Thread: We Can’t Believe These People

Originally posted by Seeker

Please feel free to contact Icedawg if you feel I should be removed from my position. He is afterall owner of this site and I work for him. If he feels I am remiss in my duties or am abusing my powers, I will gladly resign.

No!! You can't let Leo treat you like that....please stay an Admin, b/c you rock...
BTW, Icedawg isn't just about to listen to Leo, b/c he is alot smarter than that!(I know, b/c he helped revive dreamin of gamin)..
You deserve that position, b/c you helped me debug my email, my website, & helped restore my account, please believe me!!...And believe me, I will let Icedawg know about this (after all, he did unofficially adopt me).

Ok, After reading that post again I still cannot see anywhere where seeker was abusive or bagering. I've lost what ever respect I once had for this "Leo" I used to think he used to know so much and worte long post beacse of he knowledge, but it appears he is a closed minded rambeling bafoon. Whats with you Leo? Are you some sort of freak who has to be right all the time? I dont know. Seeker has been more than nice to you and your a fool for acting the way you are.

Space Cadet wrote:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

i don't lie can't see the point..[/b]

[/b][/quote]
You just did.

Jay Dawg wrote:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

lets all beat up leo.[/b]

[/b][/quote]
I'm down.

Leo, you are taking things much too seriously. A lot of people like to read your threads when you are not fighting, so don't get yourself banned . If it makes you feel better, a lot of times I just click on the name of a person I want to read from and just skim through the posts they made, so it doesn't always matter which forum something is in. I found this thread by looking through your posts, leo !

However, with that said... Does anyone else think this thread should be "back-paged" to the Feedback Forum ? (If not Senseless Banter ?)

Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

You see, I am possessed of a Wonderful Knowledge which I cannot associate with any Lie. Back many years ago I had a Dream in common with another person. I have written about it many time. Because two people had one dream, it shows that Dreams are an Objective Reality -- that Dreaming is Real. It shows the Reality of some basis for Extrasensory Perception. It opens the door to great Possibilities, which coud give many people new to Dreaming a great deal of Hope, BUT ONLY IF THEY COULD BELIEVE IT TRUE. Yet the Moderation of this Page actively campaigns for the endorcement of a notorious Liar.[/b]

Leo, Leo, Leo. What are we to do with you? If you really feel there is a problem here in regards to honesty, how about helping us out by providing specific examples? Just fire off a PM to one of us--preferably a brief one that arrives immediately at the pertinent information--detailing users who are clearly here to disseminate lies and falsehoods only. Please, Leo, help us help you. If you are unwilling to do that, then please cease and desist your tenuous and unwarranted attacks on my staff members. They're not getting paid to do what they're doing, but simply volunteer their time to help ensure this place doesn't erode and finally collapse into chaos, dismissed forever as a distant memory from those who used to inhabit it and breathe renewed life into it every day. You may not like some of them, but just because you disagree on some fundamental ideologies with them that hardly means they are not good at the various tasks involved in getting the job done.

There's a good quote here, and I'd like to bring it up:

<!--QuoteBegin-OpheliaBlue
You know, did it ever occur to you, that you bring out the worst in people?

I hadn't thought of articulating it like that before, but you know, I think Ophelia's done a fantastic job of summing up our little escalating plight here. You really do seem to have a special way with people. I haven't actually partaken in 'Googling' your name, but I've heard you've left a dark trail behind you, trampling upon the probably good-natured people who create and inhabit these various online communities, and denouncing everything they believe in and stand for along the way, while proclaiming your own undeniable and interminable superiority. Exactly how many forums have you managed to be forcefully driven from? Who's next after us? It seems to me you have some serious social issues: can't really find a way to fit in? You obviously want to, somehow, at some level, otherwise you wouldn't have joined at all. At the same time, though, there's that other part of you that apparently feels nothing but contempt for people and humanity in general, so you're unfortunately always experiencing an inner conflict. I don't know what happened to you as a child, Leo, but whatever it is, please stop taking it out on my forum members.

Originally posted by icedawg


I hadn't thought of articulating it like that before, but you know, I think Ophelia's done a fantastic job of summing up our little escalating plight here. You really do seem to have a special way with people. I haven't actually partaken in 'Googling' your name, but I've heard you've left a dark trail behind you, trampling upon the probably good-natured people who create and inhabit these various online communities, and denouncing everything they believe in and stand for along the way, while proclaiming your own undeniable and interminable superiority. Exactly how many forums have you managed to be forcefully driven from? Who's next after us? It seems to me you have some serious social issues: can't really find a way to fit in? You obviously want to, somehow, at some level, otherwise you wouldn't have joined at all. At the same time, though, there's that other part of you that apparently feels nothing but contempt for people and humanity in general, so you're unfortunately always experiencing an inner conflict. I don't know what happened to you as a child, Leo, but whatever it is, please stop taking it out on my forum members.

Well said Icedawg! Please listen to Icedawg, Leo! If he is able to take care of this website, & be a part of mine, then he is incredibly wise!

Originally posted by icedawg


I hadn't thought of articulating it like that before, but you know, I think Ophelia's done a fantastic job of summing up our little escalating plight here. You really do seem to have a special way with people. I haven't actually partaken in 'Googling' your name, but I've heard you've left a dark trail behind you, trampling upon the probably good-natured people who create and inhabit these various online communities, and denouncing everything they believe in and stand for along the way, while proclaiming your own undeniable and interminable superiority. Exactly how many forums have you managed to be forcefully driven from? Who's next after us? It seems to me you have some serious social issues: can't really find a way to fit in? You obviously want to, somehow, at some level, otherwise you wouldn't have joined at all. At the same time, though, there's that other part of you that apparently feels nothing but contempt for people and humanity in general, so you're unfortunately always experiencing an inner conflict. I don't know what happened to you as a child, Leo, but whatever it is, please stop taking it out on my forum members.

Perhaps the logical possibility should occur to you that everyone has been wrong and I have been consistently right (do you know the webpages I have argued with?). You see, the problem is that all of these Pages have roughly the same Dictatorial Constitutions. There is no Freedom of Speech. Moderators typically look upon themselves as the Leaders and the Protectors of the Party Line, whatever that is, and yes, I seldom agree. Then there are the Rules. I am very outspoken. Who write more thoughtful essays than I do? And yet it doesn't take much to provoke some people of half my intelligence into confronting me and then being offended by my rejecting their silly reasonings. All they need to is complain once to Moderators who already want me gone, and I am gone. You see, that is how the System Works.

Now, if there was freedom of speech then I would still be on my first Web Page where I argued Religion against Atheists. Now were the Atheists supposed to enjoy me? Then I went to Protestant Pages where I argued for the Higher Religions of the World. Were they supposed to enjoy me? You see, I have not made it a practice to go to Pages where I agree with everything... what then would I have to teach?

Anyway, Icedawg, and whoever else shares your reasoning -- you are either stupid for having dismissed the Logic that I was always right and have been a consistent victim, or you are intellectually dishonest for suppressing that Truth in order to win your hateful case. You know, if honesty were the criteria instead of feelgood fuzzy social getalong skills, then it would be you who would be banned.

Oh, now the attack is focussing on my being different.

You know, I have never pretended to be the same. And I do quite think I have come with a Divine Mission. Therefore, how could it possibly worry me that these Worldly and Corrupt Organizations do not welcome me with open arms?

Have you heard of the Curse of Cassandra. Whatever she said would be True, but nobody would ever believe her. Perhaps I have a similar curse, where everything I say would be true, but the Atheists, Bigots, and now Idiots would hate me for it.

I havent really been around here long, but it would seem that you are misinterpreting people's good intent of having a friendly debate, thinking that they are making a malicious attack on your point of view and intellect.

I dont understand it, I read the topic which supposedly set you off, the one where you guys argued about castaneda's writing. I failed to locate anything in the whole topic that was offensive in anyway, by you or anyone else. I even thought that you held your ground well in the debate, like you usually do. But then you go making a post like this one.

You talk about dishonesty, and I agree with you completely. I have seen the "dishonesty" you are speaking out against. Personally I think that if someones gullible enough to fall for it, let them. Anyway, there is no way to stop this lying unless the moderators were to completely suppress "freedom of speech", which you hold in such high esteem.

Leo, you complain about the mods trying to silence you, but you show us no examples other than them moving your posts in the right forums. Without hard evidence, I dont think anyones going to believe you.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
Oh, now the attack is focussing on my being different.

You know, I have never pretended to be the same. And I do quite think I have come with a Divine Mission. Therefore, how could it possibly worry me that these Worldly and Corrupt Organizations do not welcome me with open arms?

Have you heard of the Curse of Cassandra. Whatever she said would be True, but nobody would ever believe her. Perhaps I have a similar curse, where everything I say would be true, but the Atheists, Bigots, and now Idiots would hate me for it.

How am I going to know if your always right, not one of those people that "We cant believe"? You dont offer me anything other than your opinion. Until now, I thought you were correct, at least most of the time. But your definatly not right here.

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane


How am I going to know if your always right, not one of those people that \"We cant believe\"? You dont offer me anything other than your opinion. Until now, I thought you were correct, at least most of the time. But your definatly not right here.

It depends upon your native intelligence and your powers of discernment. If you rank highly in these things, then it is likely you will understand my point of view. if you can never understand a thing I say, then you will suppose I am some crackpot and go after me for it, and then complain to the Moderators when I get impatient with your stupidity.

You know, I am not universally hated. On every board I've ever been to, I have made friends. But yes, these friends are of the highest intellectual caliber. so, yes, of course, one could not suppose I would make many friends. I am not Will Rogers. In fact, I think it only natural not to like most people one meets. We are told at the End of Time that most people would be Corrupt and Foolish. It is Sad, but I find it True.

Anyway, I hope those few people for whom I have expressed my approval... I hope they are conscious of the honor.

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
I havent really been around here long, but it would seem that you are misinterpreting people's good intent of having a friendly debate, thinking that they are making a malicious attack on your point of view and intellect.

I dont understand it, I read the topic which supposedly set you off, the one where you guys argued about castaneda's writing. I failed to locate anything in the whole topic that was offensive in anyway, by you or anyone else. I even thought that you held your ground well in the debate, like you usually do. But then you go making a post like this one.

You talk about dishonesty, and I agree with you completely. I have seen the \"dishonesty\" you are speaking out against. Personally I think that if someones gullible enough to fall for it, let them. Anyway, there is no way to stop this lying unless the moderators were to completely suppress \"freedom of speech\", which you hold in such high esteem.

Leo, you complain about the mods trying to silence you, but you show us no examples other than them moving your posts in the right forums. Without hard evidence, I dont think anyones going to believe you.

That post was subsequently backpaged and then the moderators PM'd me to give me my last warning. I guess they felt publically humiiated and used their positions of authority to make their point where logic and ethics had failed them.

Also, some of the complaint was mine. I continued with argument after argument, none of which the Moderator would answer with anything but further insistance that it was not possible that I should be right and he should be wrong. He went so far as to say that if I could prove him evil for his preferences, then he would enjoy the designation. It was the rejection of my Arguments on Aesthetic Grounds. the person has no place on a page where things are rationally argued. Now I don't mind somebody expressing a personal aesthetic preference. but to insist upon it on page after page after page -- it was harrassment and it was coming from a Moderator from whom there could be no redress.

And the Moderator was supporting a known fraud from whom every other Organization has had the sense to distance themselves. Since the Moderator wanted to harrass me in the interests of advancing another authors lies, I decided this Lack of Ethical and Moral Sensitivity should be exposed. he started it, and I would make a big stink out of it just to show him I won't be screwed with.

Well, I guess if the mods PM'd you, it would be fairly easy to take a screenshot of the messages for everyone to see.

Seeker was asking for was evidence, such as a PM or a quote, something that could prove he was abusing his power and forcing his opinion by threatening you. Simply debating is not abusing moderator responsibilities.

Just because someone wont change their standpoint on a subject doesnt mean its harassment. Look at yourself, I dont see you even CONSIDERING anyone elses views, even after 3 pages of debate.

Originally posted by Cryptic Cane
Well, I guess if the mods PM'd you, it would be fairly easy to take a screenshot of the messages for everyone to see.

Seeker was asking for was evidence, such as a PM or a quote, something that could prove he was abusing his power and forcing his opinion by threatening you. Simply debating is not abusing moderator responsibilities.

Just because someone wont change their standpoint on a subject doesnt mean its harassment. Look at yourself, I dont see you even CONSIDERING anyone elses views, even after 3 pages of debate.

So, I am supposed to prove that his giving me a warning did not involve my thumping him hard in a debate.

My point is that Moderators, if they are to play at being referees, should never take the field as players. Are we to suppose that I can spank him as though her were a naughty little girl, in a debate and then that he can be totally impartial in regards to my other Posts.

Immediately afterward my posts were backpaged... which had never happened before, and I was given warnings... which had never happened before.

Looks like abuse of power to me... but I am only the victim.

What are you trying to accomplish Leo? shut up and stop being a fool. Just drop this and Im sure everyone woudl be more than happy to forgive and forget. Maby you have some deep issues going on with you (well thats pretty obvious due to your explosive irrational behavior) that we dont knwo about. Perhaps it would be best if you took a break from Dv and then maby in a month or so come back when you have calmed down.

Originally posted by Leo Volont
We Can’t Believe These People

The most important consideration when evaluating Subjective Phenomena is the Intellectual Integrity and Honesty of those giving their accounts. When once we find a Culture that glorifies in Sensationalism that is divorced from all appreciation for the Truth, then we have entered a Sci-Fi Page, a Fantasy Page, but definitely NOT a page where we can hope to gain any Real Insights or discover what we can trust are any Real Possibilities.

The Moderation on this page has repeatedly urged me to endorse the writings of Carlos Casteneda, who they full well know has been discredited for repeatedly publishing false reports while in the guise of upholding his credentials as a Research Anthropologist – a Scientist, who was turning in flagrantly false data. Yet it seems to be the Official Policy of this Page to stand behind that man’s writings? Why? Apparently it is thought that the Sensational and Theatrical nature of his fictions, which he published claiming it to be true, would be good for boosting the general Enthusiasm for Lucid Dreaming. It seems the Culture of this Page is intended toward pumping up Expectations, while it may only be of secondary concern whether any of these expectation can be actualized. And then, considering the Culture of Lies that is being encouraged here, by the Moderation, when we do here fabulous accounts of unbelievable feats accomplished while in Lucid Dreaming, we can only wonder whether it is not just more hype of fantasy, put forward by those who feel that if it is Okay for the Hero of our Moderators to falsify and exaggerate for the sake of a Good Story, then why should they refrain from such practices themselves. Indeed, how many liars here have not been applauded for their lies. The Bigger the Better. “I Lucid Dream every five minutes, control the universe, and all my enemies bow before me”… seems to be the gist of reports given by the those who do not receive any warnings from the Moderation. You see, patently false hype is what flies here. It’s telling the Truth that will get you in trouble.

But I did not give in to such pressures, and so first my posts were ‘back-paged’ to the unread sections (perhaps you’ve seen them by mistake when you wanted to click on something else), and then I was warned that I would be banned for bucking the ‘Party Line’.

I am a Religious Person and so I am acquainted with the concept of Religious Doctrine – that orthodoxy must be preserved and so adherents to what purports to be the ‘True’ Religion must be humble and accept doctrines, supposing that if they have a quarrel with any facet of the Doctrine, that it must only be because, in their human frailty, they must somehow have been mistaken, and that those who know better, and affirm these Doctrines, must be right. I never liked that idea very much. The idea of Doctrine seems to be a way for the Powerful Elites to sidestep the weaknesses in their Arguments. But at least there is a certain sense that everybody means well, that although they are at a loss to completely explain why, they do hope that they can believe that what they say is True. But, this is how corrupt This Page has become, that they don’t even pretend that it is True. They advocate a Lie and then they first shuffle off my Writings and then threaten to Ban me, for objecting to their Campaign of Lies.

I think we should require that all Posters should take an Oath for Intellectual Honesty. Yes, we may abbreviate a complex dream, or simplify a notion here and there, but we must hold it unacceptable to sensationalize, to exaggerate, and to advocate what we know to be false. And we need to throw out these Moderators whom we now know for certain we cannot trust.


Oh, and the Warning I was given was rather peculiar. It said that the Rules would not be applied againt \"friends\" but only against people with whom they have a problem. Selective Justice, or I should say, Targeted Retribution. It does not seem like very fair and equitable treatment, but I could hardly expect more from these moderators, given their general direction of behavior and what they've shown of the aptitudes.

apparently due to the amount a replies everyone else understood that accept me but hey im only 14 its in my nature to be confused by long written things, i think isort of get it but that kind of thing is impossible to police, i dont like to write 1000 words every time i post a dream i keep it breif just the main things in it (also im not that great at remembering details)

Originally posted by Feeble Wizard
Leo, you are taking things much too seriously. A lot of people like to read your threads when you are not fighting, so don't get yourself banned . If it makes you feel better, a lot of times I just click on the name of a person I want to read from and just skim through the posts they made, so it doesn't always matter which forum something is in. I found this thread by looking through your posts, leo !

However, with that said... Does anyone else think this thread should be \"back-paged\" to the Feedback Forum ? (If not Senseless Banter ?)

Oh, cool... I never imagined that that my posts would be actively looked for. thank you. and yes, I suppose somebody must enjoy reading my posts, because I could have bet my retirement that I would have been banned by now. I is true that I have been banned alot in the past and so I can discern the pattern fairly well, or so I thought. Maybe they need to convene a meeting first, and I am just living on borrowed time.

But, still, in any organization where certain people are given absolute powers, those with whom they disagree will never be around for long. And it seems to be a Universal Problem with Web Pages where there are simply no guarantees for Freedom of Speech, but all sorts of written in excuses to get rid of people who are considered to be troublesome, by the loosest of definitions and with not even the slightest pretence to for appeal.

Perhaps I should simply go back and sue all of these webpages for failure to render any form of due process. Nothing can change a System for the better more than to take people to Court and sue them for everything they got. It will make moderators think twice before they gratuitiously damage people's reputations and restrict their freedoms.

Originally posted by Barbizzle
What are you trying to accomplish Leo? shut up and stop being a fool. Just drop this and Im sure everyone woudl be more than happy to forgive and forget. Maby you have some deep issues going on with you (well thats pretty obvious due to your explosive irrational behavior) that we dont knwo about. Perhaps it would be best if you took a break from Dv and then maby in a month or so come back when you have calmed down.

Now, what about you? Are your insults supposed to be helping?

Now, about forgiving and forgetting... I was sent a last and final warning. When are we going to forget about that?

They want a stink, then I will make a stink. They want the stink to go away, then they can assure me that Moderators will forever just back away and leave me alone.

Weeks ago I warned them all that I do not appreciate the Entire Moderator System, and think it is against all liberal principals of Freedom. They came after me nonetheless, and then they offer to punish me for doing what I warned them would happen.

I will back off and forgive when they do.

Originally posted by Gargen



apparently due to the amount a replies everyone else understood that accept me but hey im only 14 its in my nature to be confused by long written things, i think isort of get it but that kind of thing is impossible to police, i dont like to write 1000 words every time i post a dream i keep it breif just the main things in it (also im not that great at remembering details)

Actually, 14 is just the right age to begin getting into the more complex writings. I read all of Dickens by the time I was 13, and then was relieved to find that Fielding, Johnson, Austen, the Bronte Sisters, Hardy and some others were so much more syntaxically organized.

Anyway, I would recommend "Tom Jones" by Henry Fielding, which is often an amusing novel, but which contains very long and well organized periods and paragraphs. After you get through that one book, you're overall ability to follow complex thoughts and to express yourself in both reading and writing will greatly improve. Why, I'm sure you will even jump by a few grade point averages.

But for the best English Style, without the forced stretch that Fielding puts upon one, I suppose it is a tie between Jane Austen and Thomas Hardy, depending on whether one prefers the Masculine or the Feminine.

yea w/e i just read books on programming and metal bands

Originally posted by Gargen
yea w/e i just read books on programming and metal bands

Well, if two people are competing for the leadership of a Metal Band, and all other things being equal, the one is scathingly articulate, and the other one always at a profound loss of words, then the Articulate one will ascend while his stuttering brother declines.

don't let anybody know, but start reading some quality literature, a little bit every day. Believe me, it will raise you up, even among that gang of hoodlums you run with. You'll seem more clever and everybody likes that.

and I do practice what I preach. I make myself study some foreign language everyday. it never seems like much, but once in awhile I catch myself understanding some of it. And it also keeps me from being quite so careless with my english.

My dear, dear, Leo,

You just don't seem to understand. This is a Lucid Dreaming forum.

Our sole purpose is to help inform people and to help them in the development of their abilities to have lucid dreams.

We are NOT a debating site as you seem to think. Please consider this. It is not our mission to debate the right way or to debate morals and such. All religions and viewpoints are welcome here. We do all that we can to provide a neutral forum in which people can discuss Lucid Dreaming.

That it our charter and that is what our staff is committed to bring about, promotion of lucid dreaming.

If you think you have found a site on which you can endlessless debate, you are surely mistaken.

Originally posted by Seeker
My dear, dear, Leo, *

You just don't seem to understand. *This is a Lucid Dreaming forum.

Our sole purpose is to help inform people and to help them in the development of their abilities to have lucid dreams.

We are NOT a debating site as you seem to think. *Please consider this. *It is not our mission to debate the right way or to debate morals and such. *All religions and viewpoints are welcome here. *We do all that we can to provide a neutral forum in which people can discuss Lucid Dreaming.

That it our charter and that is what our staff is committed to bring about, promotion of lucid dreaming.

If you think you have found a site on which you can endlessless debate, you are surely mistaken.

And you don't seem to understand how important Honesty is to your charter. In subjective matters, Honesty from one person to another is the only basis for trust that purported techniques or occurrances are REALLY possible, and not just some sensational clap-trap that won't work and has never worked, but promulagated only because it sounded impressive.

I offer the example of my own experience in which I shared a dream with a second party. This PROVES that dreams are Objective Phenomena. but only if I can be believed. The credibility of All of Our Dream Research rests on our personal trustworthiness.

I want to be believed.

Last week you dismissed that as my simply shooting for debate points. You pretended that no serious individual could possibly REALLY consider ethics an important issue. It was extremely patronizing.

And then when I insisted that my own credibiiltiy demanded that I in no way ever attach my name to anything the least bit favorable toward Castenada, again you dismissed my concerns for my own reputation.

And then you offered to make lite of it all by fully volunteering to be the epitome of absolute evil. You accuse me of Debating, but what was that then just screwing with me with the sophistry of a school boy.

So, no, I again reiterate that a Lucid Dream Research Team is good for nothing unless it is absolutely understood that the Truth can never be violated.

And it still looks as though you are entirely unconscious of that lesson.

And about Endless Debates. It was you who badgered me last week. When I said "NO" were you not free to walk away. It was you who persisted, and then it was me who was punished for finally trying to say enough.

Good trick, trying to turn it around and blame me.

hey, you don't want a Eternal Debate, just say, "I'm sorry Leo, I should have appreciated the point you were making. Forgive me for having offended your sensibilities". But no, you would rather twist things around and bully people.

If there is an Eternal Debate it is because you can't admit you're wrong.

yeah, googling his name showed some interesting results.... try it yourself

Leo, your wisdom is way above this forum, we dumbasses cant understand the shit you post... Maybe some other forum will better understand you.

It is certain that you like to debate... It amazes me how much time you must spend online looking for confrontation and a way to spread your amazing ideas... several long ass posts on this forum + tons more on other + followup messages... Do you even have a life outside your theories and college education?