Sociopathy and Brain Chemistry

I've been thinking lately about sociopathy and brain chemistry. Many who I share my true feelings with (pretty much entirely through the internet) would agree with my belief that I am a sociopath, or sociopathic to a degree beyond what you would typically see in a person. I lack emotional connection with others (seemingly through inability), I use the people I know, I lie to the point that I don't even consider what I'm doing lying anymore (it's almost like a game)--though I do have the capacity for honesty, and I only feel remorse about something if I have caused myself pain or loss in some way by mistake. On forums other than this one, I often troll others as a source of entertainment, though it usually goes much deeper than what you'd see of your typical internet troll. I've been a long time member of a few particular forums, and I will go as far as to specifically befriend some and make enemies with others to see just how far I can take it, just how much of a reaction I can get out of people. I have an accomplice of sorts that belongs to these same forums and we work very well together. We work together, but often act as enemies or friends in public or even in private with others depending on which is more useful in getting the biggest reaction. This is a hobby of mine that usually takes up the rest of the time between using drugs or playing video games.

What I want to know is how exactly is the brain chemistry of a sociopath different than that of a normal person? I've read all kinds of things about the prefrontal cortex, etc., but personally in my experience with drugs I've narrowed it down to mostly one neurotransmitter. Drugs which elicit serotonergic responses or act as serotonin receptor agonists are the only ones I've taken that ever make me feel "human". Amphetamines, when I used to actually get a high serotonergic response, caused it. MDMA to an extent, though what I got wasn't very good, so I can't accurately judge. Lastly is psychedelics, which nearly make me feel completely "normal" and even caring of others. I've only had the great fortune of using LSD and psilocybin, however. Both of these made me feel like I actually had real emotions for once in my life. When I was happy, I was truly happy (not like the indifferent and not sad, mad, or any other emotion feeling that I usually call "happy"); when I was feeling any emotion, I really felt it. I found myself actually very caring of others, simply because caring felt so good. I felt what I can only describe as love towards others. Normally I view the world from my own standpoint. I realize others care for and love each other, but somehow the fact that I am the way I am makes me assume everyone is like me (likely a protection mechanism, I think--I do not like being unknowingly manipulated and as a result have a very keen sense of whether I am or not). My view of the world, as you could probably guess, is very pessimistic. But on psychedelics I feel like the world is the place it's meant to be, the way it's described in stories or by others. Love actually exists, and those around me are good people, with good intentions, and do the right thing without an ulterior motive.

So the real question, I guess, is a chemical imbalance of brain serotonin largely responsible for sociopathy? Or is what I experience by drugs merely a sort of psychosis of which I am suffering temporarily? The prefrontal cortex also relies heavily on dopamine, but I don't have much trouble controlling my impulses or planning ahead. In fact I've grown very good at it. I am not a neuroscientist and without tools to test my hypotheses I can't ever truly say, but I would attribute the affliction more to a serotonin deficiency than that of a dopamine deficiency. Thoughts, theories, comments, or questions? Someone with more knowledge on the subject sharing research or articles would be appreciated.

Hmm... my guess is that it's not exactly serotonin, at least not completely, though of course it's hard to say. But especially unless that MDMA you got was pure crap, I would doubt it. MDMA is by far the most serotonergic of the drugs you mentioned; psychedelics (at least the ones you mentioned), believe it or not, actually lower serotonin levels and release dopamine, even though they do it by acting on serotonin receptors, and their effects can be almost entirely muted by blocking dopamine receptors. If I had to guess, I would say it sounds like you're lacking in oxytocin. From some quick research (on Wikipedia):

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The inability to secrete oxytocin and feel empathy is linked to sociopathy, psychopathy, narcissism, and general manipulativeness.

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Now of course, how much oxytocin you release can correlate to how much serotonin you have, but again, what I said about the MDMA.... Another thing that always got me was the fact that taking L-DOPA can have the same emotion-enhancing effect as psychedelics, while 5-HTP tends to just make you tired and have a nice body high (as do many selective serotonin releasing agents). D2 receptors are the ones largely responsible for the "psychedelic" effects of dopamine, and they also release oxytocin. Most hallucinogens also seem to effect D2 somewhere downstream, and this includes psychedelics. The 5-HT2A receptor, which all psychedelics must activate, lowers activity at group II metabotropic glutamate receptors (2 specifically, I believe) and this causes an increase in NMDA and dopamine receptor activity. This is believed to be the cause of psychedelic hallucinations. Conversely, NMDA antagonists/dissociatives (though drugs like ketamine and PCP get around this by activating D2 as well) cause a release in glutamate which likely activates these same metabotropic glutamate receptors in the prefrontal cortex and (obviously) block NMDA activity, leading to the opposite effect of psychedelics. Given that they're also known to upregulate D2 receptors, it seems very likely that they then lower dopamine receptor activity opposite to psychedelics. For psychedelics this would account for the extreme oversensitivity to all forms of sensory input, and for dissociatives this would account for the... well, dissociation. Interestingly, though, both psychedelics and dissociatives release dopamine. So maybe you're still fine as far as the dopaminergic motor and thought control go, but your NMDA receptor activity is low and that's causing your dopamine receptor responses to be weaker especially at D2, and that's causing a drop in that oxytocin/emotional response? And psychedelics would reverse that in the most direct way possible, accounting for why they would make you feel "normal".

To perhaps add some credit to your theory, it's possible that your levels of kynurenic acid are high. This is a dissociative that's naturally in the brain, and it is formed through the metabolism of L-tryptophan, just like serotonin. Higher levels of it have been associated with pathological states. So it could be that you're getting hit with a double front; maybe your body is producing less serotonin and more kynurenic acid from L-tryptophan than it should be, and so both your serotonin levels and D2 responses drop, leading to a large loss of oxytocin secretion?

Just my two cents.

I would suggest doing Ayahuasca. But its something only done correctly by medicine men/ women/shamans.

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Originally Posted by Alyzarin

Hmm... my guess is that it's not exactly serotonin, at least not completely, though of course it's hard to say. But especially unless that MDMA you got was pure crap, I would doubt it. MDMA is by far the most serotonergic of the drugs you mentioned; psychedelics (at least the ones you mentioned), believe it or not, actually lower serotonin levels and release dopamine, even though they do it by acting on serotonin receptors, and their effects can be almost entirely muted by blocking dopamine receptors. If I had to guess, I would say it sounds like you're lacking in oxytocin. From some quick research (on Wikipedia):



Now of course, how much oxytocin you release can correlate to how much serotonin you have, but again, what I said about the MDMA.... Another thing that always got me was the fact that taking L-DOPA can have the same emotion-enhancing effect as psychedelics, while 5-HTP tends to just make you tired and have a nice body high (as do many selective serotonin releasing agents). D2 receptors are the ones largely responsible for the "psychedelic" effects of dopamine, and they also release oxytocin. Most hallucinogens also seem to effect D2 somewhere downstream, and this includes psychedelics. The 5-HT2A receptor, which all psychedelics must activate, lowers activity at group II metabotropic glutamate receptors (2 specifically, I believe) and this causes an increase in NMDA and dopamine receptor activity. This is believed to be the cause of psychedelic hallucinations. Conversely, NMDA antagonists/dissociatives (though drugs like ketamine and PCP get around this by activating D2 as well) cause a release in glutamate which likely activates these same metabotropic glutamate receptors in the prefrontal cortex and (obviously) block NMDA activity, leading to the opposite effect of psychedelics. Given that they're also known to upregulate D2 receptors, it seems very likely that they then lower dopamine receptor activity opposite to psychedelics. For psychedelics this would account for the extreme oversensitivity to all forms of sensory input, and for dissociatives this would account for the... well, dissociation. Interestingly, though, both psychedelics and dissociatives release dopamine. So maybe you're still fine as far as the dopaminergic motor and thought control go, but your NMDA receptor activity is low and that's causing your dopamine receptor responses to be weaker especially at D2, and that's causing a drop in that oxytocin/emotional response? And psychedelics would reverse that in the most direct way possible, accounting for why they would make you feel "normal".

To perhaps add some credit to your theory, it's possible that your levels of kynurenic acid are high. This is a dissociative that's naturally in the brain, and it is formed through the metabolism of L-tryptophan, just like serotonin. Higher levels of it have been associated with pathological states. So it could be that you're getting hit with a double front; maybe your body is producing less serotonin and more kynurenic acid from L-tryptophan than it should be, and so both your serotonin levels and D2 responses drop, leading to a large loss of oxytocin secretion?

Just my two cents.

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First of all, thanks for the very informative and interesting response. However unless I am just much less knowledgeable about these things and am mistaken (entirely possible), I'm not sure I entirely agree with what you've said. To begin, the MDMA I got was a single, supposedly triple stacked tablet. I don't think it was triple stacked, and I think I merely took too low of a dose to truly have been effected much. The feeling, to me, was nearly identical to LSD in how I physically felt, though the atmosphere was a little less... creepy? The entire time I was on it, I felt like I was about to start hallucinating/tripping because the feeling was so similar.

Secondly, although serotonin is not directly involved, would being a 5-ht2a agonist not mean that there is an increased serotonergic response, or a response very similar to a serotonergic response? This is where I feel least knowledgeable about this. Also, I was prescribed Adderall and Focalin once upon a time, and I found myself no more empathetic with others (Adderall I felt empathetic the first 3 times I took it, after that it totally and completely disappeared and has since never returned; Focalin has never made me empathetic). Adderall works primarily on D1, D3, and D4 sites and reportedly elicits an increased serotonergic response the first few times you take it, which was seemingly the case with me. Focalin (dextro-methylphenidate) works primarily on D2 receptors and yet I have never gotten the response that I even got from Adderall, which has more limited D2 response. I suppose there are too many missing facts and unknown variables here to really narrow things down, but you've offered me some new insight and knowledge, so again I say thanks.

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Originally Posted by snoop

First of all, thanks for the very informative and interesting response. However unless I am just much less knowledgeable about these things and am mistaken (entirely possible), I'm not sure I entirely agree with what you've said. To begin, the MDMA I got was a single, supposedly triple stacked tablet. I don't think it was triple stacked, and I think I merely took too low of a dose to truly have been effected much. The feeling, to me, was nearly identical to LSD in how I physically felt, though the atmosphere was a little less... creepy? The entire time I was on it, I felt like I was about to start hallucinating/tripping because the feeling was so similar.

Secondly, although serotonin is not directly involved, would being a 5-ht2a agonist not mean that there is an increased serotonergic response, or a response very similar to a serotonergic response? This is where I feel least knowledgeable about this. Also, I was prescribed Adderall and Focalin once upon a time, and I found myself no more empathetic with others (Adderall I felt empathetic the first 3 times I took it, after that it totally and completely disappeared and has since never returned; Focalin has never made me empathetic). Adderall works primarily on D1, D3, and D4 sites and reportedly elicits an increased serotonergic response the first few times you take it, which was seemingly the case with me. Focalin (dextro-methylphenidate) works primarily on D2 receptors and yet I have never gotten the response that I even got from Adderall, which has more limited D2 response. I suppose there are too many missing facts and unknown variables here to really narrow things down, but you've offered me some new insight and knowledge, so again I say thanks.

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You're quite welcome. :) Just for the record, you can ignore the things that people say like "triple stacked"... it's all meaningless. Many "stacked" tabs I've gotten clearly didn't even contain MDMA. Not that I'm saying yours didn't, however. I understand the similiarities between LSD and MDMA, but this is not because LSD has a serotonin releasing effects, but because MDMA is a 5-HT2A agonist, and is legitimately psychedelic particularly at higher doses. Believe me, pure serotonin activity enhancers do not feel like LSD, at least not to a significant degree. Furthermore, just since I have no real knowledge of your drug use, how sure are you that you were getting real LSD? I don't doubt you, but just thought I'd note that most (if not all) of the chemicals often sold as LSD (the DOx family, bromo-dragonfly, etc.) have activity at 5-HT2B, which LSD lacks (except in very high doses). This actually causes a release of serotonin similar to MDMA, and those drugs do have body highs very similar to MDMA. To me, MDMA and LSD do not feel very similar aside from the fact that you can tell they're both activating serotonin receptors, but in different ways.

Well, that's a complicated question.... You see, serotonin doesn't actually activate the 5-HT2A receptor in the same way that psychedelics do. The relation with metabotropic glutamate receptors never shows up, which would mean that, if what I said before is correct, more serotonin would actually not completely solve your problem. I'm not sure where you got your data about receptor affinity of Adderall (though I'd love a reference), but as far as I'm aware amphetamine works largely to simply increase dopamine concentrations, which would not differentiate between receptor subtypes. In fact, it's well-known that D2 plays a very large role in the rewarding effects of psychostimulants. It's also known that D2 downregulates quickly from overstimulation, and I would personally place the blame much more on this than the loss of serotonergic response to the drug, which is largely insignificant as it is. The reason I think that stimulants would not be your answer here is because of what D2 does, which is lower activity at NMDA receptors. Like I was saying before, activating 5-HT2A/blocking mGluR2 causes activity at both D2 and NMDA to increase, while blocking NMDA causes activity at both to decrease. Activating D2 without going through 5-HT2A/mGluR2 is not enough to create this full effect, and even though activating D2 will release that oxytocin, since your (theoretical) problem was lowered responses due to NMDA blocking, the effect would still be minimal.

I actually need to head out now, so I'm sorry, I know that was kind of an awkward way to end that paragraph, but I'll look forward to your response if you post one!

Sociopaths can be made OR born.

People who tend to do a lot of stimulants (cocaine, amphetamine, meth) tend to act very sociopathic. The brain chemistry is altered and they feel no emotions except when 'coming down' and then depression typically sets in.

Others seem to be born with the same chemical imbalance and are naturally this way.

At any rate both groups are likely racking up some bad karma so I don't recommend going around being a jerk for something to do. Read a book or something.

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Originally Posted by Alyzarin

You're quite welcome. :) Just for the record, you can ignore the things that people say like "triple stacked"... it's all meaningless. Many "stacked" tabs I've gotten clearly didn't even contain MDMA. Not that I'm saying yours didn't, however. I understand the similiarities between LSD and MDMA, but this is not because LSD has a serotonin releasing effects, but because MDMA is a 5-HT2A agonist, and is legitimately psychedelic particularly at higher doses. Believe me, pure serotonin activity enhancers do not feel like LSD, at least not to a significant degree. Furthermore, just since I have no real knowledge of your drug use, how sure are you that you were getting real LSD? I don't doubt you, but just thought I'd note that most (if not all) of the chemicals often sold as LSD (the DOx family, bromo-dragonfly, etc.) have activity at 5-HT2B, which LSD lacks (except in very high doses). This actually causes a release of serotonin similar to MDMA, and those drugs do have body highs very similar to MDMA. To me, MDMA and LSD do not feel very similar aside from the fact that you can tell they're both activating serotonin receptors, but in different ways.

Well, that's a complicated question.... You see, serotonin doesn't actually activate the 5-HT2A receptor in the same way that psychedelics do. The relation with metabotropic glutamate receptors never shows up, which would mean that, if what I said before is correct, more serotonin would actually not completely solve your problem. I'm not sure where you got your data about receptor affinity of Adderall (though I'd love a reference), but as far as I'm aware amphetamine works largely to simply increase dopamine concentrations, which would not differentiate between receptor subtypes. In fact, it's well-known that D2 plays a very large role in the rewarding effects of psychostimulants. It's also known that D2 downregulates quickly from overstimulation, and I would personally place the blame much more on this than the loss of serotonergic response to the drug, which is largely insignificant as it is. The reason I think that stimulants would not be your answer here is because of what D2 does, which is lower activity at NMDA receptors. Like I was saying before, activating 5-HT2A/blocking mGluR2 causes activity at both D2 and NMDA to increase, while blocking NMDA causes activity at both to decrease. Activating D2 without going through 5-HT2A/mGluR2 is not enough to create this full effect, and even though activating D2 will release that oxytocin, since your (theoretical) problem was lowered responses due to NMDA blocking, the effect would still be minimal.

I actually need to head out now, so I'm sorry, I know that was kind of an awkward way to end that paragraph, but I'll look forward to your response if you post one!

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My research into amphetamines and methylphenidate took place during my time of being prescribed to them, which was about a year ago and took place during, roughly, a 4 month period. The sources are many, though wikipedia itself actually had a lot of information. Amphetamines raised dopamine levels across the board, but had the most significant effect at D1, D3, and D4. D4 specifically has been implicated in cases of ADHD, though there are many factors that play a role in ADHD; I think it said that many ADHD sufferers have lower amounts or are actually born without D4.7... I wouldn't necessarily quote me on that though. Methylphenidate, by contrast, has a pharmacology that more resembles that of cocaine, and it's primary effects are on the D2 receptor.

About the LSD purity... I can't really say. I've gotten it from 3 different sources in the past, and one source provided low potency, another medium, and another extremely high potency. If I had to guess, the three or so times I got the high potency hits, what I may have gotten was DOB/DOI/or something in the 2c family, because it lasted for about 16 hours and it caused me to be extremely cold (similar to amphetamines/other stimulants). I felt as though it were -20 outside with my shirt off and it was the middle of summer. I even chattered my teeth and was shivering. The blotter paper also had a bitter taste to it, which was never the case any of the other times I took LSD. The intensity of the body high was so great as well that it felt like I nearly couldn't take it, and this lasted nearly the duration of the entire trip. The low and med potency doses I got both caused me to hallucinate, etc., but the "body high" was more like some giggly excitement (the kind you used to get as a kid on Christmas morning) that lasted for 3 or 4 hours, and the trip lasted more like 8 to 12 hours.

In response to your first sentence, a broader topic of study (if you are truly committed to understanding your “affliction”) would be the relationship between our neurobiology and behavior (which encompasses your original question) which would require extensive study in neuroscience and cognitive psychology. Your drug intake is not my business and forgive me for being completely uninterested in taking drugs (as I value my cognitive faculties, no offense) by I would also suggest some healthy, sober introspection on your part and its sound like you have already done a good deal of that and your knowledge of neurobiology is a good start as well.

You claim to have no emotional connection with others (side note, does this include non-human persons as well?) so lets start there. The amygdala is a set of nuclei in the limbic system (which is heavily connected to the prefrontal cortex, specifically the orbital and ventromedial PFC but more on that later) which serves primarily to associate sensory stimuli (stimulus-reinforcement association) with emotional value or significance. Now lesions to the bilateral amygdala can cause some interesting effects on an individual’s emotional and social behavior as well as the ability to recognize emotion in others.

A really interesting study of this shows how a patient with Urbach-Wiethe disease (which in this case caused heavy atrophy to the medial temporal lobes causing lesions on the bilateral amygdala) who was completely unable to recognize the emotion of fear. When showed images of faces the patient could not point out the “fear expression” this might seem trivial but this recognition of the expression of fear is a crucial social mechanism. Most neurotypicals can pick up social cues not just from facial expressions but from bodily postures, speech, etc. which helps us navigate and interact within a social context. I’m not saying that you have this disease by any means but I am pointing out how the neurotypical response to others in fear (and pain) is empathy and considering that you don’t feel this sentiment in a “typical” way might suggest a neurological disorder.

What I am primarily getting at is that our neurobiology for better or for worse accrues a propensity to behave in certain ways in reaction to certain stimuli. The fact that you display untypical responses to other people does suggest a disorder whether it be behavioral or neurological. You seem to recognize that considering that you started this thread although I don’t want you to get the impression that I am in anyway judging you but I simply desired to answer you question in what hopefully will be a helpful way.

Another really interesting study concerning neurochemistry and how it affects our behavior was conducted on the effects of neuropeptides on rat behavior. An antagonist of oxytocin was administered to rats immediately after giving birth (the pups were taken away and reintroduced to the mother after 40 minutes). A control group of rats given a saline injection showed full maternal behavior almost immediately as the pups were returned. However the oxytocin-antagonist injected rat moms showed a significant delay in typical grooming behavior (grooming, herding, etc). After an hour only four of the six rat mothers displayed grooming behavior (so two displayed no interest in their young).

In another study female virgin rats were giving an injection of oxytocin and were introduced to foster pups (keep in mind the female rats are virgins so the pups are just other rats to them). About less than half of these rats displayed full maternal behavior but the control rats (injected with saline and vasopressin [an oxytocin analogue which differs from oxytocin by two amino acids]) showed absolutely no maternal behavior or interest in the foster pups.

Now I’m sure that you by now understand the point of summarizing these two studies which is to demonstrate just how our neurochemistry affects our behavior. This doesn’t answer your other question in an explicit way (the idea that the neurotransmitter serotonin is responsible for psychopathy) but serves as a kind of demonstration of how you are on the right track.

It is not surprising that you feel empathy and compassion and general well-being on psychedelic drugs because these drugs are changing your neurochemistry in very profound ways. There is some evidence that serotonin is linked to psychopathy and it is important to keep in mind that it will not be one single neurotransmitter or neurological structure which causes psychopathy. The are numerous traits associated with anti-social behavior some of which can result in genetic disorders and some can result from learning disorders and other environmental factors. Being unemotional towards others is but one symptom of psychopathy but you mentioned that you are not afflicted with impulsivity and other decision making disorders so for now that rules out disorders in the orbital and ventromedial prefrontal cortex.

Now there are studies that suggest that a decrease in serotonin levels is correlated with psychopathic behavior and that shorter alleles on serotonin transport protein genes in individuals are also correlated with psychopathic behavior but in my opinion they are not the whole truth of the matter, there are many other factors involved. Now here is a really interesting study that Im sure you would like to read yourself.

Serotonin transporter gene associations wit... [J Abnorm Psychol. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

Essentially children with shorter alleles (serotonin transport protein gene SLC6A4) scored significantly lower on tests designed to identify psychopathic traits than children with longer alleles. Ok but get this. The children with shorter alleles tended to have lower economic status’ than children with longer ones (who were of high economic status ie rich or well off) which demonstrates just how our social environment can affect our neurobiology as well.

With all of that being said, I’m tired and am going to bed. I have some more to say on the subject but I am being distracted by my bed and cannot continue.

Can't believe I'm getting as good responses as I am--I had my doubts to how well the topic would take.

First things first, my drug use was primarily something I did just to experience things. I tried giving most things (within reason) a go just to see what they were like. Any time now that I use anything, it's as a form of entertainment, and not really all that often (once or twice in a month, or for whatever reason if I'm really bored once a week). Things that may be of interest to you or have pertinence to the topic at hand about myself include I have been "diagnosed" with ADHD (possibilty of bipolar because my uncle is bipolar) predominantly inattentive/mildly hyperactive. I used to have a lot of trouble with impulsiveness, however I have become more disciplined. I've actually impressed myself a good deal with how well I actually think before acting or saying anything. Occasionally I'll slip up and end up becoming angry with myself because although whatever I just did was highly entertaining, it was also very stupid and likely to come back to bite me in the ass. The inattentiveness is really just a case of constantly having wandering thoughts, day dreaming, imagining scenarios likely never to come true, and nearly always feeling and experiencing what happens when you're driving down the road and 5 minutes later you realize you have no recollection of what you've been doing or where you've been driving. The hyperactivity is kicking one or both of my legs up and down wildly at all times, especially when I'm trying to concentrate. Also making noises and saying random shit and pretending to freak out in a goofy way constantly around people I'm very comfortable with. Otherwise I'm that quiet guy with nothing to say unless directly spoken to.

Although I've never really pinned the lack of emotional connection to my head injury in may of 2008 (I think?), in which I was hit in the head with a discus at a track meet, a lot of emotional and behavioural changes took place in the next few years. I was always considered to be ADHD without official diagnosis until a year ago, but not quite as badly as it had become. After about a half a year of the injury, for about a 2 year period I became seriously depressed. Somehow I wound up recovering without any help, but I guess my lack of emotional connection had intensified quite a bit without my really noticing because the primary focus day-to-day was depression.

From what I've read about ADHD, a lack of empathy is fairly common for males. Perhaps minor brain damage combined with ADHD or I suppose possibly bipolar is the cause? Apparently, according to my psychiatrist (who I only really see, or rather used to see, about ADHD), head injuries have been known to worsen ADHD symptoms. Because I was not born without remorse or emotional connection, I definitely do not consider psychopathy an appropriate description of my condition--hence, I use sociopath instead (basically psychopathy caused by environment/not present at birth). Maybe sociopath isn't the correct term either, but I fit the profile pretty closely.

I apologize for double posting, but I've got a few things to add.

To begin, my view on life, my emotions in general, my behaviour... pretty much everything has radically changed over the course of my life. As a child I was a bit of a trouble maker, somewhat prone to violence and angry outbursts, even at friends. Overall, though, I was caring, made friends, loved my family, and felt like I truly "felt" emotions. As a teenager I was extremely prone to anxiety, I guess I cared too much about everything, life was kind of intense because from 15 to 17 I was extremely depressed. I hated everyone and everything beyond what I thought was humanly possible. I was so angry and distraught and sad at the same time, but mostly angry... unbelievably angry. I hated myself the most. Then, somehow I hit a clearing, life started to get better, I stopped being completely antisocial and made friends again. However, coming out of the emotional intensity of those two years, it's like I shed all emotion. All I ever feel now is indifference, boredom, and from time to time mild melancholy spells. Rather than worry about everything like I used to, like my mom does (she's got ridiculous anxiety), I find myself literally incapable of finding enough motivation to care. I honestly don't care what I do with my life, what I become or achieve, or where I'm at even in the next year. I used to think about death a lot when I was depressed, and despite hating myself as much as I did, I was very scared to die and took little risks because I was afraid of death. Now, I know that I don't want to die, but I take many life threatening risks without much problem. The thought simply doesn't cause fear. In my boredom, for example, since I live in a kinda Podunk town, I usually tear through the country going, on average, between 60 and 80 mph in my truck, when on a majority of the roads the speed limit is 35 to 45 mph. I've stolen things from stores plenty of times, in fact for a long time I was getting too good at it. I have since, for the most part, stopped doing this. I no longer feel love for my family, I don't think I would feel a thing if tomorrow I were told they all died. I have a bad habit of somehow getting lots of money from my parents when they aren't even all that well off. I'm so good at it that many times I can appear very honest or like I've got cash of my own, while still receiving a lot. Despite having a job this summer, somehow they're still giving me the same amount of money as before even when I've got my own income.

My relationships with people are largely superficial, and most friends I have aren't really friends. I have two really good friends and that's it, the rest are more like familiar acquaintances. I'm very capable of appearing however I need to. I'm practically a pathological liar now--I've always lied a lot, but now I don't even consider the lies I tell to be "lies" in my head. Like, they fit in the same category as everything else, like I believe my own lie at the same time knowing it isn't true; there is no anxiety of being caught or even for the mere fact I'm lying when I tell one. As a result, I am very manipulative. I mostly use what I call soft manipulation, where I act certain ways on purpose to get people to think of me in a specific way so as to provide myself options in future encounters. I also tend to try and be most everyone's "friend" or a friendly guy because more often than not, positive relationships are much more useful than negative ones. I also don't want anyone to get leverage on me, so I try and be the "better person" in the relationship. I can use a persons own good will against them, and am also very good at knowing when others are manipulating me, or at least attempting it. If someone tries to manipulate me, they're really doing me a favor because 9 times out of 10 I'm better at it than they are and I can let them think I've been successfully manipulated when in reality I'm further getting the picture I want painted of me in their head. At the end of the day most people that know me would probably describe me as a good person. It doesn't really matter to me on an emotional level because I don't really see how people can be good or evil. There's at least two sides to everything and since such judgments are entirely subjective it's not really correct, or useful (other than for manipulation's sake), to assign positive or negative value to an act, person, or thing. From an even larger perspective (beyond the earth or human life) everything is essentially valueless. Nothing really matters, so why care?

Also, for anyone wanting an idea of how I feel about people, things, events, etc., imagine reading about something terrible and, say, you see a death toll. There are no pictures, no sound, just written words. It says a few thousand people died--it doesn't even describe anything more than that they are dead. You don't feel bad for knowing about this or hearing about this, it's just a statistic. That same detached uncaring is pretty much how I feel about anything worthy of an emotional response, be it empathy, fear, or whatever. Also, and oddity I notice in myself is an odd and somewhat sadistic sense of humor. I do not find almost anything most people find funny, funny. Usually what I find funny is random, but for some reason people in some sort of anguish or having some act that will cause them anguish directly or indirectly performed on them or their property, family, pets, etc. I find extremely funny. To tell you the truth though, I couldn't tell you why. I just see it and I can't help but laugh a lot.

Truly, despite lacking emotional depth being kinda shitty I guess, I feel like I'm empowered because I do not feel a lot of the negative emotions people do and am also quite able to get what I want out of life. Besides, assuming I can find psychedelics in the future, I can still experience the raw beauty of... well, everything, anyway. lol

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Originally Posted by snoop

Both of these made me feel like I actually had real emotions for once in my life. When I was happy, I was truly happy (not like the indifferent and not sad, mad, or any other emotion feeling that I usually call "happy"); when I was feeling any emotion, I really felt it. I found myself actually very caring of others, simply because caring felt so good. I felt what I can only describe as love towards others. Normally I view the world from my own standpoint. I realize others care for and love each other, but somehow the fact that I am the way I am makes me assume everyone is like me (likely a protection mechanism, I think--I do not like being unknowingly manipulated and as a result have a very keen sense of whether I am or not).

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I would suggest that this is not how most people function morally, at least in a mundane setting. Most people run morally on neutral, but are prevented from doing something immoral by a natural discomfort. I think negative stimuli are a lot more common and quite possibly more potent, from a personal and social perspective. I can access strong positive feelings, but they don't usually act as moral stimuli.

Are you autistic (I'd guess not)?

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Originally Posted by snoop

Both of these made me feel like I actually had real emotions for once in my life. When I was happy, I was truly happy (not like the indifferent and not sad, mad, or any other emotion feeling that I usually call "happy"); when I was feeling any emotion, I really felt it. I found myself actually very caring of others, simply because caring felt so good. I felt what I can only describe as love towards others. Normally I view the world from my own standpoint. I realize others care for and love each other, but somehow the fact that I am the way I am makes me assume everyone is like me (likely a protection mechanism, I think--I do not like being unknowingly manipulated and as a result have a very keen sense of whether I am or not).

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I would suggest that this is not how most people function morally, at least in a mundane setting. Most people run morally on neutral, but are prevented from doing something immoral by a natural discomfort. I think negative stimuli are a lot more common and quite possibly more potent, from a personal and social perspective. I can access strong positive feelings, but they don't usually act as moral stimuli.

Are you autistic (I'd guess not)?

I'm confused a little about what you're saying, is it that how I felt on psychedelics emotionally toward others is not how a normal person would feel? If so, I would have to agree, it's just the closest semblance of normalcy I've felt since childhood. In fact, and this may also just be a delusional effect of the drug, but LSD in particular seemed to me a lot like I was returning home in a way. I felt like... me. Kind of hard to explain. Also, when I said caring felt good, I did not mean rewarding. I meant it felt right, like the natural order of things. I suppose I could've used better diction there.

To answer your question about autism, I've got no clue. The only thing I've ever seen a professional about is ADHD, and that had a specific motive (which I later came to regret). So, considering my behaviour is actually indicative of several mental disorders, I will admit that it could be equally as likely to be any of those rather than ASPD/sociopathy.

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Originally Posted by snoop

However, coming out of the emotional intensity of those two years, it's like I shed all emotion. All I ever feel now is indifference, boredom, and from time to time mild melancholy spells. Rather than worry about everything like I used to, like my mom does (she's got ridiculous anxiety), I find myself literally incapable of finding enough motivation to care. I honestly don't care what I do with my life, what I become or achieve, or where I'm at even in the next year. I used to think about death a lot when I was depressed, and despite hating myself as much as I did, I was very scared to die and took little risks because I was afraid of death. Now, I know that I don't want to die, but I take many life threatening risks without much problem. The thought simply doesn't cause fear. In my boredom, for example, since I live in a kinda Podunk town, I usually tear through the country going, on average, between 60 and 80 mph in my truck, when on a majority of the roads the speed limit is 35 to 45 mph. I've stolen things from stores plenty of times, in fact for a long time I was getting too good at it. I have since, for the most part, stopped doing this. I no longer feel love for my family, I don't think I would feel a thing if tomorrow I were told they all died. I have a bad habit of somehow getting lots of money from my parents when they aren't even all that well off. I'm so good at it that many times I can appear very honest or like I've got cash of my own, while still receiving a lot. Despite having a job this summer, somehow they're still giving me the same amount of money as before even when I've got my own income.

My relationships with people are largely superficial, and most friends I have aren't really friends. I have two really good friends and that's it, the rest are more like familiar acquaintances. I'm very capable of appearing however I need to. I'm practically a pathological liar now--I've always lied a lot, but now I don't even consider the lies I tell to be "lies" in my head. Like, they fit in the same category as everything else, like I believe my own lie at the same time knowing it isn't true; there is no anxiety of being caught or even for the mere fact I'm lying when I tell one. As a result, I am very manipulative. I mostly use what I call soft manipulation, where I act certain ways on purpose to get people to think of me in a specific way so as to provide myself options in future encounters. I also tend to try and be most everyone's "friend" or a friendly guy because more often than not, positive relationships are much more useful than negative ones. I also don't want anyone to get leverage on me, so I try and be the "better person" in the relationship. I can use a persons own good will against them, and am also very good at knowing when others are manipulating me, or at least attempting it. If someone tries to manipulate me, they're really doing me a favor because 9 times out of 10 I'm better at it than they are and I can let them think I've been successfully manipulated when in reality I'm further getting the picture I want painted of me in their head. At the end of the day most people that know me would probably describe me as a good person. It doesn't really matter to me on an emotional level because I don't really see how people can be good or evil. There's at least two sides to everything and since such judgments are entirely subjective it's not really correct, or useful (other than for manipulation's sake), to assign positive or negative value to an act, person, or thing. From an even larger perspective (beyond the earth or human life) everything is essentially valueless. Nothing really matters, so why care?

Also, for anyone wanting an idea of how I feel about people, things, events, etc., imagine reading about something terrible and, say, you see a death toll. There are no pictures, no sound, just written words. It says a few thousand people died--it doesn't even describe anything more than that they are dead. You don't feel bad for knowing about this or hearing about this, it's just a statistic. That same detached uncaring is pretty much how I feel about anything worthy of an emotional response, be it empathy, fear, or whatever.

Truly, despite lacking emotional depth being kinda shitty I guess, I feel like I'm empowered because I do not feel a lot of the negative emotions people do and am also quite able to get what I want out of life. Besides, assuming I can find psychedelics in the future, I can still experience the raw beauty of... well, everything, anyway. lol

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This kinda sounds like some depressive bipolar episodes I've witnessed. The boredom, apathy, not feeling any repercussion for actions (either positive or negative). It's familiar. Also, the age of onset is consistent with bipolar. Time (and perhaps genetics) will tell if it's type I, type II, or even bipolar to begin with.

Good luck.

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Also, and oddity I notice in myself is an odd and somewhat sadistic sense of humor. I do not find almost anything most people find funny, funny. Usually what I find funny is random, but for some reason people in some sort of anguish or having some act that will cause them anguish directly or indirectly performed on them or their property, family, pets, etc. I find extremely funny. To tell you the truth though, I couldn't tell you why. I just see it and I can't help but laugh a lot.

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There's a word for that kind of humor.

Thanks for the input, it's interesting you suggest bipolar. Aside from keeping it on the table for discussion because my uncle has bipolar when I saw my psychiatrist every month to discuss how the medication was working with me, a lot of what I said to her about myself she commented sounded like bipolar or was extremely common in those with bipolar. Especially my troubles with sleep... all day able to sleep or feel sleepy whether or not I'd gotten sleep or not the previous day, and then at about 10 or 11 pm I feel completely awake. This also did not matter if I had slept the previous day or not. I felt perfectly awake, and perhaps a bit more important, "better". All day feeling kinda sleepy and like shit. Emotionally not what I'd call completely stable, and then 11ish rolls around and I feel great and totally awake. Who really knows I guess, I manage fine from day to day, if I have any problems in the future I guess I can see someone about it and get it taken care of.

Ok, so I have something that, after a year of treatment, my psychs keep trying to pin as bipolar (that was some of my experience, described above), though they're withholding an official diagnosis until they're certain. What meds do you take? For a while I was on a really shitty one that seriously flattened my emotions (and motivation). But every episode, depressive or manic, has been preceded by periods of sleeplessness, similar to what you describe. I would start getting less and less sleep per night, perhaps none at all. My most recent episode then flipped toward tiredness, where I'd have excited mental states (and learn like five new things) followed by periods of lethargy. Since the first episode, I'd have false alarm periods of sleeplessness lasting about 3 days.

I cope with the sleeplessness by keeping my sleep schedule as regular as possible, taking melatonin supplements if I'm going to be watching a screen before bed, and most importantly I meditate if I can't get to sleep, letting thoughts come and go (sometimes interrupting by writing the really good thoughts down). The meditations will last 6-8 hours, and I'll wake up feeling refreshed and healthy.

Bipolar's a spectrum, and because of that a lot of psychs treat it as the catch-all diagnosis. I've had friends who clearly had OCD+Borderline Personality Disorder written off as bipolar. I've had schizoaffective friends called bipolar, since they only express debilitating symptoms cyclically.

I was on adderall and focalin for adhd (adderall for focus etc., focalin to get me to fall asleep at night--shit put me right out). I've since taken myself off of these, and I've never taken anything for bipolar, we merely kept it on the table because my uncle has bipolar and every so often when I'd be telling her about my issues she would point out that what I had just said was very common for people with bipolar. I was only there to be treated for adhd, though.