stop recognizing it as such. Ultimately, the cure for depression is to identify the toxic aspects of your life, be it drugs, situations, or people, and eliminating them.

Sounds like both of you either suffered from mild depression or dysthymia, not major depressive disorder. Something similar to what you just said happens to be right on the wiki page for dysthymia, "[...] Most people with dysthymia can't tell for sure when they first became depressed." The major difference between the two is that dysthymia is a form of mild depression that lasts for years, where as clinical depression (major depressive disorder) is far more severe but more short lived. The dysthymia wiki article mentions anti-depressants used for treatment, but makes no mention of a theorized imbalance in dopamine, serotonin, or norepinephrine. The major depressive disorder page does, however.

If what you two were describing weren't enough evidence for me to speculate that neither of you has experienced clinical depression, the idea that its just a time in your life when you are very sad is a dead give-away. It goes far deeper than that. The one thing I thought both of you would have at least mentioned was hopelessness, if nothing else.

Maybe it was more particular to me when I was depressed, but the magnitude and depth with which the hopelessness ran is like nothing I've experienced, ever. There was never an escape from anything, there was nothing you could do to change it. I believed with my whole heart that I was stuck in whatever situations I was in at the time, for the rest of my life. I would never get better because I was a terrible person who didn't deserve shit. I thought everyone around me hated me, even if they said something or did something nice I would find some way, via mental gymnastics, to convince myself that they hated me. Why would they do something nice for me? They probably just want to use me, I mean that's the only reason anyone ever liked me for my whole life. Why would they ever like me for me? There's nothing to like.

What was worse was I developed anti-social tendencies that isolated me, making my situation worse thus bolstering the idea that I wasn't and never would be shit. Especially the idea that the only reason anyone ever liked me was because they wanted to use me for something. Kindness was such a foreign idea that it immediately caused me to wonder why they did it. "Because they could use me," was the only answer I could ever come up with because that was what I was worth. I was good at doing one or two things and other people wanted to benefit from it. I wasn't just "sad" about something that happened in my life. I had more intense hate for myself than I would ever consider hating other people, and nothing precipitated it at all (ex. driving a car, getting in a car wreck, and as a result your best friend is dead).

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Originally Posted by snoop

Maybe it was more particular to me when I was depressed, but the magnitude and depth with which the hopelessness ran is like nothing I've experienced, ever. There was never an escape from anything, there was nothing you could do to change it. I believed with my whole heart that I was stuck in whatever situations I was in at the time, for the rest of my life. I would never get better because I was a terrible person who didn't deserve shit. I thought everyone around me hated me, even if they said something or did something nice I would find some way, via mental gymnastics, to convince myself that they hated me. Why would they do something nice for me? They probably just want to use me, I mean that's the only reason anyone ever liked me for my whole life. Why would they ever like me for me? There's nothing to like.

What was worse was I developed anti-social tendencies that isolated me, making my situation worse thus bolstering the idea that I wasn't and never would be shit. Especially the idea that the only reason anyone ever liked me was because they wanted to use me for something. Kindness was such a foreign idea that it immediately caused me to wonder why they did it. "Because they could use me," was the only answer I could ever come up with because that was what I was worth. I was good at doing one or two things and other people wanted to benefit from it. I wasn't just "sad" about something that happened in my life. I had more intense hate for myself than I would ever consider hating other people, and nothing precipitated it at all (ex. driving a car, getting in a car wreck, and as a result your best friend is dead).

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Yeah I had all that. I got over it once I stopped the drugs.

Drugs can induce depression themselves if you aren't taking the right dosage. Or if you're talking about recreational drug usage, that can do that too. I hadn't ever used drugs during that time of my life, it was before I ever tried. Mind explaining what I do if I don't have drugs to stop using so I can get my life back together then? See, there's a pretty simple solution if it's drugs that are causing the depression, but if you've got nothing like that going on then it isn't as simple as "I've got to quit using man," and then you're all better.

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Originally Posted by snoop

Drugs can induce depression themselves if you aren't taking the right dosage. Or if you're talking about recreational drug usage, that can do that too. I hadn't ever used drugs during that time of my life, it was before I ever tried. Mind explaining what I do if I don't have drugs to stop using so I can get my life back together then? See, there's a pretty simple solution if it's drugs that are causing the depression, but if you've got nothing like that going on then it isn't as simple as "I've got to quit using man," and then you're all better.

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I have two things to say to that: First, most people are addicted to several drugs, but they don't know it because the addiction is socially accepted. Caffeine addiction. Alcohol addiction. Codeine addiction (Tylenol). Also, a lack of something as simple as regular exercise can have a huge effect on mood.

Second, I know from experience that depression can alter memories in subtle ways. The depressed person might believe that they've always felt this way, even when they haven't. Unless you keep an actual journal or something equally as concrete, you don't really know what your emotional state was a month before you first started the meds, versus a month after. Even the meds themselves can alter memory. This isn't SSRI-specific, but I can tell you that there was about a 4 month period when I was addicted to doctor-prescribed (prescribed dosage) benzos, and that entire 4 month period of my life was basically wiped from memory until about a year later when I finally got those memories back. Now, this is just an anecdote, but it demonstrates that drugs can alter your memory, especially something as ephemeral as remembered emotional states.

So bottom line: I don't believe you when you say you felt like shit when you weren't taking drugs.

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Originally Posted by cmind

Haha, ok. Meanwhile, I'm living the good life drug-free and you're still suffering. I'm fine with that.

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Interesting that you assert I'm still suffering. I've argued with people who are immature and ignorant long before I ever got depressed. Why are you so adamant and argumentative (like a rebellious 14 year old) on this thread if you're not suffering? I'm using the same logic for you.

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Originally Posted by Majestic

You'll be alright Deery.

I don't mean to offend or attack anyone taking meds. I was just stating how their are other ways to treat depression without having to take medication from a doctor.

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Uh huh. I noticed how you edited out that you can't believe people can be so emotionally and mentally weak because they continue to take meds. For the record, I used to be very anti-Big Pharma and tried quitting my medication at least twice. I even tried to ramp off slowly, but the results were not successful. I'm sure that meds don't work for everyone and that it doesn't have to be the only solution, but my mom is able to have and keep a job without undue anxiety, when she hasn't been able to have one in over 20 years, because of her medication. She's not even afraid of traveling and vacations anymore. Her life has clearly improved, and I don't think that calling her weak because she chose this method (the only method that's ever worked for her) is wise. She's been told things like that before, and she's had to fight against that. Still, I'm considering getting off my meds again, and this time I'd ramp off much more slowly and cautiously... I just don't appreciate being insulted. That's not how you win people over to your side, acting like you're smarter and better than everyone else, and they're already losers.

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To answer your question, yea I've been depressed before...deeply, I was suicidal before, I've been in situations that would scare most people on this website. I know what people are depressed are going through. But it passes once you start paying more attention and being awake , rather than having to deal with side effects from medication that is worse than what it's supposed to be curing. It's not like this for everyone, but some people actually die from taking legal medication. This isn't fear mongering..this is just facts.

How many times have you seen television ads about someone dying from a legal medication and to call the number on the screen to sue the company.

Like I said depression ( no matter how deep ) is just an emotional state, and is usually a resistance to your current circumstances.

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Fair enough.

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Exactly, which goes back to me saying you can change your own brain chemistry..no need for a doctor to do it for you. If your depressed, exercise releases endorphins much like an Anti-Depressant pill, breathing exercises, meditation, playing a musical instruments, running. Sometimes It's just as simple as stop being lazy and awake.

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Yep, lazy. More insults and superior posturing.

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Originally Posted by cmind

I have two things to say to that: First, most people are addicted to several drugs, but they don't know it because the addiction is socially accepted. Caffeine addiction. Alcohol addiction. Codeine addiction (Tylenol). Also, a lack of something as simple as regular exercise can have a huge effect on mood.

Second, I know from experience that depression can alter memories in subtle ways. The depressed person might believe that they've always felt this way, even when they haven't. Unless you keep an actual journal or something equally as concrete, you don't really know what your emotional state was a month before you first started the meds, versus a month after. Even the meds themselves can alter memory. This isn't SSRI-specific, but I can tell you that there was about a 4 month period when I was addicted to doctor-prescribed (prescribed dosage) benzos, and that entire 4 month period of my life was basically wiped from memory until about a year later when I finally got those memories back. Now, this is just an anecdote, but it demonstrates that drugs can alter your memory, especially something as ephemeral as remembered emotional states.

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Intelligence Quotient tests, Journals and Psychological analysis records of emotions and feelings before and after medications by a professional licensed Psychologist.

I have all of these things on record and I have absolutely no evidence that the anti-depressants that I was taking made me lose any part of my memory. There is evidence however that they have made a significant improvements to my life in terms of concentration, happiness and emotional stability. :)

By the way: Benzos? Why on earth would you agree to taking that? It seems like doctor is trying to kill you. That drug is seriously dangerous and the adverse effects are ridiculous like you mentioned: amnesia, memory loss, decrease in cognitive function, the list goes on. :|

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Originally Posted by Majestic

That's the whole point I'm trying to make, anything that gives you withdrawals like that isn't good. That's like a doctor prescribing your crack or heroin.

Yea your high is good, but what happens when you miss a dose? If a crack addict suddenly stops smoking, he's going to have some serious problems. Just doesn't seem good to be doped up like that constantly. But it's all good to get high as long as the drug is legal...but people look down upon dope junkies and potheads

I mean Jesus, brain zaps?..from something a doctor gives you. That sounds so painful and excruciating....

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This is the thing. But instead of calling it addictive, they say it is a dependency.

I got those brain zaps too. I've talked about this quite a bit on here when the topic comes up.

They're bloody horrible drugs with common side effects. They actually have been proven to not help depression or anxiety or anything at all. Except there is some indication that it may help for SEVERELY depressed people, as in they can't get out of bed or do anything at all. And even then it only helps a bit.


On the other hand, there are drugs like Ketamine which can cure everything that SSRI's are supposed to, instantly. And you only have to take one dose every couple of months at the most.

But why would they prescribe that? Big Pharma can't make much money off one pill, once a month doses.

I just wish Alex Jones didn't say this about anti-depressants. Because it's actually true but now it looks like bullshit crazy talk.

EDIT:

Wopps, I see there is a couple more pages I missed. And I see some others have already mentioned Ketamine.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Hey, I'm very curious about this - I've heard anti-depressants described as disassociatives (is that right?) - in spite of their obvious terrible effects, do they cause a similar disassociation from reality as psychoactive drugs, meaning could there be some benefit in terms of ego-death from using them?

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You may have heard this from me. It wasn't that they were like a dissociative. But they did make me dissociated.
I assume it is completely different to psychedelics or dissociative drugs like DXM or Ketamine.
I just felt like I was in a dream. That is really the best way to describe it. And it wasn't an immediate effect of the drug.
It just happened occasionally. And many others have reported this. Depersonalisation/Derealisation Disorder is the name for it.

So I wouldn't call them dissociatives. It's probably a side-effect which not everyone gets. I also did not get any long term benefit from
the ego-death feeling, like one would with psychedelics for example. Like I can't recreate that feeling and learned nothing from it except that it felt good and made me very calm lol

I don't think it's the way to live your entire life though. But it would be good for a little while, like if there was a drug that could do that for a few hours.

Thanks for stepping out of the shadows and speaking Tommo!! I gotta google what a dissociative is now.

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Originally Posted by cmind

I have two things to say to that: First, most people are addicted to several drugs, but they don't know it because the addiction is socially accepted. Caffeine addiction. Alcohol addiction. Codeine addiction (Tylenol). Also, a lack of something as simple as regular exercise can have a huge effect on mood.

Second, I know from experience that depression can alter memories in subtle ways. The depressed person might believe that they've always felt this way, even when they haven't. Unless you keep an actual journal or something equally as concrete, you don't really know what your emotional state was a month before you first started the meds, versus a month after. Even the meds themselves can alter memory. This isn't SSRI-specific, but I can tell you that there was about a 4 month period when I was addicted to doctor-prescribed (prescribed dosage) benzos, and that entire 4 month period of my life was basically wiped from memory until about a year later when I finally got those memories back. Now, this is just an anecdote, but it demonstrates that drugs can alter your memory, especially something as ephemeral as remembered emotional states.

So bottom line: I don't believe you when you say you felt like shit when you weren't taking drugs.

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The statement "drugs can alter your memory" is terribly broad. Yes, I'd have to agree with this statement, who wouldn't? Of course some drugs can alter your memory or cause amnesia. Funny, a group of drugs known as benzodiazepines are notorious for such a thing. I'm just going to say right now that, if all you were on were benzos, then it is not fair for you to make a judgment on anti-depressants. That's like comparing apples to oranges. Yes they're both fruit, but they aren't the same thing. It isn't hard to make a comparison when being purposefully broad. Chemicals are chemicals man, chemicals can kill you! Better not breathe, eat, or continue to live or the chemicals will do it for you.

From wiki, "Benzodiazepines enhance the effect of the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), which results in sedative, hypnotic (sleep-inducing), anxiolytic (anti-anxiety), anticonvulsant, muscle relaxant and amnesic action." From wiki on anti-depressants, " Drugs including the monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs), tetracyclic antidepressants (TeCAs), selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), and serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs) are most commonly associated with the term."

These drugs have entirely different modes of action. What makes you think they're all the same? Benzodiazepines work with GABA neurotransmitters, like alcohol. Anti-depressants mainly deal with serotonin, dopamine, and norepinepherine. Some anti-depressants, like Wellbutrin or Stratterra, are used to treat ADHD because it reduces impulsiveness, improves concentration and memory, and stabilizes emotions (ADHD and depression are correlated, to a degree). So tell me, how is a drug that improves concentration going to alter my memory or cause me to lose my memory altogether? One last quote from wiki on the antidepressant page, "Other medications that are not usually called antidepressants, including antipsychotics in low doses[3] and benzodiazepines,[4] may be used to manage depression, although benzodiazepines cause a physical dependence to form. Stopping benzodiazepine treatment abruptly can cause unpleasant withdrawal symptoms." It specifically mentioned benzos as having negative effects and causing physical dependence, but none others because everything right now is speculative. Benzos are known to have terrible effects. Look man, I'm sorry your doctor gave you benzos to treat depression, but you can't act as if benzodiazepines are the type of drug that you talk about when casually using the term "anti-depressant drug." You're making a purely speculative statement that, if action were taken on its behalf, would ruin the quality of life for many and destroy the opportunity for others.

Also, thanks, I appreciate that you know everything about me and my life and that I most likely didn't feel like shit at all. Just so you know, I have never been prescribed anti-depressants to treat depression. I started taking Wellbutrin XL a year and a half after overcoming depression as a medication to take in conjunction with (at the time) Vyvanse to treat ADD. My memory was never altered by a drug while depressed, maybe just by depression. Considering that "drugs can alter your memories", I don't think I believe you when you say you felt like shit on them or even before you started taking them. I mean, you were actually on a drug known for causing anterograde amnesia. Why, if you don't believe me (let's still assume that I was being treated for depression with Wellbutrin, as you seemed to have wrongfully believed was the case) because I was taking a drug that improves concentration, should anyone believe you and your anecdote when you couldn't even remember what happened the entire time you were on them?

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Originally Posted by snoop

It specifically mentioned benzos as having negative effects and causing physical dependence, but none others because everything right now is speculative.

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LOLWUT?

General side effects are mostly present during the first 1–4 weeks while the body adapts to the drug (with the exception of sexual side effects, which tend to occur later in treatment). In fact, it often takes 6–8 weeks for the drug to begin reaching its full potential (the slow onset is considered a downside to treatment with SSRIs). Almost all SSRIs are known to cause one or more of these symptoms:

• anhedonia
• apathy
• nausea/vomiting
• drowsiness or somnolence
• headache
• bruxism
• tinnitus
• extremely vivid or strange dreams (not bad if you know about it, obviously)
  
• dizziness
• fatigue
• mydriasis (pupil dilation)
• urinary retention
• changes in appetite
• insomnia and/or changes in sleep
• weight loss/gain (measured by a change in body weight of 7 pounds)
• increased risk of bone fractures and injuries
• changes in sexual behaviour (see the next section)
• increased feelings of depression and anxiety (which may sometimes provoke panic attacks)
• tremors (and other symptoms of Parkinsonism in vulnerable elderly patients)[18]
• autonomic dysfunction including orthostatic hypotension, increased or reduced sweating
• akathisia
• renal impairment
• suicidal ideation (thoughts of suicide)
• photosensitivity[19]
• Paresthesia
• Syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone hypersecretion

Mania or hypomania is a possible side effect. Users with some type of bipolar disorder are at a much higher risk, however SSRI-induced mania in patients previously diagnosed with unipolar depression can trigger a bipolar diagnosis.

Benzos

The most common side-effects of benzodiazepines are related to their sedating and muscle-relaxing action. - Which I wouldn't call a side-effect, since that's basically what you want lol

They include drowsiness
dizziness
decreased alertness and concentration.

Lack of coordination may result in falls and injuries, in particular, in the elderly.

Another result is impairment of driving skills and increased likelihood of road traffic accidents. - This is just personal opinion (although a logical one) but I don't agree with this.
If someone has anxiety, they're going to be a much worse driver than when they are calm.
As long as the dose isn't too high, and is just enough to take the anxiety away, I think they would be a better driver. The studies on driving ability do not use people who have anxiety.

Decreased libido and erection problems are a common side effect. - Same again, anxiety causes decreased libido and therefore erection problems. Having no anxiety should help.

Depression and disinhibition.
Hypotension and suppressed breathing may be encountered with intravenous use.
Less common side effects include nausea and changes in appetite, blurred vision, confusion, euphoria (not a bad thing, obviously), depersonalization and nightmares. Cases of liver toxicity have been described but are very rare.

Even with the non-bad side-effects and the ones I don't agree with, even if we include them, SSRI's are still clearly more dangerous by far and the side-effects are more common.

I never said they weren't dangerous, I was merely pointing out to cmind that they aren't the same drugs and the effects that he dealt with specifically are well known of benzodiazepines. For instance, I've heard many people refer to klonopin as "forget-a-lot-a-pin." He was claiming that all anti-depressants (or at least that's what he made it sound like) cause memory loss/distortion based off of his experience with benzos. They aren't the same thing. One important thing you left out is withdrawal effects. Benzos have terrible withdraw effects. If you simply abuse enough of it in a night you can be incredibly sick for the next 2 days (personal experience). Obviously anyone using these drugs for therapeutic value wouldn't abuse them like that, but after having it built up in your system for weeks, months, or even years I can only imagine what you would go through.

This is all I could find on SSRI or really any anti-depressant withdrawal:
Antidepressant withdrawal symptoms:
Anxiety, agitation
Depression, mood swings
Flu-like symptoms
Irritability and aggression
Insomnia, nightmares
Nausea and vomiting
Dizziness, loss of coordination
Stomach cramping and pain
Electric shock sensations (brain zap)
Tremor, muscle spasms

Wellbutrin specifically I can attest to taking 300mg (I will admit that this was terrible, the reason why I switched back to 150mg, made life hell) and then just stopping altogether after 3 months. I had no withdrawal symptoms for about a week, and with most people suddenly stopping a Wellbutrin regimen they feel out of energy and lethargic (other withdrawal effects have been reported but aren't near as common), but I guess since I've got ADD or for whatever reason, I was bouncing off the walls. A lot of people at school commented that it looked like I had a lot of pent-up energy. After another day of that but less intense, I was completely back to normal.

What I found on benzodiazepine withrawal:
Benzodiazepine withdrawal is similar to alcohol withdrawal syndrome and barbiturate withdrawal syndrome[1] and can in severe cases provoke life threatening withdrawal symptoms such as seizures.[2] Severe and life threatening symptoms are mostly limited to abrupt or over-rapid dosage reduction from high doses.[3] A protracted withdrawal syndrome may develop in a proportion of individuals with symptoms such as anxiety, irritability, insomnia and sensory disturbances. In a small number of people it can be severe and resemble serious psychiatric and medical conditions such as schizophrenia and seizure disorders.[4] A serious side effect of benzodiazepine withdrawal is suicide.[5]

The following symptoms may emerge during gradual dosage reduction [of Benzodiazpeines] but can usually be reduced in intensity or eliminated altogether by reducing the rate of reduction:
Anxiety, possible terror and panic attacks[17][36]
Agitation and restlessness[17]
Hypochondriasis[17]
Dilated pupils[4]
Impaired concentration[36]
Nightmares[37]
Insomnia[37]
Muscular spasms, cramps or fasciculations[38]
Electric shock sensations[3][39]
Blurred vision[17]
Dizziness[17]
Dry mouth[17]
Aches and pains[17]
Hearing impairment[17]
Taste and smell disturbances[17]
Chest pain[17]
Flu like symptoms[17]
Impaired memory and concentration[17]
Increased sensitivity to touch[40]
Increased sensitivity to sound[17]
Sounds louder than usual[40]
Objects moving[40]
Increased urinary frequency[17]
Numbness and tingling[17]
Hot and cold flushes[17]
Headache[36]
Rebound REM sleep[41]
Stiffness[17]
Fatigue and weakness[17]
Hyperosmia[42]
Restless legs syndrome[11]
Metallic taste[42]
Photophobia[42]
Paranoia[42]
Hypnagogia-hallucinations[6]
Nausea and vomiting[37]
Elevation in blood pressure[43]
Tachycardia[44]
Hypertension[45]
Postural hypotension[37]
Depression (can be severe),[46] possible suicidal ideation
Tremor[47][48]
Perspiration[36]
Loss of appetite and weight loss[49]
Dysphoria[50][51]
Depersonalization[52][53]
Derealisation (Feelings of unreality)[40]
Obsessive compulsive disorder[54][55]
Tinnitus[56]
Paraesthesia[40][42][53]
Visual disturbances[53]
Mood swings[17]
Indecision[17]
Gastrointestinal problems (Irritable bowel syndrome)[57][58][59]

An abrupt or over-rapid discontinuation of benzodiazepines may result in a more serious and very unpleasant withdrawal syndrome that may additionally result in:
Convulsions, which may result in death[60][61]
Catatonia, which may result in death[62][63][64]
Coma[65] (rare)
Suicide[5][66][67]
Attempted suicide[53]
Suicidal ideation[68]
Self harm[53]
Hyperthermia[37]
Delusions[69]
Homicide ideations[70]
Urges to shout, throw, break things or to harm someone[17]
Violence[71]
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder[11]
Organic brain syndrome[72]
Psychosis[73][74]
Confusion[35]
Mania[75][76]
Neuroleptic malignant syndrome like event[77][78] (rare)
Delirium tremens[79][80][81

Yeah, totally sounds like benzodizepines are the safer drug to take to me!

I guess this was lost on snoop, but my benzo experience was merely an example to prove the point. In fact, SSRIs have caused memory distortions, not amnesia, but certainly massive distortions in the emotions attached to memories. This is something that you will experience soon enough.

Also, you are only talking about abusing them snoop.
Barely any of those you listed occur if you take benzo's correctly.
And if you withdraw slowly, very slowly, you will not experience many of the side-effects, if any.

You can't list withdrawal side effects as showing the drug to be harmful, if the withdrawal side effects are only from abrupt titration of dosages.

tommo, for the record, I think that both SSRIs and benzos are extremely bad drugs to be taking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tommo

LOLWUT?

General side effects are mostly present during the first 1–4 weeks while the body adapts to the drug (with the exception of sexual side effects, which tend to occur later in treatment). In fact, it often takes 6–8 weeks for the drug to begin reaching its full potential (the slow onset is considered a downside to treatment with SSRIs). Almost all SSRIs are known to cause one or more of these symptoms:

• anhedonia
• apathy
• nausea/vomiting
• drowsiness or somnolence
• headache
• bruxism
• tinnitus
• extremely vivid or strange dreams
• dizziness
• fatigue
• mydriasis (pupil dilation)
• urinary retention
• changes in appetite
• insomnia and/or changes in sleep
• weight loss/gain (measured by a change in body weight of 7 pounds)
• increased risk of bone fractures and injuries
• changes in sexual behaviour (see the next section)
• tremors (and other symptoms of Parkinsonism in vulnerable elderly patients)[18]
• autonomic dysfunction including orthostatic hypotension, increased or reduced sweating
• akathisia
• renal impairment
• suicidal ideation (thoughts of suicide)
• photosensitivity[19]
• Paresthesia
• Syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone hypersecretion

Mania or hypomania is a possible side effect. Users with some type of bipolar disorder are at a much higher risk, however SSRI-induced mania in patients previously diagnosed with unipolar depression can trigger a bipolar diagnosis.

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Best side effect ever.

Sorry couldn't help myself. :cheeky:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmind

tommo, for the record, I think that both SSRIs and benzos are extremely bad drugs to be taking.

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I gathered that.

I think benzos really are okay as long as you don't abuse them. Many people seem to.
I took them for a year or 2 every day and never went over a 1mg dose.

Some people I know who took them recreationally took 12mg a night or more.

I was baffled as to how someone could do that and not think they would fuck themselves over. They obviously had absolutely no idea of the threshold dose. And obviously ended up not remembering a single thing from the night.

I have a friend on benzos, he says they send him into incredible mood swings where he feels suicidal dread if he misses a dose. Does not sound fun.

Ideation of strange thoughts such as suicide are more common than you think with patients trying to get off anti-depressants. However, an interesting thing happens where people become more likely in general to act out impulses they normally would have nothing to do with. For instance one guy who stopped taking his meds kidnapped and sexually assaulted a 3 year old girl before killing her and eating her body. He was probably already fucked up yes, but it could be argued his weird innate desires would not have manifested so severely and without restraint unless he had been on the anti-depressants. I believe the drug was prozac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I have a friend on benzos, he says they send him into incredible mood swings where he feels suicidal dread if he misses a dose. Does not sound fun.

Ideation of strange thoughts such as suicide are more common than you think with patients trying to get off anti-depressants. However, an interesting thing happens where people become more likely in general to act out impulses they normally would have nothing to do with. For instance one guy who stopped taking his meds kidnapped and sexually assaulted a 3 year old girl before killing her and eating her body. He was probably already fucked up yes, but it could be argued his weird innate desires would not have manifested so severely and without restraint unless he had been on the anti-depressants. I believe the drug was prozac.

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"It could be argued"? More like, it's a fucking certainty. Also, all of the school and college shootings in the US over the past 20 years were committed by SSRI users. Every single one.

Except the ones that weren't. But I guess when two things show a slight link that's all you need to filter it into your preconceived notions. Nevermind that the factor tying kids to both meds and shootings may be the same, rather than one causing the other.

but you know, that's just "science"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Ideation of strange thoughts such as suicide are more common than you think with patients trying to get off anti-depressants. However, an interesting thing happens where people become more likely in general to act out impulses they normally would have nothing to do with. For instance one guy who stopped taking his meds kidnapped and sexually assaulted a 3 year old girl before killing her and eating her body. He was probably already fucked up yes, but it could be argued his weird innate desires would not have manifested so severely and without restraint unless he had been on the anti-depressants. I believe the drug was prozac.

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I've read about this. I believe the explanation for this is that anti-depressants generally start combating the apathy often caused by depression before it actually brings about an improvement in the mood. It basically enables you to get off your arse and do something, and some people then make bad choices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by khh

I've read about this. I believe the explanation for this is that anti-depressants generally start combating the apathy often caused by depression before it actually brings about an improvement in the mood. It basically enables you to get off your arse and do something, and some people then make bad choices.

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Right, and SSRIs should not go to people who have ideation like this. Proper therapeutic assessment is key. Any kind of creepy ideation you can find is a sign the person may not be fit for SSRIs. I wouldn't take them, I get all sorts of crazy thoughts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

Right, and SSRIs should not go to people who have ideation like this. Proper therapeutic assessment is key. Any kind of creepy ideation you can find is a sign the person may not be fit for SSRIs. I wouldn't take them, I get all sorts of crazy thoughts.

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Yeah. I would, tough. In fact, I am considering getting a prescription :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmind

"It could be argued"? More like, it's a fucking certainty. Also, all of the school and college shootings in the US over the past 20 years were committed by SSRI users. Every single one.

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Really and really? What is certain, is that every school and college shootout were committed by at least someone with a gun. This, however, doesn't mean that every gun-user that committed the act became a murderer because of the gun.

I was on xanz for over 4 years. Every day, 4mg.
The reason why is because I burnt my know how up with LSD, and I'm not an advocate for these medications, but sometimes the "hippie" approach doesn't have enough manpower to get the job done.

I mean, you gotta do whatcha gotta do to keep yourself from blowing your head off, or worse yet: Becoming a Democrat. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

I was on xanz for over 4 years. Every day, 4mg.
The reason why is because I burnt my know how up with LSD, and I'm not an advocate for these medications, but sometimes the "hippie" approach doesn't have enough manpower to get the job done.

I mean, you gotta do whatcha gotta do to keep yourself from blowing your head off, or worse yet: Becoming a Democrat. :P

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I would say if one takes the hippy approach, do not take the drugs and forget the tradition. You cannot win this battle by extracting what you like from an approach and ignoring the rest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilthugdollaz

Really and really? What is certain, is that every school and college shootout were committed by at least someone with a gun. This, however, doesn't mean that every gun-user that committed the act became a murderer because of the gun.

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Do guns change brain chemistry and cause depersonalization? Cuz SSRIs do...

Do you have a source for the SSRI users and school shootings?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tommo

Do you have a source for the SSRI users and school shootings?

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Agreed. Source; and then we will value your opinion and information.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmind

Do guns change brain chemistry and cause depersonalization? Cuz SSRIs do...

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You're acting like everyone is born with the impulse to kill people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

You're acting like everyone is born with the impulse to kill people.

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We all contain a lower animal brain within our larger brain, so yes. If the right chemical signals are present, that can suppress the civilized behaviours and allow the violent impulses to come out. Remember, humans are mammals, and every other mammal species is incredibly violent compared to humans. The difference is we have a frontal cortex large enough to override those violent instincts. What happens if drugs like SSRIs reduce the activation of the frontal cortex?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmind

We all contain a lower animal brain within our larger brain, so yes. If the right chemical signals are present, that can suppress the civilized behaviours and allow the violent impulses to come out. Remember, humans are mammals, and every other mammal species is incredibly violent compared to humans. The difference is we have a frontal cortex large enough to override those violent instincts. What happens if drugs like SSRIs reduce the activation of the frontal cortex?

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There we have it. You should not be on SSRIs. Good to know for you. Use this knowledge for yourself. Don't be a fundamentalist. Different strokes, man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cmind

We all contain a lower animal brain within our larger brain, so yes. If the right chemical signals are present, that can suppress the civilized behaviours and allow the violent impulses to come out.

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This is true, the prefrontal cortex is involved in decision making, differentiating between good and bad/right and wrong and basically regulates social behavior. Damage to the prefrontal cortex has been shown to decrease socially acceptable behavior as well as prompting amoral behavior.

Personally I agree with the saying different strokes, different folks in this situation. I took wellbutrin for a couple months when I was 14 (my parents found out I smoked pot on the regular and thought I was depressed, which I was but who the fuck wasn't depressed when they were 14?) it didn't help me like meditation and well, weed did so I stopped taking it and have never felt better but Ive also met some people who cant even function without antidepressants so it depends on the circumstance. Regarding the ethics of prescribing teenagers antidepressants, I guess that's a whole different topic.