Drug that replaces sleep - hypothetical

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Originally Posted by tommo

This is why I find these types of conversation quite pointless. Except to correct people's bad thought processes.

We're assuming this drug would do everything sleep does. Including any bodily healing.

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Oh, right, I forgot that part. That's what you get for posting at 4 AM.

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@omnus Wouldn't amphetamine be more suited?

I want a drug that replaces the need to be awake.

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Originally Posted by ♥Mark

I want a drug that replaces the need to be awake.

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That exists already. Unfortunately they kill you. But hey, you're not awake :D

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Originally Posted by Dianeva

...The only difference is that you don't actually have to lie down and sleep. You don't remember any dreams because you didn't have any. You don't feel as though any time has passed because it hasn't.

Here is the question in mind. If this drug existed, could you really take it to replace sleep?

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Hypothetically, you would only need your bed to have sex in! :hump:

(Men take note: You wouldn't need to fall asleep after making love either. So no excuses there then?) ;)

If such a thing were possible I wouldn't give up sleep entirely, but I would almost certainly stay up for days and weeks at a time most of the time. I've always had issues with the 24 hour day--I did a whole semester in college breaking up the week into four waking/sleeping cycles of varying lengths. I do enjoy sleeping and dreams, but there's a lot more to do with your eyes open.

Fuck it sometimes I sleep just because I'm bored. Although I suppose people would start meeting up during night and all. Imagine walking through the streets at 3am while everyone is still outside shopping and shit.

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Originally Posted by Photolysis

There are already drugs that do this being researched, actually.

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Yep, and there's one drug available already called Modafinil. You can buy it on the net.

Oh and yeah I would choose ~20 years of lucid dreams over ~20 years of extra waking life for sure.

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Originally Posted by ♥Mark

I want a drug that replaces the need to be awake.

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That's called heroin

You guys need to stop hypothetically wondering about drugs that already exist. Next you'll want a drug that turns all your bad problems into good problems.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

That's called heroin

You guys need to stop hypothetically wondering about drugs that already exist. Next you'll want a drug that turns all your bad problems into good problems.

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That's weed.

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Originally Posted by tommo

Yep, and there's one drug available already called Modafinil. You can buy it on the net.

Oh and yeah I would choose ~20 years of lucid dreams over ~20 years of extra waking life for sure.

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It's impossible that you get 20 extra years of lucid dreams, due to REM stages, but if you could lucid dream in every REM minute you had, you'd probably get around 7 extra years.

> Post question in a lucid dream forum
> Ignore dreams

Dreams are awesome! Maybe it's really important for unconscious processing that helps you function IRL. Though, I think being able to make imagination so vivid is beautiful/useful enough to make dreaming worth while.

Sleep freaks me out. It's like a voluntary period of death. Scratch that, it's a voluntary permament death. Your consciousness was destroyed last night; you only think you're the same person today because the physical neurons of that person's memories are still inside your head. I don't know why more people aren't freaked out by sleep.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Your consciousness was destroyed last night; you only think you're the same person today because the physical neurons of that person's memories are still inside your head.

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What? lol

It's true. You were born when you woke up today and you will die when you go to sleep tonight. Why not? Prove me wrong bro.

qO.Op

woah.

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Originally Posted by Xei

It's true. You were born when you woke up today and you will die when you go to sleep tonight. Why not? Prove me wrong bro.

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You could argue this whenever any neurons are created or destroyed (i.e. almost constantly), or take it even further and argue that it occurs when any neurochemical change occurs, thus creating an almost infinite amount of separate consciousnesses that exist for tiny fractions of a second.

I would like to hear your argument for this belief though.

That wasn't really the basis of what I was trying to communicate though; it wasn't really an argument about the physical basis (that was just to show that you can't appeal to a physical argument), it's more about the subjective experience. We experience a continuity of consciousness during waking life. That is indubitable. But when we go to sleep, that consciousness is destroyed. There is zero awareness. There's no perception of time (or anything else), and yet we still think we wake up a period of time later. But what does a period of time mean if we can't percieve it..? Was that period of time finite; did it even exist, are you the same person? Another weird thing is that you can't ever pinpoint the moment that you do become conscious again. You just seem to fade in. So in that respect it is also like birth.

It's not a genuine 'belief'. It's just that thinking about it freaks me out and I don't see why it doesn't freak out other people very much. The whole thing is as impossibly insane as consciousness itself... though interestingly, philosophers don't seem very bothered about it, even though they are bothered about consciousness, birth, and death. I think that's simply because sleep is so common.

In this thread: Xei has a psychotic episode for our entertainment.

Xei,
I wonder are the subconscious and conscious really that separate. The conscious never really shuts off, does it?

The brain activity is totally different actually. During wakefulness it's localised to various areas (depending on what you're doing and what your attention is on), whereas during sleep there is no order or localisation of brain activity. I'm talking about consciousness in the sense of experience. I think it's obvious that during your sleep there is a period for which there is no experience.

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Originally Posted by TruMotion

It's impossible that you get 20 extra years of lucid dreams, due to REM stages, but if you could lucid dream in every REM minute you had, you'd probably get around 7 extra years.

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That's irrelevant, we were talking about which would you rather. I was just going off the numbers provided by whoever posed the question.
And you still dream during non-REM. Also time-dilation.

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Originally Posted by Xei

We experience a continuity of consciousness during waking life. That is indubitable. But when we go to sleep, that consciousness is destroyed. There is zero awareness. There's no perception of time (or anything else), and yet we still think we wake up a period of time later. But what does a period of time mean if we can't percieve it..? Was that period of time finite; did it even exist, are you the same person? Another weird thing is that you can't ever pinpoint the moment that you do become conscious again. You just seem to fade in. So in that respect it is also like birth.

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Woah.... okay Poe's law. I thought you were joking in the previous post.

Most people do not experience a continuity of consciousness IRL. They'll day dream constantly and not even pay attention to where they're driving because they're thinking about something else, they are not aware.
So no it's not indubitable.
I'd also argue we're only slightly less conscious during normal dreams. Only slightly.
When dreaming we still make decisions etc. it's not a movie.
Even if we ourselves are not in the dream occasionally, we still choose to move "the camera" around and see what's happening etc.
The only thing we usually don't realise is that we are dreaming.

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Originally Posted by Xei

It's not a genuine 'belief'. It's just that thinking about it freaks me out and I don't see why it doesn't freak out other people very much. The whole thing is as impossibly insane as consciousness itself... though interestingly, philosophers don't seem very bothered about it, even though they are bothered about consciousness, birth, and death. I think that's simply because sleep is so common.

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Consciousnesses, birth and death are common too.

Philosophers should be bothered by none of these things. I don't see why you find it so intriguing.
Stop thinking that your ego is separate from the rest of the world.
Some neurons in your brain shut off. They turn back on again.

The end.

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Originally Posted by tommo

Most people do not experience a continuity of consciousness IRL. They'll day dream constantly and not even pay attention to where they're driving because they're thinking about something else, they are not aware.
So no it's not indubitable.

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I'm not sure what you mean by consciousness but it's not what I mean. What I mean is simply the state of being conscious of something; experiencing something. It doesn't have to be a perception, like seeing a tree. When you're thinking or daydreaming, clearly you're not unconscious in the sense I am talking about. Your environment isn't within your attention, but that doesn't matter, your attention is focused on plenty of other things, like thoughts, memories, and imagined scenes.

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I'd also argue we're only slightly less conscious during normal dreams. Only slightly.
When dreaming we still make decisions etc. it's not a movie.
Even if we ourselves are not in the dream occasionally, we still choose to move "the camera" around and see what's happening etc.
The only thing we usually don't realise is that we are dreaming.

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I'm not talking about dreaming, I'm talking about sleeping... :/

You are conscious whilst you are dreaming, but the majority of the sleep cycle is dreamless.

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Consciousnesses, birth and death are common too.

Philosophers should be bothered by none of these things. I don't see why you find it so intriguing.

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Huh? Consciousness is a very popular topic in philosophy, throughout history and even moreso in contemporary philosophy. I don't see why it shouldn't be, it's probably the most inexplicable thing we know of and there are all sorts of problems associated with it.

When I say sleep is common, I mean it's something that's commonly experienced.

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Stop thinking that your ego is separate from the rest of the world.
Some neurons in your brain shut off. They turn back on again.

The end.

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Haha... no that's not how the brain works, there is not a 'you clump' of neurons deep inside your brain where your soul chills out, and which turns off when you're not conscious. It's kinda funny that in your first sentence you were so forcible about the ego being a separate entity, and then in the second you made the classic error of dualists.

I don't really know what it means for an 'ego to be separate from the rest of the world'. All I'm talking about is the state of experiencing things. You accept that such a state exists, right..? I guess it's separate from the world insofar as the state of your web browser software as either running or not is 'separate from the world'...

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Originally Posted by Xei

Haha... no that's not how the brain works, there is not a 'you clump' of neurons deep inside your brain where your soul chills out, and which turns off when you're not conscious. It's kinda funny that in your first sentence you were so forcible about the ego being a separate entity, and then in the second you made the classic error of dualists.

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If it's not neurons than what is it? Of course it's neurons that cause consciousness.
In my first sentence I did not say the ego is separate.
In my second I said nothing of dualism. I really don't know what you're talking about.

I did however tell you to stop thinking of your ego as a separate entity.

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Originally Posted by Xei

I don't really know what it means for an 'ego to be separate from the rest of the world'. All I'm talking about is the state of experiencing things. You accept that such a state exists, right..? I guess it's separate from the world insofar as the state of your web browser software as either running or not is 'separate from the world'...

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What I mean is you always assume consciousness is somehow different from other things. Do you think it's weird that a computer can just turn off and come back on with everything in tact?
Of course not. Consciousness is no different. You only think it is because you treat "you" as different, as somewhat removed from the rest of the universe, which is an egotistic phenomenon.

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Originally Posted by Xei

I'm not sure what you mean by consciousness but it's not what I mean. What I mean is simply the state of being conscious of something; experiencing something. It doesn't have to be a perception, like seeing a tree. When you're thinking or daydreaming, clearly you're not unconscious in the sense I am talking about. Your environment isn't within your attention, but that doesn't matter, your attention is focused on plenty of other things, like thoughts, memories, and imagined scenes.

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Ok.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Huh? Consciousness is a very popular topic in philosophy, throughout history and even moreso in contemporary philosophy. I don't see why it shouldn't be, it's probably the most inexplicable thing we know of and there are all sorts of problems associated with it.

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What are these problems and why is it inexplicable? Tell me exactly why consciousness is so special.

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Originally Posted by Xei

When I say sleep is common, I mean it's something that's commonly experienced.

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Yeah I know. Wasn't a serious point anyway.

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Originally Posted by Xei

Sleep freaks me out. It's like a voluntary period of death. Scratch that, it's a voluntary permament death. Your consciousness was destroyed last night; you only think you're the same person today because the physical neurons of that person's memories are still inside your head.

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Maybe that's all the concept of reincarnation really is. They say when you do good, you're next life will be better; do wrong, and you're reborn a lesser being. Rather than coming back as some sort of spiritual kangaroo or a dung beetle, maybe all it refers to is just that, you waking up or being "reborn" the next day. You work hard and have a good day today, and the next one is bound to be better (or more satisfying). ie. You're reborn as a higher being. But if you commit some foul deed, you're next day or "life" is obviously going to be worse (since by then the consequences and repercussions of your actions will have caught up with you).

Huh... either I've just solved one of life's great mysteries, or I'm a just a little too high. .-.