Thread: If animal cruelty laws prohibit bestiality, why don't they prohibit factory farming?

People are hypocrits. They want the pleasure of eating meat, because it's what we've always done, and people ignore the consequences (animal cruelty) of this life style, because that's how they're brought up. Hundreds of years ago, it didn't matter, since hunting is something all carni/omnivores do. It was in line with the rest of the world. Normal. Now we herd absurd amounts of animals in small spaces, yet, people don't care. However, when it comes to bestiality (which is condemned in the Bible I believe), it suddenly hits a lot closer to home. It's no longer an invisible unknown entity somewhere producing food products, but rather an actual person with a name and a face, who raped an innocent and helpless creature. People selectively react to what they are comfortable with reacting to. That's how we reached the absurd notion that keeping animals in cruel conditions and eventually slaying them is somehow acceptable, while having sex with an animal is cruelty. One could argue that the animals people want to have sex with aren't the same animals as the ones we eat, but that's really besides the point. Some people eat dogs, some people see cows as holy.
It does not matter how many times you flip and turn it. The fact that people are okay with the current farm industry, but condemn animal cruelty (not thinking of bestiality here), is a clear contradiction. Anybody with a minimal amount of knowledge about the food industry is aware of this contradiction at some level, but most choose to ignore it.

There isn't much to say really. There's no real reason for bestiality being illegal. As long as you are not cruel to the animal (don't hurt it), there is no problem. People are simply disgusted by it, similar to how they are/were disgusted by homosexual and interracial relationsips. Yet livestock farms go on. It makes no sense, and it will be a long time before people change. I often consider going vegetarian myself, but it's hard.

Originally Posted by Marvo

There isn't much to say really. There's no real reason for bestiality being illegal. As long as you are not cruel to the animal (don't hurt it), there is no problem. People are simply disgusted by it, similar to how they are/were disgusted by homosexual and interracial relationsips. Yet livestock farms go on. It makes no sense, and it will be a long time before people change. I often consider going vegetarian myself, but it's hard.

Hopefully at some point in vitro meat will become as good or better than the real thing (and reasonably priced enough). At least battery farming is starting to be tackled in the EU... horrible practice. Unfortunately in the UK, 'Halal' meat is widely used to appease Muslims to the point where it can be quite hard to avoid. Not that regular meat production is great, but this is far worse.

Originally Posted by Marvo

I often consider going vegetarian myself, but it's hard.

For me it wasn't as difficult as I thought. Just get a decent veggie cookbook to get some ideas, and you can always use quorn or other meat substitutes allowing you to make the same recipies as before; but cheaper and healthier

Originally Posted by Pensive Patrick

For me it wasn't as difficult as I thought. Just get a decent veggie cookbook to get some ideas, and you can always use quorn or other meat substitutes allowing you to make the same recipies as before; but cheaper and healthier

It was much easier that I imagined as well. It's nothing like quitting smoking.

I'm not even so sure the concern for most people over bestiality is so much about "that poor helpless animal" as more of a disgust reaction - "Oh my god! How could somebody want to do that??!!"

But I do know that distance from the realities of factory farming (and I guess any form of animal cruelty) makes it easy for people to just not think about what's really happening. I eat meat all the time and never think about it, except for one time - when I was about 14 and my uncle took me rabbit hunting with him. We drove a rabbit into a bush and then he had me shoot it. I wanted to show that I was capable of doing it, you know - not some wimpy city-boy and all (even though that's really just what I was) so I did it, but I just wanted to cry. Then he skinned it and my mom cooked it and when I saw recognizable parts of it piled steaming on the plate before me I felt sick again and pushed the plate away and left the table.

Also, I read through another vegetarianism thread here on DV and after a while I couldn't find it in myself to justify eating meat (even though I kept on eating it... hey, I just couldn't JUSTIFY it anymore!)

So, I do believe that education is essential. Make people face the facts of what's going on that they can normally hide from in comfort. Then it gets a lot harder to participate in it even just as passive consumers.

But of course the bigger question is - what can really be done about it on a grass-roots level by those consumers who wake up? How can they stand up against the mega-conglomorate farming concerns who undoubtedly kick in massive amounts of money to certain election campaigns etc?

Going vegetarian is really the only thing you can do as a consumer. Stop buying their products. If you can convince a bunch of friends to also go vegan, or at least buy less meat products, you have made a small change. If a lot of people do that, lots of change. That's how capitalism works, more or less.

If you really want to do something, spread your message on Reddit. If you can do it properly, and word your message well enough, Reddit is one of the best ways on the internet to propogate messages and information. I'm no fan of Reddit and I don't use it for anything really, but that's where you want to go.

Ima go cook me some salmon in lemon and butter. Man, I would just wither away and die without my salmon.

Still not 100% convinced however that I am essentially fucking a live salmon.

But I mean, is that going to be effective? Half a dozen less steaks being sold each week, when school cafeterias buy them by the truckload? It's pretty hard for individuals to have any effect in today's world. I used to be pretty proud that I was making some kind of difference in terms of climte change by riding a bike - but compared to factory smokestacks etc individual consumers make up an infinitesimally small part of carbon dioxide production.

I mean ok, doing something like that can make you personally feel better about not contributing, but is it going to be more then an electron in a bucket in the big picture? It would take billions of people to make even a small dent that way. It would be far more effective to try to change legislature - for instance try to get local schools to go vegetarian. But then there are still restaurants...

I don't know - I can't really see a way to make massive changes in meat consumption.

To be fair, fishing isn't at all as cruel a business as livestock. I probably couldn't live without salmon either.

Darkmatters, do you vote?

I voted once. Felt like an idiot because I didn't know enough about the candidates or issues.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

I voted once. Felt like an idiot because I didn't know enough about the candidates or issues.

I see. Voting is basically the one thing where everyone contributes. That also means that your vote will NEVER make a difference. But if everyone thinks like that, democracy would fail. When you buy food, you're basically voting with your money. You're voting on which food should be supplied the most. You changing your habits won't make a noticable difference, but again, if you think like that, you'll never get anything done.

Marvo, I just indicated that I don't believe the individual consumer can really make even the slightest dent against commecial meat consumption.

What I'm doing is trying to help refine the original question. It's a well-known technique for finding effective solutions... because if you begin with a poorly-defined question you'll never get anywhere. And often just in refining the question several times, the answer will present itself with no further effort required. That won't happen in this topic of course, it's too complex. But I just wanted to raise the issue that the individual consumer has essentially no power to make changes against commercialized meat consumption.

So, the question is - just HOW to make any kind of effective change against commercialized meat consumption? I'd think lobbying to get local schools to reduce meat in their menus would make a much bigger change than a single vote would - especially if factory farming isn't even a platform issue on the ballots.

**edit**

I certainly don't mean to argue AGAINST individuals voting or choosing not to buy meat... just trying to think of a tactic that could be a little more effective against massive conglomorates. So, now Marvo and I have listed 2 options... any other ideas?

Man, that salmon was amazingly nice. They say you grow to hate food you eat regularly... nope.

Lol drunk Xei is semi-articulate!!

It's barbecued ribs for me tonight... boneless. Mmmmm!!

I wonder how much of the problem is obscurity, or if that's going away. It's been painted like it's really hard to get evidence of the conditions in factory farms, but there's so much material on the internet now that it's hard to make that claim.

Originally Posted by Darkmatters

Lol drunk Xei is semi-articulate!!

Not drunk, just rapidly approaching exams. Cannot frivolously expend any intellectual energy beyond that of 'salmon tastes nice'.

Originally Posted by IndieAnthias

I wonder how much of the problem is obscurity, or if that's going away. It's been painted like it's really hard to get evidence of the conditions in factory farms, but there's so much material on the internet now that it's hard to make that claim.

I don't think that's it so much as lack of immediacy. I think a lot of people are like me - they know about it, but they don't have to really confront the problem face to face. You don't see all that internet info unless you sit down and look for it. But when you go shopping, the meat racks are fully stocked, and this time of year you smell barbeque everywhere, and it smells amazing!!! In fact, that's exctly why I bought the ribs a week ago - I kept smelling meat grilling all over the neighborhood. But I never thought about factory farming except when I look at this thread - and even then only in an abstract way.

It needs to be on TV - not just the internet. On the internet only people already looking for it will find it, and they're mostly already vegetarians or on the verge of it. The general public should be made to confront it unflinchingly.

I think living the way you wish to see the world is important. It doesn't mean you have to make a difference. That's sort of irrelevant. I'm voting for a 3rd party candidate this year, that doesn't mean I think he has a chance at winning but I am so utterly sick of the republicrats I can't do anything different. I'm not going to give up because my vote is meaningless, either. I mean, I guess I'm following the Baghavad Gita when Krishna says "To a man belong only his actions, and never the fruit of them."

I can't control the world, and I can't mold it into my desires. But I can control my actions and my attitude, and I don't see why I would choose not to perform the right actions just because they won't change the world for everyone. I ride a bike and eat locally grown/raised food because its better for me, and because it forces me to design my lifestyle as if I lived in a society without fossil fuel addiction. And if others wish to depend on such a temporary foundation, that's great for them, they can just drown. I won't judge them but they'll reap what they sew and I can't save them. I'll do what I think is most sustainable.