Thread: Were Blacks better off under segregation?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I mean If i wanna buy a house in the white neighbourhood, for the sole reason that it is the white neighbourhood, thats fine, no?

Sure. What I meant was more to the point of excluding people from something, because of their race. Like I said, when a system is founded upon choice, some compromises are going to have to be made. Obviously, people are still going to have the right to chose either a singular or diverse racial area. What wouldn't be fine is if those predominately white or black areas began to say that people of the opposite color do not have the right to move into the area. (And please let's just get this straight: a colloquial term for 'race' is 'color'. Everyone here knows this. Do yourself a favor and stop correcting everyone who says 'color' instead of race. In this context, they are interchangeable. Distinguishing between them is as pointless as me correcting you for calling me 'black,' when my skin isn't actually the [absence of] color known as 'black.')

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I look to South africa and fear what the US and Europe may become in 50-70 years. To people who see nothing wrong with white's becoming 10% in Europe/US, i simply say look at south africa today.

And you say my analogies are bad? You're equating what South Africa - a region that has never been rich, and barely scratches 'upper-middle class', by U.S. standards - has developed into, to what you think the United States is going to turn into, if whites become a minority? Again, just like you do in most of your argument, you draw these outlandish conclusions ("It's just 'better' for whatever reason." 'Most of the people I've talked to agree with me, so it's obviously right.'), but you really don't have any glue to hold those conclusions together.

What 'speaks volumes' here, to me, is the trail of un-countered points you've left in the thread, so far. There's been plenty that you (seemingly purposely) have not responded to - for whatever reason. It is the same when you debate with most racists or political ideologists or other divisive groups. The arguments are based on the same small number of points, and completely disregard all others, as if they do not exist, even when confronted with them.

We did a fun little raid on Stormfront a while back. Is that when your name was created? If so, I just now realized it. Lol. But it was the same thing, there. A few miniscule points were blown up to such proportions that they served as excuses to justify 'white nationalism' (which is so many cases, is just a euphemism for flat-out 'racism'), and they drew all these wild conclusions about how all blacks were 'actively taking over', and America is going to be run into the ground with a white minority. And the white race is going to wither and die out completely. Blah blah. They spout the same rhetoric to like-minded people, everyday of their lives, until every time someone speaks, the entire group of people immediately turns into a bobble-head session, nodding away, vacantly, in agreement. It usually portrays a lack of perspective, if nothing else. It is the epitome of narrow-mindedness.

I've told a story a few times on this site, about one of the most amazing conversations I've ever had. I went into a country western bar with my best friend, who's a white guy, and we had a few drinks and danced with a few girls. What I didn't know was that there had been an old, 50/60-something year old country dude at the bar - big guy - grilling me the whole night. When I went to the bar to get a drink, the guy looks at me and says something like "You know what? I'mma be honest with you. I'm a very racist man. I always have been. So since I seen you come in here (I was the only black person there), I've been staring at you. Hard. I was just waiting for you to start some kind of trouble. And I look at you, and I realize that you're just hear having fun, like the rest of us... I'm not used to that... I've always hated black people because of the experiences I've had with them, and what I see of them on the news and everything...So I'm kind of shocked to see you come in here like you did, and have a completely different way of acting."

We had a long conversation about race and family, and why he thought black people (as he's seen them) are the way that they are - because they had no respect for their mothers. So we started talking about moms and just human respect in general. We ended up buying each other drinks, and the dude actually started tearing up and thanked me for involuntarily 'teaching him' something about life, at his age.

That is perspective, and it is something that most of these xenophobic and ethnocentric ideologies - such as yours, and those of the people at Stormfront, and those of the people in most 'Black Power' communities as well - just don't seem to have much of, in my opinion.

Like I said, I grew up in mostly white areas, and I have an enormous black family, with whom I'm very close. While you can try to quantify the number of 'real black people' you've spoken to in three figures, my entire life has been centered around awareness of race relations - both good and bad. I don't know what life is like over there in the UK, but in my experience, I can only tell you that your view has much less support than you seem to think it does.

We did a fun little raid on Stormfront a while back. Is that when your name was created?

I was going to mention that actually, yes I do remember this little raid on stormfront, I joined Dreamviews sometime in 2007, and become a Nationalist around spring 2009. I joined dreamviews first, and when I first joined I had quite a liberal view of the world. My opinions were probably not far from your own, and then someone made a post on here, about this nasty evil racist website 'Stormfront', I can't find the link to the original post now, but you seem to remember it anyway. What actually happened is I did join the little gang over to stormfront, I didn't actually post anything myself at first, I just registered do I could see what the Dreamviews crew were posting.

However, later on I started questioning some of the people there, not in the kind of "You're view is wrong because of X,Y,Z" way, But sort of with curiosity more than anything, I didn't attack I merely privately messaged a few people and asked them why they believed what they did, what made them that way, that sort of thing. After getting into longer conversations with people there, I actually converted to their viewpoint. These days Stormfront is the forum I visit the most, although I still do occasionally pop back here to view some threads on Lucid Dreaming, and post Threads from a really conservative viewpoint, which winds a lot of you folks up . Maybe a few more of you should come over to the good side

Race is pretty arbitrary to begin with. There are probably dark 'white' people who could pass as 'black' and light 'black' people who could pass as 'white'. And I am not even counting people who are mixed, though if you count them then it is even more vague. Which brings up another point, what do you do with people who are both 'black' and 'white' under segregation?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I was going to mention that actually, yes I do remember this little raid on stormfront, I joined Dreamviews sometime in 2007, and become a Nationalist around spring 2009. I joined dreamviews first, and when I first joined I had quite a liberal view of the world. My opinions were probably not far from your own, and then someone made a post on here, about this nasty evil racist website 'Stormfront', I can't find the link to the original post now, but you seem to remember it anyway. What actually happened is I did join the little gang over to stormfront, I didn't actually post anything myself at first, I just registered do I could see what the Dreamviews crew were posting.

However, later on I started questioning some of the people there, not in the kind of "You're view is wrong because of X,Y,Z" way, But sort of with curiosity more than anything, I didn't attack I merely privately messaged a few people and asked them why they believed what they did, what made them that way, that sort of thing. After getting into longer conversations with people there, I actually converted to their viewpoint. These days Stormfront is the forum I visit the most, although I still do occasionally pop back here to view some threads on Lucid Dreaming, and post Threads from a really conservative viewpoint, which winds a lot of you folks up . Maybe a few more of you should come over to the good side

Heh. I figured as much. Though I thought more that you were probably someone on Stormfront originally, that decided to make a name here, also.

I respect that you (allegedly) have put a lot of thought into your divisive view, and I think I've done a fairly good job of voicing my own. In the end - and whether or not you chose to concede to the fact - I do know that the view you hold isn't as universal as you seem to think it is, and that your assertion that it is objectively 'right' is based on much less substance than you seem to believe it is. That's good enough for me.

At the end of the day though I'm not sure what you all think i'm like in the real world, I'm definately not what a lot of people think a Stormfronter is like. I accept the fact that my view is in the minoirty, and possibly shriking, although it's hard to tell in this age. I didn't say my view was objectivly right, as no view is, it's all subjective.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

At the end of the day though I'm not sure what you all think i'm like in the real world, I'm definately not what a lot of people think a Stormfronter is like.

Be that as it may, we can only go by the presentation that you give us, and the views that you express. As someone said before, this is a very 'touchy' subject to some, so when you advocate division - perpetuating the idea that people shouldn't be free to associate and learn with and grow with whom they please, you'd better be expecting to get a lot of flack. Of course we don't know 'the real you', though. We just know what of you we can get from our limited exposure to you. Such is the way of perspective!

Originally Posted by Thatperson

I didn't say my view was objectivly right, as no view is, it's all subjective.

I was hoping you'd say that.

perpetuating the idea that people shouldn't be free to associate and learn with and grow with whom they please, you'd better be expecting to get a lot of flack

I am not actually against this free association, I can understand why you may have thought this by my general posts, but that is not the case. As I said, I think segregation in the old US model was quite poor, the OP was merely asking whether that bad system was the lesser of two evils.

That said, I am definatly in favour of a White Nationalist state within the US, as well as a Black Nationalist state, of course there wouldn't be restrictions on freedom of association, because those whites in the White-Only area, wouldn't want to mix with blacks, and vice versa, if they did they could always go to the non-segregated 90% of the Country.

You keep talking about the formation of nationalist states, as opposed to the old "separate but equal" facilities within each community. How is that ever get off the ground in strictly practical sense? There are black and white people living together in even the most remote and parochial corners of the country. How do you split out the communities in the areas that are now? The implications of this is that if you want the benefits of living in the country you are a citizen of, you have to move. Are you literally advocating international boarders being drawn in the country?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

That said, I am definatly in favour of a White Nationalist state within the US, as well as a Black Nationalist state, of course there wouldn't be restrictions on freedom of association, because those whites in the White-Only area, wouldn't want to mix with blacks, and vice versa, if they did they could always go to the non-segregated 90% of the Country.

Personally, I think that would set America back so far it's not even funny.

As things are now, people already have the ability to move to predominately white or predominately black areas, if they so choose. Some of them do. This has come about naturally, and it is fine. It is both unnecessary and inflammatory to create 'nationalist' nations, to further divide one race from another. Much like with religion, some people may flock to their own familiar cultures, but creating 'zones', where the opposite is not allowed (whether just schools or neighborhoods) does much more to hinder race relations than to promote them. What they would do is create even larger breeding grounds for prejudicial rhetoric and hate - by way of unfamiliarity - to fester. That is hard enough to do, even while people are even more easily exposed to the opposite side of the spectrum, but aren't always able to experience it. To promote the growth of regions, where the building up of one culture over another is the main focus(with the kind of past that blacks and whites have had in America over the years), is asking for trouble, IMO. You can't just undo everything that has been done in the past, and if something like that were to happen now, it would most likely turn extremely ugly, in the long run.

but what about when that predominantly white area caeses to become majority white? I hate to think that i'm going to have to move house 6-7 times in the future because this keeps happening. For the US, the voluntary option would be favourable, if it actually worked, but it doesn't. In europe, stopping Immigration and partial repatriation would solve that problem, and we arn't quite at US levels yet.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

but what about when that predominantly white area caeses to become majority white? I hate to think that i'm going to have to move house 6-7 times in the future because this keeps happening. For the US, the voluntary option would be favourable, if it actually worked, but it doesn't. In europe, stopping Immigration and partial repatriation would solve that problem, and we arn't quite at US levels yet.

Again: Compromise is something that has to be accepted in modern society. If your view is based on an unwillingness to compromise (letting other schools of thought in, besides those of your own race, for instance), you are depriving yourself of perspective. You're remaining willfully ignorant, and I don't believe you've show it to actually benefit anyone - aside from simply expressing your doubts.

Remember that we are all originally of the same ilk, and race is just a byproduct of spreading the human species across different climates. You show no sympathy toward the dissemination of the "one race" that we all used to be - which originated in Africa - and yet you try to rationalize your desire to preserve the 'purity' of your race, now that subsections of humanity have evolved due to geographical location. That, in itself, is flawed (or at best, incomplete) logic. You fear the change of a diminishing white race, yet promote the cultural changes that led that race to exist in the first place. In my opinion, the integration of race is just nature sifting itself back into uniformity, as it tends to do. It is often a slow and imperfect process, but it happens, despite resistance.

Well the White race is the only race under threat, so the world will unlike become a mono-mixed-racial coffe soup. Blacks, arabs, chinese, and indians for exmaple will all continue to exist until the end of time, and the white race will also. It's just that I don't wants to live in a country, and I don't want my decendants to live in a country where they are the racial minority, not too much to ask is it? Now I know blacks have been in america for hundreds of years, so the situation there is different to Europe, but what about the european americans whom want to live in a white majorty country?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

what about the european americans whom want to live in a white majorty country?

They would be much happier if they got their heads straight?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Whites in 2011 are being killed because of their race, I've been spat at, physically assulted, threatened, and received death threats for being white, but at least it's only that for now, incidently all of this occured after I became of this viewpoint, so you can't really say it was because of emotional bias that i switched from Liberal to Nationalist.

You may not be able to take your viewpoint as emotional bias but one could easily make a case that your viewpoint is possibly the true cause of all of these incidents if they never happened before you changed your mind. If you never saw this sort of thing before you starting thinking this way, what makes you think it is just about race? I don't know how you dress or behave but I do know a lot of people who really don't like skinheads who happen to be white. Perhaps you should think about how you conduct yourself around people of different races and see if your behavior might play a role in these interactions.

taosaur, so 45 million people in the UK, need to get their heads straight?

xaqaria, as I said earlier, I'm not the skinhead type, and people rarely assume I have these views, I actually had a non-white friend, who I never really talked with about politics or stuff, then after about 4 months of knowing them, someone told them about my beliefs and they wouldn't believe it, you should have seen the look on their face when I told them it was true . I conduct myself respectfully regardless of race. All the times I was spat at etc I was wearing a shirt and tie, not really unique to White Nationalists. Thing is though, this isn't really common in most areas, these all happened in areas of less than 10% white, now this is one of the primary reason I want the Uk to be majoirty White, I don't want to be oppressed simply because I'm white (moreso than white people are oppresed in the Uk anyway)

There are 45 million "european americans" in the UK? I can see why you're worried about immigration.

I was referring to my earlier point, that in a study of the Uk 73% of people wanted the UK to remain a white majoirty country. The statistics may be different for european americans, but the point remains that whites wanting to live in white majoirty countries is still mainstream opinion.

You realize that all of those "white" people were at each others' throats over ethnic difference before the brown people showed up, right? And that the brown people coming in are a direct result of your ancestors putting themselves in charge of their ancestors' homelands? At just what point do we freeze history?

Originally Posted by Taosaur

your ancestors

Because all white people are decended from slave traders, right... *Facepalm* If people don't think I can take pride in group acheivements, then I won't feel guilty for gropu wrongdoings

Well, I obviously hit an associative trigger for you, but what I said was there's a direct cause and effect relationship as to why there are so many different ethnicities in the UK. When you decide to have an empire on which "the sun never sets," there's going to be some traffic in every direction, but particularly toward the seat of power--in this case, England. It's a bit late to say, "Oy, bloody hell! Everybody go home!"

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Because all white people are decended from slave traders, right... *Facepalm*

Yeah, Taosaur. You can't lump all white people together like that.

The British Empire was nigh on dead by the time Immigration started to occur, and whilst the bulk of immigration to the UK has been from former colonies they didn't move during the time of the empire. Anyway, the UK was a strange exception in that case, the Dutch Empire was miniscule in comparison to the immigration they have today, what about norway, sweden, denmark etc.

Mark, I'm not sure if there was sarcasm there, but taosaur seemed to like your post mocking him, so could you clarify?

He was not mocking Taosaur, he was mocking you and the obvious double standard that you live your life by.

what double standard is that?

Taosaur specifically said my ancestors were responbile for immigration, when that is an outright lie, because none of them were in the upper classes or politics.