We Can’t Believe These People
We Can’t Believe These People
The most important consideration when evaluating Subjective Phenomena is the Intellectual Integrity and Honesty of those giving their accounts. When once we find a Culture that glorifies in Sensationalism that is divorced from all appreciation for the Truth, then we have entered a Sci-Fi Page, a Fantasy Page, but definitely NOT a page where we can hope to gain any Real Insights or discover what we can trust are any Real Possibilities.
The Moderation on this page has repeatedly urged me to endorse the writings of Carlos Casteneda, who they full well know has been discredited for repeatedly publishing false reports while in the guise of upholding his credentials as a Research Anthropologist – a Scientist, who was turning in flagrantly false data. Yet it seems to be the Official Policy of this Page to stand behind that man’s writings? Why? Apparently it is thought that the Sensational and Theatrical nature of his fictions, which he published claiming it to be true, would be good for boosting the general Enthusiasm for Lucid Dreaming. It seems the Culture of this Page is intended toward pumping up Expectations, while it may only be of secondary concern whether any of these expectation can be actualized. And then, considering the Culture of Lies that is being encouraged here, by the Moderation, when we do here fabulous accounts of unbelievable feats accomplished while in Lucid Dreaming, we can only wonder whether it is not just more hype of fantasy, put forward by those who feel that if it is Okay for the Hero of our Moderators to falsify and exaggerate for the sake of a Good Story, then why should they refrain from such practices themselves. Indeed, how many liars here have not been applauded for their lies. The Bigger the Better. “I Lucid Dream every five minutes, control the universe, and all my enemies bow before me”… seems to be the gist of reports given by the those who do not receive any warnings from the Moderation. You see, patently false hype is what flies here. It’s telling the Truth that will get you in trouble.
But I did not give in to such pressures, and so first my posts were ‘back-paged’ to the unread sections (perhaps you’ve seen them by mistake when you wanted to click on something else), and then I was warned that I would be banned for bucking the ‘Party Line’.
I am a Religious Person and so I am acquainted with the concept of Religious Doctrine – that orthodoxy must be preserved and so adherents to what purports to be the ‘True’ Religion must be humble and accept doctrines, supposing that if they have a quarrel with any facet of the Doctrine, that it must only be because, in their human frailty, they must somehow have been mistaken, and that those who know better, and affirm these Doctrines, must be right. I never liked that idea very much. The idea of Doctrine seems to be a way for the Powerful Elites to sidestep the weaknesses in their Arguments. But at least there is a certain sense that everybody means well, that although they are at a loss to completely explain why, they do hope that they can believe that what they say is True. But, this is how corrupt This Page has become, that they don’t even pretend that it is True. They advocate a Lie and then they first shuffle off my Writings and then threaten to Ban me, for objecting to their Campaign of Lies.
I think we should require that all Posters should take an Oath for Intellectual Honesty. Yes, we may abbreviate a complex dream, or simplify a notion here and there, but we must hold it unacceptable to sensationalize, to exaggerate, and to advocate what we know to be false. And we need to throw out these Moderators whom we now know for certain we cannot trust.
Oh, and the Warning I was given was rather peculiar. It said that the Rules would not be applied againt "friends" but only against people with whom they have a problem. Selective Justice, or I should say, Targeted Retribution. It does not seem like very fair and equitable treatment, but I could hardly expect more from these moderators, given their general direction of behavior and what they've shown of the aptitudes.
Re: We Can’t Believe These People
Re: leo's post:
I honestly cannot see the problem with people endorsing Casteneda's writings. Sure he made some (a lot) of things up, but he got things right too. Many lucid dreamers from back in the day (probably some here) benefited from his advice - for example his method of knowing you are dreaming by looking at your hands. Works for me, probably worked for people back then too. Noone is exposed to that idea through Casteneda anymore, but noone back when he was writing had access to forums like this. You may not agree with how he chose to make money, but you can't deny he has been of some help to some people.
You bring up the problem of a "culture of lies" here at dreamviews, suggesting it is such a problem we should have to take an honesty oath. How you took the leap from Casteneda to this is beyond me, but anyway. You say we should no sensationalisation, no exaggeration. Yet both are usually subjectively viewed. You see your post as an expose, others might see it as sensationalism. Certainly that leap from Casteneda --> "culture of lies" is an exaggeration.
This brings up the problem of moderation - who will objectively rate these subjective posts and find some wanting? What will the criteria be? "I can lucid dream for 5 hours straight!" is not necessarily a false post, perhaps the poster is uninformed about the objective/subjective time difference while dreaming. Disciplening them for it would create a hostile environment of this forum.
But of course some people lie. As you said, "I can lucid dream every 5 minutes" is a plain lie. Anyone who stays here for more than 20 minutes should be able to tell that. Why is it a problem if these people delude themselves? Can you not just post - "no you cant, [reason]". Again, disciplening people for these lies brings up some problems. Some claims, when they are originally made, seem so far out they are a lie - "I can control my dreams!" anyone? Stopping sensationalist claims is stopping learning.
Hopefully people are able to discern between truth and lies, and when they cant hopefully people can engage in sensible, mature discourse. Take this thread for example. On a heavily moderated forum this would have been up for 2 minutes before deletion. Now we can have a discussion and hopefully work out your problems. And before you say something like:
Quote:
...my posts were ‘back-paged’ to the unread sections (perhaps you’ve seen them by mistake when you wanted to click on something else), and then I was warned that I would be banned for bucking the ‘Party Line’. [/b]
One wonders if you have ever been to a moderated forum before. You see these nice headings for each section? One of the jobs of the moderators is to try put discussions in their correct section. As interesting as accusations of ethics and evil are, they belong in extendede discussion or philosophy. Your thread had not fit into general dreaming since page 1.
And for the record: branding people you don't agree with evil doesn't make a good discussion
-spoon
Re: We Can’t Believe These People
Wow. Long one ... :)
Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>
Quote:
The most important consideration when evaluating Subjective Phenomena is the Intellectual Integrity and Honesty of those giving their accounts. *When once we find a Culture that glorifies in Sensationalism that is divorced from all appreciation for the Truth, then we have entered a Sci-Fi Page, a Fantasy Page, but definitely NOT a page where we can hope to gain any Real Insights or discover what we can trust are any Real Possibilities.[/b]
Agreed. Well said as well :)
Quote:
Originally posted by Extract from the forum rules@
All opinions, techniques, and methods posted at this forum are the sole responsibility of the author of said posts Dreamviews makes no effort to verify any of these postings for correctness, efficacy, or safety. Please use your own judgment when following any suggestions that are posted here. *
The moderators are not here to call people liars or saints.
<!--QuoteBegin-spoon
Hopefully people are able to discern between truth and lies, and when they cant hopefully people can engage in sensible, mature discourse. Take this thread for example. On a heavily moderated forum this would have been up for 2 minutes before deletion. Now we can have a discussion and hopefully work out your problems.
[...]And for the record: branding people you don't agree with evil doesn't make a good discussion
Agreed :D
Re: We Can’t Believe These People
Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Oh, and the Warning I was given was rather peculiar. It said that the Rules would not be applied againt \"friends\" but only against people with whom they have a problem.
You little liar. The rules state:
Quote:
Originally posted by DV Rules
Obviously we'll use discretion in regards to policing this because joking around between friends is certainly permitted. If you have a legitimate complaint about another user, please contact a moderator or administrator.
I have yet to find anything you've said to be \"joking around with friends\" AND I have yet to see you take these matters up with the staff via PMs only, as your flaming seems to be quite prominant in view of the public. :shakehead2:
Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Selective Justice...etc
I just have to laugh when people bring up politics in forums as if we're running a democracy here. Don't like the way things are run? Tough turkey tits, leave or start your own forum. Otherwise learn to let the things you don't like just roll off your back. Then you'll have more fun here. :)
ALL that being said....you're clearly a smart and well educated dude. Let's call a truce and start over (I know, probably not possible after we've all flamed you, but a girl can dream can't she?).
http://www.pushby.com/ian/archives/hug.jpg
I laugh at my own stupidity everyday. It's what keeps me rollin.
Re: We Can’t Believe These People
Quote:
Originally posted by spoon
Re: leo's post:
I honestly cannot see the problem with people endorsing Casteneda's writings. Sure he made some (a lot) of things up, but he got things right too. -spoon
It is an Ethical Problem.
This was a Research Anthropologist who told his University he was out in the field and continued to draw pay while he hid away at home to write fiction which he then presented to a Popular Publishing House as genuine anthropological field research.
Some of us on this page are College Educated. Certainly those with no Higher Education have not the sense of the integrity which we would expect from our University Professors. But those of us who are Educated feel a betrayal when one of our own has betrayed the Truth so thouroughly. Intellectual Honesty cannot be as cavalier as Professional Wrestling.
Yes, the Moderation of This Page, used your same Argument, that some of these writing seemed to conform to what we know to be True. But this is to sugar-coat a turd. where do we know where to draw the line. Is one sentence out of ten true, or two our of ten. One simply does not know. the only thing we can count upon is our own Experience. So if we are reduced to our own Experience, what do we need his books for anyway. Again, we find that the UnEducated like the books as entertainment -- Carlos presents himself as a clown, and he presents Don Juan as something of a clever witty Hero. If only there were pictures, I'm sure the series of books would have been as popular as Harry Potter. But there is nothing Intellectual in those books, anything True that is, that can't be found in honest scholarly works.
Then we must consider how practical and useful Honesty is. If we know that we can rely upon the Truth of what a person says, then we know that what he purports to have happened is POSSIBLE FOR ANYBODY. As soon as that person seems to espouse Lies or Liars, what happens to this implicit Trust?
You see, I am possessed of a Wonderful Knowledge which I cannot associate with any Lie. Back many years ago I had a Dream in common with another person. I have written about it many time. Because two people had one dream, it shows that Dreams are an Objective Reality -- that Dreaming is Real. It shows the Reality of some basis for Extrasensory Perception. It opens the door to great Possibilities, which coud give many people new to Dreaming a great deal of Hope, BUT ONLY IF THEY COULD BELIEVE IT TRUE. Yet the Moderation of this Page actively campaigns for the endorcement of a notorious Liar.
Credibility is our best friend, and intellectual dishonesty is our worst enemy.
so if you say you don't know what's wrong with lying, then you haven't thought about it long enough.... or you should apply to be a Moderator on This Page.
