Arguing - When to stop being nice

Is it ever okay to be mean to the person you're arguing with? If so, under what circumstances and why?

Some people are almost always nice. Even while they're arguing, they'll act as nice and polite as possible. Before and after the criticisms, they'll insert some friendly points of agreement and make sure the opponents know they're still respected - no matter how stupid what they're saying is. This makes sense in a way. If people like you more, they'll feel less threatened, they'll be more likely to continue talking and might even be more willing to change their views.

On the other hand, I've heard the argument that some people need to be jolted out of their set beliefs with a bit of unfriendly criticism. When their beliefs are criticized too lightly and are decorated with compliments and points of agreement, they aren't as likely to seriously reconsider their beliefs. Instead, they'll dwell on the positive things and leave the arguments thinking they made new friends, that "I believe this and she believes that and we can accept our differences." Niceness only lightens the issues.

Furthermore, it's often easier to argue with a bit of maliciousness. It's sometimes easier to explain why someone is wrong by using some cheeky, mean joke, a metaphor or analogy, or simply by being blunt. For example, if you think the person is being overall irrational, is simply not using logic correctly, there is really no way to tell them that without sounding mean. So if someone is intent on remaining nice, things like that will remain unsaid.

If you are actually trying to convince anyone of anything, being mean is generally pointless. You can be blunt, direct, harsh and a lot of other things, without actually being [I]mean[/I

If you are actually trying to learn something, expand your horizons, possibly even open to changing your point of view, then being blunt, direct, etc. is generally a bad idea, because these qualities are usually closely tied with being on defense or offense, and it's very rare for any person, ever, to admit that the other party was right, in such situations, even if they deep down know they are wrong them selves. Don't put your self into a situation where you might have to admit defeat, because the mere fact that you have to admit defeat, means that you were not actually out to learn anything in the first place. You just wanted to tell other people that they are dumb, or convince them that you are right, either to cement your security in your own ideas, or simply because you like it when people believe what you say.

Don't say another Goddamn word. Up until now, I've been polite. If you say anything else - word one - I will kill myself. And when my tainted spirit finds its destination, I will topple the master of that dark place. From my black throne, I will lash together a machine of bone and blood, and fueled by my hatred for you this fear engine will bore a hole between this world and that one. When it begins, you will hear the sound of children screaming - as though from a great distance. A smoking orb of nothing will grow above your bed, and from it will emerge a thousand starving crows. As I slip through the widening maw in my new form, you will catch only a glimpse of my radiance before you are incinerated. Then as tears of bubbling pitch stream down my face, my dark work will begin. I will open one of my six mouths, and I will sing the song that ends the Earth.

Carousoul... That was beautiful :)

It's from Penny Arcade.

http://i.minus.com/i39YI0nPo7sz.jpg

Thank God for HP Lovecraft.

EDIT:

*Notices own avatar*

Oh.

When you're drunk.

It's okay to be mean to stupid people because you're better than them.

^^ i guess its ok for me to be mean to you.......idiot lol

You can tear an argument to shreds and use all kinds of hard hitting analogies without ever insulting the other person on a personal level. Ad hominem is worthless in the quest to make points about an issue. However, if the other person insults you personally, it's totally moral to insult that person. It just has nothing to do with winning the debate about the original issue, unless the original issue is what kind of person your opponent is.

You can tear an argument to shreds and use all kinds of hard hitting analogies without ever insulting the other person on a personal level. Ad hominem is worthless in the quest to make points about an issue other than the nature of the other person. However, if the other person insults you personally, it's totally moral to insult that person. It just has nothing to do with winning the debate about the original issue, unless the original issue is what kind of person your opponent is.

I am usually polite. Although as a passionate individual I sometimes let my points get a bit heated. Personally I largely see debate and argument, especially with someone who is steadfastly opposed to your point of view as pointless. I don't think anyone can ever "lose" and argument. Unless you actually convert the other person to your side, what have you achieved? Discussion with a neutral party is useful, but they are not putting up a fight, you're just telling them your point of view, and then letting them mull over it. The only purpose of debate that I really see is for two people who agree on the core issue, discussing amongst themselves the best way to move forward. Debate has no real purpose unless you agree on some things.

The amount of time I've spent in here(Extended Discussion) arguing in a loop more than illustrates that :)

The brain releases a chemical to make you go defensive when you feel like your ideas are being threatened. Conversely, when you feel like your ideas are being validated you release a chemical that makes you more open minded.

If you want to win an argument you have to understand that person's side of the issue. If you show understanding to them, they can show the same understanding back. If you attack, they will naturally shut off and narrow their minds.

But understanding is no fun. Especially when someone says something stupid.

Arguments.....If me and my gal arguing i might end up mad or something for a minute, but always end up laughing again to lighten the situation. Then when I laugh she laughs..Im rarely so serious anymore


Live, have fun, enjoy, die..

Generally I attempt to be neutral in tone in arguments (as in, neither too nice nor too mean). But if a person is arguing some really dumb case that is either just plain wrong or actually frightening (like "conscription is a good idea!" or "let's ban vaccines!"), then I tend to stop being nice. In a way, I can't help it.

If you are trying to convince them of something you will never win being mean. People just dig in and will stop listening to you.

I think a large part of it also is accepting people how they are

Sometimes you gotta just smile and let the person argue by themself..then they look crazy ha

If you're too mean, they will think you are stupid or stubborn. It leaves you with a bad feeling too, eventually you don't gain anything out from the argument other than negative emotions.

But sometimes if you're too nice, it feels like you aren't being truthful to yourself.

If what you are saying doesn't directly prove your point, then omit it from the argument. No insults, no exaggerations.

If they stop being civil (not nice, just civil. Being nice is just as pointless as being mean.), then stop the argument, since that is not how arguments are done.

Sometimes I foolishly engage in pissing contests with people who are obviously only interested in reinforcing an inflated ego. But my ego is inflated, too, so it makes sense I have trouble backing down from instigators.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

Sometimes I foolishly engage in pissing contests with people who are obviously only interested in reinforcing an inflated ego. But my ego is inflated, too, so it makes sense I have trouble backing down from instigators.

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I guess this is most people's natural response. Sometimes it's hard to overcome emotions with logic.

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Originally Posted by Jmanjordan

Carousoul... That was beautiful :)

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What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

mark my fucking words

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What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch?

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Originally Posted by Carôusoul

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

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u mad

I've seen that posted in the comments of YouTube videos. Annnd I really dont know how respond to that because its so stupid . :ppppp

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

The brain releases a chemical to make you go defensive when you feel like your ideas are being threatened. Conversely, when you feel like your ideas are being validated you release a chemical that makes you more open minded.

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Then I must truly be insane, because my beliefs have never been validated, yet I have always been very open minded. :panic:

for me, when someone becomes intimidating and usually i know when someone asks me stupid questions or playing with my head (manipulate).

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Originally Posted by blackbirdrising

Then I must truly be insane, because my beliefs have never been validated, yet I have always been very open minded. :panic:

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Perhaps you consider yourself open minded as a defense mechanism. If your beliefs are never validated how do you take criticism and improve your beliefs? Understanding other people's thoughts are vital as fuck toward evolving the psyche.

:-?


Understanding our own beliefs are as vital as understanding the beliefs of others. We all know how we feel but why we feel that way can lead to greater understanding of others and even a more open-minded approach to dealing with their beliefs, particularly when they conflict with our own.


As for arguing and being nice...as long as no one flings poo I can take the heat and the debate. Poo changes everything.

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Originally Posted by Original Poster

Perhaps you consider yourself open minded as a defense mechanism. If your beliefs are never validated how do you take criticism and improve your beliefs? Understanding other people's thoughts are vital as fuck toward evolving the psyche.

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Originally Posted by melanieb

:-?


Understanding our own beliefs are as vital as understanding the beliefs of others. We all know how we feel but why we feel that way can lead to greater understanding of others and even a more open-minded approach to dealing with their beliefs, particularly when they conflict with our own.


As for arguing and being nice...as long as no one flings poo I can take the heat and the debate. Poo changes everything.

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These pretty much sums up a practical solution to the whole purpose of the thread. /thread

I usually stop being nice as soon as they mention something personnal or related to my family/friends.

I am in the process of mending the damage to my self-esteem inflicted by spending almost a year on an online forum which took the no rudeness, no arguments, and let's be sure to keep this general audience to an extreme. When people say that a conversation needs to remain nice, and then one gets warnings from moderators, after a while one begins to practice self-censorship, after a while one begins to question that maybe one is not a nice enough person, what's wrong with me that I cannot follow such simple rules of politeness. When one's conversations are forced into corsets, after a while all one can think of is a desire to wear a bicini. One seeks out the baddest of the bad boys, to find like minded people to bitch with, and then one wants to punish oneself for doing so. (Notice: I used the word bitch in that sentence - I am trying to break free here.)

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

I am in the process of mending the damage to my self-esteem inflicted by spending almost a year on an online forum which took the no rudeness, no arguments, and let's be sure to keep this general audience to an extreme. When people say that a conversation needs to remain nice, and then one gets warnings from moderators, after a while one begins to practice self-censorship, after a while one begins to question that maybe one is not a nice enough person, what's wrong with me that I cannot follow such simple rules of politeness. When one's conversations are forced into corsets, after a while all one can think of is a desire to wear a bicini. One seeks out the baddest of the bad boys, to find like minded people to bitch with, and then one wants to punish oneself for doing so. (Notice: I used the word bitch in that sentence - I am trying to break free here.)

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How dare you. You're banned. Report to the principal's office to sign papers.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

How dare you. You're banned. Report to the principal's office to sign papers.

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I refuse to be banned!

Besides, if you banned me, I would haunt you in your dreams. Your subconscious would be so troubled, and your conscious mind may think that this is nonsense, but your subconscious is irrational, so in your non-lucid dreams there I would be, always bugging you and saying "All I wanted was an online forum just to chill and decompress and be myself or whoever I choose to be. Is that so wrong?" Do you really want to risk that? Much safer not to ban me.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...eekBar1FTW.gif

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

I refuse to be banned!

Besides, if you banned me, I would haunt you in your dreams. Your subconscious would be so troubled, and your conscious mind may think that this is nonsense, but your subconscious is irrational, so in your non-lucid dreams there I would be, always bugging you and saying "All I wanted was an online forum just to chill and decompress and be myself or whoever I choose to be. Is that so wrong?" Do you really want to risk that? Much safer not to ban me.

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If you try to haunt me in my dreams, prepare to deal with forces in the network of consciousness that you have never even read about. You will never forget what you see in my mind, and my mind will never forget you or the location of your consciousness in the multiverse. It will inform the others. I have one body but many minds, and you will serve us all for eternity if you betray us. We know who you are, and we are expecting you.

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Originally Posted by Universal Mind

If you try to haunt me in my dreams, prepare to deal with forces in the network of consciousness that you have never even read about. You will never forget what you see in my mind, and my mind will never forget you or the location of your consciousness in the multiverse. It will inform the others. I have one body but many minds, and you will serve us all for eternity if you betray us. We know who you are, and we are expecting you.

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JoannaB slowly backs away to look for a safer thread.

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Originally Posted by JoannaB

JoannaB slowly backs away to look for a safer thread.

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I meant it in a good way. Let's go get ice cream.

Oh in that case, I was just kidding about backing away. :)