Connection between testosterone-related behavior, Nietzsche's Master Morality and Conservatism?

I want to stress that I'm trying here to boil down the essence of what characterizes 2 very different and opposing trends in human thought/behavior - and no actual political party is purely one or the other. Probably calling them Liberal and Conservative is misleading... but I'm at a loss for what terms might work better.

This is similar to trying to define what are masculine and feminine traits or characteristics - when of course everyone has some of both in them in reality - nobody is purely masculine or purely feminine.

What I'm interested in for the sake of this discussion is those pure essences distilled down... what tendencies define liberalism and conservatism in their most pure forms. The political parties of course have elements of both mixed in.

When you boil it down to the true meanings, liberal is supposed to be liberty and equal rights. While conservative means to try to keep things as they are. In the US(and this makes a big difference in where you are), the old fashion values and the founding of the country was based on liberty and equal rights. Which means both are the same thing.

It isn't like liberal means freedom, and conservative means control. If you wanted to put them on a line it isn't really left and right, its more like left and up, which is why comparing them as opposites give weird results. Freedom and old fashion are not opposing in any real sense. Especially since our country was founded on freedom.

You would probably do better with something like totalitarianism vs anarchy. People will often not admit they are for totalitarian government however, even when they are promoting huge taxes and excessive government control.

I still don't think you're grasping that I'm talking about abstractions here.

You seem either unable or unwilling to let go of the political meanings of the terms. Forget about that!!!

Think about the core values of people who are extremely liberal and people who are extremely conservative. What are the beliefs and traits that characterize them? One way to really observe this is to look at how each makes fun of the other... this is a way to see an exaggerated version of what one side hates about the other.

Here:

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SHORT JOKES ABOUT LIBERALS

Question – What is the difference between a liberal and a puppy?
Answer -A puppy stops whining after it grows up.

Question – What is the only thing worse than an incompetent liberal President?
Answer -A competent liberal President.

Question – Who was the first liberal Democrat?
Answer -Christopher Columbus. He left not knowing where he was going,got there not knowing where he was,left there not knowing where he’d been and did it all on borrowed money.

Q: How many liberals does it take to change a light Bulb?
A: At least ten, as they will need to have a discussion about whether or not the light bulb exists. Even if they can agree upon the existence of the light bulb they still may not change it to keep from alienating those who might use other forms of light.

Q:How many liberals does it take to change a light bulb?
A:None. Liberals wouldn’t actually change the light bulb, but they would show compassion for it by talking a lot about how terrible it is in the dark and more funding is needed to improve dim, 60 watt bulbs up to bright and productive 100 watt bulbs.

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Ok, I can't find a similar page of jokes about conservatives, but you get the point. Notice these anti-liberal jokes emphasize that liberals are compassionate and caring to a fault, weak and whining, or totally indecisive (sense of direction) and the fact that conservatives think that's funny and contemptible says a lot about the conservative mindset. It means conservatives value strength and decisiveness.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Well, you're the only one who does.

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Well what do you consider being 'open-minded' Becuase I always assumed I fall into that category. It seems that open-minded is jsut slang for liberal, and closed-minded is just slang for conservative when this isn't the case.

Look, we already know you refuse to acknowledge your close-mindedness. Everyone else on the board who has read your posts knows you're close-minded, and the fact that you so stubbornly refuse to admit to it only strengthens my point!

Have you ever changed your viewpoints one iota due to conversation here on the board with people who disagree with you? Not from what I've seen.

They believe the same thing though. At extreme levels both conservatives and liberals want to use force to impose their values on he population at large. Conservatives want to use force to make sure everyone acts morally and liberals want to use force to make sure everyone shares economically.

I know they have different goals, but you brought up the master and slave morality thing. I admit I don't know a lot about that but i looked it up and it appears to be talking about methods more than final goals. When you look at the methods of conservative and liberals, the methods are identical, which is using big government to force everyone into doing what you want.

So you have two master type groups with differing opinions on the end result they would like, they both use very aggressive style methods however, where the ends justify the means.

Darkmatters: Yes, I used to be a liberal, and due to conversation with people i disagreed with, changed my view more than just 1 iota.

You were probably fairly young and undecided on a lot of issues at the time. Most young people consider themselves liberal. I'd say you already had the seeds within you to be conservative and those seeds just hadn't been properly watered yet.


But again - the discussion is about the ideals of liberalism and conservatism, and I've several times now acknowledged that people don't usually fall completely within either ideal. So your arguments are irrelevant.

But that makes me open minded, most young liberals i know are staunchly entrenched with their views and wouldn't move 1 iota. I wasn't that young when I became a conservative, and I wasn't undecided at all. It seems you can only be open minded if you are willing to consider liberal viewpoints, and not the other way around.

Ok, so you feel that the study was flawed. Noted.

You're still arguing for your own individual beliefs, and not tendencies of conservatives in general. So maybe you don't fit the overall mold for conservative. That doesn't affect a conversation about the abstractions of pure conservatism and pure liberalism.

I can say that I'm a man but I have traits that are considered feminine. That doesn't negate the ideal of what are considered masculine and feminine traits... it simply means that individual people don't conform completely to the ideals.

I was asking why you think i'm closed minded, but like everyone, anytime I make anypoint ever, you're just avoiding it,because you're a closed minded bigot and you know im right

Just gonna throw this out there. If conservatives are defined by their reluctance to change the structure of the (American) government from its primordial origins (hence the popularity of statism among conservatives and well hence the name conservative), then wouldn't by definition they be considered close-minded?

Also for a conservative you sure are a whiny pussy liberal. (no offense ThatPerson) Im just giving you a hard time.

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Originally Posted by Thatperson

I was asking why you think i'm closed minded, but like everyone, anytime I make anypoint ever, you're just avoiding it,because you're a closed minded bigot and you know im right

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... Which is completely off topic. This thread is not about how open-minded Thatperson is. I'm avoiding answering your question because all it would do is derail the topic. Start your own thread if that's what you want to talk about!

Thatperson,

Africa for Africans. Asia for Asians. Europe for everyone. What does this mean?

If one is either extremely or even averagely conservative or liberal, would that not make one automatically less open minded, on average? The further from the middle you get, the less likely you are to be open to ideas from either side. You seem to view the political spectrum, from left to right, as open minded to close minded. I see it more as close minded to open minded to close minded. During junior high and right up until about freshman year I was more conservative, but during high school and up through now I am much more liberal. Having been friends and family with people on both sides, I can say that my concept on the open mindedness of the spectrum is backed up by a lot of observation. My father, for instance, claims to be libertarian, but in truth is very conservative. Every time he watches Fox or CNN, he usually shouts at the TV about the "damn liberals." My friend's fiancee is very liberal, and doesn't care what conservative republicans have to say because "they're all pompous asses." In both cases, the othersides' viewpoints are completely cast aside for totally irrational, and in many cases, undeserved causes (it's all the damn liberals fault vs. all conservatives are pompous asses).

So, what does having more testosterone have to do with being more conservative? I think having more testosterone, if it had any major impact, would make you more likely to go to either of the opposite ends of the political spectrum, or in essence further from the middle. I've seen both sides not give two shits about the facts because the facts are coming from the other side, I've seen both sides be stubborn and bullheaded. So, the real question is how is testosterone related to open-mindedness or, in the realm of politics, how in the middle you are?

Damn, now those are very good points!!!

My initial reaction was "Hey it's not me who said conservatives are close-minded, it's the study!"... but I'd better double-check that... I might have sort of added that on myself.

My secondary reaction is that extreme liberals might begin to demonstrate traits that according to the study are considered conservative. I do believe the most sensible position is somewhere near the middle, probably merging aspects of both sides, and that extremism is to blame for a lot of problems.

But this is good stuff that deserves further pondering.

My third reaction - there are other factors that can make a person stubborn and bullheaded... especially when engaged in an argument or debate. These situations have the tendency to polarize people. I think it's only natural and completely human for a strongly liberal person to get riled up and angry at a strongly conservative person... this doesn't necessarily reflect the ideals on either side but only human behavior when under stress. It still seems that, even if individual liberals are prone to anger and aggressive behavior they still believe in the principles of compassion for all including minorities and even your own enemies, which runs counter to what conservatives believe in. Just as a white conservative might have friends who are minorities but still believe generally that minorities don't deserve the same rights as whites.

Also, let's not forget that anger tends to raise testosterone levels temporarily.

But I will think about it more.

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Greenhavoc on the other hand - very conservative attitude toward women, and I think I got some testosterone on me just looking at his picture!! :lol:

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that's only because i'm online, in the real word i'm shy around boobs. grody

Lol I don't know, you look like a manly man to me, ya hairy bastard! :cheeky:

Oh guys, all this manliness is getting me hot and bothered, lets take off our clothes and talk about Nietzsche (while lifting weights). Especially you greenhavoc.

Nietzsche was so manly look at that stash
http://www.iep.utm.edu/wp-content/me...he-274x300.jpg

(I Liked that cause it was funny... not cause I agree... :lol:)

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Originally Posted by Darkmatters

(I Liked that cause it was funny... not cause I agree... :lol:)

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I see. But you are still taking off your clothes right?

Ok I'm sorry I screwed this thread over and for that I am very sorry. No more off topic from me.

Oh of course... I'm naked right now!!

I think a thread like this needs a dose of humor every now and then.

someone start a manly man thread, post photos of manly man stuff.
here's our theme song: Orgazmo - Now You're A Man

:cowbell:

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Originally Posted by Thatperson

Darkmatters, why on earth am I the most close minded on the board? I consider myself very open minded. What do you actually mean by open minded?

I always assumed open-minded meant willing to consider ideas that are not your own openly without prejudice. I wouldn't say I'm resistant to change per se, in the 1950's I would have been resistant to change, but now we are in 2012 I'm up for quite a lot of change. change is not always good, because if ain't broke don't fix it. However 2012 is quite broke and does need fixing.

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You can't be conservative AND open minded. It's an oxymoron. Conservative means wanting to stick to the "old ways". If you're really open minded, you're liberal.
Which means you're willing to accept new ways of doing things.

I'm neither "excessively manly" nor "excessively feminine." I'm more of a middle-of-the-road male.
I'm a libertarian, but technically that would make me "liberal" in the classical sense; since many libertarian ideas are staunchly opposed by all of those in our government, "conservatives" and "liberals" alike. They are "progressive" things like small government, legalized drugs, marriage equality, etc.

Is it the person's brain that makes someone conservative, or is it their conservatism/liberalism that help develop their brain?

The majority of people follow politically from their parents, even though there is always the occasional "rebel" to the family's political views... Although that could also be stemmed from the brain. It's an interesting subject (just my thoughts.)