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"Dont wear that condom you're taking away the potential of life"Quote:
Originally Posted by Warheit
"hey look there's a cockroach better not do anything to him becuase that would take away the potential for life"
According to your logic, not finishing a computer capable of complex thoughts would be stopping the potential of life.
so not plants then?Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
Well the word alive has no clear definition, I mean technically a sentient computer is alive. I like to categorize things whether they can reproduce. Plants, viruses and bacteria all fall under this category but they are not conscious or feel or percieve things. Its up to you what you call them but a bacteria still works through chemical reactions so really catalysts could also be called alive etc. Obviously "alive" is an easy word to use but its to basic in this case. I mean nearly noone ever thinks of cutting down a plant and wondering whether it was morally right. If you catch my drift.
Only if it was a girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzrokks
Before the third trimester the baby doesn't have a brain and isn't really alive at all. At around that point however the brain develops and there is some things that show it might feel pain and what not. So if you are going to draw a line where the baby might actually be alive, it should probably be around the time it has a functioning brain.
I don't really feel comfortable with abortions, but I also don't feel comfortable telling people they should ruin their lives for the next 20 years either. As for telling people they should never ever have sex, even while using protection, that doesn't realistically work out.
People say just don't have sex, and they its because they are thinking young people who are not ready but most abortions are done by older people who have children. So you are basically telling the 30 year old mother of two, that is married that she shouldn't have sex with her husband even if she is on the pill and he uses a condom because it isn't 100%.
Sex is a part of life (saying to avoid sex altogether is complete bulls***, I'm sorry), and birth control isn't 100% perfect. So, even if somebody uses birth control responsibly, there's a chance they will conceive. This doesn't make it their fault. These are the people I believe should be able to have an abortion. On the other hand, some people who go around sharing themselves with everyone or who use no protection deserve the consequences of carrying and having a child. Both situations declare lack of prior willingness to have a child, but the former involves stupidity. I think that balances out. :)
I honestly don't see what the deal is with having an abortion. I think we place far too much value on human life. We step on ants and treat animals unfairly, in factory farms, because our economy ensures we don't have enough money for animal products that come from more humane origins. But a baby that hasn't even been born yet? Really?
If there comes a point where I'm not allowed to have an abortion but I still get pregnant (which will be miraculous, given I have no plans on ditching protection), I'd probably kill myself. You can't force a mindset or label on every person and declare it as law, especially in matters like this. It's my body, I could still kill the baby if I wanted to... Even if I endangered myself in the process.
Maybe the real issue is what kind of people get to become parents. After reading this forum I am scared for the future.
^ .. And who gets to decide this? :shadewink:
A roll of the dice.
My sense of compassion does not allow me to feel comfortable with abortion.
Abortion's fine, if someone wants to abort a maybe baby, then by all means. If they didn't want a baby they should've been more careful, but whatever. If I was a woman and I had gotten pregnant, I'd probably abort, I'd be a terrible parent.
My sense of compassion does not allow me to feel comfortable with prohibiting abortion.Quote:
Originally Posted by brokedownheart
I think it is okay with not being comfortable with a lot of things. Some times you got to make tough choices, and they can be uncomfortable but still the right thing to do.
sigh..no my rant is not about abortion. I just love botany. You.......are wrong!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchraptor
Take a potted plant that's nice and green and lay it on its side. That brainless plant bends on itself to continue growing upwards towards the sun instead of sideways.
Stick a seed in the dirt. It doesn't matter if the seed is upright, sideways, quarter-ways or what ever - it always grows its roots down and it always grows the sprout up. Gravity and all.
Plants perceive their environment and act accordingly, this is verifiable by science. And so far they continue to do so in ways that beats tokyos best robots.
Trees make "decisions" all the time concerning its survival. Water levels, heat, cold, the tree decides if its time to drop the leaves or use energy to keep the leaves alive. If these trees fail to drop their leaves, they die. At the end of each leaf node is a thin layer of cells responsible for cleanly cutting of the leaf when it receives the proper signals to do so.
Not all plants have these specialized cells in charge of dropping a leaf. For these even simpler plants, if a leaf is torn off it leaves a wound on the plant that can become infected.
Vines have little whip like branches that blindly thrash about until it finds something to hook onto. Once its finds something to hook onto it starts to wind around that object making a tighter and tighter grip. A third action takes place in some species. Once the whip has wound itself around something it hardens becoming a sturdy anchor.
These three actions have to happen in logical order. Search. Hook. Harden. If they happen in the wrong order it would never work. You may think this is a simple mindless action. But if you were building a robot to carry out the same three step action you might think differently.
The tips of the roots have specialized cells that can find nutrients, detect friendly bacteria or rival species. Based on what the root perceives, it then dictates movement and growth accordingly. Some species are said to be hostile, intentionally using their roots to starve competition while growing harmoniously with its own species.
Plants, like bacteria, use chemicals to relay information. Some species release certain chemicals when under attack by bugs. These chemicals in turn warn neighboring plants who in turn increase their resistance to the attacking bugs.
Its hard for us humans to understand plants. We are hard wired to understand and relate to faces. We convey our emotions through facial expressions. We then naively think that all life on this planet functions on the same level - so that the lizard that can't convey facial expressions becomes an emotionless beast. And the plant which has no face has no life at all.
Thankfully biology proves otherwise.
Its my belief that all living things have some sort of consciousness. That consciousness for me is the definition of life.
I once stood next to a tree that had been dead for over a year. Its roots were in the ground. Its trunk was in one piece. It even still had dried up leaves attached. Easily 99% of the tree was right there in front of me, I bet you could even get DNA samples from its dried up sap.
Computers can be rebooted. But no matter how much water you give the tree or how much plant food you give it, its' never coming back -- its dead. Yet here is 99% of its body right in front of me. So what was that 1% or less that made it alive? Were not so different from that tree.
Thanks for the huge unnecessary explanation of your definition of alive, unfortunately yours cannot be used in moral issues like these as you classify everything as alive. What I was trying to make clear was that we should have multiple terms, one which categorizes everything which deals with a large amount of chemical reactions eg bacteria, and one which includes things which are capable of making true decisions.
Now on to your vine arguement. Do you really believe the vine is making decisions or is it the chemicals inside it. When light touches one side of the vine it grows towards it, not becuase it thinks thats best but becuase thats what its programmed for. When I Said "a sentient computer" I didn't mean creating an artificil tree I meant creating an AI capable of human like thought and morals.
"You can always reboot a computer but never make a tree live" - where did you get that from, have you ever fixed a broken computer, well to fix it you usually have to replace broken parts. Now why couldn't you fix a tree, just becuase it has never been done doesn't mean its not possible.
Nature is amazing an I feel that we should appreciate it, the question is whether killing something will 1)damage ther environment around it 2) cause pain to what your killing. As viruses, bacteria and plants etc all feel no pain or sorrow we are left with only the first part to deal with.
You can actually very easily create a system that recognizes light and move towards it, like a plant does. I don't want to even call it a robot because you don't need a robot. You can create very simple mechanical systems that just need a sensor on it.
I, myself, am against abortions. I dont think it should be use as birth control, we should learn to have self control and plus there are so many other method to prevent including the morning after pill, stop it before it begins. To me it is still killing a baby and just because you cant physically see the child doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
But in my research paper not opinion paper (about abortions) I am for abortions to be made legal. The reason why after actually reading the research I found out why the there is pro-choice. Now ppl who never read the laws and why, it is only their opinion with no facts. Making it ok to make abortions legal has nothing to do with it being a woman's right and the unborn child. They made it legal because regardless of how you feel, women are getting abortions anyway. And when it is not legal a lot of bad stuff happens. Like they are not going to doctors who are qualify to do these procedures, who could do it safely and correctly. Many women were getting infections, internal bleeding, diseases and death. Using coat hangars, rusty instruments, unclean instruments and rooms, in the back alley and a lot of these women are just young women and girls (kids themselves) etc. then you got the black market, and pimps and "unfit" parents MAKING women go to these unclean and dangerous procedures etc. The main reason why they made abortions legal is for safety reasons nothing to do with rights. I wont get really into it. I will never myself think that abortions is ok and no I dont believe it is the woman right, when you get pregnant it isnt just about you, it's not just your body anymore but I also dont believe in illegal procedures where many are force to do or dying from either. If ppl are going to get an abortions then I would prefer them to do it in a safe and by someone who is qualify to do it. Tho i do believe there should be a time limit on it like within the first two months but not afterwards.