Thread: Wisdom among older people

Age is just potential time. You can waste it or you can use it well.

That said, you can live 60 years and still know nothing. You can live 30 years and experience broad set of things and learn more than most people could in their lifetime.

Okay.. I'se gonna take da bait..

Originally Posted by Dianeva

It is often assumed by everyone that people who are older, above the age of 60 or so, possess more wisdom than younger people.

No it ain’t, in my experience.. most people look down patronisingly and condescendingly upon what dey poyceive as “da old”.. da media stereotype of “da old” is da crumbling senile wreck, who one gots tuh humour.. etc etc.

Originally Posted by Dianeva

I'd like to suggest that in some cases, perhaps in a substantial number, the wisdom of older people is exaggerated.<SNIP>Even an unwise old person who hasn't thought much about his or her life will likely claim to be wise, and be treated as wise.

I suspect the reason for the exaggeration is..

It’s ego..

..but it ain’t just “old” people who use hypoybole for da expediency of self-aggrandisement..

You read dis forum? You read da papers? You ever seen “Da Apprentice”? It’s all over da place here, dare and everywhere: people (mostly young) who hype up dare own poyssonal skills and strengths. “Everybody” does it.. it’s a human trait.

It starts when youse about 4-5 years old.. grows and grows as youse gets older, reaches its peak sometime between puberty and early 20s.. and eider stays at dat peak for da rest of your life, or diminishes bit-by-bit, if you get “wiser”..

I’ve interviewed a lotta people.. and everyone wuz da same: grossly exaggerating dey own poyssonal schtick..

I use tuh shoot ‘em down wid dis question:

“Okay.. so wadda your weaknesses, den?”

I can’t ever remember geddin’ an honest answer to dis: da most popular reply by far wuz:

“Oh.. I don’t gots nun..”

Upon being pressed, da most frequent reply den wuz:

“Oh.. ummm.. ummm.. I’se a poyfectionist.”

You see what dey wuz tryin’ to do with dat answer?

So.. when I read your OP about “wise people” I taught to myself “write down da foist ones what comes into your head.”

So I did:

George Burns; Henny Youngman; Celia Green; Maya Angelou; Bonnie Greer.

Den I tried to tink of some younger people.. and you know what?

Ah’m still tinkin’..

..but I’se only toyteen.. so wadda hell duz I know?


We still on fer tonite?

Youse bring da piece..

What did I just read? O.o

Why do you write like that? Surely it is not about that you don't know how to write properly? It is just... it makes my eyes hurt and gives a very bad image of you.

Anyway, in cultural and social history it is traditional than when people start to use their physical abilities they move to spirtual advisors. They have seen life, they have seen the wars, they know what plant not to eat, unless you want to die a horrible death etc. In modern times that is not respected anymore. The youth couldn't care less about veterans who have been in wars or elders who tell how tar burning was important back then. Societies see elderly just a burden that has to be taken care of untill they die.

But as I said before, there are old people who have accumulated wisdom and it is always worth listening to that. Of course, young people have curious habit of not listening or taking heed. It is not about living life as they say, it is just those subtle clues they give, which you will most likely understand at some point of your life.

I honestly don't know why we keep people over 30.

^

I've known old people who are wise and old people who act like children and seem to have learned nothing from life.

Let me also say that it's hard to judge what you haven't been yet. I've been young and I've been - well - middle-aged. And I definitely have wisdom now that I would have only laughed at then. The problem is that when you try to share experience (wisdom, life lessons, whatever you want to call it) with people who have yet to experience the same situation they don't understand it and tend to wave it off and even become condescending and mocking - the young believe they're invulnerable and that the old are foolish and ridiculous and have nothing of value to share.

There's a saying - I can't remember the wording or who said it and it didn't turn up in my quick google, but it's along these lines: The problem with wisdom is it can't be shared, it can only be gained through experience.

However I think the life experience we each gain along the way is largely personal - it's about each f us learning the lessons we needed, and might not apply as well to others. We all start out with our own set of issues and our life consists of trying to avoid them or learning to deal with them - so we all end up with specific types of wisdom.

And let me close with one question.. Are you more wise now than you were at 6?

Addendum - also, if you're talking about people over 60 or 70 - senility can rob them of much wisdom (some people don't experience it until much later) and you also have to consider that they might have lost touch with what it's like to be young - in which case I think they wouldn't be able to say much helpful to the young.

I don't think it's fair to judge anyone as unwise. I feel wiser than I did 5 minutes ago but I still get reminded of things that I forget from 6 year olds.

So then you don't think it's fair to judge anyone as wise either?

I know people talk about "wisdom from the mouths of babes" etc, but is it really wisdom? It' more innocence plus the fact that they haven't been socialized to "conventional wisdom" yet. A child can say some pretty smart things, but it's lost in a sea of ignorance. That's not an insult - ignorance simply means that you don't know much yet.

The difference is that when children say smart things, often they don't know it's smart. It doesn't come from life experience. When we talk about the wisdom of the elderly we're talking specifically about life experience. I think what you're talking about is more innocence/spirituality.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

So then you don't think it's fair to judge anyone as wise either?

I know people talk about "wisdom from the mouths of babes" etc, but is it really wisdom? It' more innocence plus the fact that they haven't been socialized to "conventional wisdom" yet. A child can say some pretty smart things, but it's lost in a sea of ignorance. That's not an insult - ignorance simply means that you don't know much yet.

The difference is that when children say smart things, often they don't know it's smart. It doesn't come from life experience. When we talk about the wisdom of the elderly we're talking specifically about life experience. I think what you're talking about is more innocence/spirituality.

I'm talking about getting so wound up in a mode of thinking you stop seeing the forest for the trees. Wisdom is a word with a loose definition at best, though I would relate it to experience I think in each stage of life we're undergoing different experiences and have a unique vantage point from that condition. We may acquire more experience as we age, but we also forget what it's like to be someone with less experience and in doing so we lose some wisdom.

Damn you and your Everything viewpoint Omnis Dei!

Always making us expand our thinking.

I wish I could just disregard the things you say... life would be so much simpler then!

ya cheeky bastard..

You just want that Xbox

I thought about this subject a while ago. I was wondering why older people are always seen as being more wise than younger people, and I hold the same view as the saying Darkmatters quoted. We only gain wisdom through experience. Any ideas or insights passed on to us by others is not wisdom, it's knowledge. And knowledge is not equal to wisdom, for knowledge is given, whereas wisdom is gained. I believe this is the view most people hold, and that is why the old are seen as wise. Old people are more likely to have gained a great degree of wisdom in their long lives than any young person could in the short time they've been alive.

The problem though is that people tend to generalize. And that's what got me thinking about it in the first place. Most people seem to have the idea that young people are simple creatures, who live in the here and now, and can't seem to grasp the bigger picture. They rush through life, looking for quick thrills, and never stop to think about the important things. Whereas old people are seen as wise old sages, who have seen it all and done it all. They can tell you things about life that you never could have realised with your wild, untamed mind. This view obviously doesn't take individual lifestyle or mindset into account. If a young man has travelled the world, learned many languages, spoken with thousands of amazing new people, experienced dozens of exciting cultures, and witnessed some of the most beautiful and wondrous spectacles the world has to offer, can he really be said to have less experience than the average pensioner?

My grandmother is in her seventies. She's lived through many things, from the terror of the Second World War to the confusing and fast paced modern age. She's lived through the rapidly changing decades of the twentieth century and witnessed the world go through great change throughout her lifetime. You could say that she has been through much in her life and that everything she has experienced, in her personal life and as part of the wider world, has made her very wise. And I would agree with you. But can she really be said to be more wise than the young man? After all, she's never been to another country. She's never experienced another culture or learned another language. She's led a life not so different from the average person. So is she more experienced than the young man? It's difficult to compare.

I think people need to stop generalizing and start judging the individual based on their personal experiences, not their age. Sorry for the long post.

You just want that Xbox

Damn - saw right through me!

I think people need to stop generalizing and start judging the individual based on their personal experiences, not their age. Sorry for the long post.

I agree. Life experience is what's important - not age. And you SHOULD be sorry.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

And you SHOULD be sorry.

The advantage in perspective that some older people supposedly have comes from the fact that older people have already been young and younger peole have not yet been old.

Ok this is another topic that I can't stop thinking about. I apologize in advance. And sorry HS, too busy typing to come at you right now..

Not only what Roswell said, but a couple of other factors I thought of..


The brain isn't finished growing until we're somewhere between the late teens and mid to even possibly late twenties. I might need to look up confirmation on that - it's not commonly known. But it's the reason the skull plates don't fuze until childhood is over (not sure what age that happens at?) - because the skull needs to be able to accommodate as the brain grows. And until the brain's growth is finished we're not capable of full cognition. This pisses a lot of teenagers off I know.

But it's part of the reason we experience such a quantum leap of maturity around the early to mid 20's

There are other stages when we experience such a leap of maturity - the change to to adolescence, to adulthood, and again when we hit middle age. I'm not sure (and can't say from experience yet) if there's another such shift when we move into elderliness. (I say it's a word!)

Another important factor is hormones.

They're raging all through adolescence and early adulthood.And while they may not bear directly on 'wisdom' they create the effect of a powerful storm through which we have to struggle.

I'm not saying any of this is conclusive - I'm just saying these are definitely important factors that need to be considered. Also we'd need to more clearly define just what we mean by Wisdom. It's a pretty vague term.

For me, the greatest wisdom has come through raising children. Having children forces you to think of someone other than just yourself. You don't have to have children to achieve this, but having them forces the issue.

Exactly!!! I was just going to say this:

People who have been married and divorced several times and raised children have experienced things that make them wise in ways others can't know until they've done the same.

This also goes for other experiences that older people have been through the young people generally haven't - for instance a person who's been an employee and a manager and then an owner of a company has a depth and breadth of understanding about the whole process that someone who's only been a low-level employee can't have. Being responsible for others really tests and develops you as a person.

Also here's a very interesting page I found while searching for info on brain growth and cognitive development: Cognitive Functioning in Early Adulthood

cognitive growth
changes in thinking, typically described as being increasingly efficient, creative, or complex; in adulthood, growth may be promoted by major life events (such as entry into a new career or the birth of a child) or by brain growth (such as the development of the frontal lobe) or, perhaps, by interaction of nature and nurture

Two different types of intelligence - one that gets better in later life and one that decreases with age:

crystallized intelligence
verbal reasoning that holds across the lifespan; reflects accumulated knowledge and vocabulary; allows best works at age of 40s, 50s, and older by historians, philosophers, prose writers

fluid intelligence
fast and abstract reasoning; in adults, there is a decline with age; includes nonverbal abilities, nonverbal puzzle solving, novel logic problems; allows best works at age of 20s and 30s by mathematicians, scientists, and poets

I am also finding my self supporting crystallized vs fluid intelligence form. When you have lived long enough you usually have so many tested options for every situation. Although, the wisest people in my opinion never lose their fluid intelligence. Fluidness and flexible approach backed up by confidence by experience is key to good choices.

I'm also thinking it's important at what age you have certain experiences.

Example - the death of a close relative or loved one will affect a child traumatically whereas it will affect an adult (assuming the adult is mature enough) in a different way.

In the same way a teenager who's been married and divorced might not learn much wisdom from it because the cognitive development level or maturity level might not allow it, whereas an older person might develop some wisdom from it.

These are generalities of course. Many adults are not very mature and will fail to develop wisdom no matter what they experience, and many people develop maturity at a surprisingly early age (I suspect that's true for a lot of people on this site).

Ah! Here's what I was looking for -

frontal lobes
portions of the cerebral cortex of the brain; located behind the forehead; center for judgment, planning; also concerned with speaking and moving muscles

final development of the frontal lobes occurs in the 20s

This was sort of briefly covered in a quote above, but here it is explicitly and in no uncertain terms.

From this page again: http://www.marybold.com/CogFunc.htm#frontal%20lobes


This is also very interesting:

Roger Gould, psychologist; in 1975 and 1978, published stages of adult personality (outlined below); his work also considers how people perceive time at different stages; more recent work has been in computer-based brief psychotherapy

Stages of Adult Personality

Age 16 - 22: Leaving my parents’ world. Answers the childhood assumption that “I’ll always live with my parents.”

Age 22 - 28: I’m nobody’s baby, now. Answers the false assumption that “doing things my parents’ way, with willpower and perseverance, will bring results.”

Age 28 - 34: Opening up to what’s inside. Answers the false assumption that “life is simple and controllable; I have no contradictory forces within me.”

Age 34 - 45: Midlife decade. Answers the false assumption that there is no death, no evil.

Age 45 and older: Beyond mid-life. No false assumptions to be answered. Appreciate what you have; focus on what you’ve accomplished.

Yeah I definitely don't agree with that last part (but I agree with everything else you said). That may be a general path people travel on but it's certainly not connected to the development of the brain. People can mature through those stages much faster than he suggests. I'm sure the brain goes through changes, but I'm thinking more to the realm of focus and temperament due to hormones and development, I think psychological development is more experience related. There are definitely distinct psychological stages that can be identified and associated with age but I wouldn't associate them with any particular revelations. I see it more like a flower, the flower doesn't need to learn anything to begin a new stage in its life but something in it reaches proper maturity and a change occurs.

Something I was reading for school really puts this issue in perspective. It was about social learning in animals but I can't help but see the parallels in human society. It was basically shown that in an environment that changes slowly, transmissions are vertical, meaning most of the relevant things to be learned come from parents to offspring. But in an environment that changes quickly, transmissions tend to be much more horizontal, meaning things learned come more from peers.

So, it's like in traditional societies, the elders genuinely do tend to hold much more relevant information because things don't change much. But in modern society, things change quite a lot generation by generation, so we have to do a good deal of learning from our own peers.

Spoiler for Heavy Sleeper's post:

Originally Posted by Heavy Sleeper

I thought about this subject a while ago. I was wondering why older people are always seen as being more wise than younger people, and I hold the same view as the saying Darkmatters quoted. We only gain wisdom through experience. Any ideas or insights passed on to us by others is not wisdom, it's knowledge. And knowledge is not equal to wisdom, for knowledge is given, whereas wisdom is gained. I believe this is the view most people hold, and that is why the old are seen as wise. Old people are more likely to have gained a great degree of wisdom in their long lives than any young person could in the short time they've been alive.

The problem though is that people tend to generalize. And that's what got me thinking about it in the first place. Most people seem to have the idea that young people are simple creatures, who live in the here and now, and can't seem to grasp the bigger picture. They rush through life, looking for quick thrills, and never stop to think about the important things. Whereas old people are seen as wise old sages, who have seen it all and done it all. They can tell you things about life that you never could have realised with your wild, untamed mind. This view obviously doesn't take individual lifestyle or mindset into account. If a young man has travelled the world, learned many languages, spoken with thousands of amazing new people, experienced dozens of exciting cultures, and witnessed some of the most beautiful and wondrous spectacles the world has to offer, can he really be said to have less experience than the average pensioner?

My grandmother is in her seventies. She's lived through many things, from the terror of the Second World War to the confusing and fast paced modern age. She's lived through the rapidly changing decades of the twentieth century and witnessed the world go through great change throughout her lifetime. You could say that she has been through much in her life and that everything she has experienced, in her personal life and as part of the wider world, has made her very wise. And I would agree with you. But can she really be said to be more wise than the young man? After all, she's never been to another country. She's never experienced another culture or learned another language. She's led a life not so different from the average person. So is she more experienced than the young man? It's difficult to compare.

I think people need to stop generalizing and start judging the individual based on their personal experiences, not their age. Sorry for the long post.

I agree with everything you said, I wish I could like your post twice.

There have also been some good ideas from other people.

@Oneiro That was just annoying to read. Writing like that to be condescending, maybe for a couple sentences, in order to enhance a point, might be acceptable. But that was a long post.

As I said, older people are more likely than younger people to possess wisdom, but not always. Someone might have experienced wars and maybe a few divorces, and have wisdom about death and love, but not necessarily anything else. Yet, because the person is old, he'll likely claim wisdom about everything else.

There also seems to be a lot of false wisdom. Some of it might just be what Darkmatters said. Real wisdom that I've perceived to be false because I think I can see better than the person. But some I think is real. Has anyone visited that menarebetterthanwomen website? It's filled with men who have been through divorce and relationships and genuinely believe that women are far inferior to men. They'll claim to have wisdom about it, due to all of their experiences which usually involve failed marriages or other relationships with superficial stupid women. If I were a man, and the only women I'd ever interacted with were like the rich, stuck-up women in my dad's side of the family, I might agree with them. I guess what I'm saying is, often people think they have wisdom when they don't, because they might have undergone some extreme experiences in their lives which involve a biased sample, but which they generalise anyway and think applies to all situations.

You gotta remember though, that these 60 and 70 year olds grew up in the days before mass brainwashing and liberal propoganda in the education system. I'm 19, but I'm much more likely to have the same set of opinions on life and socity as a 70 year old than I am a 19 year old.

I know that the 70 year olds of today were teenagers themselves back in the day, but teenage immaturity for them and teenage immaturity today are quite different, observaing the majority of under 20's today makes me very concerned about what kind of society we'll have in 40 years time.

The oldest man I have ever talked to gave me his wisdom one night in a pub. 'Don't be afraid to do things in life that you are afraid to do, just do it. Keep enough money back for life's inevitable emergencies. And lastly, try to have sex with as many women as you can.......'