Are Holy Wars Justifiable?

If a "God" existed, would Holy Wars (wars declared or waged in support of a religious cause) disgust him, or would he smile in approval? I suppose this may depend upon which God you believe in. I know with certainty that most Eastern religions would never teach nor condone a Holy War of any sort. This does not mean they have never known war, because the east has known many, but none of these wars to my knowledge were centered around religious beliefs. I think this is a bit different when it comes to Christianity or the Muslim faiths.

I must say that I found some evidence of the Quran promoting violence. These scriptures are not that vague, as to be completely misunderstood, in fact they are rather to the point.

”Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” Quran 4:74

“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” Quran 8:12

”If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.”Quran 8:57

“O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.” Quran 9:123

By its definition, "war" cannot be "Holy" so aren't "Holy Wars" just a huge contradiction? Any thoughts on this?

Well if there is a "perfect" God and he asked you to go to war then he would have to have a good reason for it and therefore the war would be justifiable.

If death is really only a way to get closer to "God", then there's no moral ambiguity at all in killing. So I would go as far as to say that holy wars are justifiable even for imperfect gods.

The Nazis destroyed Europe because they were told to by an omnipotent icon, too. Doesn't make it any less abhorrent. Not being able to work out a moral code for yourself (requiring authority to tell you what's right), or acting morally just out of fear of punishment and lust after a reward, are both immoral behaviours.

I'm going with that holy wars are a contradiction, complete opposite, because in any religion I can name they have a strict rule against killing.

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Originally Posted by mooseantlers

I'm going with that holy wars are a contradiction, complete opposite, because in any religion I can name they have a strict rule against killing.

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All killing, or just unsanctioned killing?

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Originally Posted by mooseantlers

I'm going with that holy wars are a contradiction, complete opposite, because in any religion I can name they have a strict rule against killing.

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Interesting how many religious texts also have rules permitting or even condoning killing.

Fun fact for the day: if P and not P are true, you can deduce any proposition whatsoever. So the Bible proves that Santa Claus is real. It also implies that Jesus' favourite food was strawberry jelly.

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Originally Posted by cmind

All killing, or just unsanctioned killing?

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In Christianity, the Ten Commandments forbade killing of any kind. I think this goes for most religions.

Thou shalt not kill... Unless they're pagan.

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Originally Posted by ThePieMan

In Christianity, the Ten Commandments forbade killing of any kind. I think this goes for most religions.

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No

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Multiple translations exist of the fifth/sixth commandment; the Hebrew words לא תרצח (lo tirtzach) are variously translated as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder".[57]

The imperative is against unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt.[58] The Hebrew Bible contains numerous prohibitions against unlawful killing, but also allows for justified killing in the context of warfare (1Kings 2:5–6), capital punishment (Leviticus 20:9–16) and self-defence (Exodus 22:2–3). The New Testament is in agreement that murder is a grave moral evil,[59] and maintains the Old Testament view of bloodguilt.[60]

Jewish translations almost all use "murder" – an exception is the Artscroll or Stone Edition tanach (1996).

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Source

Killing enemies is allowed. What are enemies> Anyone who doesn't believe in the same God or has different views of him.

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Well if there is a "perfect" God and he asked you to go to war then he would have to have a good reason for it and therefore the war would be justifiable.

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Wouldn't this hinge on first determining undeniably that your God is "perfect" and that your understanding of his word is correct?

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Originally Posted by ThePieMan

If a "God" existed..

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If?

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Originally Posted by lilthugdollaz

If? GOD DOES exist

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http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo...44ulo1_500.jpg

Dat means electrons don't exist? GOD DOES EXist!!! The bible says so.

Yea, the bible fucking says he does. You gotta problem with that?

This should be in R/S.

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Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Yea, the bible fucking says he does. You gotta problem with that?

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i love how the religious dude liked you post

The only holy war that I can think of that could actually be a holy war is the one that takes place in your head!

This is really one of those perspective questions. If there is a God, and he tells you its ok to commit wars on people outside of your faith, you would probably find that justifiable, especially if we are talking about a "perfect god". Now, if said god is not perfect, like say the greek gods, then no holy war would not be justifiable because there would be some way to out reason it. How said god proves he is perfect is...well again up to debate since we dont really know what a perfect god (or human) is do we?

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Originally Posted by lilthugdollaz

dat means electrons don't exist? God does exist!!! The bible says so.

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explain why everyone should believe what some book you read said?

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Originally Posted by DreamVail

explain why everyone should believe what some book you read said?

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D:

why are you banned!?!?!??!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?!?

This is my way of thinking of it; I'm quite certain that if there is a God, he is not perfect. He's not even a god in the traditional sense of the word. If God exists, then he is just another Alien, except a many-multi-demnsional one who, because of his many dimensions, can do things we think impossible. Because this God is so much more powerful than us, we have over time come to equate his power with perfection, probably because most humans are naturally power hungry. So in this case, weather Holy war is not justifiable/ justifiable has nothing to do with God . Why would it? He's just a giant Alien! Who is he to tell us what to do? Even if this giant several-dimensional alien had a hand in our creation, does that mean we are subservient to it forever?

If we assume that what I just said was true, then the question really becomes is killing okay? IMO, if you find Religion worth killing for, then yeah, sure do it. But those who don't find it worth killing for have just as much right to try and stop you. I don't really believe that humans have intrinsic value. The only reason I see my father as valuable is because I love him. Those who do not, may not feel the same way and to them he will mean almost nothing. If not for the moral code preached to everyone by our society, he *would* mean nothing at all. So, in that case, if you care nothing about the feelings and pain of others, there is nothing technically wrong with killing my dad. I on the other hand, know what it is like to suffer, and would not willingly inflict that on another person, even if I believe that they, by themselves, as singular entities, don't have any real value.

Basically, the point I'm trying to get across here, is that there is no real "Yes" or real "No". It is up for each person to decide.

Edit: I just realized how badly worded this is, it flowed much better in my head... :P

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Originally Posted by DreamVail

explain why everyone should believe what some book you read said?

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Perhaps, because some book I read made sense with strongly supported claims?

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Originally Posted by Solarflare

i love how the religious dude liked you post

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The religious dude? Would that be me? Did you think that I may have been lying, before claiming me to be the religious dude, which, requires that I worship a deity than rather acknowledge one? I wonder, if other people told you about the falsity of the bible, than you finding out yourself - seeing how lies can easily pass you.

Jesus Christ, what the hell does God have to do with a justified Holy War?
ALL war is justified, it's called survival of the fittest. The majority of people view war on an individual level; how it effects them specifically, but if they would take a step back and view it through the eyes of God, they would see it's nothing but the tool we've used to adapt. There's absolutely no need to attribute anything to god, good or bad.....lol.

I think God would be laughing or crying for our sake. Maybe both.

I also have heard the things Darkmatters posted, my ex had a long family tradition of evangelic church, thus many of her family members are religious. Her aunt is actually a theologist and I heard she talking the same thing as she knows hebrew. However, since the Bible got translated and translated.. and translated it is natural that the original message is lost or twisted.

I find the idea too odd to understand. It is just killing in the name of authority, sugar covered with word righteous. I think that the finest example of the point presents the show Supernatural, if you have watched. As the protagonists question why angels are able to carry out such horrid orders they answer that it is just and righteous. When they are asked why, they simply say : "because it comes from heaven."

Also there is no war in our time that doesn't involve innocents. The general soldiers are same in the both sides : they want to live and they don't want to kill. They just follow orders.

But now as we are at it, war deities have existed in the ancient world and highly reverred. Their portofolios included glory, massacre, rage, honor, blood and such. They were worshiped by soldiers of that age. But nowadays, as the number of "important" deities has gotten quite small, none of them is that specialized.

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

Jesus Christ, what the hell does God have to do with a justified Holy War?
ALL war is justified, it's called survival of the fittest. The majority of people view war on an individual level; how it effects them specifically, but if they would take a step back and view it through the eyes of God, they would see it's nothing but the tool we've used to adapt. There's absolutely no need to attribute anything to god, good or bad.....lol.

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I like the point you're making, even if holy wars are disguised as a battle between spiritual good and evil, they're really a lot more practical. They're about preserving traditions. The Islamist Extremists feel the enticing west is corroding their society, and if their society has any value to it, it will defend itself.

It's important to remember something though, there's a big difference between who's truly fit and who can win a war. Are the Chinese fit to run a society? They're fucking shit up big time in that country, most of us can agree. But for right now it's effective, and it was certainly effective for the purpose of invading Tibet.

Now look at Tibet, it was completely incapable of defending itself against the Chinese with their military but the traditions of Tibet have incredible value when it comes to improving the richness and enjoyment of people's lives.

No. They are not. Most, if not all, major religious texts have anti-killing policies. People interpret them stupidly... sometimes forgetting that translation can be misconstrued.

Example: Camel passing through eye of needle may be translated incorrectly. The old Hebrew words for camel and frayed thread are the same. So it could easily be frayed thread passing through the eye of a needle. Which makes more sense contextually and overall.

every single text from any holy book about fighting and war are out of context and only idiots who read said books at face value take them literally and should be sterilized before they reproduce. That includes atheists who think that just because they dont believe in God and say the bible is "stupid" makes them smarter and more likable people. Those holy books have more wisdom in them than any of us could learn and achieve in a lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Suicideking

Those holy books have more wisdom in them than any of us could learn and achieve in a lifetime.

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You can find anything there, if you are willing to bend it around enough. A bit same with Notradamus.

They have some good moral tales though. I would not call that wisdom. Wisdom is something you cannot write down. But they certainly can awaken and nudge people into path to wisdom, if the person is suitable. But I have noticed that living a real life usually does that a lot better and way faster, if rougher.

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Originally Posted by Unelias

You can find anything there, if you are willing to bend it around enough. A bit same with Notradamus.

They have some good moral tales though. I would not call that wisdom. Wisdom is something you cannot write down. But they certainly can awaken and nudge people into path to wisdom, if the person is suitable. But I have noticed that living a real life usually does that a lot better and way faster, if rougher.

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When I mean wisdom i mean truths about life and society in general. For example, the creation "myths" (they were never supposed to be taken literally, you can research that if you want) stress that even in the best environment and under the best care in the world, humans will never achieve an utopian society due to the very nature of human beings. Ego and the love of power will always best society

And the answer to the thread that I have is, holy wars are not justifiable. Most wars are not justifiable, a few are... tolerable due to necessity.

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Originally Posted by Suicideking

When I mean wisdom i mean truths about life and society in general. For example, the creation "myths" (they were never supposed to be taken literally, you can research that if you want) stress that even in the best environment and under the best care in the world, humans will never achieve an utopian society due to the very nature of human beings. Ego and the love of power will always best society

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True, that is how I see it too. They are often very good lines, when you inspect them in symbolic sense. That is the problem with words and languages, though. Even if not taken literally, words have different meanings to people. This leads to the situation we are in at the moment.

We're looking at this from our perspective, and it's very narrow. You have to consider time and consider the world. You may not like the road our ancestors took to get here but they took it and we got here. Evolution is evolution, yes they were ignorant fucks and we can look back and say "damn you ignorant fucks we would never do something so stupid." But that's about it, they did what they thought was best.

It's only a contradiction against God if you're trying to find the real meaning of God. Leave that to the Church, the state needs to preserve itself, the state needs to spread its power and bring in wealth. The state is going to use religion in whatever way it damn well pleases and just because you have a law separating the two doesn't mean people are no longer influenced by their religious convictions. You say holy wars don't meet up to the standard religions set, I'm saying you're over-estimating the standards religions really set. Men truly interested in salvation don't cling to religion, that's for the weak that want to feel like they're apart of something. Men truly interested in salvation don't discriminate between cultures to find truth.