The Trayvon Martin Case...

Ok, so I'm not sure how many of you had heard about the case of 17 year old Trayvon Martin, who was gunned down by a self-appointed 'neighborhood watch leader', in his father's neighborhood, recently. This took place in the town right 'next door' to the town I grew up in, and in fact, the girl Mary Cutcher than has been on the news talking about it was a friend of mine in High School. If you're not familiar with the incident, it went something like this:

Last month, a 17-year-old, black male was walking back to his father's neighborhood, at 7:30pm, after having gone to the store to get candy and a drink. When he got back to the neighborhood, the 'neighborhood watch leader' called the police and told them that there was a 'suspicious black male' walking around the neighborhood. He uttered a few words over the phone which give the impression of having been racial slurs (but we can't get a clear tape to prove or disprove that). He began to follow the young man (against the direction of the police dispatcher) and ended up getting into an altercation with the boy, which resulted in the boy being shot to death during a scuffle between the two. The shooter, George Zimmerman, is claiming self-defense. Records of the boy's last phone call to his girlfriend state that Trayvon (concerned for his own well-being, as it seems to me) was telling his girlfriend that he was being followed by a strange man, and attempted to walk away quickly, before he was chased down by the man and the altercation started.

Justice Dept. launches probe into shooting death of Trayvon Martin

There were witnesses to this shooting, which have come forward to testify that the unarmed boy did nothing wrong, and that the self-defense explanation of the shooter does not hold up at all. And yet, the Sanford Police Department has refused to arrest, or even investigate the actions of George Zimmerman, clearing him (without trial) of any wrong-doing, and defending him tooth and nail as having done no wrong, himself, in having tracked down, confronted and shot this 17 year old boy who did absolutely nothing wrong or illegal.

Right now, Trayvon's family is having one hell of a battle, simply trying to get a serious inquiry into the actions of Zimmerman - one that would (and should) result in the arrest of Zimmerman, if for no other reason than to subject him to a fair trial. If you would, please sign the following petition (which has apparently become the fastest growing petition in Internet history) so that any and all voices in opposition of this blatant lapse in justice can be heard in some way:

https://www.change.org/petitions/pro...trayvon-martin

As of now, the Sanford Police Department (the same one that I'd posted about, a short while back, when an officer made a false report about a black man 'dragging him through the parking lot by his car' - which never happened, according to the surveillance tape) has completely refused to follow up on this story, effectively clearing Zimmerman of any allegations, and coming forth to defend his integrity as 'a college graduate', in an attempt to push this situation into obscurity as quickly as possible. (It looks like they are just starting to reveal that the SPD Cheif has had a 'no confidence' vote against him - whatever that means, so hopefully this will go right to the source...)

In my opinion, Zimmerman should be behind bars. At the very least, he should be tried in court. Not sure how everyone else here sees it, but I figured I'd spread the story. If nothing else, please sign the petition so, at the least, we can be sure that George Zimmerman has his day in court.

your observations are pretty much indisputable. this was a murder and a hate crime.

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Reading about Trayvon Martin’s killing and am beyond saddened, sickened, and outraged at the continuation of state-sanctioned killing of black and brown youth. I wonder, however, if there another way to push for justice for Trayvon, without appealing to the prison-industrial complex as a means of retribution. Even if the state does prosecute his killer, what does it do to our communities in the long run when we ask for more surveillance, stronger penalization, more brutal justice? In the end, whose bodies will be most subjected to the PIC?

As we demand Justice for Trayvon, I wonder if we can keep the call for prison abolition and real social transformation in mind.


A few resources on the prison abolition movement and the prison-industrial complex’s disproportionate targeting of communities of color, especially women and queer/trans people of color:

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one of my favorite blogs writes about the subject here

racism is still very very real, it's not rare and this was not an isolated incident. it never is.

It sounds like the town of Sanford should just go ahead and make being black illegal so this sort of thing isn't a problem going forward....

I saw this on the news last night. Very pathetic case of the police blatantly hiding a bigot from the masses. How this still happens in the modern age of information and non-segregation baffles me.

I don't understand what reason the police could have for not investigating this properly. It's pretty self evident that when someone who's unarmed is gunned down in "self defence", it needs to be investigated.

It's simple. It's implicitly illegal to be black in Sanford. So, according to the implicit law, a black person walking in a white neighborhood is breaking the law and is hence behaving in a threatening and illegal manner.

If they just went ahead and explicitly made being black illegal then not only would all confusion vanish but the justice department would remove the mayor and city council and take over to prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future.

Explicit is almost always better than implicit.

I heard about this a few days ago. It is so tragic! I hate hearing about young people, like me, getting killed. We all have so many hopes and dreams. I agree, this Zimmerman guy should be tried and put in jail. I just wish racism would go away..

I don't mean to start a race war over here, but am I the only one who thinks that George doesn't really look... white? (Zimmerman kind of sounds like a Jewish name though).

http://www.phawker.com/wp-content/up..._120318_wg.jpg

Looks hispanic. That explains everything. Move along everybody, nothing to see here.

It still amazed that this guy hasn't been arrested yet.

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Originally Posted by louie54

It still amazed that this guy hasn't been arrested yet.

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I'm not.

NRB.com

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Originally Posted by no-Name

without appealing to the prison-industrial complex as a means of retribution.

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lolwat

I can only presume 'justice without prisons' refers to mob lynching. No thanks.

Looks like the Sanford Police chief has "temporarily' stepped down. I love the way they keep putting the emphasis on 'temporarily.' They are going to try to let this blow over without any real action being taken. Part of me wonders what other examples of corruption they'd find in that place, if they did a thorough sweep of the precinct, and if his 'temporary stepping down' was in simply trying to distance himself from the situation, before more of the spotlight was placed on him then there already was. :-?

He said it was to avoid being a distraction. My feeling is that "temporarily" stepping down is nothing more than a distraction....

A little facebook digging reveals Trayvon was a drug dealer at least on a small scale. Though his page has been taken down i saw one good post on his wall asking where he was because "nigga need plant". Other interesting facts include pictures showing he for some reason had gold teeth.

Im not supporting zimmerman, but people making trayvon out to be some angelic kid seem misled at best. I think he was a thug, based on his twitter and facebook.

Doesnt justify murder, but it is easy to get swept away in a storm of anti-racism and paint him as a saint or martyr. He wasnt.


We dont know what happened. But i think everyone jumping to the concLusion that an innocent boy has been killed in a vicious hate crime are idiots.

That means most of you

So selling an illegally illegal plant and having gold teeth makes one a thug?

Photos tHrowing gang signs, incomprehensible gangspeak writing online, dealing illegal drugs, yeah, for me thats a thug.

Maybe im just old fashioned and those things are normal now.

George Bush was a thug. Large shareholders in oil companies are thugs. Some kid on the street hustling twenty sacks is not a thug. Do you know what the "gang" signs meant. You admitted that his writing was incomprehensible so I wont even ask you about that. Do you have any evidence that he behaved in such a manner as to intentionally harm or intimidate a fellow human being? If not then you shouldn't call him a thug.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

A little facebook digging reveals Trayvon was a drug dealer at least on a small scale. Though his page has been taken down i saw one good post on his wall asking where he was because "nigga need plant". Other interesting facts include pictures showing he for some reason had gold teeth.

Im not supporting zimmerman, but people making trayvon out to be some angelic kid seem misled at best. I think he was a thug, based on his twitter and facebook.

Doesnt justify murder, but it is easy to get swept away in a storm of anti-racism and paint him as a saint or martyr. He wasnt.


We dont know what happened. But i think everyone jumping to the concLusion that an innocent boy has been killed in a vicious hate crime are idiots.

That means most of you

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okay, he was a drug dealer.
this is still a hate crime. it would not have happened if trayvon were white.
it's not an isolated incident, either. there is still plenty of inbred racism, a lot of it extreme and extroverted.

this incident is a good example we can use to show how rampant it is.

Still want to know what 'justice without prisons' means.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Still want to know what 'justice without prisons' means.

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so do I. I was definitely not fully lucid while writing that, and I have no idea what I meant. I'mma stick to it though, because I prefer social justice over the court system. non-violent, necessarily.

I think that 'justice without prisons' is bullshit. However, In the US prisons are more often than not profit making operations. As profit making operations, their primary goal is profit. So references to the 'prison-industrial complex' are accurate. They are not interested in rehabilitation and many people come out of them more violent than they where when they entered. They perpetuate the problem.

So if 'prison' is taken to refer to the sort of thing that currently exists in the US then I am all for 'justice without prisons'. I would prefer some other sort of place to send violent people so that they can either be rehabilitated if at all possible or humanely separated from the general populace if not.

If prison is precisely such a place then of course 'justice without prisons' is a dubious notion.

The point is that 'punishment' is a useless concept that does more harm than good. It may deter sane people from things like murder but sane people don't murder anyways. It's the people that have been misshapen by living in an environment radically different from that which evolution created them for that become violent criminals and punishment does nothing but reinforce their sense of not belonging and the feeling that the world is against them.

The way to deal with a violent crime is to make sure that the perpetrator doesn't do it again, not to place blame and seek retribution. Retribution is neither synonymous with justice nor useful.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I think that 'justice without prisons' is bullshit. However, In the US prisons are more often than not profit making operations. As profit making operations, their primary goal is profit. So references to the 'prison-industrial complex' are accurate. They are not interested in rehabilitation and many people come out of them more violent than they where when they entered. They perpetuate the problem.

So if 'prison' is taken to refer to the sort of thing that currently exists in the US then I am all for 'justice without prisons'. I would prefer some other sort of place to send violent people so that they can either be rehabilitated if at all possible or humanely separated from the general populace if not.

If prison is precisely such a place then of course 'justice without prisons' is a dubious notion.

The point is that 'punishment' is a useless concept that does more harm than good. It may deter sane people from things like murder but sane people don't murder anyways. It's the people that have been misshapen by living in an environment radically different from that which evolution created them for that become violent criminals and punishment does nothing but reinforce their sense of not belonging and the feeling that the world is against them.

The way to deal with a violent crime is to make sure that the perpetrator doesn't do it again, not to place blame and seek retribution. Retribution is neither synonymous with justice nor useful.

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whoop whoop there it is
that's absolutely perfect

After listening to the tape of Zimmerman talking to the cops before running and killing Trayvon, I have come to believe that this was not a hate crime, but rather, a crime of incredible, incredible stupidity. That said, I think he's guilty of murder.

Edit: Also, hatecrimes are bullshit. They're fucking thoughtcrimes.

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Originally Posted by no-Name

your observations are pretty much indisputable. this was a murder and a hate crime.

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This guy over reacted, clearly, but if the suspicious boy would have been white, then would this have still been a hate crime? I despise people like you.

Let me show you what a real hate crime looks like

Can you imagine what would happen if a group of white people, in this day and age, put up a dead or alive bounty for a black guy?

How bout a group of Muslims doing the same thing to anyone?

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

This guy over reacted, clearly, but if the suspicious boy would have been white, then would this have still been a hate crime? I despise people like you.

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no, it wouldn't. trayvons skin color is what makes it a hate crime.

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Let me show you what a real hate crime looks like

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this is a bounty. it has less to do with zimmermans race, and more to do with zimmerman having killed a young black man.
no, I don't agree with having a bounty on someones head. yes, I do think this is more justified than the events leading to this thread, which include zimmerman killing a man based on his skin color, and zimmerman not being in jail because of his skin color.

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Can you imagine what would happen if a group of white people, in this day and age, put up a dead or alive bounty for a black guy?

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they would be charged with hate crimes, just like zimmerman.
no, wait, they wouldn't. because they're white.

anyways. you're going to deny the systematic racism against people of color, and instead claim that whites are the real victims. I will be angry and upset so I will concede now.
I cannot refute your mind-blowing evidence that we live in a world where everyone is hated equally, and blacks are just complaining because they're unlucky or are prejudiced against whites.
thanks

Zimmerman isn't in jail because he had a license to carry the gun and in Florida you can shoot someone if they attack/threaten you.

This wasn't a hate crime, it sounds more like stupidity coupled with more stupidity.

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Originally Posted by no-Name

no, it wouldn't. trayvons skin color is what makes it a hate crime.

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All crime is hate related, traitor.

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this is a bounty. it has less to do with zimmermans race, and more to do with zimmerman having killed a young black man.

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It has everything to do with his race. He is a WHITE man, being targeted by BLACK men because he killed another BLACK man. When is the last time you heard of a BLACK man posting a bounty for another BLACK man, wanted dead or alive for killing a WHITE man?

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no, I don't agree with having a bounty on someones head. yes, I do think this is more justified than the events leading to this thread, which include zimmerman killing a man based on his skin color, and zimmerman not being in jail because of his skin color.

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Yeah, nothing quite like a good ol' lynching to suppress more of that white guilt that seems to plague what 'real' white society is all about.

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they would be charged with hate crimes, just like zimmerman.
no, wait, they wouldn't. because they're white.

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That's your argument here, race?

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anyways. you're going to deny the systematic racism against people of color

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No, I'm not.

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and instead claim that whites are the real victims

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Are you fucking retarded?

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I cannot refute your mind-blowing evidence that we live in a world where everyone is hated equally

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I don't recall saying this, or even thinking it. As a matter of fact, hate is nowhere near equal. lol!!!

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and blacks are just complaining because they're unlucky or are prejudiced against whites.
thanks

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Oh, that's what I was doing? You, Mrs, have lost your fucking mind and I sincerely hope your response was in jest.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

incomprehensible gangspeak writing online

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... lol

Are there still people out there who haven't caught up with slang and Ebonics yet?

What he did was not even remotely legal, not even remotely self defense. Only a racist judge would see it that way. Florida's self defense laws still don't change the facts of the incident and the fact is the boy was unarmed, and the man did not gun him down on his own private property. That man needs to be charged with murder.

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

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Are you a member of Stormfront by any chance?
I'm not going to attack you, I'm genuinely curious.

The question of if it's a hate crime or not is largely irrelevant. The point is that the police didn't persecute and, so far as I know, haven't provided a good reason for that.

Someone just needs to kill that douchebag and claim he was threatening them. Then kill the prosecutor that turned down the case and claim he was also being threatening. Then kill like 4 or 5 racist cops. See how long they keep that law.

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Originally Posted by louie54

Are you a member of Stormfront by any chance?
I'm not going to attack you, I'm genuinely curious.

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No. Why do you ask?

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Originally Posted by no-Name

no, it wouldn't. trayvons skin color is what makes it a hate crime.

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

All crime is hate related, traitor.

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

No. Why do you ask?

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I'm just trying to figure out why you called him a traitor.

Because he is incapable of spotting his own bullshit in this thread. He has turned on himself in favor of social acceptance. Traitor.

How has he turned on himself? By defending the right another human being has to walk down a street wearing a hoodie?

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Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

How has he turned on himself? By defending the right another human being has to walk down a street wearing a hoodie?

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Yeah man, that's it.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

A little facebook digging reveals Trayvon was a drug dealer at least on a small scale. Though his page has been taken down i saw one good post on his wall asking where he was because "nigga need plant". Other interesting facts include pictures showing he for some reason had gold teeth.

Im not supporting zimmerman, but people making trayvon out to be some angelic kid seem misled at best. I think he was a thug, based on his twitter and facebook.

Doesnt justify murder, but it is easy to get swept away in a storm of anti-racism and paint him as a saint or martyr. He wasnt.


We dont know what happened. But i think everyone jumping to the concLusion that an innocent boy has been killed in a vicious hate crime are idiots.

That means most of you

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Oh come on! You ":think" he is a a thug?

This is his real picture

https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net...49213158_n.jpg

This is not a thug, I've been in jail with real thugs. This child is not. You really can't see deeper than appearances? Just because he was wearing a hoodie doesn't make him a thug, and throwing up gang signs ( which he didn't ) doesn't make you a thug either. All the young kids do that now-a-days, it's just a trend.

I just don't get it, you just judge and stereotype like the rest. Even if he was a thug, he didn't deserve to get shot. Nobody deserves to die, not even murderers. All guns should be banned, even police shouldn't have them.

The police told him not to follow Trayvon and he did it anyway. Zimmerman was trying to be a freelance vigilante, walked up to Trayvon and started fucking with him. Read the reports and youtube police phone calls.

All of that aside, even if they did tussle, the guy was still a fuckin coward for pulling out a gun on a child 11 years younger than him and 100 pounds lighter.

There's no way this is going to fly, people are on twitter retweeting zimmermans address as we speak. This was most definitely a hate crime.

Here's another picture of him wearing a Hollister t-shirt.

http://www.opednews.com/populum/uplo...20120321-5.jpg

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Originally Posted by louie54

Here's another picture of him wearing a Hollister t-shirt.

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please don't paint him as a martyr or a helpless child. as many others have said, hordes of people are crowding around this case saying "he was only a child" and being sympathetic solely because of his age.
we can't do that. we have to be aware that this happens to people that aren't kids. that there are many crimes similar to this one that happen because of race, gender, and sexual orientation.
we can use trayvon as an example, but we can't defend him solely because he was young.

even if you didn't mean to paint it that way, it's still an appeal to emotion and is largely irrelevant to the thread.

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Originally Posted by no-Name

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I was sort of adding on to Majestic's post.

Black guy wearing a Hollister =/= thug.


Edit: I realize I could be... wrong. But he still doesn't look like the "thug" type, at least not in the pictures we provided.

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Originally Posted by louie54

I was sort of adding on to Majestic's post.

Black guy wearing a Hollister =/= thug.


Edit: I realize I could be... wrong. But he still doesn't look like the "thug" type, at least not in the pictures we provided.

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awesome. more stereotyping.

please stop.

I didn't intend to stereotype, and I never suggested that he would be a thug if he wore a different shirt.
I'm just trying to say that he looks like a normal kid. Not that I or anyone else here would know anyway.

I sort of agree with louie here in that the only possible way someone could suppose Trayvon was up to no good is because they were racist and assumed all black people are up to no good. Nothing in his clothing appeared to fit the stereotypical criminal.

What do you think of this?:



Is he saying "fucking coons" or "fucking punks". I don't hear a "pu" sound.

Definitely sounds like punks to me, not that I think it makes a lick of difference. This guy needs to be charged with murder. It's obviously a "hate crime" whatever that is, but murder is also murder. Hate crimes are typically meant to enhance assault charges when people gang up on others.

The institutional racism that says police should turn a blind eye when blacks are killed is far more troubling than the fact that the neighborhood watch guy might of been a racist. While some guy killing another may be an isolated incident, the fact he got off so easily without a real investigation shows a huge biased by the police and likely means racism by the police is a common occurrence. In fact if the guy got a free pass with murder, there are probably hundreds or thousands of other cases that were mishandled as well.

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Originally Posted by louie54

What do you think of this?

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...it sounds like the wind in the mic.

Exorcists do this too. They record static in a house and then find bits of the static which sound like threatening vocalisations. It's the observer-expectancy effect.

As most of you have noticed, this debate over Florida's ridiculous law (Jon Stewart said, "yeah, it's like those signs we have in the New York subway, 'if you see something, shoot something'.") is absurd. The 911 tapes clearly show the police instructing him not to follow the kid.

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Originally Posted by Xei

...it sounds like the wind in the mic.

Exorcists do this too. They record static in a house and then find bits of the static which sound like threatening vocalisations. It's the observer-expectancy effect.

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To each his own I guess. Tbh, I really was not convinced that this could have been racially motivated until I heard that clip.

I can't say I'm for sure though since I wasn't there to witness it. But things really aren't looking good for George. I don't know what to think.

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I really was not convinced that this could have been racially motivated until I heard that clip.

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You're joking?

What do you want me to tell you? Like I said, I don't know for sure, but when someone talks about how these 'fucking coons' are always getting away with everything I think that's a red flag.

Is it possible you're hearing what you want to hear?

'Funky goons' makes absolutely sense in the context of this situation, does it? It's still there, though.

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

'Funky goons' makes absolutely sense in the context of this situation, does it? It's still there, though.

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I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong because it seems like everyone is hearing something different. Like Xei said, it could just be the wind.

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Originally Posted by louie54

I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong because it seems like everyone is hearing something different. Like Xei said, it could just be the wind.

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Sorry bout that, Louie. I meant to say that funky goons makes absolutely no sense, but it's still there if that's what someone is trying to hear.

...but this:

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Tbh, I really was not convinced that this could have been racially motivated until I heard that clip.

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...was an epiphany for you, something you've said yourself could be anything?

Oh. Well I meant fucking coons. "Coon" is a derogatory name to describe a black person so if that's what he really said, then I wouldn't be surprised since Trayvon is well, black.

Although I was convinced, I'm not going to look the other way if someone says otherwise. I could be wrong. It's not that I'm wanting to hear it btw.

Some of the pictures I've seen of Trayvon were old pictures of him, around 13, 14 years of age. He had some kind of wicked growth spurt from that time until the age of 17 as he stood 6 feet 2 inches and weighing about 160 lbs. Basically, still a slim guy but he had height. Here are some more recent images of him.




Most recent picture of Zimmerman I can find. He stood at roughly 5.8 or 5.9 weighing 170lbs.



I don't think this was a hate crime incident because I don't think Zimmerman has anything against blacks considering he has a friend that's apparently pretty close to him, who happens to be black.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuUk5xJX-8s

This CCTV video of George video handcuffed arriving at the police station the night of the shooting is extremely interesting. Draw your own conclusions but something seems very suspect in this video. I can't embed this stream because it's secured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-_Qn9ZEj9Q

Ne-Yo, I bet you wrote awesome book reports. Thanks for contributing.

My girlfriend thinks that this whole story is a cover up to distract us from what's going on in politics. That this is a perfect example of Political Science 101. People are shot and killed ever day in America, but how is this story so unique?

She's been fighting with people on Facebook about it.

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People are shot and killed ever day in America, but how is this story so unique?

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Man you were all over this situation's nuts just 2 days ago. lol
Epiphany smiphanhy, eh?

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Originally Posted by louie54

My girlfriend thinks that this whole story is a cover up to distract us from what's going on in politics. That this is a perfect example of Political Science 101. People are shot and killed ever day in America, but how is this story so unique?

She's been fighting with people on Facebook about it.

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Your girlfriend's only half right. The distraction is the hate-crime nature of it. The issue (or an issue at least, we have an embarrassment of riches with regard to issues) is the fact that there are police departments (and this is not the only one) in this country that consider the race of the victim when deciding who to prosecute.

If this was shown to not be racially motivated in the least, that would still not clear the police department of the fact that they are racist in determining what constitutes murder. That's the issue.

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

Man you were all over this situation's nuts just 2 days ago. lol
Epiphany smiphanhy, eh?

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I was talking about my girlfriend, Jacqueline, but I actually have changed my mind at least 3 times since I first heard about it. What I'm saying is that my girlfriend doesn't understand how this case is so unique, so she assumes that this must be a distraction from what's going behind the political curtain.

My view on the other hand, I really don't know what to fucking think. I wasn't there, only George knows what happened.
Yeah there was that clip I posted earlier, but did he really say what a lot of people think? I feel like a hypocrite for changing my mind so much.

I don't know what happened, and I don't think anybody else here does either. Apparently Zimmerman stalked Martin because he supposedly looked unfamiliar and suspicious. Was that much racist? Probably so. Also, Zimmerman apparently stalked Martin although he was told to quit following him. Did Zimmerman talk trash to Martin after following him for a creepy distance? There is a good chance of it. However, a witness said that night that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, beating the shit out of him for a matter of minutes. Zimmerman had a broken nose and a gash on the back of his head as a result of something. Is getting your ass beat for minutes a call for using a gun? It is unless you are the one who attacked the person on top of you first and he was just trying to subdue you in self-defense. Do we know that Zimmerman attacked Martin first? No, we do NOT. Should the situation be investigated further? Absolutely. Should Zimmerman be arrested at this point? Probably not, but it is worth a grand jury analysis.


So, in summary, none of us know the full extent of relevant details of what happened and the issue is far from simple, but there should be more investigation though there is not enough ground for arrest at this point.

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So, in summary, none of us know the full extent of relevant details of what happened and the issue is far from simple, but there should be more investigation though there is not enough ground for arrest at this point.

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CNN, NBC and MSNBC seem to disagree. You guys see the new photos of Zimmerman's bloody head, yet?
*Grins and wonders what's going on in no-name's beautiful mind.

This thread and the news coverage of this case are both just a bunch gossip.

Doctored audio, and visual? Nah, couldn't be.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Zimmerman had a broken nose and a gash on the back of his head as a result of something.

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I believe the jury is still out on that one. I've seen just as much speculation saying that he did as I have seen saying that he didn't. I also think it's very important that - as was explained in one of the last videos someone posted - the lead investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter, due in part to his LACK of physical injuries, but was overruled by the state attorney (aka not an investigator).

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

However, a witness said that night that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, beating the shit out of him for a matter of minutes.

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The funeral director disagrees, based on what he saw while dressing the body.

It's been a circus around here. I had to detour off the highway the other day, on the way to work, because there were SO MANY PEOPLE at the last rally. Traffic was backed up for miles. I was talking to a friend of mine last night, who is very close to the situation and was best friends with the girl whose property this whole thing happened on, whom I knew in school as well. I brought up a growing trend to her, that I'm seeing in a lot of activism over this topic, and I'm finding it really disappointing:

I'm all for the anger and the outrage. I'm all for the protesting and the marching and the shake-up at the Sanford PD, but what I'm seeing way too much of in the activist rhetoric is rushing to call Zimmerman a murderer, and calling the event 'Trayvon's murder', etc. etc. I understand that hearts are on fire because of the incident, but I think rushing to judgement not only sends a bad message about what is really motivating the movement, but it also goes a long way to delegitimizing the argument that lies at the center of the whole thing; that Zimmerman - whether he is guilty of murder or not - deserves to be put on trial.

I also brought up how there is a reason that cops are (supposedly) obligated to write out a full, detailed report whenever they discharge a weapon. Not just whenever they kill someone, but EVERY TIME the weapon is discharged. It is because the fact that they are cops does not (or rather, should not) exhonerate them from being held under some sort of scrutiny for their actions. Just because they are wearing a badge, or operating under the banner of justice doesn't mean they their actions are inherently justifiable, nor should their accounts of what happened go unverified. Zimmerman has basically skipped through this check, with the help of the Sanford PD. With that buffer of time between the incident and the 'temporary stepping-aside' of the Sanford PD chief, the chance of getting a sufficient investigation about what happened would be like trying to examine ground zero after all of the debris has been hurriedly packed up and shipped overseas. It's likely Not Going to Happen.

New witnesses are apparently involved, then. The funeral director, whom I didn't know about, said something extremely relevant. He could be lying, but we cannot assume that he is. If we assume he is telling the truth, we have to assume that the first witness and the police are lying. That is possible too. With that evidence, a lot of people need to be investigated. I think the FBI probably needs to step in now and investigate why the police and the first witness might have gone through so much trouble to deceive. The situation is a major mess now.

Racism is justified. I'm a strong racist, and make no apologies.

How's the gossip going? Any evil twin brothers yet?

,

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

Racism is justified. I'm a strong racist, and make no apologies.

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I like jelly beans. :) ,

can't imagine why this case died down.

NBC News: Charges to be filled against George Zimmerman, the man who shot Trayvon Martin.

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

NBC News: Charges to be filled against George Zimmerman, the man who shot Trayvon Martin.

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2nd Degree Murder

Discuss:

It's on the news now..he showing up for his first court appearance. Lost a lot of weight too.

His lawyer said he's pleading not guilty...he also said that Zimmerman didn't have any money. That's a real problem for him..if he's lucky he'll get a plea bargain manslaughter

I've seen a bit about the killing in the media, but I don't understand why nobody seems to be talking about how horridly corrupt the American justice system looks. It sounds like an endemic culture...

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Originally Posted by Xei

I've seen a bit about the killing in the media, but I don't understand why nobody seems to be talking about how horridly corrupt the American justice system looks. It sounds like an endemic culture...

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It's because, in our culture, there exists just enough divisiveness to keep dissent from being a popular enough opinion as to prove significant. Black/white, conservative/liberal, gay/straight, realist/idealist, Coke/Pepsi... The real evils of our society fall into obscurity, because there is a perpetual counter-balance to every extreme, polarizing or sensationalist claim that can be made. Blacks who think the justice system is fucked are labelled '(reverse)racist'; people who think the rich should pay more in taxes are labelled 'socialist' or 'communist' (whichever is the more popular buzzword at the time); people who try to highlight the corruptibility of government are deemed 'anti-American'. Etc.

Whether you believe this sort of divisiveness is engineered, or if it's just by coincidence, the fact remains that the proponents of each side of every viewpoint can make their stances so attractive (and the people who adopt them are so very malleable) that even though there are plenty of people out there who know how screwed our legal system is (as if the legal system was the only thing that needed fixing), it will never be enough to bring about widespread change... Our modern culture simply isn't drafted to allow that level of popular dissent. There are plenty of people who are talking about how corrupt the American justice system looks. Many of those same people have been saying the same thing for decades. The problem is that nobody is listening to them, because they're too busy tending to their own biases to notice.

Looks like he has O'Mara as his counselor. This will be very interesting when the trail moves forward. I've seen O'Mara's argument strategies before and he's quite capable extremely thorough in his work and highly strategic. Zimmerman looks very frightened but with good reason. Facing a 2nd degree murder charge and the possibility of life in prison is nothing to be happy about. I guess he will get a bond hearing next Thursday. I wonder if the judge will grant it. If he does and Zimmerman bonds out, I'm willing to bet he flees.

And after the beginnings of a serious conversation (the one that this thread should have been from the start), Ne-yo is back in with the gossip.

Ne-yo, do you work for the Illuminati?

if his head swelled, you must post bail!

if he was beat to shit, you must acquit!

© green.inc 2012

You know what pisses me off (and this goes right back to the divisiveness issue that I was talking about)?

Stuff like this:

Big gap between races in U.S. on Trayvon Martin killing | Reuters

Contrast the opening:
"(Reuters) - Americans are deeply divided by race over the killing of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, with 91 percent of African-Americans saying he was unjustly killed, while just 35 percent of whites thought so, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed on Thursday."

With the details:
"...according to the online poll of 1,922 Americans..."

And this is from one of the most 'credible' mainstream media sources out there. They are touting this 'huge racial divide' across America, based solely off of enough people to fill an auditorium. This is why said divisiveness exists. Public opinion is actively swayed by the people who are supposed to be 'informing' us, instead of 'persuading' us. Small problems are made bigger in the public eye, and real issues are swept under the rug. That's just how our media works, and that's why so many Americans either have no clue or a skewed perspective on what's going on today.

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Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

And after the beginnings of a serious conversation (the one that this thread should have been from the start), Ne-yo is back in with the gossip.

Ne-yo, do you work for the Illuminati?

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I'll entertain you PS. Here's my prediction, this is going to play out one of two different ways. Number (1) Zimmerman gets bond granted sometime in the next month which will probably be somewhere in the area of a half million to three quarters of a million bond. Zimmerman is broke but somehow he's going to bond out. Zimmerman flees the country a month before his trial. The FBI catches up to him a few months later and he faces additional charges. Number (2) Zimmerman is denied bond and undergoes a jury trial late winter 2012 The Jury finds him not guilty of murder in the 2nd degree but finds him guilty upon a much lesser charge. The people are angry and frustrated as mass hysteria overwhelms the nation when people take to the streets. The government conducts population control as many people will lose their lives through this ordeal that will last for an extended period of time until order is restored.

Just remember where you heard it first.

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero

.This is why said divisiveness exists. Public opinion is actively swayed by the people who are supposed to be 'informing' us, instead of 'persuading' us. Small problems are made bigger in the public eye, and real issues are swept under the rug. That's just how our media works, and that's why so many Americans either have no clue or a skewed perspective on what's going on today.

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There's more normal people out there than what's being shown. I don't see a divide, at all. I just see stupid people. This is why I poke fun at it every chance I get.

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Originally Posted by greenhavoc

There's more normal people out there than what's being shown. I don't see a divide, at all. I just see stupid people. This is why I poke fun at it every chance I get.

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I'm not particularly talking about a divide in this issue, as much as I'm talking about a divide in almost every major issue across the States. I just hate how the media perpetuates such things, so purposefully.

Since you bring it up, though, you will have to excuse me if I'm not too much of a fan of the 'stupid people' paradigm - especially when it comes to political issues. I tend to see it as a sort of a cop-out for lacking understanding about why some people follow the ideologies that they do (which often has much less to do with being 'stupid' than it does with having been sufficiently persuaded). I understand that this stance doesn't carry with it the comedic value of just being able to call everyone who disagrees with me 'stupid' and making a witty quip about how unintelligent they are, but it's a reasonable sacrifice, I think. :)

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero

I understand that this stance doesn't carry with it the comedic value of just being able to call everyone who disagrees with me 'stupid' and making a witty quip about how unintelligent they are, but it's a reasonable sacrifice, I think. :)

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I think that's an amazing perspective.

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Originally Posted by Phion

I think that's an amazing perspective.

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Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by Oneironaut Zero

...I'm not too much of a fan of the 'stupid people' paradigm - especially when it comes to political issues. I tend to see it as a sort of a cop-out for lacking understanding about why some people follow the ideologies that they do (which often has much less to do with being 'stupid' than it does with having been sufficiently persuaded).

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Often, it's stupidity that allows them to be so easily persuaded. For example, it's been well documented numerous times that Rush Limbaugh makes things up. Yet people still believe him. He contradicts himself and applies double standards almost constantly and yet his fans don't catch it. This is an excellent example. There are a lot of intelligent conservatives but anybody that cites Rush as a source is a moron. Intelligent conservatives don't even cite him as a source.

They may be brilliant in many ways but if we're having a political discussion then they are, within that context, essentially morons and should be discussed as such for the simple reason that their stupidity is a source of power for those that take advantage of it.

For a liberal example, take the people that hated US foreign policy under Bush but are chill with it since Obama moved in.

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I understand that this stance doesn't carry with it the comedic value of just being able to call everyone who disagrees with me 'stupid' and making a witty quip about how unintelligent they are, but it's a reasonable sacrifice, I think. :)

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I understand that citing stupidity where stupidity is due doesn't carry with it the aura of being an accepting, level headed person that pretending that stupid people are anything else does but I think that it's a reasonable sacrifice to attempt to legitimately understand how power operates in this world.

How can you change something if you don't even understand it?